No it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.
You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?
I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levels just was fast and with just as good gear (actually I'll probably have better gear) and just as much coin (actually I'll probably have more coin).
^^ This is right.
Very few level by quest chain in WOW nowadays. Once LFD is implemented, that has become the prefered method. You get better loot and level up FASTER. All my alts (and my guildie's and my sons') are leveled this way.
Heck, that holds not only for alts, but mains when xpacs are out. Granted that most will WANT TO go through the quest chain to see the new zones, that is by no means needed. In CATA, my main skip a quest zone because of dungeoning. I did go back later in an alt to experience it.
So quest chains are really NOT mandatory in leveling, certainly not in WOW.
I'm not a TES fan or player. I'm just going by what the people I game with have said to me. Playing Skyrim as a multiplayer game is a no go. Same thing with Minecraft (which I do play; I also run a server), but with a slight twist - playing with chosen friends is fine, playing with strangers is not. Playing with too many friends on the same server is not OK either. Sandbox = Good, Sandbox with a bunch of people = Not Good. This is a tiny group of people, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe there is a big difference in the overall gamer population.
Like I have already said:
1. ALL the game features that I would want in a MMO version of TES already exist in an MMO.
2. I dont play ANY single player game because its a single player game.
3. I am not an ALL or NOTHING gamer. if you can give me some features but not all, maybe improve others I am totally fine with that. In fact, I enourage it.
4. gamers I know feel the same way
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
No it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.
You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?
I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levesl just was fast and with just as good gear and just as much coin.
I guess its different then. I havent played WoW so I cant speak to that. I do know that not questing in EQ2 as I tried to do is total crazy talk its like a 1:1000 ratio.
I'm currently playing EQ2, and yes on the adventure side quests definately give an edge, but just grinding in an instance is pretty darn good as well, lots of xp and drops, but still the quests help. On the crafting side (currenly 92 carpenter and 92 weaponsmith) it's... iffy. Rush orders I guess are quests and they are definately the way to go, and at 90 some durn good recipes are from questing.
However IMO EQ2 is a bit overbored on that. SWTOR is far too overboard.
This begs the question. If EQ2 and SWTOR are like that, but WoW isn't, what is more representative of themeparks and what is the exception?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
Way I see it is that there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind who think they are clever by pointing out that nobody make you drive to work, that walking is a comparable option and the other group that think that is a retarded position and that the other side is trying to be clever when in fact its having the opposite effect.
Are you sure you want to take that position?
Because it makes you sound completely clueless about how advancement and rewards work in WOW. Grouping (dungeons) vs. Soloing (quests) is very well balanced at this point (possibly erring on the side of grouping being superior; my last couple characters levelled faster than any other (while having superior gear) by running dungeons nonstop.)
It's exactly the motorcycle vs. car relationship Venge said it was.
Walking would be leveling via gathering alone, as that doesn't really reward a viable amount of XP or gear. However gathering as an augment to normal play is clearly what was intended when they added XP rewards to it, and in that respect it's like tuning your motorcycle to be just a little bit faster.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The original MMOs ( say up through WOW ) were essentially virtual worlds or at least gave that feel .. this is how the genre started. I am not sure where this linear funneled leveling experience crap came from and it has RUINED MMOs for me at least...
Full sandbox needed ? Not really, just give me a WoW world at release... seems we can't even get that anymore.
Since WOW? We have nearly Single player completely hand held experiences and they all tank within 6 months.
HRMMMM . . .
Was WoW themepark ? you bet, but WOW at release was a colossal game and virtual world compared to the crap that has been coming out since with:
limited leveling paths ( 1-2 max )
limited character customization and development
limited complexity and difficulty
----
I would take virtual world MMO themepark again with some sandboxy features, but this crap that has been released is getting the /backslap it deserves.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by VengeSunsoarOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by VengeSunsoarNo it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the oppositeHow? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levesl just was fast and with just as good gear and just as much coin.I guess its different then. I havent played WoW so I cant speak to that. I do know that not questing in EQ2 as I tried to do is total crazy talk its like a 1:1000 ratio.I'm currently playing EQ2, and yes on the adventure side quests definately give an edge, but just grinding in an instance is pretty darn good as well, lots of xp and drops, but still the quests help. On the crafting side (currenly 92 carpenter and 92 weaponsmith) it's... iffy. Rush orders I guess are quests and they are definately the way to go, and at 90 some durn good recipes are from questing.
However IMO EQ2 is a bit overbored on that. SWTOR is far too overboard.
This begs the question. If EQ2 and SWTOR are like that, but WoW isn't, what is more representative of themeparks and what is the exception?
Isn't it possible that's just an MMORPG feature and not a Sandbox or Theme Park feature?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
Way I see it is that there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind who think they are clever by pointing out that nobody make you drive to work, that walking is a comparable option and the other group that think that is a retarded position and that the other side is trying to be clever when in fact its having the opposite effect.
Are you sure you want to take that position?
Because it makes you sound completely clueless about how advancement and rewards work in WOW. Grouping (dungeons) vs. Soloing (quests) is very well balanced at this point (possibly erring on the side of grouping being superior; my last couple characters levelled faster than any other (while having superior gear) by running dungeons nonstop.)
It's exactly the motorcycle vs. car relationship Venge said it was.
Walking would be leveling via gathering alone, as that doesn't really reward a viable amount of XP or gear. However gathering as an augment to normal play is clearly what was intended when they added XP rewards to it, and in that respect it's like tuning your motorcycle to be just a little bit faster.
