Originally posted by lizardbonesThe very best sandbox game is Eve, and it can barely fund another game. Development had to be cut back on WoD because there's not enough money to cover it.
Seriously? You haven't heard of Dust514? They're not a huge dev and realized they were stretching themselves too thin fully funding THREE games, so they scaled back on one of them. The way you put it is disingenuous at best, as they say.
If you need to imply that EVE hasn't done well to make your point, you might want to rethink your position.
DOH! Totally forgot about Dust 514. Probably because it's for the PS3.
I wasn't implying that Eve isn't doing well. If Eve were operating in a vacuum, it would be doing very well. It's not doing so well compared to games in the theme park market. The very best of the best sandbox MMORPG running is marginal compared to Rift investment wise. It doesn't have a super great lead over cr@ppy games like CO and STO.
It's not that the sandbox MMORPG market is tiny or nonexistent, it's that it is too small to compete with the theme park MMORPG market for investment dollars.
** edit ** As Jaedor points out below, the 'sandbox market' is also split into even smaller markets making it even less competitive.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
At 68 pages, I'm with the OP. However, I think any discussion on this topic needs to distinguish between PvE sandbox and PvP sandbox.
There are some very vocal players out there looking for a sandbox with world PvP. But imo, only other PvPers will play that game. Eve is a prime example of what a good PvP sandbox game is like once it is established. And no PvEers stay there for very long.
A vocal and persistent minority is not a "massive" sandbox crowd.
WoW bleeding subs and will bleed more when GW2 comes out.
Aion F2P because of epic loss of subs.
LOTRO F2P because of epic loss of subs.
Rift has what 6 servers left.
SWTOR is merging and losing subs left and right.
EvE online (gaining subs) year after year.
Perhaps someone should explain the concept of staying power VS a flash in the pan and which makes more money to the companies. Its quite obvious these games loosing steam. Its time for a different kind of themepark or a different kind of game altogether.
Originally posted by RoyalPhunk WoW bleeding subs and will bleed more when GW2 comes out.Aion F2P because of epic loss of subs.LOTRO F2P because of epic loss of subs.Rift has what 6 servers left.SWTOR is merging and losing subs left and right.EvE online (gaining subs) year after year.Perhaps someone should explain the concept of staying power VS a flash in the pan and which makes more money to the companies. Its quite obvious these games loosing steam. Its time for a different kind of themepark or a different kind of game altogether.
It's pretty obvious what makes more money and it's not Eve. Again, I'm not saying Eve is doing poorly. But...when it comes to straight up money, the games you listed, however big their fails otherwise, have won.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by RoyalPhunk WoW bleeding subs and will bleed more when GW2 comes out.
Aion F2P because of epic loss of subs.
LOTRO F2P because of epic loss of subs.
Rift has what 6 servers left.
SWTOR is merging and losing subs left and right.
EvE online (gaining subs) year after year.
Perhaps someone should explain the concept of staying power VS a flash in the pan and which makes more money to the companies. Its quite obvious these games loosing steam. Its time for a different kind of themepark or a different kind of game altogether.
It's pretty obvious what makes more money and it's not Eve. Again, I'm not saying Eve is doing poorly. But...when it comes to straight up money, the games you listed, however big their fails otherwise, have won.
I am talking about history, stuff that has happened or is happening now. You are stating opinion. I hope you won't feel bad if I don't just take your word for it. ; )
Originally posted by RoyalPhunk WoW bleeding subs and will bleed more when GW2 comes out.
Aion F2P because of epic loss of subs.
LOTRO F2P because of epic loss of subs.
Rift has what 6 servers left.
SWTOR is merging and losing subs left and right.
EvE online (gaining subs) year after year.
Perhaps someone should explain the concept of staying power VS a flash in the pan and which makes more money to the companies. Its quite obvious these games loosing steam. Its time for a different kind of themepark or a different kind of game altogether.
It's pretty obvious what makes more money and it's not Eve. Again, I'm not saying Eve is doing poorly. But...when it comes to straight up money, the games you listed, however big their fails otherwise, have won.
I'd love to see how you came to that conclusion with any of those games other than WoW...
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Originally posted by RoyalPhunkWoW bleeding subs and will bleed more when GW2 comes out.Aion F2P because of epic loss of subs.LOTRO F2P because of epic loss of subs.Rift has what 6 servers left.SWTOR is merging and losing subs left and right.EvE online (gaining subs) year after year.Perhaps someone should explain the concept of staying power VS a flash in the pan and which makes more money to the companies. Its quite obvious these games loosing steam. Its time for a different kind of themepark or a different kind of game altogether.
It's pretty obvious what makes more money and it's not Eve. Again, I'm not saying Eve is doing poorly. But...when it comes to straight up money, the games you listed, however big their fails otherwise, have won.
I'd love to see how you came to that conclusion with any of those games other than WoW...
If Eve demonstrated that it was making more money than the competition, then there would be copies. At least one copy not done by 10 guys in Hungary.
If Eve demonstrated that it was making even the same money, over a shorter period of time, then there would be copies. Again, at least one copy not done by 10 guys from Hungary.
Rift has financed the development of two MMO games. One is an RTS and one is an FPS.
LoTR is reportedly profitable, enough so that Turbine keeps making expansions.
