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Who is Responsible for Gear-Based Progression?
lifesbrink
Member UncommonPosts: 553
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Comments
Dungeons and Dragons the board game.
Never trust a screenshot or a youtube video without a version stamp!
Someone that really needed to find a way for players to keep playing and paying for subs. Oh wait... wasn't it Diablo back in 1996 or I really need someone sleep?
edit: I did play Diablo in '87 but I can't remember anything about the game.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
This is probably the bases for any fantasy mmorpg .
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Which FF Character Are You?
D&D, MUDs.
I don't remember any emphasis on gear in any of the DnD board games. Is there one in particular you are referring to?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Gear progression goes back further then EQ. Like almost every invention throughout history various unassociated sources are probably responsible starting with offline games and working its way into online games and growing from there. I doubt you will find one single source in which gear progression was invented.
And, as others have said MUDs played a large role in modern mmo's and probably played a role in gear progression idea's. Lots of the early MMOs were inspired by MUDS that the devs had played.
One could argue there was gear progression in ultima online even. Certainly by the time Everquest and Asherons call were released gear progression was common place...
EQ was the first mmo to have raids
raids are more of a gear check than anything i know
EQ2 fan sites
The gear-dependency is a result of wide disparity in the level and skill system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yep. Gear progression is a constant, from paper and pencil gaming to today. Even if it's simply daggers-short swords-swords-bastard swords.
Paper and pencil D+D had a wide range of power from start to finish. Even back in those days, before computer games, there were other games that tried to reduce that power gap because it just didn't make sense. Still, D+D started with only 20 levels. Same problem, players wanted to continue the level content, and more ways of continuing improvement were added. Started with simply more HPs at a lower rate, eventually more levels.
DIKU text based came along and added to it. The EQ in the graphical games added also. They not only added the levels (beyond D+D's 20 level limit at the start), they added more gear levels and anything for 'dings' to add excitement in the system, making it the overwhelming thing to play for. Dings and gear.
I'll leave it to you all to decide for yourselves if that's what you really want to play for in your MMORPGs.
Once upon a time....
I would say not D&D table top, becouse in table top it all depends on your DM, some did not even use magic items, others made you work your butt off for that "+1 knife of skinning", others handed out "+6 vorpal sword of insta-death and gem crafting" like they where ants at a picnic, but the game itself just gave rules for how the world could work and how your charater would advance. In most cases you could win/servive with out anything due to your skills (most table top games where/are like that).
Gear progression pre-dates the modern fantasy genre all the way back to its origin: The Lord of The Rings.
Tolkien basically created the modern fantasy genre which D&D was based on and subsequently everything else. The characters typically gained in strength by finding powerful weapons or artifacts and using them to overcome their obstacles.
The hobbits set out with nothing, acquire regular weapons, they learn some basic fighting skills. Then Frodo is stabbed and rushed to Elrond's where Bilbo gives him a Mithril chest piece and Sting. Later on they encounter Galadriel who hooks up each party member with powerful goodies.
Legolas upgrades his Mirkwood Bow to The Bow of Galadhrim.
Aragorn acquires the reforged Narsil.
Gandalf is reborn as Gandalf the White (he got new epic robes!).
legendary weapons/ artifacts / transformations have been around forever
what the Op is referring to gear being the *only* thing that matters to progress
EQ2 fan sites
If players today had to get by with those meager things, they'd sheet breecks.
Once upon a time....
Video games that push you to get better gear to advance go way back. The earliest examples that I can think of off hand are Metroid and The Legend of Zelda (both 1986), neither of which have experience levels. There are probably earlier examples that didn't come to mind, too.
In Lord of the Rings, (IMO) Gear where just tools, and most of the time lost before the climax of the story, and now needed to win.
Gandalf was reserected, in clean robes, lol.
I miss twinking my level 1 toons with fbss and fungi cocered tunic amd best part is they was no bop or even boe so you could transfer them.ah good old days.
There are four types of MMO players, they are Killers, Achievers, Socializers, & Explorers. Gear Progression is for Achievers & some may say Socializers. Heck an argument can be devised that GP adds flavor to all four play styles.
Achievers want the next and best. Explorers like to find stuff. Socializers like to show off, brag, and relive great adventures. Killers like anything that makes them better killers.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
What started it (IMO) are computer RPGs.
You see, when you no longer had the freedom of table top with a GM or DM to make the call on "can I do this?" (any thing that was creative and not covered by the rules), they played on our greed in steed replacing the freedom with gear.
If you look at books most heros did not depend on gear, Conan had a fear/hate of magic, Tarizan had apes etc.
They just relied on skills, and any items (in most cases where for plot, not power.
Everquest was the first.
You'd know this if you had to deal with Planes of Power expansion for EQ. You had to do "Gear Progression" from previous raid zones to even attempt the latter ones. I personally believe this is what destroyed Everquest, and why PoP is known as the worst expansion in the history of EQ.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Really simpel answer, it was an asshole.
Let's hope that GW2 will hand him up to himself
Diablow 3, it sucks ...
offtopic
but Gates of Discord was the expansion where many guilds and players were leaving Everquest
SOE created "Player summits" to bring them back
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_Gates_of_Discord
The introduction of this expansion in early 2004 was beset by numerous serious quality issues. John Smedley, President of Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) has described the release of this expansion as "SOE's worst mistake in five years".[1]
in response to player criticism, SOE organized a summit in the summer of 2004 to hear the main concerns of the playerbase towards Gates of Discord and EverQuest in general.[1] The summit's guests included influential players and gamers from guild leaderships and fan websites, notably among them Hearn (of GU Comics). SOE also delayed the release the next expansion Omens of War by several months to give time for the GoD quality issues to be addressed.[3]
EQ2 fan sites
Getting better gear (the sword of epicness, the staff of omg, the armor of pwn) is interwined with the fantasy genre as a whole. (As someone already mentioned with the Lord of teh Rings). MMO's merely streamlined and expanded what was already part of single player RPG's in the late 90's. Look at the early FF series, or the early dragonquest series, or the Chrono series... it's all there! Even skilling up with different weapons, mix-matching different skills, needing to get materials from a rare boss dragon to build your ultima weapon, etc. etc.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
Logic is responsible.
You have a game with bosses and they need to reward something which meaningfully makes players stronger. Directly awarding new abilities or stat upgrades is really arbitrary and weird. Rewarding an actual item you put on your actual character is much less weird (the only weirdness lies in the fact that a sword is making you stronger.)
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