I TOTALLY want to take the clueless postion on WoW. Like I mentioned in another string I dont know about WoW but in EQ2 trying to progress without questing is insane but like walking to work, IS possible
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by lizardbones
I'm not a TES fan or player. I'm just going by what the people I game with have said to me. Playing Skyrim as a multiplayer game is a no go. Same thing with Minecraft (which I do play; I also run a server), but with a slight twist - playing with chosen friends is fine, playing with strangers is not. Playing with too many friends on the same server is not OK either. Sandbox = Good, Sandbox with a bunch of people = Not Good. This is a tiny group of people, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe there is a big difference in the overall gamer population.Like I have already said:
1. ALL the game features that I would want in a MMO version of TES already exist in an MMO.
2. I dont play ANY single player game because its a single player game.
3. I am not an ALL or NOTHING gamer. if you can give me some features but not all, maybe improve others I am totally fine with that. In fact, I enourage it.
4. gamers I know feel the same way
Does this mean you think there is or there is not a large AAA sandbox audience?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.
You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?
I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levels just was fast and with just as good gear (actually I'll probably have better gear) and just as much coin (actually I'll probably have more coin).
This is only true for about a third of classes (and a third of those talent-specs), namely the ones that have access to low-lvl AOE spells and kiting potential (Frost mages, best grinding class. hunter/warlock, second best).
Rogues, warriors are horrible grinding classes, and you will die, a lot.
In order to effectively grind in WoW, ie. be as good as questing you need:
-An exceptionally good knowledge of the game-world (first-time players will not)
-A class that supports grinding/kiting (enemy encounters are not balanced 1v1+X, and thats what you need to do to effectively grind)
-Intimate knowledge of your class and synergies in talents (again first time players will not)
-A plan, or guide to show you optimal griding-routes and spots.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarNo it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levesl just was fast and with just as good gear and just as much coin.
I guess its different then. I havent played WoW so I cant speak to that. I do know that not questing in EQ2 as I tried to do is total crazy talk its like a 1:1000 ratio.
I'm currently playing EQ2, and yes on the adventure side quests definately give an edge, but just grinding in an instance is pretty darn good as well, lots of xp and drops, but still the quests help. On the crafting side (currenly 92 carpenter and 92 weaponsmith) it's... iffy. Rush orders I guess are quests and they are definately the way to go, and at 90 some durn good recipes are from questing.
However IMO EQ2 is a bit overbored on that. SWTOR is far too overboard.
This begs the question. If EQ2 and SWTOR are like that, but WoW isn't, what is more representative of themeparks and what is the exception?
Isn't it possible that's just an MMORPG feature and not a Sandbox or Theme Park feature?
Possible, even probable. The problem comes when someone says that game A is a themepark because of it, and yet game B which doesn't have it, is still considered a themepark.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I'm not a TES fan or player. I'm just going by what the people I game with have said to me. Playing Skyrim as a multiplayer game is a no go. Same thing with Minecraft (which I do play; I also run a server), but with a slight twist - playing with chosen friends is fine, playing with strangers is not. Playing with too many friends on the same server is not OK either. Sandbox = Good, Sandbox with a bunch of people = Not Good. This is a tiny group of people, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe there is a big difference in the overall gamer population.
Like I have already said:
1. ALL the game features that I would want in a MMO version of TES already exist in an MMO.
2. I dont play ANY single player game because its a single player game.
3. I am not an ALL or NOTHING gamer. if you can give me some features but not all, maybe improve others I am totally fine with that. In fact, I enourage it.
4. gamers I know feel the same way
Does this mean you think there is or there is not a large AAA sandbox audience?
I think its possible to be larger than it is. I think many gamers have no idea what is possible because they havent been exposed. I dont think the OPs evidence is evidence that I am wrong 100% and I dont think my proposed evidence is evidence that he is wrong 100%. I think its in the middle.
but again, if you have never seen a big t*tty woman before how do you know you dont like it?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
My concept of sandbox would definitely allow for quest chains, even large quest chains. The difference between it and themepark is that you are not FORCED to do any large quest chain to "advance" through the game.
For example, in WoW, you have zones that are strictly tiered by level, and you typically have a choice of just a few zones at each level. You will do one of those zones, or you will not advance. It's that simple. You can't decide to do Un'Goro crater at level 20, and you can't decide to do Elwynn Forest at level 85...not happening. And yes, you can do PvP or dungeons too, but those options are simillarly limited. This is what creates the guided experience.
As for sandbox games with quest chains...Skyrim definitely has them. It has very large quest chains with the different guilds. But it is STILL a sandbox because nothing really directs your experience. The quest chains are there for you to do whenever you feel like. You can ignore them if you like, and it has zero impact on the rest of the game.
See thats the difference and I guess it comes down to perception. In themeparks I'm not forced to do them to advance either, we'll use WoW. In WoW I can get to max level by gathering/exploring, questing, grinding, dungeons or pvp. I don't need to do a quest chain to advance. My last run through wow in December I only did the quests that came with the dungeons, the one before that I did all quests, sometimes I've just done pvp. Once I even tried just the gathering but I got too bored.
It has zero impact on the rest of the game, just like skyrim. The quests are just there to do whenvery your feel like, you can ignore them, and many do, and it has zero impact on the rest of the game.
In skyrim there are definately areas and things I cannot do until I advance to a certain level in the quest chain, not the guild chains, but the dragonborn story chain, for instance you can't meet Paarthurnax until you've helped Delphine and delivered the horn. Just like WoW, there are dungeons/things I can't do until I get to a certain level/stage.
edit - I should say that I have never actually been max level in wow, but I've been close, I just got too bored with the game before reaching that. However I was never limited by the number of ways to reach that level.