Honestly not sure about Aion. To me, it's kind of like WarHammer...but with different graphics. WarHammer, btw, is profitable enough to keep running. Amazing, I know, but it keeps running and they keep charging money for it.
With SWToR, it's too soon to tell to be honest. Will it make money? Will it bring development of other MMORPG from Bioware? I don't know. It doesn't look like it to me. They are reporting profits though, so yeah, it's profitable.
I am not saying Eve isn't doing well. It's just not doing as well compared to other theme park games. Remember, Eve is the Best of the Best, Top of the Line, Nothing Is Better sandbox game. Numbers wise, it's good, just not the best overall for MMORPG. Even ignoring WoW, it's not.
** edit ** It's even worse if you look at the entire market for MMORPG in the 'West'. There is exactly one financially successful sandbox game and that's it. There is more than one financially successful theme park game, and it didn't take any of those games 12+ years to make money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by RoyalPhunkWoW bleeding subs and will bleed more when GW2 comes out.Aion F2P because of epic loss of subs.LOTRO F2P because of epic loss of subs.Rift has what 6 servers left.SWTOR is merging and losing subs left and right.EvE online (gaining subs) year after year.Perhaps someone should explain the concept of staying power VS a flash in the pan and which makes more money to the companies. Its quite obvious these games loosing steam. Its time for a different kind of themepark or a different kind of game altogether.
It's pretty obvious what makes more money and it's not Eve. Again, I'm not saying Eve is doing poorly. But...when it comes to straight up money, the games you listed, however big their fails otherwise, have won.
I'd love to see how you came to that conclusion with any of those games other than WoW...
If Eve demonstrated that it was making more money than the competition, then there would be copies. At least one copy not done by 10 guys in Hungary.
If Eve demonstrated that it was making even the same money, over a shorter period of time, then there would be copies. Again, at least one copy not done by 10 guys from Hungary.
Rift has financed the development of two MMO games. One is an RTS and one is an FPS.
LoTR is reportedly profitable, enough so that Turbine keeps making expansions.
Honestly not sure about Aion. To me, it's kind of like WarHammer...but with different graphics. WarHammer, btw, is profitable enough to keep running. Amazing, I know, but it keeps running and they keep charging money for it.
With SWToR, it's too soon to tell to be honest. Will it make money? Will it bring development of other MMORPG from Bioware? I don't know. It doesn't look like it to me. They are reporting profits though, so yeah, it's profitable.
I am not saying Eve isn't doing well. It's just not doing as well compared to other theme park games. Remember, Eve is the Best of the Best, Top of the Line, Nothing Is Better sandbox game. Numbers wise, it's good, just not the best overall for MMORPG. Even ignoring WoW, it's not.
** edit ** It's even worse if you look at the entire market for MMORPG in the 'West'. There is exactly one financially successful sandbox game and that's it. There is more than one financially successful theme park game, and it didn't take any of those games 12+ years to make money.
Ohhhh, boy. I think I will just leave this one alone and go for lunch instead.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
In all the history of MMOs there have been only three P2P AAA Sandbox MMOrpg: Ultima Online - 1997 Star Wars Galaxies - 2003 to 2005 (2005 to 2011 is imho not a AAA rated MMOrpg) EVE Online - 2003
Also there is this RMT Social Sandbox MMO Plattform called Second Life: Second Life - 2003
And the RMT based SciFi virtual world simulation MMO: Entropia Universe - 2003
Number of Accounts: Second Life - 800k - growing Entropia Universe - 740k - ? EVE Online - 360k - growing Ultima Online - 100k peaked around 250k SWG - closed - peaked 2003/4 around 250 to 300k pre NGE (Data is from mmodata.net and for EU from Wikipedia)
Since then there was no attempt to deliver an AAA Sandbox MMOG. 4 of these Sandbox MMOs be still alive and make money and 3 show no sign of loosing subs instead we know that 2 still grow.
These be around 2 million Accounts that "play" these MMOGs that be 8 years and older - 3 of these MMOGs were even unaffected by the WOW release.
How many Themepark MMOGs have been fared that well?
SWTOR peaked at 1700k and is down in a few months to 1000k and shrinking. Rift peaked at 600k and is down to 250k in a few months. AOC peaked at 700k and down to 100k in a few months. Warhammer peaked at 880k down to 100k in a few months. EQ2 peaked at 325k and is down to 120k never living up the expectations. The most successful post WOW mmo longterm was Lotro that badly missed any high numbers but had a stable player base since many years around 250k.
Probably investors have spend half a billion dollars into the development of these AAA Themeparks and what is the ROI ???
What is the ROI of 8 to 15 years old sandboxes with numbers as mentioned above?
Do you really think that it would be probably less successfull to step into a market where the competition is 8 to 15 years old or Non-AAA while in the Temepark category both AAA and Non-AAA MMOG tank every other month?
You have NOT count it correctly, since you are ignoring a lot of the F2P MMOs and there are a lot more themepark than that on your list.
This is 2010 numbers, so probably will be higher now. There are 47.5M Americans play MMO (most play F2P). I will use your numbers ... 2M accounts who play these sandbox.
That is less than 5% of the market. No wonder developers are ignoring it. Surely the themepark route is more competitve, but at least there is a big market out there.
Theres just no sandbox outthere with quality like WoW or TERA etc,but eve,but eve have a peculiar style its just space ships game and its hard to find someone who likes this style...
