Take MMOs from WoW and onward. People don't want to group or socialize. There is even a button to auto join a group, and 95% of the time, no one even chats or only says a sentence or two if you are lucky. And if someone makes one mistake, they don't have the patience to help them or keep going...they yell "NOOOOOB" and autoquit the group. What happened to MMOers? What happened to the patience and the social aspect of MMOs?
They call you noob and quit the group because they are here for gear. They're here for domination. They're here to feed their supriority complex. Yet, on and on, you refuse to see them. Thing is, I think you're actually one of them. Look at what you are doing here.
You are denouncing 90% of the playerbase. That is as antisocial as it gets.
Excuse me, if you're sitting here denouncing the soloer and calling them selfish, why in the world will they stop being a soloer?
If you're sitting here denouncing a casual for not playing well enough because they do not play as good as you, why would they group with you?
So your problem with people who you disrespect not grouping with you and so you just go on and disrespect them? Or what, I don't get it?
Why would anyone group with you? Have you ever considered that? Perhaps you, and people like you, are the problem, not the people just trying to have fun? Maybe if you didn't start threads like this where you attack everyone, people wouldn't be afraid of everyone and group more often?
I agree with you. There are too few social gamers out there who want to slow down and have fun. There are too many gamers like you.
It's not the themepark mentality. 99% of games are themeparks, I'm sorry. Calling something a themepark mentality doesn't make any sense because that's how games started out. There's nothing wrong with themeparks, nor do they imply it's a "solo RPG", that has absolutely nothing to do with the definition. Can you ever discuss something without using catch-fraces? Or what is this, another "let's beat around the bush while ignoring the problem" thread? Do you just want to whine, or what?
And if you like "sandboxes" that much, why on earth don't you go play one? EVE Online is out there, waiting for you.
By the way, if you have nothing interesting to bring to the table besies YET ANOTHER post about "themeparks suck, sandboxes rock", there's a stickied thread for that. Also, you don't see me going around posting random threads about how sandboxes suck, do you? Or about how sandboxers ruin games?
I saw some /say chat in GW2 Beta weekend. Most of it on what people thought was cool in DEs or thanking folks for getting them back on their feet. If I started to talk, people would talk back. The speech bubble really helps, since everyone can see it unlike in SWTOR, where you can just turn all that off and go single play...TSW also lacking that...
I was repeatedly running into several characters throughout my exploration, and we exchanged some dialogue. If you initiate something, it will probably continue...just look at folks' names beforehand, since Myballsyourface is probably a douchebag compared to someone with a basic or roleplaying name. Most speakers had female avatars, so perhaps more of them were women, but you can never tell that based on their toon alone.
I swear this whole new generation of stupid, greedy, self-centered, rude, aggessive, often times violent gamer is really starting to effect me in a negative way.
I have always been the most helpful, friendly, generous, and giving person, but lately I have just been so tired, and so emotional.
I hate the way people talk to each other these days, not just in game, but everywhere.
I hate the way people treat each other, call it the eliteist mentality, but that doesnt really sum it all up.
I hate the way as we become more and more social we become less and less human.
I am really starting to feel that maybe the internet itself is the catalyst to the total collapse of social morality.
The internet is the worst possible rolemodel for our young people, but sadly the most pervassive.
I've become less social in MMOs because most people are idiots/dicks, thus becoming a dick myself.
It's a vicious cycle.
I think I spent far, far too much time in WoW tanking and carrying people through content.... people who WoW was their first MMO, and it just ruined any sense of patience I once had.
Then again, the games I played before WoW (mostly UO/SWG) were sandboxes and not about instances and gear and holy trinity.
I still blame EQ for everything wrong with this genre.
What are the sequels (spiritual) to UO and SWG?
....
Still haven't found a great PvE sandbox with PvP done right (SWG TEF system was great and Trammel/Felucca split was an ingenius move)
I saw some /say chat in GW2 Beta weekend. Most of it on what people thought was cool in DEs or thanking folks for getting them back on their feet. If I started to talk, people would talk back. The speech bubble really helps, since everyone can see it unlike in SWTOR, where you can just turn all that off and go single play...TSW also lacking that...