Here, let me try to explain what I mean, and how I delineate the design of WoW from the design of say, Skyrim a little better...
Let's talk about the level experience from level 10-20 in both WoW and Skyrim.
In WoW, you are not forced to do any specific content to get to level 20. In fact, you can choose from any of the content available to that level range and your faction. You can do Darkshore, Westfall, The Barrens, etc. etc. But the fact is that even though you have some choices, the content tiered for level 10-20 is a very small subset of all the content in WoW.
And this is true for ANY level range in WoW. You can always choose what to do, but your options are extremely limited by your level range and your faction. Level tiered and faction specific content is what makes WoW directed. It is not 100% directed, but I think it's more directed than it is undirected, and thus...it's a themepark.
Now take the level 10-20 experience in Skyrim....actually, there is no level 10-20 experience in Skyrim. It's just Skyrim. There is no level tiering. You can do anything you want at any level range, with any character, at just about any time in the game. Nearly 100% of the content is open for you to do at just about any time. It is completely undirected...this is why it is a sandbox.
So basically, to sum up. The typical mechanism of guidance in themepark MMO's is level tiering. Just because you have choices, doesn't mean you have a lot of choices. You have to compare the amount of things you can do at any given time with the amount of things that the game offers altogether. If the amount of things you can do at any given time is much smaller than the amount of things that the game offers altogether...then it's probably a themepark.
Also...by any given time, I mean a "typical time" in the game. Please don't use any extreme examples like "in the tutorial" to prove that such and such game is a themepark because you can't do everything in the tutorial .
No it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.
You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?
I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levels just was fast and with just as good gear (actually I'll probably have better gear) and just as much coin (actually I'll probably have more coin).
This is only true for about a third of classes (and a third of those talent-specs), namely the ones that have access to low-lvl AOE spells and kiting potential (Frost mages, best grinding class. hunter/warlock, second best).
Rogues, warriors are horrible grinding classes, and you will die, a lot.
In order to effectively grind in WoW, ie. be as good as questing you need:
-An exceptionally good knowledge of the game-world (first-time players will not)
-A class that supports grinding/kiting (enemy encounters are not balanced 1v1+X, and thats what you need to do to effectively grind)
-Intimate knowledge of your class and synergies in talents (again first time players will not)
-A plan, or guide to show you optimal griding-routes and spots.
Doesn't sound like they are "equal".
Um no. Those classes are not soloing in the dungeons they are part of the group. Warriors, as a tank, get groups easier than any of the other classes (classes meaning tank, dps, healer...)
They are not soloing the dugneons. They are not kiting. They are running the dungeons and pvping. Every class gets the rewards, every class gets the xp, and the loot and coin at the same rate.
The only difference is healers and tanks get in faster, dps get in slower. So you warriors actually may do a bit better than the hunters and frost mages and rogues.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
No it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.
You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?
I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levels just was fast and with just as good gear (actually I'll probably have better gear) and just as much coin (actually I'll probably have more coin).
This is only true for about a third of classes (and a third of those talent-specs), namely the ones that have access to low-lvl AOE spells and kiting potential (Frost mages, best grinding class. hunter/warlock, second best).
Rogues, warriors are horrible grinding classes, and you will die, a lot.
In order to effectively grind in WoW, ie. be as good as questing you need:
-An exceptionally good knowledge of the game-world (first-time players will not)
-A class that supports grinding/kiting (enemy encounters are not balanced 1v1+X, and thats what you need to do to effectively grind)
-Intimate knowledge of your class and synergies in talents (again first time players will not)
-A plan, or guide to show you optimal griding-routes and spots.
Doesn't sound like they are "equal".
The part I dont understand is if what you say is accurate why would someone want to suggest that there is option when they know the same facts you are have presented. Wining and arguement will still not make the reality any different. I dont understand why people want to try and win a debate based on obfuscated facts. What impression or objective are they realistically trying to achieve? anyway, side note
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Um no. Those classes are not soloing in the dungeons they are part of the group. Warriors, as a tank, get groups easier than any of the other classes (classes meaning tank, dps, healer...)
They are not soloing the dugneons. They are not kiting. They are running the dungeons and pvping. Every class gets the rewards, every class gets the xp, and the loot and coin at the same rate.
The only difference is healers and tanks get in faster, dps get in slower. So you warriors actually may do a bit better than the hunters and frost mages and rogues.
All I know is when I played EQ2 I mostly soloed and I tried to play without questing and my progress was EXTREEMLY slow and many places I flat out could not go into without doing specific quest lines.
You are saying WoW is different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
What people are missing i think.. is you can SANDBOX parts of a game.
For example,
crafting and harvesting ONLY. ( crafting in Vanguard / swg for example )
World ONLY ( Think Skyrim world interaction, and maybe GW2 but i have not tried it )
Character development and leveling ONLY ( ala DDO )
What we are getting is completely hand held, linear 100% RIDE MY RIDE MY WAY bullshit.
Personally I would love to see:
1. crafting / harvesting / city building ALA SWG
2. Character development ALA r DDO / Skyrim
3. and a big world with quest hubs that you find / discover.
4. diplomacy like vanguard but with real integration into dungeons / raids / factions
This game would still be a "themepark" of sorts, but with sandboxy features. It need not be like chopping freakin trees for the first "20 levels" and learning to swim or something.
