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It's not the users, it's the game...
MosesZD
Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
Many people on thse forums might have heard of Richard Bartle. For those who haven't, he's a very big deal in game design. He played SWTOR, not because of some 'love of playing MMOs' but because it's his JOB and he wanted to spend some time on the SWTOR end-game to see what BioWare did.
Anyway, Bartle has a personal blog where he shares his life, his career, goofy things and observations (in an anecdotal fashion) about games he studies. He points out that, essentially, the game was neither fish nor fowl and did not stick to its guns. Just after the 1.2 patch:
A a Bioware game, Star Wars: the Old Republic was designed with story at its heart. It attracted experienced players on that basis, and newbies on the basis of its intellectual property. There are people playing SW:TOR who have never played an MMO before, and there are people playing it who have but were looking for something different.
Following patch 1.2, there are going to be fewer of each.
SW:TOR could have evolved in one of two directions. Either it could have stuck with its storytelling genesis and added more content in the levelling game or it could have regressed to the MMO norm and added more endgame content. The former would be saying that story was indeed paramount and when you reach level 50 you should be wanting to level up new characters because that's where the fun lines. The latter would be saying that you may have got this far for the story but the story is now over and it's a different game from here on. The only real question I had when I made level 50 for the first time myself was whether Bioware was going to be true to its storytelling ideals or give up on them. As patch 1.2 approached, it became increasingly apparent which way the wind was blowing: towards the MMO norm.
Sure enough, when the patch finally came out last week, that's what we got. New content at the endgame, plus a legacy system that helps you get through the levelling game to the endgame faster. No new content for people as they level, just ways to speed through it plus a bit more to do at the end. Come for stories, then when they're done spend your time learning to dance.
People who came for stories may well stay for the endgame, but many won't. If they like story and there's no story except the "will I win that once chance I have this week of getting my tier 3 headpiece?", well that's problematical for them. If they came from another MMO and find that all they're doing at the end is the same as they were doing before except with lightsabres instead of 3m-long swords, why did they bother? They might as well not have left WoW. Again, that's problematical for them.
Which has the better story, SW:TOR or WoW? Well SW:TOR. Which has the better endgame? Well, WoW. Why does it make sense, therefore, for SW:TOR to make the game be all about the endgame?
Bioware had the chance to put their story-based philosophy on the line and give us something different, but when decision time came they passed. Oh well. So now it's just another MMO, then.
I think I'll keep my subscription going for a little longer, in part because my guild just lost half its geared healers (including the guild leader) following the disappointment of 1.2 (there are only 3 of us left now), in part because I want to support Bioware's stance against mad people, and in part because I know some of the designers there and want this game to succeed. The writing is on the wall, though...
And this on Star Wars day:
I cancelled my Star Wars: the Old Republic account today. I would have done it earlier, but I held out because I wanted to see if anything special happened because of the date (it didn't).
As I regularly mention, I don't play MMOs for player fun. In terms of designer fun, I could have stopped a day after I started, but I kept going for reasons of credentials and solidarity. I was also determined to get involved with the endgame more than I usually do, in the hope that it might offer something new (it didn't). I achieved this goal with some fairly intensive playing that ate up rather too many evenings, but work is work. I reached legacy level 37 (the highest in the guild by some margin) with a /played of 19d 8h 30m on my level 50 Jedi sage healer, 11d 11h 45m on my level 50 gunslinger ranged DPS and 2d 17h 45m on my level 40 Jedi knight tank. Including assorted other characters, that means I played for around 33 days of elapsed time over 137 days, or roughly 25% of my time. This may sound excessive, but when I was marking assignments I was spending 60% of my time on that; I can be dedicated when the job demands it.
SW:TOR is shedding players by the bucketload now, at least on the Republic side. It used to be that our guild could put together three operations (ie. raids) at once, but yesterday it couldn't even put together a group for the Lost Island flashpoint (ie. instance). I can go to planets such as Ilum (where PvP takes place and there are lucrative daily quests) and be the only Republic player present. It may be different for Imperials, but on the Republic side the game is a multi-player wasteland.