I was repeatedly running into several characters throughout my exploration, and we exchanged some dialogue. If you initiate something, it will probably continue...just look at folks' names beforehand, since Myballsyourface is probably a douchebag compared to someone with a basic or roleplaying name. Most speakers had female avatars, so perhaps more of them were women, but you can never tell that based on their toon alone.
The OP hates themeparks, which includes GW2, so he probably doesn't care for what you said here and thinks forced grouping is the ony way. How dare people socialize in the themeparks he hates so much.
I do hope GW2 will end up being more social. I played TSW after GW2 and just couldn't do it. In GW2, multiple players can help each other without joining a group because there are no mechanics that separate them. In TSW, you had like 5-7 people in the same locations doing the same quests, but they actually only kept screwing each other over, taking each other's quests or mobs or what not. It was... depressing. I tried to invite a guy to a group, he rejected. I asked general chat for a group, got nothing. In GW2, that is not an issue because any people on the same area are basically automatically grouped.
Besides that, I had an actual party assemble and roam around for a bit in Ascalon. Followed some elementalist around an did DE's together. Since grouping is basically automatic, it's completely effortless and without problematic side effects, so people don't mind working together.
I think the key to building a community is developing player reputation on a server, which means nothing like a cross-server dungeon finder can be allowed. I think that really screwed up WoW and Rift, the fact that you go into a dungeon and you don't know who's there. My time spent doing dungeons with people on the server was much better, but with an auto-finder, nobody wants to do that, and dungeons/raids are the main content of these games. I'm concerned with GW2's guesting and if they decide to add a cross-server finder (hopefully not, no real reason for it).
Are you kidding? We were still assholes, it's just that game mechanics forced us to cooperate. I saw the transformation as soon as the ability to acquire gear became easier.
Virtually all mmorpg nowadays with exception of some old ones, indie ones or very specific gameplay type ones are made to cater INSTANTLY.
Faster, faster, automatic, blegh.
Dead tired of all those 'automatic' instant join buttons, auto-group search buttons, auto teleport everywhere, instant this, auto-that.
Signs, arrows and highlights everywhere so I don't get lost.
Railed easy, solo experience.
All this with cash shop and monetarize sauce on top.
Seriously I have enough.
Broken, underfinanced,understaffed or /and old games on one hand and railed, limited, structured and monetarized, nicke & dimed and cash shopped on the other.
------------------------
WTB designed for long-term gameplay sandpark or sandbox 'relatively big budget' mmorpg with non-microtransaction business model.
I wonder if I will see anything like that in my life-span again.
------------
PS. People were still assholes back then I agree. Game mechanics forced diffrent behaviour on people. Forced cooperation. Lack of automatic grouping and cross-server things and easy server transfers coupled with more player-dependancy on i.e. crafting made ostracism viable form of keeping assholes in check.
WOW is more fast paced compared to older mmos therefore you are going to have amore fast paced generation of players. But the OP is right in so many ways.
I played Everquest off and on for over 10 years and I recall there being plenty of jerks/idiots in the early days of the game.
Sure, the nearly forced grouping and slower combat encouraged socializing and cooperating, but you still had hordes of people who liked to train, grief, ninja loot, kill steal, camp steal, etc. I also remember plenty of annoying chat in the highly populated low level zones like Oasis, Lake of Ill Omen, and Dreadlands.
I see a big difference between how my gameing experience was in Asherons Call back in the day compared to now.
In AC people hung out in towns, there wasnt quest hubs. the town you hung out in was pretty much your home, it was were you kept your mules (( a mule was a alt character that held onto your items because in those days we didnt have banks and to transfer items to a mule you had to put the item on the ground or trust sombody to hold it. )) yeah i know " trust " sombody to hold a item for you? crazy isnt it?
anyways in todays games you go from quest hub to quest hub and a player who is killing the mobs you need is just in your way. there is no exploreing there is no interaction with others, why would you want that guy in your group anyways? he will nerf your xp. and when sombody dies next to you go ahead and just laugh calling him a noob, now all the mobs are yours to kill so you can move on to the next quest hub and do the same quest all over again just killing different mobs.
in AC i would log in see a bunch of my friends hanging out in town BSing and we would get together and go explore a new part of the land see if we can find a portal for a dungeon, and if we found one lets go to the bottom and see whats there, and since the game was random loot, any mob could drop a item better than what you had on. there was no ( go online and see what boss drops what item and camp him for the next 4 days ) that is stupid.
i could go on for pages of whats wrong with wow games compared to the real MMOs of the past but i wont, most people who were there to experience it know what im talking about.