My concept of sandbox would definitely allow for quest chains, even large quest chains. The difference between it and themepark is that you are not FORCED to do any large quest chain to "advance" through the game.
For example, in WoW, you have zones that are strictly tiered by level, and you typically have a choice of just a few zones at each level. You will do one of those zones, or you will not advance. It's that simple. You can't decide to do Un'Goro crater at level 20, and you can't decide to do Elwynn Forest at level 85...not happening. And yes, you can do PvP or dungeons too, but those options are simillarly limited. This is what creates the guided experience.
As for sandbox games with quest chains...Skyrim definitely has them. It has very large quest chains with the different guilds. But it is STILL a sandbox because nothing really directs your experience. The quest chains are there for you to do whenever you feel like. You can ignore them if you like, and it has zero impact on the rest of the game.
See thats the difference and I guess it comes down to perception. In themeparks I'm not forced to do them to advance either, we'll use WoW. In WoW I can get to max level by gathering/exploring, questing, grinding, dungeons or pvp. I don't need to do a quest chain to advance. My last run through wow in December I only did the quests that came with the dungeons, the one before that I did all quests, sometimes I've just done pvp. Once I even tried just the gathering but I got too bored.
It has zero impact on the rest of the game, just like skyrim. The quests are just there to do whenvery your feel like, you can ignore them, and many do, and it has zero impact on the rest of the game.
In skyrim there are definately areas and things I cannot do until I advance to a certain level in the quest chain, not the guild chains, but the dragonborn story chain, for instance you can't meet Paarthurnax until you've helped Delphine and delivered the horn. Just like WoW, there are dungeons/things I can't do until I get to a certain level/stage.
edit - I should say that I have never actually been max level in wow, but I've been close, I just got too bored with the game before reaching that. However I was never limited by the number of ways to reach that level.
Here, let me try to explain what I mean, and how I delineate the design of WoW from the design of say, Skyrim a little better...
Let's talk about the level experience from level 10-20 in both WoW and Skyrim.
In WoW, you are not forced to do any specific content to get to level 20. In fact, you can choose from any of the content available to that level range and your faction. You can do Darkshore, Westfall, The Barrens, etc. etc. But the fact is that even though you have some choices, the content tiered for level 10-20 is a very small subset of all the content in WoW.
And this is true for ANY level range in WoW. You can always choose what to do, but your options are extremely limited by your level range and your faction. Level tiered and faction specific content is what makes WoW directed. It is not 100% directed, but I think it's more directed than it is undirected, and thus...it's a themepark.
Now take the level 10-20 experience in Skyrim....actually, there is no level 10-20 experience in Skyrim. It's just Skyrim. There is no level tiering. You can do anything you want at any level range, with any character, at just about any time in the game. Nearly 100% of the content is open for you to do at just about any time. It is completely undirected...this is why it is a sandbox.
So basically, to sum up. The typical mechanism of guidance in themepark MMO's is level tiering. Just because you have choices, doesn't mean you have a lot of choices. You have to compare the amount of things you can do at any given time with the amount of things that the game offers altogether. If the amount of things you can do at any given time is much smaller than the amount of things that the game offers altogether...then it's probably a themepark.
Also...by any given time, I mean a "typical time" in the game. Please don't use any extreme examples like "in the tutorial" to prove that such and such game is a themepark because you can't do everything in the tutorial .
I do agree with that. There is level tiering which does limit the choice as compared to a game without level tiering. And I tend to agree that level tiering as in a zone is designed for a particular level is representative of a themepark, guided content.
However I'm willing to accept that at some point when the number of choices reaches an arbitraty threshold (complelety individual) the guided experience ceases to exist. If WoW offered 30 different areas to level, would that still be considered a guided experience? Half a dozen, I still think guided, or somewhat guided anyway.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
My concept of sandbox would definitely allow for quest chains, even large quest chains. The difference between it and themepark is that you are not FORCED to do any large quest chain to "advance" through the game.
For example, in WoW, you have zones that are strictly tiered by level, and you typically have a choice of just a few zones at each level. You will do one of those zones, or you will not advance. It's that simple. You can't decide to do Un'Goro crater at level 20, and you can't decide to do Elwynn Forest at level 85...not happening. And yes, you can do PvP or dungeons too, but those options are simillarly limited. This is what creates the guided experience.
As for sandbox games with quest chains...Skyrim definitely has them. It has very large quest chains with the different guilds. But it is STILL a sandbox because nothing really directs your experience. The quest chains are there for you to do whenever you feel like. You can ignore them if you like, and it has zero impact on the rest of the game.
See thats the difference and I guess it comes down to perception. In themeparks I'm not forced to do them to advance either, we'll use WoW. In WoW I can get to max level by gathering/exploring, questing, grinding, dungeons or pvp. I don't need to do a quest chain to advance. My last run through wow in December I only did the quests that came with the dungeons, the one before that I did all quests, sometimes I've just done pvp. Once I even tried just the gathering but I got too bored.
It has zero impact on the rest of the game, just like skyrim. The quests are just there to do whenvery your feel like, you can ignore them, and many do, and it has zero impact on the rest of the game.
In skyrim there are definately areas and things I cannot do until I advance to a certain level in the quest chain, not the guild chains, but the dragonborn story chain, for instance you can't meet Paarthurnax until you've helped Delphine and delivered the horn. Just like WoW, there are dungeons/things I can't do until I get to a certain level/stage.
edit - I should say that I have never actually been max level in wow, but I've been close, I just got too bored with the game before reaching that. However I was never limited by the number of ways to reach that level.