We will have to recount after archeage release
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys FH1942 best tanker for 4years Playing WWII OL for some years untill now many other for some months
Sandbox fans could always play The SIms, its pretty much what you all want without the PvP. Archage seems like it going to be like that, just with anime style and giant swords.
In all the history of MMOs there have been only three P2P AAA Sandbox MMOrpg: Ultima Online - 1997 Star Wars Galaxies - 2003 to 2005 (2005 to 2011 is imho not a AAA rated MMOrpg) EVE Online - 2003
Also there is this RMT Social Sandbox MMO Plattform called Second Life: Second Life - 2003
And the RMT based SciFi virtual world simulation MMO: Entropia Universe - 2003
Number of Accounts: Second Life - 800k - growing Entropia Universe - 740k - ? EVE Online - 360k - growing Ultima Online - 100k peaked around 250k SWG - closed - peaked 2003/4 around 250 to 300k pre NGE (Data is from mmodata.net and for EU from Wikipedia)
Since then there was no attempt to deliver an AAA Sandbox MMOG. 4 of these Sandbox MMOs be still alive and make money and 3 show no sign of loosing subs instead we know that 2 still grow.
These be around 2 million Accounts that "play" these MMOGs that be 8 years and older - 3 of these MMOGs were even unaffected by the WOW release.
How many Themepark MMOGs have been fared that well?
SWTOR peaked at 1700k and is down in a few months to 1000k and shrinking. Rift peaked at 600k and is down to 250k in a few months. AOC peaked at 700k and down to 100k in a few months. Warhammer peaked at 880k down to 100k in a few months. EQ2 peaked at 325k and is down to 120k never living up the expectations. The most successful post WOW mmo longterm was Lotro that badly missed any high numbers but had a stable player base since many years around 250k.
Probably investors have spend half a billion dollars into the development of these AAA Themeparks and what is the ROI ???
What is the ROI of 8 to 15 years old sandboxes with numbers as mentioned above?
Do you really think that it would be probably less successfull to step into a market where the competition is 8 to 15 years old or Non-AAA while in the Temepark category both AAA and Non-AAA MMOG tank every other month?
You have NOT count it correctly, since you are ignoring a lot of the F2P MMOs and there are a lot more themepark than that on your list.
This is 2010 numbers, so probably will be higher now. There are 47.5M Americans play MMO (most play F2P). I will use your numbers ... 2M accounts who play these sandbox.
That is less than 5% of the market. No wonder developers are ignoring it. Surely the themepark route is more competitve, but at least there is a big market out there.
Yea, and all last week you said WoW was a sandbox, that must really mess with these numbers
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Sandbox fans could always play The SIms, its pretty much what you all want without the PvP. Archage seems like it going to be like that, just with anime style and giant swords.
They have Sims fantasy out now, with dungeons/monsters, and high fantasy race settings?
Sandbox fans could always play The SIms, its pretty much what you all want without the PvP. Archage seems like it going to be like that, just with anime style and giant swords.
Gaming in general is pretty bland without pvp. Also, single player games would be superior to mmorpg games except for the possibility of pvp.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Originally posted by BigHatLogan How many SWTOR's will it take before people realize that themeparks are boring and developers realize that they can't make money cloning WoW?
When they actually stop making money cloning WoW. Investors are agnostic in regards to sandboxes and theme parks. I am reasonably sure they do not care one way or the other. The only thing they care about is what makes money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
In all the history of MMOs there have been only three P2P AAA Sandbox MMOrpg: Ultima Online - 1997 Star Wars Galaxies - 2003 to 2005 (2005 to 2011 is imho not a AAA rated MMOrpg) EVE Online - 2003
Also there is this RMT Social Sandbox MMO Plattform called Second Life: Second Life - 2003
And the RMT based SciFi virtual world simulation MMO: Entropia Universe - 2003
Number of Accounts: Second Life - 800k - growing Entropia Universe - 740k - ? EVE Online - 360k - growing Ultima Online - 100k peaked around 250k SWG - closed - peaked 2003/4 around 250 to 300k pre NGE (Data is from mmodata.net and for EU from Wikipedia)
Since then there was no attempt to deliver an AAA Sandbox MMOG. 4 of these Sandbox MMOs be still alive and make money and 3 show no sign of loosing subs instead we know that 2 still grow.
These be around 2 million Accounts that "play" these MMOGs that be 8 years and older - 3 of these MMOGs were even unaffected by the WOW release.
How many Themepark MMOGs have been fared that well?
SWTOR peaked at 1700k and is down in a few months to 1000k and shrinking. Rift peaked at 600k and is down to 250k in a few months. AOC peaked at 700k and down to 100k in a few months. Warhammer peaked at 880k down to 100k in a few months. EQ2 peaked at 325k and is down to 120k never living up the expectations. The most successful post WOW mmo longterm was Lotro that badly missed any high numbers but had a stable player base since many years around 250k.
Probably investors have spend half a billion dollars into the development of these AAA Themeparks and what is the ROI ???
What is the ROI of 8 to 15 years old sandboxes with numbers as mentioned above?
Do you really think that it would be probably less successfull to step into a market where the competition is 8 to 15 years old or Non-AAA while in the Temepark category both AAA and Non-AAA MMOG tank every other month?