Are you kidding? We were still assholes, it's just that game mechanics forced us to cooperate. I saw the transformation as soon as the ability to acquire gear became easier.
LOL so true. People are just seeing things through rose colored glasses and only remembering the good times. Am I the only one that remembers all the kill stealing, training, and other various forms of griefing that would occur?
I'll even admit I "trained" a few people back in the day. Most don't even know what training is anymore since it's pretty much a dead form of griefing.
So, I have been playing MMOs since 1999. My first MMO was Asheron's Call, and then moved to SWG after that (until NGE). I then played various MMOs...consisting of: EVE Online, Darkfall, DAOC, Ultima Online (a favorite of mine) and Everquest. As you can see, I have a lot of experience with social-based MMOs.
What all these MMOs have in common is that people were (and still are to a point) a very social atmosphere. In Asheron's Call, groups happened all the time and you met people randomly. You didn't have to hit a looking for group button or spam chat, it just happened naturally. In Ultima Online, PKers gathered together to fight non-PKers and whole wars broke out. EVE Online is the greatest example of a more recent MMO, where it is heavily based on being social. Wars break out, chat flies by, people are everywhere. EVE Online also requires a lot of patience, something modern MMOers just do not have. Even the EVE tutorial requires much patience, and sadly, this new generation of gamers, can't even make it past that to a great game.
Take MMOs from WoW and onward. People don't want to group or socialize. There is even a button to auto join a group, and 95% of the time, no one even chats or only says a sentence or two if you are lucky. And if someone makes one mistake, they don't have the patience to help them or keep going...they yell "NOOOOOB" and autoquit the group. What happened to MMOers? What happened to the patience and the social aspect of MMOs?
One experience I had in WoW. A newbie to dead mines (an instanced dungeon in Westfall, Alliance territory) was tanking for the group. He wasn't bad, but not great either. However, he did not know what "pulling" was and asked in chat. One person in the group said "wtf noob, god this group sucks"...and that was the only two things (the first being the question) said the entire group and the guy "rage" quit the party. Two others followed and the group died.
Obviously, this is due to the themepark mentality, even the same as real themeparks. I call it the the themepark mentality.
The company wants a quick dollar and makes an easy to make themepark game (sandboxes take actual skill to make, especially a good one), that is more singleplayer than multiplayer. Notice how all sandboxes have a heavy social influence to them and require a lot of patience? Themepark MMOs are contradictory...they aren't for people who like to group or socialize, they are for people who like singleplayer games and a chat room, with maybe a group or two a week at end game.
I obviously greatly dislike themeparks as you can tell, and I go in knowing just that. But I play them so I have prove of my claims. Maybe even hope a themepark game comes out with a social atmosphere, but it never does. I am much more of a sandbox fan, which are TRUE MMOs and not singleplayer games with a monthly fee.
I will agree with the patience part but that is a learned response. Information is available instantly.
However I disagree with the social part. There have been several studies showing that youth today are more social than at any other time in recorded history, they are more connected with each other - friends, cellphones, facebook, twitter, blogs. Rarely is any youth actually alone.
Now you can say that they are more ambivalent about their social circle however all the evidence shows that they are indeed more social. However those social tendancies just may not translate well into a game.