I won't be going through the 93 pages of notes I made to tell you why I believe things aren't turning out as well as they might, but I believe that the fundamental reason is the too-large dissonance between the levelling game and the endgame. The levelling game is all about story and solo play; the endgame is all about group play and grinding through dailies. There's too great a disconnect. If new content had been added to the levelling game in patch 1.2, things could have been different. However, the new content added was at the endgame; indeed, the developers' view seems to be that players want to skip through the levelling game quicker on their alts, judging by the introduction of shared buffs across all your characters and legacy items you can use to over-gear them. As a result of this, my level 15 trooper ranged dps is cutting through content like a hot knife through butter. SW:TOR was sold on the strength of its story elements; encouraging players to scoot through the story to get to a generic endgame is of course going to cost it players.
The game does have its strengths. The companion system adds to the gameplay (once you get the right companion, which for my smuggler was tiresomely late). The storylines also work well, even if they are a bit predictable (I know what my Jedi knight will be doing at the end of his) (oh, but I hated the end of Chapter 2: you do not wrest control of a character from the player in an MMO). I think the combat system is well-designed, well-balanced and allows good players to outshine worse players with better gear; other MMOs could learn from it. I also like the space combat mini-game, but that may be because I seem to be superb at it (probably from playing so much Starfire in the arcade where I worked in my teens).
The game's weaknesses are mainly to do with either its over-copying of WoW's mechanics or its integration of single-player story into a multi-player environment. If my character has just inherited a vast spacefleet from putting down a rebellion, why am I going into this same cave to rescue the same prisoners I rescued yesterday to help out the same officer who's standing in the same place with the same sob story about his incompetence? Even the much-heralded legacy system is a joke (level 37 is indistinguishable from levels 36, 35, 34, ...). There are some other irritations such as the lack of imagination in later quests (oh, more medical supplied to go find, yay), the convoluted yet samey maps (Corellia is so tedious to get around that you can use the droids that always attack you in certain places as landmarks) and the wilful ignoring of common-sense concepts (my XS Freighter Flyby means I can call my spaceship to doe area-of-effect damage, which is great, except it works underground and in Rakata mind traps). These are common across MMOs these days, though, so SW:TOR isn't really alone in that regard.
...
His blog is here: http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/index.html
He has both nice and critical things to say about the game. The upper right-hand corner has a search box. Just type in "Old Republic" and you'll get all his SWTOR posts.
I'm hoping he writes a paper on SWTOR. I'd love to read it.
And if you like developer blogs, here are a couple of others:
There are others. Enjoy.
Comments
Nice read.
It makes me wonder if SWTOR should of put some form of single player raids in addition to the group raids. Make the single player raid incorporate using multiple companions or something. You can still implement progression in a single player or two player raid and since SWTOR is a great single player online game it would of made sense.
I loved leveling my first char in SWTOR but I don't believe that any game can add story based content fast enough to please the players. Any game that wants to do so needs to focus on single player games as the multiplayer aspect will severely suffer. Also, a sub based system is doomed to failure for a story based game.
Damn dude, I can fully understand posting this guys comments, but slipping that Kostor shit in is bogus.
Kostor hasnt done dick in MMOs since UO. SWG was a total clusterfuck under his watch, and his user tool kit set up(forget name) bombed worse than his previous MMO. The man took his ass off to the social gaming arena, so linking his shit around here isnt kosher.
I have heard it said before on FoH, and it bears repeating......Raph wouldnt know fun if someone dick slapped him with it.
From your post of Bartle notes, it appears he does indeed see positives, as well as negatives. Looking at this forum, you would never know that by the amount of hate generated here.
It is amazing the difference between a rational person, and someone entering a forum to stir shit with those playing the game.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Other than the main storyline for your character, the leveling was just a replay of what you did before. So there was never a ton of replay to it in my opinion. I leveled several alts trying to find a character that "felt right". It was tiresome. It was a chore with a few moments of "oh...that was cool..." Before I quit, I was finally and painfully leveling a character that I thought the skills and the playstyle were meshing well. But, it was still very boring at times since it was a different AC of a class I had played before. And there was not anyone left to do heroic 4s with. I guess I could have leveled via pvp, but that was also boring and going from 60fps to .5 fps on a whim was painful in multiple ways.
Sometimes I love this forum. It's hilarious when people freak the fuck out over something so devious and underhanded as a link to a blog...