Here, let me try to explain what I mean, and how I delineate the design of WoW from the design of say, Skyrim a little better...
Let's talk about the level experience from level 10-20 in both WoW and Skyrim.
In WoW, you are not forced to do any specific content to get to level 20. In fact, you can choose from any of the content available to that level range and your faction. You can do Darkshore, Westfall, The Barrens, etc. etc. But the fact is that even though you have some choices, the content tiered for level 10-20 is a very small subset of all the content in WoW.
And this is true for ANY level range in WoW. You can always choose what to do, but your options are extremely limited by your level range and your faction. Level tiered and faction specific content is what makes WoW directed. It is not 100% directed, but I think it's more directed than it is undirected, and thus...it's a themepark.
Now take the level 10-20 experience in Skyrim....actually, there is no level 10-20 experience in Skyrim. It's just Skyrim. There is no level tiering. You can do anything you want at any level range, with any character, at just about any time in the game. Nearly 100% of the content is open for you to do at just about any time. It is completely undirected...this is why it is a sandbox.
So basically, to sum up. The typical mechanism of guidance in themepark MMO's is level tiering. Just because you have choices, doesn't mean you have a lot of choices. You have to compare the amount of things you can do at any given time with the amount of things that the game offers altogether. If the amount of things you can do at any given time is much smaller than the amount of things that the game offers altogether...then it's probably a themepark.
Also...by any given time, I mean a "typical time" in the game. Please don't use any extreme examples like "in the tutorial" to prove that such and such game is a themepark because you can't do everything in the tutorial .
I do agree with that. There is level tiering which does limit the choice as compared to a game without level tiering. And I tend to agree that level tiering as in a zone is designed for a particular level is representative of a themepark, guided content.
However I'm willing to accept that at some point when the number of choices reaches an arbitraty threshold (complelety individual) the guided experience ceases to exist. If WoW offered 30 different areas to level, would that still be considered a guided experience? Half a dozen, I still think guided, or somewhat guided anyway.
Yeah it's really hard to say where you draw the line between sandbox and themepark because just about every game falls somewhere in the middle. I think that all you can really do is judge a game by its peers. WoW is extremely guided as compared to Skyrim, so I call WoW a themepark. But then again, WoW is far more sandboxy than say...SWTOR.
Then you have games that are striving to be hybrids between the two ideals that really can't be classified, like Archeage. And even GW2 has more sandboxy elements because of the way level scaling works. Hopefully, we will have a lot of those hybrid games in the future .
EDIT:
You also have to compare the amount of choices you have at any one given time with the total amount of things you can do in the game...you could even make a "sandbox index" where 0 is total themepark, and 1 is total sandbox lol . For example, if you typically have 5 choices of what you can do in WoW at any given time, but there are 500 things to do in total, then its sandbox index is 5/500 = .01.
On the other hand if in Skyrim you can do 200 things at any given time, but there are 250 things to do in total, then its sandbox index is 200/250 = .8.
I do agree with that. There is level tiering which does limit the choice as compared to a game without level tiering. And I tend to agree that level tiering as in a zone is designed for a particular level is representative of a themepark, guided content.
However I'm willing to accept that at some point when the number of choices reaches an arbitraty threshold (complelety individual) the guided experience ceases to exist. If WoW offered 30 different areas to level, would that still be considered a guided experience? Half a dozen, I still think guided, or somewhat guided anyway.
here is a true story.
Back in 2004 after playing many hours of Morrowind I decide to log into EQ2 for the first time. Instantly I thought 'well damn I got to get out of the sewers, well that is ok its training I guess'. HOURS later (progress was slower when it first came out) I finally got outside but not the 'low level exit'. I was already rather tired and warn out because I worked so hard that night just to see what 'outside' looked like. I finally got outside and everything was massively above my level. I asked in public how I can get around the major landscape. They said I need to be level X and I was far below that. I recall to this day me thinking 'you have got to be f8cking kidding me'. I quit a few days later, a few years later I came back only because I was bored.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I don't believe TOR has come ANYWHERE CLOSE to recouping it's development costs yet. Some back of the envelope math easly tells me that. More importantly, simply knowing something about expectations in the type of offering it is. With an SaaS business model (that's what MMO's are essentialy) the vast majority of your costs are sunk up front in terms of Development. Operating expenses are significant but still minor compared to that . You are EXTATIC if you recoup your Develpment Costs in the first year of business. It's an entirely different proposition then the boxed sales software business
Even if TOR had ZERO operating costs and made 100% of it's GROSS in Proffit...some back of the envelope math tells me they wouldn't have recouped thier initial Develpment investment yet.
Lets say on average the gross purchase cost of a TOR unit was $60....and that includes the first 30 days of play. I believe they sold somewhere around 2 million units.....that's $120 million GROSS.
They have, coming up now on 5 months worth of sub fees (remember 1st month is included in the initial sale). Lets say they averaged about 1.5 million subs (and I think that's generous) at $15 per month for 5 months. By my math thats around another $112 million Gross.
That puts us in at around $230 million GROSS. You seriously think TOR's Dev budget was significantly less then 200 million?
Again we're talking GROSS here....that's with ZERO Operating costs, ZERO percent of the proffits going to Lucas for the IP, ZERO percent of the proffits going to wholesalerrs/retailers/distributers for boxed sales. ZERO costs for production of packaging, etc..... ZERO costs for marketing.
You really think they've recouped thier initial investment already?
What TOR cost was estimated (by a third party source) around $150-200 million. I can't remember what is included in that. Still, even your calculations exceed the most pessimistic estimates easy.