Being connected through facebook or texting is FAAAAAR different than back in the 80's or earlier and your friends were right in front of you, sitting on the sidewalk, playing in the neighborhood. Being connected through 1s and 0s is not being with people. Its the definition of social behavior thats changed which makes those "studies" come to the conclusion people want. Being connected through a program and being social is a very different concept. You want an example? Look at what a friendship is defined as now vs what it used to be defined as. What, you think those 1000s of people you're connected with on Facebook or Twitter are your friends? Look at the social abilites of kids who spend the majority of their time not actually talking with people to their faces. Sorry, LOL, but they have no real socail abilities. They're stunted socially. when dealing with real people. On a blog?? They're wild men. They kings. Stick them in a room with people they don't know and whoops. They think being social online is the same thing. Case in point.
If you're in a room by yourself. You're still alone buddy.
I disagree with the OP. I think we veteran MMORPG's were very vocal and very pro-active. When SOE launched the NGE on us and then refused to listen to us, it was the player base that left the game in huge numbers. It became a shell of a game. SWG never recovered from it. When Turbine launched AC2 and didn't give us the "miracle" patch that was promised in beta, it was the players that stood their ground. We started a player based campaign that insured that AC2 would never succeed. It didn't and no longer exist. We were very vocal and very active on gaming websites and we didn't hold our tongues back then either. Unlike today, we have to be very careful what we say or we can get banned. In the old days they made forum boards specifically for players to post rants. You do not see that happening these days.
I think the older players were a lot less forgiving than the newer players - ones that started gaming from about the release of WoW and after. Bitter vets have always been bitter. Hehehe...
I simply think times have changed and there are more games to choose from now. When I grew up there were no instant gratification games to choose from so you didn't have the option to play those. I got used to playing complex and "hardcore" games from the very beginning so now I can't stand playing alot of the in my eyes shallow, instant gratification games that are released today.
If I grew up today I believe there's a big chance I would never discover the deeper and more complex games since there are so many instant gratification games to choose from. It takes time and commitment to get into and learn to appreciate your first deep and complex game so it's not so strange that most people get stuck with games that give enjoyment from the first minute of play and never give other games a chance.
Are you kidding? We were still assholes, it's just that game mechanics forced us to cooperate. I saw the transformation as soon as the ability to acquire gear became easier.
LOL so true. People are just seeing things through rose colored glasses and only remembering the good times. Am I the only one that remembers all the kill stealing, training, and other various forms of griefing that would occur?
I'll even admit I "trained" a few people back in the day. Most don't even know what training is anymore since it's pretty much a dead form of griefing.
Yeah it is amazing that people do not remember those things isn't it. LOL!
I think we that played early on mmos like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, DAOC, EQ1, just aren't willing to put up with mediocrity in an mmo. We've played some of the best there were, so we expect just as good or better. They sure don't make mmo's like they use to, that's for sure.
Are you kidding? We were still assholes, it's just that game mechanics forced us to cooperate. I saw the transformation as soon as the ability to acquire gear became easier.
LOL so true. People are just seeing things through rose colored glasses and only remembering the good times. Am I the only one that remembers all the kill stealing, training, and other various forms of griefing that would occur?
I'll even admit I "trained" a few people back in the day. Most don't even know what training is anymore since it's pretty much a dead form of griefing.
Yeah it is amazing that people do not remember those things isn't it. LOL!
True.
There was fair share of griefers, gankers and assholes out there.
Still there were many game mechanics that minimized those (and also some mechanics that allow types of griefing non-existant today) and allowed to ostracize those that did.
+
mmorpg's desgin, concept and mechanics forced people to cooperate and put them interdependant on many things.
Not talking about forced grouping here, but about things like crafting, finding things and places, trading, etc
No automation and things like AH (player shops much better imo) and much more harsh game world just made much more good (and bad as well !) things possible.
Also in player's interactions.
People were not more patient & social, they had to be more patient & social though. I even knew people who had learn to be more politle and social throgh playing mmorpg's.
as for the newer generation being jerks however, A-holes and dicks in past mmos existed long before the reign of Wow or whatever label people stick on mmo's these days, theme park, sandbox, yogurt, whatever.