You have NOT count it correctly, since you are ignoring a lot of the F2P MMOs and there are a lot more themepark than that on your list.
This is 2010 numbers, so probably will be higher now. There are 47.5M Americans play MMO (most play F2P). I will use your numbers ... 2M accounts who play these sandbox.
That is less than 5% of the market. No wonder developers are ignoring it. Surely the themepark route is more competitve, but at least there is a big market out there.
Yea, and all last week you said WoW was a sandbox, that must really mess with these numbers
Nah .. I didn't say that. Ii said "If Skyrim is a sandbox, then WOW is also one". You note the difference in logic?
Sandbox fans could always play The SIms, its pretty much what you all want without the PvP. Archage seems like it going to be like that, just with anime style and giant swords.
Gaming in general is pretty bland without pvp. Also, single player games would be superior to mmorpg games except for the possibility of pvp.
?? Nah. Batman Akham City is a great game. The first Dead Space is a great game. Diablo 3 is a great game. (there are many more examples) Pvp NOT needed.
Not it doesn't. EVE is a very, very unique type of game. I love sandboxes, but don't like EVE. Too complicated (i like compex but not this much), my characters a ship, etc, etc. I don't think it's a bad game at all, just not for me. Also, 400k isn't a huge success. EVE is very special game where most of the "scape" it's made of is an empty void. It's even all in 1 server. How do you know that the players playing EVE like sandboxes at all? What if they just like space ships and complex styles of games and they don't care for traditional mmorpg fantasy sandboxes like AA, MO, DF, etc?
EVE isn't about themeparl or sandbox. It's in a special league of it's on.
It's intersting that when I tried to point out that EVE isn't bigger then it is, or growing faster then it is, is because you play a spaceship a bunch of people told me I was wrong.
Yet, if you read through all the responces in this thread you see the exact same thing repeated over and over.
People saying they want to play a sandbox, but they don't want to play EVE because you're a ship.
It's alos interesting that no matter how many times people point out that EVE is one of the very few PAY TO PLAY mmo's that has seen continual growth year in and year out, the anti-sandbox guys keep harping, yeah but it's got fewer subs then all the themeparks so it obviously doesn't work.
EVE is ONLY ONE game. ONE game. Even people who don't like EVE or sandboxes keep saying the same exact thing, IT'S THE ONLY GOOD SANDBOX OUT. It's not just a single game, it wold appear that there is a unified concensus that it's the only worthwhile sandbox mmo on the market at that!
Some of you are comparing the subscription numbers OF A SINGLE GAME, to the sub numbers of ALL THE THEMEPARKS. Guess what? Ford sells fewer cars then every other car company in the wold! << This is the arguement some of you keep using!
On a GAME BY GAME basis, EVE HAS MORE SUBS then most of the themeparks put out. IT HAS MORE SUBS, then DDO did before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then AoC before it want FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then EQ2 before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then STO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then CO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then LoTRO before it went FREE TO PLAY. It will probably have more subs then ToR by the time it goes free to play.
EVE is doing what all these themeparks have been incapable of doing. GROWING. You can combine all the themeparks together all you want, you can not ignore the one fact that remains, EVE CONTINUES TO GROW WHILE EACH THEMEPARK THAT RELEASES CONTINUALLY LOSES SUBSCRIBERS AND THEN SWITCHES TO FREE TO PLAY.
List the subscription based themepark mmo's that continually grow, year after year. WoW is NOT on that list today. Name them!
Originally posted by Uhwop Originally posted by FredomSekerZ
Not it doesn't. EVE is a very, very unique type of game. I love sandboxes, but don't like EVE. Too complicated (i like compex but not this much), my characters a ship, etc, etc. I don't think it's a bad game at all, just not for me. Also, 400k isn't a huge success. EVE is very special game where most of the "scape" it's made of is an empty void. It's even all in 1 server. How do you know that the players playing EVE like sandboxes at all? What if they just like space ships and complex styles of games and they don't care for traditional mmorpg fantasy sandboxes like AA, MO, DF, etc?EVE isn't about themeparl or sandbox. It's in a special league of it's on. It's intersting that when I tried to point out that EVE isn't bigger then it is, or growing faster then it is, is because you play a spaceship a bunch of people told me I was wrong.
Yet, if you read through all the responces in this thread you see the exact same thing repeated over and over.
People saying they want to play a sandbox, but they don't want to play EVE because you're a ship.
It's alos interesting that no matter how many times people point out that EVE is one of the very few PAY TO PLAY mmo's that has seen continual growth year in and year out, the anti-sandbox guys keep harping, yeah but it's got fewer subs then all the themeparks so it obviously doesn't work.
EVE is ONLY ONE game. ONE game. Even people who don't like EVE or sandboxes keep saying the same exact thing, IT'S THE ONLY GOOD SANDBOX OUT. It's not just a single game, it wold appear that there is a unified concensus that it's the only worthwhile sandbox mmo on the market at that!
Some of you are comparing the subscription numbers OF A SINGLE GAME, to the sub numbers of ALL THE THEMEPARKS. Guess what? Ford sells fewer cars then every other car company in the wold! << This is the arguement some of you keep using!On a GAME BY GAME basis, EVE HAS MORE SUBS then most of the themeparks put out. IT HAS MORE SUBS, then DDO did before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then AoC before it want FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then EQ2 before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then STO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then CO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then LoTRO before it went FREE TO PLAY. It will probably have more subs then ToR by the time it goes free to play.