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
[mod edit]
The blog had some great insights, and it reads like a ship's log of what went wrong. I watched guildies leave, took up roles in the guild for people who left. I justified it to myself and others when we repeated dailies that sportfucked the suspension of disbelief. I gave SWTOR a lot of enthusiasm, and in the end I unsubbed in disgust at what an vapid game this is.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Fuck that....it is simply more "wah we want SWG" shit in new bow. Kostor was not pertinant to this discussion on Bartle. It was a simple appeal to authority, and Kostor isnt an authority on a game being successful, especially one in the themepark genre.
Kostor has jack n shit to say when it comes to this MMO. He already fucked up the SW IP in MMO form. I get it, some of you folks worship the guy. Others of us see his ideas dont sell in the MMO arena, and he tucked tail to run. Feel free to jam the social apps any time ya wish.
Including his BS in what could be an actual discussion thread was simply not required. Then again, maybe when AA launches Brad McQuaid should be linked if he decides to run his yap about it eh? I mean he had success yrs ago, and even though he worked on an entirely sperate focus, we should somehow bow to his words about sandboxes?
Quite frankly it is an insult to bring that asshole Kostor up here. If his ideas actually were popular, we wouldnt be forced to listen to the same individuals wallow about his demise in the MMO sphere. Save that shit for the SWG forums.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
If your game is narrow, it will fail
Your game design must be expansive. Even the coolest game mechanic becomes tiresome after a time. You have to supply alternate ways of playing, or alternate ways of experiencing the world. Otherwise, the players will go to another world where they can have new experiences. This means new additions, or better yet, completely different subgames embedded in the actual game.
Lambert's Laws:
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Yeah, I agree games need side distractions if you dont want folks to tire of them so soon. The question I would ask is how much focus do you put on these alternatives, and what is appropriate.
For TOR there is already space missions, and collecting datacrons. Two obvious ones could go with it....Pazaak, and Speeder racing. Not only does it give folks stuff to do, but a reason to get together in an area.
Stuff like SWG, say alternative class focus? Nah that isnt what this game is about. There is a crafting process in place.
For myself, I like EQ2's plethora of collections. For the completionist gamer, you can get them running circles trying to have em all. Pokeman had nothing on EQ 2 collections.
A best of the best tournament every couple of months so folks can watch the better players of each class compete. Have a process in place that lets players compete in an arena like the Gladiators in the roman empire did to entertain the haves. After a week or two, take the ones with the best stats to compete.
The Rakghoul DE got praise from the players, yet we havent seen anything like it since. For PVP servers, that can really liven up the fighting if event places put the 2 factions into contact.
These are just some ideas to open the game experience up. With the exception of collections, it is all about actual gameplay. The type of things folks playing games in the themepark genre would appreciate.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I agree with most of what the original poster said - except when he says that making the grind faster and easier detracts from the story which, he rightly points out, is the draw that keeps players moving forward.
While making the grind - levelling - faster does indeed burn through the story faster, it also gets you to the story faster.
When I finally finished levelling my main character, the only thing I was interested in was in finding out what happened in the stories of the other classes. However, I was not prepared to plough through all the grinding required to actually exerpience those stories.
By making the grind faster and easier, players now at least are able to experience more of the stories.
I am still not going to resubscribe though - because many of the stories weren't that interesting anyway and the rest of the game is very, very poor.
good call on the EQ2 collections, those were great fun without being a giant pain.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
It was a link to a developer blog lol. It's the same as having a link to the Pizza Hut website on a pizza-related forum if people are interested in more pizza information. Overreact much?
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Been in the TOR forum much?
Mentioning Kostor is another reason to throw a SWG shit fit like so many threads have done since this forum began. Like I said, it wasnt pertinant to the discussion, and an insult to those of us playing. One of the best things to happen to MMORPGs was Kostor going to social apps. He has no business making big budget games.
Now I have been actually trying to add something to the thread. If you have a comment to make, feel free to do so.
EQ2 also had a mechanic that was kind of neat. You could inscribe your name on a landmark. It lasted until the zone reset.
I will always feel MMOs should have the lvls along with skills approach ala EQ. Even when you hit max lvl, chances are you were going to be a while maxing out skills.