I disagree with the OP. I think we veteran MMORPG's were very vocal and very pro-active. When SOE launched the NGE on us and then refused to listen to us, it was the player base that left the game in huge numbers. It became a shell of a game. SWG never recovered from it. When Turbine launched AC2 and didn't give us the "miracle" patch that was promised in beta, it was the players that stood their ground. We started a player based campaign that insured that AC2 would never succeed. It didn't and no longer exist. We were very vocal and very active on gaming websites and we didn't hold our tongues back then either. Unlike today, we have to be very careful what we say or we can get banned. In the old days they made forum boards specifically for players to post rants. You do not see that happening these days.
I think the older players were a lot less forgiving than the newer players - ones that started gaming from about the release of WoW and after. Bitter vets have always been bitter. Hehehe...
Actually I would say some of you guys are a piece of work....and not in a positive light.
I was playing EQ long before SWG even launched. When things didnt work out in SWG, some of you didnt keep the discontent to that game. Instead it was all of Sony to pay cause your game didnt pan out.....including those of us playing EQ.
I have never seen such a collection of childish individuals. Which is sad, cause the bad folks painted the whole as some type of mentally challenged gamers. The crowning acheivement was when a few even went so far as to gloat after Freemans passing.
As bad a game as SWg was, it spawned a segment of gamers which is even worse.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I disagree with the OP. I think we veteran MMORPG's were very vocal and very pro-active. When SOE launched the NGE on us and then refused to listen to us, it was the player base that left the game in huge numbers. It became a shell of a game. SWG never recovered from it. When Turbine launched AC2 and didn't give us the "miracle" patch that was promised in beta, it was the players that stood their ground. We started a player based campaign that insured that AC2 would never succeed. It didn't and no longer exist. We were very vocal and very active on gaming websites and we didn't hold our tongues back then either. Unlike today, we have to be very careful what we say or we can get banned. In the old days they made forum boards specifically for players to post rants. You do not see that happening these days.
I think the older players were a lot less forgiving than the newer players - ones that started gaming from about the release of WoW and after. Bitter vets have always been bitter. Hehehe...
Actually I would say some of you guys are a piece of work....and not in a positive light.
I was playing EQ long before SWG even launched. When things didnt work out in SWG, some of you didnt keep the discontent to that game. Instead it was all of Sony to pay cause your game didnt pan out.....including those of us playing EQ.
I have never seen such a collection of childish individuals. Which is sad, cause the bad folks painted the whole as some type of mentally challenged gamers. The crowning acheivement was when a few even went so far as to gloat after Freemans passing.
As bad a game as SWg was, it spawned a segment of gamers which is even worse.
Was wondering when I will learn source of your deep rooted hate for sandboxes and sandboxers.
Seem I finally did. Some guys trolled and flamed SOE back in the day which you believe (rightly or not) had huge effect on your beloved EQ.
Damn man and you're throwing sentences about spawning bad segment of gamers?
Hmm...lessee....I remember my EQ days...we totally didn't have to sit in EC spamming for hours begging for an invite to a dervish camp to level.That never happened.
Also, this thread makes me want to hike my pants up to my nipples and start saying things like "You whippersnappers!".
I swear this whole new generation of stupid, greedy, self-centered, rude, aggessive, often times violent gamer is really starting to effect me in a negative way.
I have always been the most helpful, friendly, generous, and giving person, but lately I have just been so tired, and so emotional.
I hate the way people talk to each other these days, not just in game, but everywhere.
I hate the way people treat each other, call it the eliteist mentality, but that doesnt really sum it all up.
I hate the way as we become more and more social we become less and less human.
I am really starting to feel that maybe the internet itself is the catalyst to the total collapse of social morality.
The internet is the worst possible rolemodel for our young people, but sadly the most pervassive.
Agree, I also read an article that my sister who works at Google gave me linking Google with a decline in certain memory functions in people because some part of the brain isnt being 'trained' for memory as it once was in the time before the great Oracle of knowledge that is now Google. Interesting times.
Maybe getting rid of World/Regional chat and going back to communicating in 'chat bubbles' wouldnt be a bad thing.
UO beta, etc etc ---> present day. Currently in LOTRO while waiting for another DAOC to arrive!.