EVE is doing what all these themeparks have been incapable of doing. GROWING. You can combine all the themeparks together all you want, you can not ignore the one fact that remains, EVE CONTINUES TO GROW WHILE EACH THEMEPARK THAT RELEASES CONTINUALLY LOSES SUBSCRIBERS AND THEN SWITCHES TO FREE TO PLAY.
List the subscription based themepark mmo's that continually grow, year after year. WoW is NOT on that list today. Name them!
If you put all the other sandbox games that aren't Eve together, you'd probably have a tenth of the players compared to Eve. That's why it's the only example used...it's the only sandbox game example that's even close to relevant any longer.
Yes, Eve is growing, but it took a lot of years to get there. People looking to put money into games aren't going to wait 12+ years for a game to break even and finally grow to be profitable. Not when they can get a big kick at launch, and then get what amounts to free money for years because the game is paid off.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
EVE is doing what all these themeparks have been incapable of doing. GROWING. You can combine all the themeparks together all you want, you can not ignore the one fact that remains, EVE CONTINUES TO GROW WHILE EACH THEMEPARK THAT RELEASES CONTINUALLY LOSES SUBSCRIBERS AND THEN SWITCHES TO FREE TO PLAY.
List the subscription based themepark mmo's that continually grow, year after year. WoW is NOT on that list today. Name them!
So what if Eve is growing? A small game growing is still a small game.
And themepark has hit a saturation point. If Eve has 10M players (which it probably will not forever), it will stop growing too. There are more than 47M MMO players in just the US, of course the grow-rate has slowed or stopped.
Lastly, if you like themepark, there are many to choose from. There are no need to be loyal. So even if the market is growing, given so much competition, individual games may not. And competition is a GOOD thing.
EVE is doing what all these themeparks have been incapable of doing. GROWING. You can combine all the themeparks together all you want, you can not ignore the one fact that remains, EVE CONTINUES TO GROW WHILE EACH THEMEPARK THAT RELEASES CONTINUALLY LOSES SUBSCRIBERS AND THEN SWITCHES TO FREE TO PLAY.
List the subscription based themepark mmo's that continually grow, year after year. WoW is NOT on that list today. Name them!
So what if Eve is growing? A small game growing is still a small game.
And themepark has hit a saturation point. If Eve has 10M players (which it probably will not forever), it will stop growing too. There are more than 47M MMO players in just the US, of course the grow-rate has slowed or stopped.
Lastly, if you like themepark, there are many to choose from. There are no need to be loyal. So even if the market is growing, given so much competition, individual games may not. And competition is a GOOD thing.
And again.
EVE is growing as a sub based game, themeparks are not. You guys keep ignoring this. It doesn't matter if it's only one compared to all the themeparks. It doesn't mater if there are 47m themepark players. IT"S GROWING in an industry that is seeing themeparks lose subs and switching to the F2P model.
If what the market demanded was more themeparks, they wouldn't keep losing subs after release, at least one would continue to grow, but one isn't unless they stop charging people to play it. You may consider that an insignificant fact, but it's not.
There is NO LONG TERM GROWTH in the themepark market anymore, but a sandbox mmo that puts you in the role of a ship grows. That's significant. If it wasn't spaceships, if they released a walking in stations feature that actually provided gameplay options EVE would probably explode.
I'm giving you an example of a game that is by all definition other then sandbox a niche game, yet keeps growing, and the so called mainstream style can't seem to put out a game that can do the same. And here you are saying there is no market worth tapping into. Pardon me, but all of the evidence available says that themeparks are only good to attract quick sales and then go F2P.
THE THEMEPARK CROWD ONLY HAS THEMEPARKS TO PLAY!! You're ignoring that in favor of cherry picking aspects of a whole. There is no AAA sandbox in a fantasy setting that can pointed at and used as evidence that it doesn't work, IT'S NOT BEEN DONE! UO is not an example, it's ancient. SWG isn't example, it had a multitude of problems that weren't associated with the sandbox part of the game. MO and DF aren't examples, they're independant games that most people don't even consider to be good, and being sandbox isn't the reason for that.
Show us a AAA sandbox MMO that doesn't work! Developer fears, and that's what is, isn't eveidence. They aren't making them because there isn't a market, they're not making them because they're afraid to take a chance. Just like every other studio was afraid to try it before WoW. Blizzard made an MMO, showed it was possible to make one, and then every other tom, dick, and hairy has been trying to emulate Blizzard.
If WoW was a sandbox, we'd be having an entirely diffierent conversation, that's a fact.
Aren't you forgetting now that CCP had funding problems this summer? On top of that their years of neglect of Eve finally caught up with them and they saw a decline in subs this last fall. Made them make those panicky declarations that they will do better in the future etc.
Its not a bed of roses on the sandbox side either. And it is just one game like you said. Who is to say that it isn't just a freak of nature? Time and time again themeparks have showed higher sub numbers consistently. You're grasping at straws with that growth thing. You have nothing else so you keep repeating it over and over.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
EVE is doing what all these themeparks have been incapable of doing. GROWING. You can combine all the themeparks together all you want, you can not ignore the one fact that remains, EVE CONTINUES TO GROW WHILE EACH THEMEPARK THAT RELEASES CONTINUALLY LOSES SUBSCRIBERS AND THEN SWITCHES TO FREE TO PLAY.