Yes, I really think they've recouped their initial investment.
Read my post again. The back of the Envelope estimate (and that was being generous) had TOR at 230 million GROSS. That means that unless they had ZERO costs outside of initial Development costs and got 100 percent of the profit of of all sales (i.e. Nothing going to retailers or LUCAS or other royalty holders) did they recoup thier investment costs....
I TOTALLY want to take the clueless postion on WoW. Like I mentioned in another string I dont know about WoW but in EQ2 trying to progress without questing is insane but like walking to work, IS possible
I guess I'm failing to see how an example of poor game design (only motorcycles) changes the fact that the good game design ideal (motorcycles and cars as viable methods of transportation) exists and works.
Certainly there's nothing "silly" about better game design.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No it isn't that way at all. It is just as fast to gain levels in wow by dungeons and pvp as it is in through questings. So it's more do you want to take a car or a motorcycle. Not only that but there are definate advantages to not doing the quest chains - that is pvp gives you really good rewards, dungeons give you really good rewards and more coin.
You are not punished in any way shape or form by not doing the quests.
yes you are. this is silly. I dont know how many of the blindly obvious examples I can provide. are you SURE you want to take that position because I assure you its not making you look as clever as you think, in fact just the opposite
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how?
I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levels just was fast and with just as good gear (actually I'll probably have better gear) and just as much coin (actually I'll probably have more coin).
This is only true for about a third of classes (and a third of those talent-specs), namely the ones that have access to low-lvl AOE spells and kiting potential (Frost mages, best grinding class. hunter/warlock, second best).
Rogues, warriors are horrible grinding classes, and you will die, a lot.
In order to effectively grind in WoW, ie. be as good as questing you need:
-An exceptionally good knowledge of the game-world (first-time players will not)
-A class that supports grinding/kiting (enemy encounters are not balanced 1v1+X, and thats what you need to do to effectively grind)
-Intimate knowledge of your class and synergies in talents (again first time players will not)
-A plan, or guide to show you optimal griding-routes and spots.
Doesn't sound like they are "equal".
Have you actually play WOW? You hit the LFD button .. choose to be tank, dps or healer. ANY CLASS can do it. You need to know NOTHING about the game world since LFD will teleport you to the dungeon. Dungeons are super easy. Tank & spank works in EVERY BOSS until high levels.
No one ever kite in a low level dungeon. Just tank & spank.
That is why few quest-level. It is so easy, and the loot is so much better. If you haven't play WOW, or haven't played for a while .. say so. Don't spew out stuff that is clearly wrong.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by lizardbones
I'm not a TES fan or player. I'm just going by what the people I game with have said to me. Playing Skyrim as a multiplayer game is a no go. Same thing with Minecraft (which I do play; I also run a server), but with a slight twist - playing with chosen friends is fine, playing with strangers is not. Playing with too many friends on the same server is not OK either. Sandbox = Good, Sandbox with a bunch of people = Not Good. This is a tiny group of people, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe there is a big difference in the overall gamer population.Like I have already said: 1. ALL the game features that I would want in a MMO version of TES already exist in an MMO.2. I dont play ANY single player game because its a single player game.3. I am not an ALL or NOTHING gamer. if you can give me some features but not all, maybe improve others I am totally fine with that. In fact, I enourage it.4. gamers I know feel the same wayDoes this mean you think there is or there is not a large AAA sandbox audience?I think its possible to be larger than it is. I think many gamers have no idea what is possible because they havent been exposed. I dont think the OPs evidence is evidence that I am wrong 100% and I dont think my proposed evidence is evidence that he is wrong 100%. I think its in the middle.
<snip>
That seems plausible. Likely even. I find the idea of a very large sandbox audience that it's impossible to quantify unlikely. I find the idea of a very large group of people who would be sandbox players if they actually played a decent one likely.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
I want a good sandbox game. Unfortunately no one makes any.
^^ This is right.
Very few level by quest chain in WOW nowadays. Once LFD is implemented, that has become the prefered method. You get better loot and level up FASTER. All my alts (and my guildie's and my sons') are leveled this way.
Heck, that holds not only for alts, but mains when xpacs are out. Granted that most will WANT TO go through the quest chain to see the new zones, that is by no means needed. In CATA, my main skip a quest zone because of dungeoning. I did go back later in an alt to experience it.
So quest chains are really NOT mandatory in leveling, certainly not in WOW.
Like I have already said:
1. ALL the game features that I would want in a MMO version of TES already exist in an MMO.
2. I dont play ANY single player game because its a single player game.
3. I am not an ALL or NOTHING gamer. if you can give me some features but not all, maybe improve others I am totally fine with that. In fact, I enourage it.
4. gamers I know feel the same way
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I'm currently playing EQ2, and yes on the adventure side quests definately give an edge, but just grinding in an instance is pretty darn good as well, lots of xp and drops, but still the quests help. On the crafting side (currenly 92 carpenter and 92 weaponsmith) it's... iffy. Rush orders I guess are quests and they are definately the way to go, and at 90 some durn good recipes are from questing.
However IMO EQ2 is a bit overbored on that. SWTOR is far too overboard.
This begs the question. If EQ2 and SWTOR are like that, but WoW isn't, what is more representative of themeparks and what is the exception?
Are you sure you want to take that position?
Because it makes you sound completely clueless about how advancement and rewards work in WOW. Grouping (dungeons) vs. Soloing (quests) is very well balanced at this point (possibly erring on the side of grouping being superior; my last couple characters levelled faster than any other (while having superior gear) by running dungeons nonstop.)