Comments
They call you noob and quit the group because they are here for gear. They're here for domination. They're here to feed their supriority complex. Yet, on and on, you refuse to see them. Thing is, I think you're actually one of them. Look at what you are doing here.
You are denouncing 90% of the playerbase. That is as antisocial as it gets.
Excuse me, if you're sitting here denouncing the soloer and calling them selfish, why in the world will they stop being a soloer?
If you're sitting here denouncing a casual for not playing well enough because they do not play as good as you, why would they group with you?
So your problem with people who you disrespect not grouping with you and so you just go on and disrespect them? Or what, I don't get it?
Why would anyone group with you? Have you ever considered that? Perhaps you, and people like you, are the problem, not the people just trying to have fun? Maybe if you didn't start threads like this where you attack everyone, people wouldn't be afraid of everyone and group more often?
I agree with you. There are too few social gamers out there who want to slow down and have fun. There are too many gamers like you.
It's not the themepark mentality. 99% of games are themeparks, I'm sorry. Calling something a themepark mentality doesn't make any sense because that's how games started out. There's nothing wrong with themeparks, nor do they imply it's a "solo RPG", that has absolutely nothing to do with the definition. Can you ever discuss something without using catch-fraces? Or what is this, another "let's beat around the bush while ignoring the problem" thread? Do you just want to whine, or what?
And if you like "sandboxes" that much, why on earth don't you go play one? EVE Online is out there, waiting for you.
By the way, if you have nothing interesting to bring to the table besies YET ANOTHER post about "themeparks suck, sandboxes rock", there's a stickied thread for that. Also, you don't see me going around posting random threads about how sandboxes suck, do you? Or about how sandboxers ruin games?
I saw some /say chat in GW2 Beta weekend. Most of it on what people thought was cool in DEs or thanking folks for getting them back on their feet. If I started to talk, people would talk back. The speech bubble really helps, since everyone can see it unlike in SWTOR, where you can just turn all that off and go single play...TSW also lacking that...
I was repeatedly running into several characters throughout my exploration, and we exchanged some dialogue. If you initiate something, it will probably continue...just look at folks' names beforehand, since Myballsyourface is probably a douchebag compared to someone with a basic or roleplaying name. Most speakers had female avatars, so perhaps more of them were women, but you can never tell that based on their toon alone.
Amen OP,
I swear this whole new generation of stupid, greedy, self-centered, rude, aggessive, often times violent gamer is really starting to effect me in a negative way.
I have always been the most helpful, friendly, generous, and giving person, but lately I have just been so tired, and so emotional.
I hate the way people talk to each other these days, not just in game, but everywhere.
I hate the way people treat each other, call it the eliteist mentality, but that doesnt really sum it all up.
I hate the way as we become more and more social we become less and less human.
I am really starting to feel that maybe the internet itself is the catalyst to the total collapse of social morality.
The internet is the worst possible rolemodel for our young people, but sadly the most pervassive.
I've become less social in MMOs because most people are idiots/dicks, thus becoming a dick myself.
It's a vicious cycle.
I think I spent far, far too much time in WoW tanking and carrying people through content.... people who WoW was their first MMO, and it just ruined any sense of patience I once had.
Then again, the games I played before WoW (mostly UO/SWG) were sandboxes and not about instances and gear and holy trinity.
I still blame EQ for everything wrong with this genre.
What are the sequels (spiritual) to UO and SWG?
....
Still haven't found a great PvE sandbox with PvP done right (SWG TEF system was great and Trammel/Felucca split was an ingenius move)
The OP hates themeparks, which includes GW2, so he probably doesn't care for what you said here and thinks forced grouping is the ony way.
How dare people socialize in the themeparks he hates so much.
I do hope GW2 will end up being more social. I played TSW after GW2 and just couldn't do it. In GW2, multiple players can help each other without joining a group because there are no mechanics that separate them. In TSW, you had like 5-7 people in the same locations doing the same quests, but they actually only kept screwing each other over, taking each other's quests or mobs or what not. It was... depressing. I tried to invite a guy to a group, he rejected. I asked general chat for a group, got nothing. In GW2, that is not an issue because any people on the same area are basically automatically grouped.