List the subscription based themepark mmo's that continually grow, year after year. WoW is NOT on that list today. Name them!
So what if Eve is growing? A small game growing is still a small game.
And themepark has hit a saturation point. If Eve has 10M players (which it probably will not forever), it will stop growing too. There are more than 47M MMO players in just the US, of course the grow-rate has slowed or stopped.
Lastly, if you like themepark, there are many to choose from. There are no need to be loyal. So even if the market is growing, given so much competition, individual games may not. And competition is a GOOD thing.
If you are in favor of competition, then you should be in favor of an AAA sandbox games being developed so that we can get more diverse gameplay in an MMO market currently saturated with themepark clones of a certain game that shall remain unnamed. Competition is good. I agree with that statement. I hope ArcheAge kicks everyone in the ass so that we can spark some kind of innovation in an otherwise stagnant genre.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Aren't you forgetting now that CCP had funding problems this summer? On top of that their years of neglect of Eve finally caught up with them and they saw a decline in subs this last fall. Made them make those panicky declarations that they will do better in the future etc.
Its not a bed of roses on the sandbox side either. And it is just one game like you said. Who is to say that it isn't just a freak of nature? Time and time again themeparks have showed higher sub numbers consistently. You're grasping at straws with that growth thing. You have nothing else so you keep repeating it over and over.
When you ignore reality yeah, what you wrote would make sense.
Funding problems? You mean like the rest of the world? Or was it because they're also developing two other MMO's along with maintaning EVE? Oh, they actually addressed that and said that like the rest of the world they weren't immune to the recession.
Years of neglect of EVE? You mean that every year they put out 2 expansions?
Or are you trying to use partial truths and out of context examples, yet again, to make it look like you have facts and evidence. Didn't I mention I've been playing EVE for many, many years now?
If you're going to point something out then use real facts. It was the NeX shop, a leaked memo that was supposed to be a what if scenario of developers playing devils advocate that combined gave the impression that CCP was abandoning the FiS part of the game in favor of developing a MT system that would offer more then just commetic features.
But this isn't about EVE. EVE is just my example of a very nich game that has a sub, and continues to see overal growth every year.
You can ignore everything I've written in favor of twisting fact and taking things out of context, your're still wrong.
Show us the themepark MMO's that use a sub based model and continually grow each year. There's hundreds of themeparks, and you insinuate that that's the only style that works, so surely there must be dozens of them operating under a sub based model and growing year in and year out. Which ones are they?
Comments
DOH! Totally forgot about Dust 514. Probably because it's for the PS3.
I wasn't implying that Eve isn't doing well. If Eve were operating in a vacuum, it would be doing very well. It's not doing so well compared to games in the theme park market. The very best of the best sandbox MMORPG running is marginal compared to Rift investment wise. It doesn't have a super great lead over cr@ppy games like CO and STO.
It's not that the sandbox MMORPG market is tiny or nonexistent, it's that it is too small to compete with the theme park MMORPG market for investment dollars.
** edit **
As Jaedor points out below, the 'sandbox market' is also split into even smaller markets making it even less competitive.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
At 68 pages, I'm with the OP. However, I think any discussion on this topic needs to distinguish between PvE sandbox and PvP sandbox.
There are some very vocal players out there looking for a sandbox with world PvP. But imo, only other PvPers will play that game. Eve is a prime example of what a good PvP sandbox game is like once it is established. And no PvEers stay there for very long.
A vocal and persistent minority is not a "massive" sandbox crowd.
WoW bleeding subs and will bleed more when GW2 comes out.
Aion F2P because of epic loss of subs.
LOTRO F2P because of epic loss of subs.
Rift has what 6 servers left.
SWTOR is merging and losing subs left and right.
EvE online (gaining subs) year after year.
Perhaps someone should explain the concept of staying power VS a flash in the pan and which makes more money to the companies. Its quite obvious these games loosing steam. Its time for a different kind of themepark or a different kind of game altogether.
It's pretty obvious what makes more money and it's not Eve. Again, I'm not saying Eve is doing poorly. But...when it comes to straight up money, the games you listed, however big their fails otherwise, have won.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I am talking about history, stuff that has happened or is happening now. You are stating opinion. I hope you won't feel bad if I don't just take your word for it. ; )
I'd love to see how you came to that conclusion with any of those games other than WoW...
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
If Eve demonstrated that it was making more money than the competition, then there would be copies. At least one copy not done by 10 guys in Hungary.
If Eve demonstrated that it was making even the same money, over a shorter period of time, then there would be copies. Again, at least one copy not done by 10 guys from Hungary.
Rift has financed the development of two MMO games. One is an RTS and one is an FPS.
LoTR is reportedly profitable, enough so that Turbine keeps making expansions.
Honestly not sure about Aion. To me, it's kind of like WarHammer...but with different graphics. WarHammer, btw, is profitable enough to keep running. Amazing, I know, but it keeps running and they keep charging money for it.
With SWToR, it's too soon to tell to be honest. Will it make money? Will it bring development of other MMORPG from Bioware? I don't know. It doesn't look like it to me. They are reporting profits though, so yeah, it's profitable.
