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What makes a sandbox?
Dewm
Member UncommonPosts: 1,337
So in the other thread,(how there is no sandbox crowd) several times in the discussion it has come up that Skyrim either is a sandbox...or isn't a sandbox.
So I guess my question is, what is a sandbox?
WoW has been forever labled a thempark MMO while games like SWG is labled a sandbox...and somehow Skyrim is in this weird middle... But at what point is it a themepark, and what point is it a sandbox?
WoW has quest, so does Skyrim
WoW has crafting, so does Skyrim
WoW you can travel all around the map, you can do this in skyrim
I'm just not convinced there is this giant blanket called themepark and games like WoW or RIFT actually fit under it.
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You been here long enough and posted in enough of these threads that it is really hard to believe this is a genuine question.
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Sand and a Box to put it in
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Honestly...
I have grown the hate the sandbox/themepark classification. NO ONE agrees on what exactly they mean and there are ENDLESS arguments over what always boils down to semantics.
I really think we should just call the games "non-linear" or "linear." Because really, that's what it comes down to in the end.
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Well said. In fact, if you look at freedom, there is MORE in WOW than in SKYRIM.
Aside from
1) I can go anywhere in the world, and
2) I can do any quests and dungeon at any time,
in wow, you can
1) play any BG or arena,
2) collect pets
3) chat with guildies
4) play the AH
If Skyrim is a sandbox, wow is also one .. and one with more freedom of choices.
WOW is obvious non-linear then. You can a choice of many activitise including follow different quest lines, dungeoning, raiding, collect pets and what-not.
In a "sandbox" you make your own story lines, your own content. You set your own goals.
In a "themepark" you play someone elses story line, someone elses content. You perform somone elses goals.
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the name says a lot - imagine a box full of sand , there are so many small rocks in a box of sand that you can not count them
a sand box game is a game that as so many items , skills , options , the data base is so huge you can compare it to a box full of sand
i remember the first time i went in anarchy online , i looked into a kinda of a computer that had a list of items i dont even know what they were for then and i still dont know , but it was a list of 500 or 1000 items
LOL that is a sand box game
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The giant blanket is created by the individual person demanding everyone use what they deem the word to mean.
The ACTUAL word, either sandbox or themepark has a far broader meaning than many are willing to admit.
As for Skyrim being sandbox or not, all you have to do is a search for "is skrim a sandbox game" and look at the dozens of links to dozens of gaming websites calling it one....or go to one of several extremely popular TES modding sites with 100,000s of TES game players members of talking about how great the games sandbox features are.
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In my opinion, both terms are meaningless because they do not carry inherent value.
I very rarely seen unbiased, sensibile definitions of these two words.
Themepark is typically associated with having linearized content systems, and also handholding, easy mode, simplified features, lack of realism. Sandboxes are typically associated with FFA fulldrop PvP, player housing, worlds containing nothing, better crafting systems, more realism, more hardcore games.
This is nonsense. There's no logic between that classification. That's actually a fad classification that generated itself due to current MMO development trends, and it's more accurately described as mainstream vs niche more than anything.
Themepark means dev generated content. Sandbox means player generated content via dev generated content. That's it.
Path of Exile is a themepark. Minecraft is a sandbox.
A themepark can be hardcore and realistic and have a crappy tutorial just as easily as a sandbox can. And similarly, you can create a PvE sandbox without any PvP at all, and a FFA fulldrop PvP themepark just fine (some multiplayer version of M&B are exactly that). The thing is, most sandboxes atm are niche, and niche often brings about all these secondary elements that have nothing to do with sandbox at all.
Generally, I consider the terms fruitless because it puts unnecessary limits on something that should simply just be an MMO. There's nothing wrong with sticking sandbox features into a themepark or creating a PvE sandbox.
Especially I am sick of the references to hand-holding and easy mode and saying how that's a themepark problem. That's not a themepark feature, but a separate variable mechanic within a game. Most modern themeparks provide tutorials and guidance because they're aimed at casual markets and there are many working people out there who do not want to spend 5 hours on figuring out the UI to feel more hadcore.
The term 'sandbox' refers to whatever I like and the term 'themepark' refers to whatever I hate. This is a great way for me to make sensationalist thread titles and hopefully wrangle a Spotlight Poster title for saying the same thing as thousands of other spotlight posters: SANDBAWKS ARE KOOL THEMEPARK ONLY PLAID BY SHEEPLE!!!!
In my opinion, a sandbox is a game designed to allow for player created content. This means having the infastructure for players controlling territory and being able to take it from other players or defend one's own territory. This necessitates open pvp without factions. Guilds of players band together to be able to hold and capture territory.
Themeparks have quests requiring you to kill 10 rats over and over until you reach the level cap. Once you reach the level cap the game will have some sort of alternate advancement system that will keep you pulling the lever for a fish biscuit and paying for that subscription for as long as possible. They add battleground systems of instanced pvp to keep players from realizing that all they do is grind.
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I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
This is essentially my view as well.
Linear vs non-linear doesn't cut it because I have just as much (or at least almost as much) in where I go in the world, or the content I engage in as WoW.
For me the definition stricly boils down to how much can I impact the world. In WoW I can't impact it at all. So WoW is a themepark (despite having a lot of freedom).
Skyrim also does not let me impact the world, other than their storyline. I can't really build anything, I can't alter the landscape (not talking about the mods here, that definately is a game changer).
And it definately has nothing to do with pvp. Yes you should be able to own property of some kind as that is the easiest way to impact the world, but being able to take the property away is not a needed feature.