It's exactly the motorcycle vs. car relationship Venge said it was.
Walking would be leveling via gathering alone, as that doesn't really reward a viable amount of XP or gear. However gathering as an augment to normal play is clearly what was intended when they added XP rewards to it, and in that respect it's like tuning your motorcycle to be just a little bit faster.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The original MMOs ( say up through WOW ) were essentially virtual worlds or at least gave that feel .. this is how the genre started. I am not sure where this linear funneled leveling experience crap came from and it has RUINED MMOs for me at least...
Full sandbox needed ? Not really, just give me a WoW world at release... seems we can't even get that anymore.
Since WOW? We have nearly Single player completely hand held experiences and they all tank within 6 months.
HRMMMM . . .
Was WoW themepark ? you bet, but WOW at release was a colossal game and virtual world compared to the crap that has been coming out since with:
limited leveling paths ( 1-2 max )
limited character customization and development
limited complexity and difficulty
----
I would take virtual world MMO themepark again with some sandboxy features, but this crap that has been released is getting the /backslap it deserves.
( hello RIFT, SWTOR, AOC, Warhammer, Elder Scrolls Online, etc etc etc etc etc )
How? As I stated I get xp just as fast and I get better gear and rewards. So pleas explain how? I don't need to do a single quest and I will get to the high levesl just was fast and with just as good gear and just as much coin.
I guess its different then. I havent played WoW so I cant speak to that. I do know that not questing in EQ2 as I tried to do is total crazy talk its like a 1:1000 ratio.
I'm currently playing EQ2, and yes on the adventure side quests definately give an edge, but just grinding in an instance is pretty darn good as well, lots of xp and drops, but still the quests help. On the crafting side (currenly 92 carpenter and 92 weaponsmith) it's... iffy. Rush orders I guess are quests and they are definately the way to go, and at 90 some durn good recipes are from questing.
However IMO EQ2 is a bit overbored on that. SWTOR is far too overboard.
This begs the question. If EQ2 and SWTOR are like that, but WoW isn't, what is more representative of themeparks and what is the exception?
Isn't it possible that's just an MMORPG feature and not a Sandbox or Theme Park feature?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I TOTALLY want to take the clueless postion on WoW. Like I mentioned in another string I dont know about WoW but in EQ2 trying to progress without questing is insane but like walking to work, IS possible
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Like I have already said:
1. ALL the game features that I would want in a MMO version of TES already exist in an MMO.
2. I dont play ANY single player game because its a single player game.
3. I am not an ALL or NOTHING gamer. if you can give me some features but not all, maybe improve others I am totally fine with that. In fact, I enourage it.
4. gamers I know feel the same way
Does this mean you think there is or there is not a large AAA sandbox audience?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is only true for about a third of classes (and a third of those talent-specs), namely the ones that have access to low-lvl AOE spells and kiting potential (Frost mages, best grinding class. hunter/warlock, second best).
Rogues, warriors are horrible grinding classes, and you will die, a lot.
In order to effectively grind in WoW, ie. be as good as questing you need:
-An exceptionally good knowledge of the game-world (first-time players will not)
-A class that supports grinding/kiting (enemy encounters are not balanced 1v1+X, and thats what you need to do to effectively grind)
-Intimate knowledge of your class and synergies in talents (again first time players will not)
-A plan, or guide to show you optimal griding-routes and spots.
Doesn't sound like they are "equal".
Possible, even probable. The problem comes when someone says that game A is a themepark because of it, and yet game B which doesn't have it, is still considered a themepark.
I think its possible to be larger than it is. I think many gamers have no idea what is possible because they havent been exposed. I dont think the OPs evidence is evidence that I am wrong 100% and I dont think my proposed evidence is evidence that he is wrong 100%. I think its in the middle.
but again, if you have never seen a big t*tty woman before how do you know you dont like it?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
...over 800 posts...this is quite the threadnaught you guys have kept going!
Where's the any key?
Here, let me try to explain what I mean, and how I delineate the design of WoW from the design of say, Skyrim a little better...
Let's talk about the level experience from level 10-20 in both WoW and Skyrim.
In WoW, you are not forced to do any specific content to get to level 20. In fact, you can choose from any of the content available to that level range and your faction. You can do Darkshore, Westfall, The Barrens, etc. etc. But the fact is that even though you have some choices, the content tiered for level 10-20 is a very small subset of all the content in WoW.
And this is true for ANY level range in WoW. You can always choose what to do, but your options are extremely limited by your level range and your faction. Level tiered and faction specific content is what makes WoW directed. It is not 100% directed, but I think it's more directed than it is undirected, and thus...it's a themepark.
Now take the level 10-20 experience in Skyrim....actually, there is no level 10-20 experience in Skyrim. It's just Skyrim. There is no level tiering. You can do anything you want at any level range, with any character, at just about any time in the game. Nearly 100% of the content is open for you to do at just about any time. It is completely undirected...this is why it is a sandbox.
So basically, to sum up. The typical mechanism of guidance in themepark MMO's is level tiering. Just because you have choices, doesn't mean you have a lot of choices. You have to compare the amount of things you can do at any given time with the amount of things that the game offers altogether. If the amount of things you can do at any given time is much smaller than the amount of things that the game offers altogether...then it's probably a themepark.
Also...by any given time, I mean a "typical time" in the game. Please don't use any extreme examples like "in the tutorial" to prove that such and such game is a themepark because you can't do everything in the tutorial
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Um no. Those classes are not soloing in the dungeons they are part of the group. Warriors, as a tank, get groups easier than any of the other classes (classes meaning tank, dps, healer...)