I am not saying Eve isn't doing well. It's just not doing as well compared to other theme park games. Remember, Eve is the Best of the Best, Top of the Line, Nothing Is Better sandbox game. Numbers wise, it's good, just not the best overall for MMORPG. Even ignoring WoW, it's not.
** edit **
It's even worse if you look at the entire market for MMORPG in the 'West'. There is exactly one financially successful sandbox game and that's it. There is more than one financially successful theme park game, and it didn't take any of those games 12+ years to make money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Ohhhh, boy. I think I will just leave this one alone and go for lunch instead.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
How many SWTOR's will it take before people realize that themeparks are boring and developers realize that they can't make money cloning WoW?
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
You have NOT count it correctly, since you are ignoring a lot of the F2P MMOs and there are a lot more themepark than that on your list.
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/57989/MMO-Market-Report-Shows-30-Growth
This is 2010 numbers, so probably will be higher now. There are 47.5M Americans play MMO (most play F2P). I will use your numbers ... 2M accounts who play these sandbox.
That is less than 5% of the market. No wonder developers are ignoring it. Surely the themepark route is more competitve, but at least there is a big market out there.
Theres just no sandbox outthere with quality like WoW or TERA etc,but eve,but eve have a peculiar style its just space ships game and its hard to find someone who likes this style...
We will have to recount after archeage release
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
Sandbox fans could always play The SIms, its pretty much what you all want without the PvP. Archage seems like it going to be like that, just with anime style and giant swords.
Yea, and all last week you said WoW was a sandbox, that must really mess with these numbers
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
They have Sims fantasy out now, with dungeons/monsters, and high fantasy race settings?
Gaming in general is pretty bland without pvp. Also, single player games would be superior to mmorpg games except for the possibility of pvp.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
When they actually stop making money cloning WoW. Investors are agnostic in regards to sandboxes and theme parks. I am reasonably sure they do not care one way or the other. The only thing they care about is what makes money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Nah .. I didn't say that. Ii said "If Skyrim is a sandbox, then WOW is also one". You note the difference in logic?
?? Nah. Batman Akham City is a great game. The first Dead Space is a great game. Diablo 3 is a great game. (there are many more examples) Pvp NOT needed.
It's intersting that when I tried to point out that EVE isn't bigger then it is, or growing faster then it is, is because you play a spaceship a bunch of people told me I was wrong.
Yet, if you read through all the responces in this thread you see the exact same thing repeated over and over.
People saying they want to play a sandbox, but they don't want to play EVE because you're a ship.
It's alos interesting that no matter how many times people point out that EVE is one of the very few PAY TO PLAY mmo's that has seen continual growth year in and year out, the anti-sandbox guys keep harping, yeah but it's got fewer subs then all the themeparks so it obviously doesn't work.
EVE is ONLY ONE game. ONE game. Even people who don't like EVE or sandboxes keep saying the same exact thing, IT'S THE ONLY GOOD SANDBOX OUT. It's not just a single game, it wold appear that there is a unified concensus that it's the only worthwhile sandbox mmo on the market at that!
Some of you are comparing the subscription numbers OF A SINGLE GAME, to the sub numbers of ALL THE THEMEPARKS. Guess what? Ford sells fewer cars then every other car company in the wold! << This is the arguement some of you keep using!
On a GAME BY GAME basis, EVE HAS MORE SUBS then most of the themeparks put out. IT HAS MORE SUBS, then DDO did before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then AoC before it want FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then EQ2 before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then STO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then CO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then LoTRO before it went FREE TO PLAY. It will probably have more subs then ToR by the time it goes free to play.
EVE is doing what all these themeparks have been incapable of doing. GROWING. You can combine all the themeparks together all you want, you can not ignore the one fact that remains, EVE CONTINUES TO GROW WHILE EACH THEMEPARK THAT RELEASES CONTINUALLY LOSES SUBSCRIBERS AND THEN SWITCHES TO FREE TO PLAY.
List the subscription based themepark mmo's that continually grow, year after year. WoW is NOT on that list today. Name them!
It's intersting that when I tried to point out that EVE isn't bigger then it is, or growing faster then it is, is because you play a spaceship a bunch of people told me I was wrong.
Yet, if you read through all the responces in this thread you see the exact same thing repeated over and over.
People saying they want to play a sandbox, but they don't want to play EVE because you're a ship.
It's alos interesting that no matter how many times people point out that EVE is one of the very few PAY TO PLAY mmo's that has seen continual growth year in and year out, the anti-sandbox guys keep harping, yeah but it's got fewer subs then all the themeparks so it obviously doesn't work.
EVE is ONLY ONE game. ONE game. Even people who don't like EVE or sandboxes keep saying the same exact thing, IT'S THE ONLY GOOD SANDBOX OUT. It's not just a single game, it wold appear that there is a unified concensus that it's the only worthwhile sandbox mmo on the market at that!
Some of you are comparing the subscription numbers OF A SINGLE GAME, to the sub numbers of ALL THE THEMEPARKS. Guess what? Ford sells fewer cars then every other car company in the wold! << This is the arguement some of you keep using!On a GAME BY GAME basis, EVE HAS MORE SUBS then most of the themeparks put out. IT HAS MORE SUBS, then DDO did before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then AoC before it want FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then EQ2 before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then STO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then CO before it went FREE TO PLAY, it has more subs then LoTRO before it went FREE TO PLAY. It will probably have more subs then ToR by the time it goes free to play.