The more I can impact the world, the more sandboxy it is.
In practice, I think it's exactly the reverse...a sandbox is for destroying the things other people build. A darn shame but that seems to be the ultimate defining characteristic.
Sure, there are non-linear things about WoW, but linear / non-linear isn't binary, it's more of a continuum.
WoW does have non-linear aspects like you say. However, it also includes many linear aspects like strictly level-tiered zones, quest chains, etc. That said though, WoW DOES offer the player a lot of choices which IS a non-linear thing. And I think that WoW is probably one of the most NON-linear games that are classified as themeparks out there, even though it is far more linear than say...Eve, UO, or even Skyrim.
In fact, I think that the problem that many of the newer "themepark" games have is that they are way too far down the linear side of the continuum. Look at SWTOR for example, you really do not have much of a choice in where you go when you level. Once you get off the starter worlds, you pretty much have a set path in front of you and that's it. Sure you can do BGs or flashpoints as a diversion, but the "meat" of the game is pretty darn linear. Same thing with Aion, AoC, WAR, and (from what I saw) Tera.
My hope is that game devs realize that making an MMORPG too linear is essentially a death sentence.
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Yeah I was about to say the same thing. It's a redundant never ending circle of self-appointed definition.
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To my understanding sandbox has 2 definitions, depending on which school of gaming one is from.
CONSOLERS: Sandbox is free-roaming RPG that's usually single player. Freedom is in the form of go whereever you want and thus non-linear. Content is provided by the developer in the form of things to do. Skyrim is an example of such, because it is a sandbox console RPG.
MMORPGERS: Sandbox is a UO or SWG clone or some variant thereof. Freedom is in the form of go where you want, build what you want, fight who you want. Although some content can be developer provided, for the most part the game works like a gigantic multiplayer world simulation. These games are sandboxes because the developer provides tools for world modification such as creation of buildings. By this definition Skyrim isn't a sandbox because it isn't a multiplayer world simulation.
That's my opinion why there is so much controversy over the definition. It's two different kinds of games, both called "sandbox".
Don't believe me? Find a console player who has never seen an MMORPG and ask them what a sandbox is.
Read my previous post, you have done all the mistakes I've mentioned here because you are too full of bias. "Sandbox is what I like, themepark is what I hate." as the poster above pointed out.
In practice, that turned out to be the case way too often. But it doesn't have to be that way. A Tale in the Desert is a PvE sandbox iirc.
Sandbox = sand = player-created (players create or manipulate the experience)
Themepark = rides = developer-created
Every feature is either a sandbox or themepark one, and the core game experience is going to engage in predominantly one type or the other: thus resulting in the term most players apply to that game.
Linearity has nothing to do with a game being a themepark, as real world themeparks don't involve linearity and you have themepark games like Skyrim and GTA which are non-linear.
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You are wrong on so many levels. The sand is the world given to you by the developers.
Let's internet
There have been quite a few threads on this question, but still worth another go...
First the terms "sandbox" and "themepark" just by themselves
SANDBOX: Basically like a box of sand; someone can go into it and build pretty much whatever they want, only being limited to the capability of the basic tools that they are given for manipulating the sand, the physical limits of what sand can do, and their own imagination. Two different people are entirely capable of creating two completely different things with the same sand. The creator of the sandbox can improve the experience of the users by improving the quality and variety of the tools and the amount of sand available to play with, giving them the capacity to create bigger, more complex shapes that weren't possible before and have never been seen.
THEMEPARK: A pre-built, fully defined set of rides, which goes through a series of twists, turns and activities with set goals. Every user who goes on that ride will go through the exact same series of twists, turns and activities with set goals. The users can bring different clothes, they can go on it alone or with friends, but there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that the users can do to change the twists and turns they will go through on the rides, and although during the activity they might be able to go about achieving the goal of the activity in a different way, they are unable to change what the goal itself is. The creator of the rides improves the experience by either introducing new rides or by tweaking existing ones to have more interesting twists and turns.
Now, when applying this methodology to games, in terms of the core game content and mechanics every single MMO has BOTH of these aspects in some way. In fact, it could be said that for every MMO all 100% of their content is some combination of these two aspects, and nothing else, a ratio of the modifiable/creatable and the unmodifiable.
What ultimately makes the game labelled as a "sandbox" or "themepark" game is in what that ratio is, and on which of those two aspects gets the dominant percentage (it is possible for the percentage to be 100% of only one of them). If you look at all the activities or "things" that you can do in a game and what the core content focuses on, if the majority of those activities and content is themepark-based then it is a themepark game. If the majority is a sandbox type, it is a sandbox game. Whether or not the game is good depends on how good the sand and tools are for the sandbox aspects, and on how engrossing and exciting the rides are for the themepark aspects and if there is something new in the rides that you can't find in the themepark next door.
Where's the any key?
Still waiting for the part where you prove me wrong.
A world that players can manipulate is one form of player creation/manipulation.
It's also not the only form of player creation/manipualtion which will make a game a sandbox. Drawception has no "world" and yet it's basically a sandbox game because it's completely driven by players.
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This is exactly what I am talking about.
First off, I am a fan of WoW..and what it is, they are doing it well.. that being said, I only played for a few months and I am EXTREMLY exited about Archeage.
...BUT
..What makes Archeage a sandbox and WoW not?
the fact that you can craft ships and houses? I mean from what I've seen they both have pretty idetical quest systems and combat systems, based on the holy trinity..
...so is it the FFA PVP?..
what EXACT elements make a sandbox sandy?
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