Fishing n foraging were ways folks would pass the time as well, but unsure if I would use mechanics like those in a SW game.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I expected to disagree with the OP's post, but I agree. The initial draw of the game was the story. I thought it was a good story, but the rest of the game was, "Meh", and I knew, at the end of the story, there was nothing but the endless raid grind to look forward to. It became fairly obvious the focus on story was not going to last. It really sucked a lot of enjoyment out of the game.
What's the phrase, if wishes were horses, then everyone would ride? I wish they had actually focused on the story aspect of the game and integrated the rest of the game with that, instead of layering the story on top of the standard MMORPG, and then continuing with the standard MMORPG.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If all you have to do in game is combat then most games will end pretty fast. Endgame is a poor design decision and yet again no longevity means no time foir a real community to develop. Nice couple of months of gameplay and stories good value .... But as far as an MMO goes yet again we have no real depth ; no politcs ; housing is poor; Crafting limited; Open world limited
Well worth the gameplay but thats about it ; just hope they get their return on 2-4 months and box sales.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I'll have to disagree with Bartle. The problem wasn't End Game or Story. It was the features within the overall design of the game. They were poorly designed and implemented. The travel system, advanced class system, Flashpoints and Group Content, Itemization, Companions, UI, System Performance, and many other things, all inter-twined within each other. These systems were flawed from the beginning. All these led to an unsatisfactory experience.
Of the items you listed, the only ones I see as probmatic are....
Flashpoints/group content.....no where near enough content at launch for a game folks can lvl fast in.
System performace....the stuttering shit should of been dealt with long ago. No excuse
UI....again something that should of been taken care of long ago. For those that say this game is a wow clone, that is one thing wow showed folks liked(UI preference).
I would add PVP.....either get it right, or simply dont advertise it as important to experience.
I dont agree with the other items, but that is my opinion. And yes...I do agree that stuff plays upon one another. One item as a problem isnt good.....when you have a few things not up to snuff folks get bent.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
All ANYONE had to do was some research on this game ( and that doesnt mean reading the fake reviews we saw here) and it was easily available for anyone to figure out -- this was an MMO in name only -- it is, a SINGLE PLAYER RPG with a $15 monthly fee, and it is as SIMPLE AS THAT. For those of you who fell for this, sorry.
The game has the best level-up experience out there imo. They've got tons of interesting story driven content, they've got group content in there, they've got some well designed instances, etc.
The only major critiques would be that it's too guided sometimes, it's WAY too fast (you outlevel everything by 5 levels if you taste a bit of it all) and there are major differences in the quality of the class storylines (as well as the factions).
They've made PvP into an irritating grind from the start however, the only thing holding players over was the fun of the combat itself, but now that you get blown to smithereens in 5 seconds after patch 1.2 (which completely contradicts their pre-launch goals of making PvP fights last for a while), the fun of that is wearing seriously thin as well. Can't blame people for leaving.
The whole PvE endgame as well is bugged with inadequate and slow responses to the problems that arose and there is no really exciting content to look forward to, not stuff that will bring people back at least (imo).
In general, TOR is a very good game, but some design decisions (or mistakes) that I've experienced playing this game from day 1 of early access just baffle me.
Sigh, dude, the whole damn thing is riddled with group quests from 1-50 (people even complained about it).
You simply didn't play the game.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
You clearly did not even play the game. Pretty much everything at end-game is group focused, even the major daily quests.
You also get a bonus as well as slightly different dialog if you do "solo" quests with someone.
May I ask what kind of features they plan to implement to speed up the levelling, and by how much roughly % the levelling would increase?
Err, the leveling in this game is already way too fast. You can hit 50 in a week of play (when playing quite heavily and skipping dialogue).
They're giving you purchasable XP boosts with legacy, but you'll need a lvl 50 character to make the money required to buy those. I think it's just a couple of percentages as well.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
This is true. I think the optional convinence to speed up leveling so that you can focus on the story that you haven't completed is good. However it makes it very obvious how little unique class story there is with all of the filler that must be replayed.
I personally wish the 1-50 journey was much longer the first play through but thats what you get with a WoW copy kind of themepark.
After all this, the saddest thing is that BW doesn't seem to understand SWTOR's faillings and blames all the players that it was attempting to cater to.