EVE is doing what all these themeparks have been incapable of doing. GROWING. You can combine all the themeparks together all you want, you can not ignore the one fact that remains, EVE CONTINUES TO GROW WHILE EACH THEMEPARK THAT RELEASES CONTINUALLY LOSES SUBSCRIBERS AND THEN SWITCHES TO FREE TO PLAY.
List the subscription based themepark mmo's that continually grow, year after year. WoW is NOT on that list today. Name them!
If you put all the other sandbox games that aren't Eve together, you'd probably have a tenth of the players compared to Eve. That's why it's the only example used...it's the only sandbox game example that's even close to relevant any longer.
Yes, Eve is growing, but it took a lot of years to get there. People looking to put money into games aren't going to wait 12+ years for a game to break even and finally grow to be profitable. Not when they can get a big kick at launch, and then get what amounts to free money for years because the game is paid off.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So what if Eve is growing? A small game growing is still a small game.
And themepark has hit a saturation point. If Eve has 10M players (which it probably will not forever), it will stop growing too. There are more than 47M MMO players in just the US, of course the grow-rate has slowed or stopped.
Lastly, if you like themepark, there are many to choose from. There are no need to be loyal. So even if the market is growing, given so much competition, individual games may not. And competition is a GOOD thing.
And again.
EVE is growing as a sub based game, themeparks are not. You guys keep ignoring this. It doesn't matter if it's only one compared to all the themeparks. It doesn't mater if there are 47m themepark players. IT"S GROWING in an industry that is seeing themeparks lose subs and switching to the F2P model.
If what the market demanded was more themeparks, they wouldn't keep losing subs after release, at least one would continue to grow, but one isn't unless they stop charging people to play it. You may consider that an insignificant fact, but it's not.
There is NO LONG TERM GROWTH in the themepark market anymore, but a sandbox mmo that puts you in the role of a ship grows. That's significant. If it wasn't spaceships, if they released a walking in stations feature that actually provided gameplay options EVE would probably explode.
I'm giving you an example of a game that is by all definition other then sandbox a niche game, yet keeps growing, and the so called mainstream style can't seem to put out a game that can do the same. And here you are saying there is no market worth tapping into. Pardon me, but all of the evidence available says that themeparks are only good to attract quick sales and then go F2P.
THE THEMEPARK CROWD ONLY HAS THEMEPARKS TO PLAY!! You're ignoring that in favor of cherry picking aspects of a whole. There is no AAA sandbox in a fantasy setting that can pointed at and used as evidence that it doesn't work, IT'S NOT BEEN DONE! UO is not an example, it's ancient. SWG isn't example, it had a multitude of problems that weren't associated with the sandbox part of the game. MO and DF aren't examples, they're independant games that most people don't even consider to be good, and being sandbox isn't the reason for that.
Show us a AAA sandbox MMO that doesn't work! Developer fears, and that's what is, isn't eveidence. They aren't making them because there isn't a market, they're not making them because they're afraid to take a chance. Just like every other studio was afraid to try it before WoW. Blizzard made an MMO, showed it was possible to make one, and then every other tom, dick, and hairy has been trying to emulate Blizzard.
If WoW was a sandbox, we'd be having an entirely diffierent conversation, that's a fact.
Aren't you forgetting now that CCP had funding problems this summer? On top of that their years of neglect of Eve finally caught up with them and they saw a decline in subs this last fall. Made them make those panicky declarations that they will do better in the future etc.
Its not a bed of roses on the sandbox side either. And it is just one game like you said. Who is to say that it isn't just a freak of nature? Time and time again themeparks have showed higher sub numbers consistently. You're grasping at straws with that growth thing. You have nothing else so you keep repeating it over and over.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you are in favor of competition, then you should be in favor of an AAA sandbox games being developed so that we can get more diverse gameplay in an MMO market currently saturated with themepark clones of a certain game that shall remain unnamed. Competition is good. I agree with that statement. I hope ArcheAge kicks everyone in the ass so that we can spark some kind of innovation in an otherwise stagnant genre.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
When you ignore reality yeah, what you wrote would make sense.
Funding problems? You mean like the rest of the world? Or was it because they're also developing two other MMO's along with maintaning EVE? Oh, they actually addressed that and said that like the rest of the world they weren't immune to the recession.
Years of neglect of EVE? You mean that every year they put out 2 expansions?
Or are you trying to use partial truths and out of context examples, yet again, to make it look like you have facts and evidence. Didn't I mention I've been playing EVE for many, many years now?
If you're going to point something out then use real facts. It was the NeX shop, a leaked memo that was supposed to be a what if scenario of developers playing devils advocate that combined gave the impression that CCP was abandoning the FiS part of the game in favor of developing a MT system that would offer more then just commetic features.
But this isn't about EVE. EVE is just my example of a very nich game that has a sub, and continues to see overal growth every year.
You can ignore everything I've written in favor of twisting fact and taking things out of context, your're still wrong.
Show us the themepark MMO's that use a sub based model and continually grow each year. There's hundreds of themeparks, and you insinuate that that's the only style that works, so surely there must be dozens of them operating under a sub based model and growing year in and year out. Which ones are they?