Besides that, I had an actual party assemble and roam around for a bit in Ascalon. Followed some elementalist around an did DE's together. Since grouping is basically automatic, it's completely effortless and without problematic side effects, so people don't mind working together.
I think the key to building a community is developing player reputation on a server, which means nothing like a cross-server dungeon finder can be allowed. I think that really screwed up WoW and Rift, the fact that you go into a dungeon and you don't know who's there. My time spent doing dungeons with people on the server was much better, but with an auto-finder, nobody wants to do that, and dungeons/raids are the main content of these games. I'm concerned with GW2's guesting and if they decide to add a cross-server finder (hopefully not, no real reason for it).
Are you kidding? We were still assholes, it's just that game mechanics forced us to cooperate. I saw the transformation as soon as the ability to acquire gear became easier.
People affect game design.
Game design affect people.
Two of those things are happening at same time.
Virtually all mmorpg nowadays with exception of some old ones, indie ones or very specific gameplay type ones are made to cater INSTANTLY.
Faster, faster, automatic, blegh.
Dead tired of all those 'automatic' instant join buttons, auto-group search buttons, auto teleport everywhere, instant this, auto-that.
Signs, arrows and highlights everywhere so I don't get lost.
Railed easy, solo experience.
All this with cash shop and monetarize sauce on top.
Seriously I have enough.
Broken, underfinanced,understaffed or /and old games on one hand and railed, limited, structured and monetarized, nicke & dimed and cash shopped on the other.
------------------------
WTB designed for long-term gameplay sandpark or sandbox 'relatively big budget' mmorpg with non-microtransaction business model.
I wonder if I will see anything like that in my life-span again.
------------
PS. People were still assholes back then I agree. Game mechanics forced diffrent behaviour on people. Forced cooperation. Lack of automatic grouping and cross-server things and easy server transfers coupled with more player-dependancy on i.e. crafting made ostracism viable form of keeping assholes in check.
WTB that kind of game design.
I dunno if somehow you are trying to exclude yourself.
Ever think for a second and read what you just posted "OP."
The games you listed obviously didn't keep your interest long enough for you to stick around. You moved on just like everyone else.
WOW is more fast paced compared to older mmos therefore you are going to have amore fast paced generation of players. But the OP is right in so many ways.
I played Everquest off and on for over 10 years and I recall there being plenty of jerks/idiots in the early days of the game.
Sure, the nearly forced grouping and slower combat encouraged socializing and cooperating, but you still had hordes of people who liked to train, grief, ninja loot, kill steal, camp steal, etc. I also remember plenty of annoying chat in the highly populated low level zones like Oasis, Lake of Ill Omen, and Dreadlands.
I see a big difference between how my gameing experience was in Asherons Call back in the day compared to now.
In AC people hung out in towns, there wasnt quest hubs. the town you hung out in was pretty much your home, it was were you kept your mules (( a mule was a alt character that held onto your items because in those days we didnt have banks and to transfer items to a mule you had to put the item on the ground or trust sombody to hold it. )) yeah i know " trust " sombody to hold a item for you? crazy isnt it?
anyways in todays games you go from quest hub to quest hub and a player who is killing the mobs you need is just in your way. there is no exploreing there is no interaction with others, why would you want that guy in your group anyways? he will nerf your xp. and when sombody dies next to you go ahead and just laugh calling him a noob, now all the mobs are yours to kill so you can move on to the next quest hub and do the same quest all over again just killing different mobs.
in AC i would log in see a bunch of my friends hanging out in town BSing and we would get together and go explore a new part of the land see if we can find a portal for a dungeon, and if we found one lets go to the bottom and see whats there, and since the game was random loot, any mob could drop a item better than what you had on. there was no ( go online and see what boss drops what item and camp him for the next 4 days ) that is stupid.
i could go on for pages of whats wrong with wow games compared to the real MMOs of the past but i wont, most people who were there to experience it know what im talking about.
LOL so true. People are just seeing things through rose colored glasses and only remembering the good times. Am I the only one that remembers all the kill stealing, training, and other various forms of griefing that would occur?