They are not soloing the dugneons. They are not kiting. They are running the dungeons and pvping. Every class gets the rewards, every class gets the xp, and the loot and coin at the same rate.
The only difference is healers and tanks get in faster, dps get in slower. So you warriors actually may do a bit better than the hunters and frost mages and rogues.
The part I dont understand is if what you say is accurate why would someone want to suggest that there is option when they know the same facts you are have presented. Wining and arguement will still not make the reality any different. I dont understand why people want to try and win a debate based on obfuscated facts. What impression or objective are they realistically trying to achieve? anyway, side note
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
All I know is when I played EQ2 I mostly soloed and I tried to play without questing and my progress was EXTREEMLY slow and many places I flat out could not go into without doing specific quest lines.
You are saying WoW is different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
What people are missing i think.. is you can SANDBOX parts of a game.
For example,
crafting and harvesting ONLY. ( crafting in Vanguard / swg for example )
World ONLY ( Think Skyrim world interaction, and maybe GW2 but i have not tried it )
Character development and leveling ONLY ( ala DDO )
What we are getting is completely hand held, linear 100% RIDE MY RIDE MY WAY bullshit.
Personally I would love to see:
1. crafting / harvesting / city building ALA SWG
2. Character development ALA r DDO / Skyrim
3. and a big world with quest hubs that you find / discover.
4. diplomacy like vanguard but with real integration into dungeons / raids / factions
This game would still be a "themepark" of sorts, but with sandboxy features. It need not be like chopping freakin trees for the first "20 levels" and learning to swim or something.
I do agree with that. There is level tiering which does limit the choice as compared to a game without level tiering. And I tend to agree that level tiering as in a zone is designed for a particular level is representative of a themepark, guided content.
However I'm willing to accept that at some point when the number of choices reaches an arbitraty threshold (complelety individual) the guided experience ceases to exist. If WoW offered 30 different areas to level, would that still be considered a guided experience? Half a dozen, I still think guided, or somewhat guided anyway.
Yeah it's really hard to say where you draw the line between sandbox and themepark because just about every game falls somewhere in the middle. I think that all you can really do is judge a game by its peers. WoW is extremely guided as compared to Skyrim, so I call WoW a themepark. But then again, WoW is far more sandboxy than say...SWTOR.
Then you have games that are striving to be hybrids between the two ideals that really can't be classified, like Archeage. And even GW2 has more sandboxy elements because of the way level scaling works. Hopefully, we will have a lot of those hybrid games in the future
.
EDIT:
You also have to compare the amount of choices you have at any one given time with the total amount of things you can do in the game...you could even make a "sandbox index" where 0 is total themepark, and 1 is total sandbox lol
. For example, if you typically have 5 choices of what you can do in WoW at any given time, but there are 500 things to do in total, then its sandbox index is 5/500 = .01.
On the other hand if in Skyrim you can do 200 things at any given time, but there are 250 things to do in total, then its sandbox index is 200/250 = .8.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
here is a true story.
Back in 2004 after playing many hours of Morrowind I decide to log into EQ2 for the first time. Instantly I thought 'well damn I got to get out of the sewers, well that is ok its training I guess'. HOURS later (progress was slower when it first came out) I finally got outside but not the 'low level exit'. I was already rather tired and warn out because I worked so hard that night just to see what 'outside' looked like. I finally got outside and everything was massively above my level. I asked in public how I can get around the major landscape. They said I need to be level X and I was far below that. I recall to this day me thinking 'you have got to be f8cking kidding me'. I quit a few days later, a few years later I came back only because I was bored.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Read my post again. The back of the Envelope estimate (and that was being generous) had TOR at 230 million GROSS. That means that unless they had ZERO costs outside of initial Development costs and got 100 percent of the profit of of all sales (i.e. Nothing going to retailers or LUCAS or other royalty holders) did they recoup thier investment costs....
I guess I'm failing to see how an example of poor game design (only motorcycles) changes the fact that the good game design ideal (motorcycles and cars as viable methods of transportation) exists and works.
Certainly there's nothing "silly" about better game design.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Have you actually play WOW? You hit the LFD button .. choose to be tank, dps or healer. ANY CLASS can do it. You need to know NOTHING about the game world since LFD will teleport you to the dungeon. Dungeons are super easy. Tank & spank works in EVERY BOSS until high levels.
No one ever kite in a low level dungeon. Just tank & spank.
That is why few quest-level. It is so easy, and the loot is so much better. If you haven't play WOW, or haven't played for a while .. say so. Don't spew out stuff that is clearly wrong.
Like I have already said: 1. ALL the game features that I would want in a MMO version of TES already exist in an MMO. 2. I dont play ANY single player game because its a single player game. 3. I am not an ALL or NOTHING gamer. if you can give me some features but not all, maybe improve others I am totally fine with that. In fact, I enourage it. 4. gamers I know feel the same way
Does this mean you think there is or there is not a large AAA sandbox audience?
I think its possible to be larger than it is. I think many gamers have no idea what is possible because they havent been exposed. I dont think the OPs evidence is evidence that I am wrong 100% and I dont think my proposed evidence is evidence that he is wrong 100%. I think its in the middle.
<snip>
That seems plausible. Likely even. I find the idea of a very large sandbox audience that it's impossible to quantify unlikely. I find the idea of a very large group of people who would be sandbox players if they actually played a decent one likely.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.