I'll even admit I "trained" a few people back in the day. Most don't even know what training is anymore since it's pretty much a dead form of griefing.
Being connected through facebook or texting is FAAAAAR different than back in the 80's or earlier and your friends were right in front of you, sitting on the sidewalk, playing in the neighborhood. Being connected through 1s and 0s is not being with people. Its the definition of social behavior thats changed which makes those "studies" come to the conclusion people want. Being connected through a program and being social is a very different concept. You want an example? Look at what a friendship is defined as now vs what it used to be defined as. What, you think those 1000s of people you're connected with on Facebook or Twitter are your friends? Look at the social abilites of kids who spend the majority of their time not actually talking with people to their faces. Sorry, LOL, but they have no real socail abilities. They're stunted socially. when dealing with real people. On a blog?? They're wild men. They kings. Stick them in a room with people they don't know and whoops. They think being social online is the same thing. Case in point.
If you're in a room by yourself. You're still alone buddy.
I disagree with the OP. I think we veteran MMORPG's were very vocal and very pro-active. When SOE launched the NGE on us and then refused to listen to us, it was the player base that left the game in huge numbers. It became a shell of a game. SWG never recovered from it. When Turbine launched AC2 and didn't give us the "miracle" patch that was promised in beta, it was the players that stood their ground. We started a player based campaign that insured that AC2 would never succeed. It didn't and no longer exist. We were very vocal and very active on gaming websites and we didn't hold our tongues back then either. Unlike today, we have to be very careful what we say or we can get banned. In the old days they made forum boards specifically for players to post rants. You do not see that happening these days.
I think the older players were a lot less forgiving than the newer players - ones that started gaming from about the release of WoW and after. Bitter vets have always been bitter. Hehehe...
I simply think times have changed and there are more games to choose from now. When I grew up there were no instant gratification games to choose from so you didn't have the option to play those. I got used to playing complex and "hardcore" games from the very beginning so now I can't stand playing alot of the in my eyes shallow, instant gratification games that are released today.
If I grew up today I believe there's a big chance I would never discover the deeper and more complex games since there are so many instant gratification games to choose from. It takes time and commitment to get into and learn to appreciate your first deep and complex game so it's not so strange that most people get stuck with games that give enjoyment from the first minute of play and never give other games a chance.
Yeah it is amazing that people do not remember those things isn't it. LOL!
I think we that played early on mmos like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, DAOC, EQ1, just aren't willing to put up with mediocrity in an mmo. We've played some of the best there were, so we expect just as good or better. They sure don't make mmo's like they use to, that's for sure.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
True.
There was fair share of griefers, gankers and assholes out there.
Still there were many game mechanics that minimized those (and also some mechanics that allow types of griefing non-existant today) and allowed to ostracize those that did.
+
mmorpg's desgin, concept and mechanics forced people to cooperate and put them interdependant on many things.
Not talking about forced grouping here, but about things like crafting, finding things and places, trading, etc
No automation and things like AH (player shops much better imo) and much more harsh game world just made much more good (and bad as well !) things possible.
Also in player's interactions.
People were not more patient & social, they had to be more patient & social though. I even knew people who had learn to be more politle and social throgh playing mmorpg's.
It was good thing.
I disagree
but
as for the newer generation being jerks however, A-holes and dicks in past mmos existed long before the reign of Wow or whatever label people stick on mmo's these days, theme park, sandbox, yogurt, whatever.
Actually I would say some of you guys are a piece of work....and not in a positive light.
I was playing EQ long before SWG even launched. When things didnt work out in SWG, some of you didnt keep the discontent to that game. Instead it was all of Sony to pay cause your game didnt pan out.....including those of us playing EQ.
I have never seen such a collection of childish individuals. Which is sad, cause the bad folks painted the whole as some type of mentally challenged gamers. The crowning acheivement was when a few even went so far as to gloat after Freemans passing.
As bad a game as SWg was, it spawned a segment of gamers which is even worse.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Was wondering when I will learn source of your deep rooted hate for sandboxes and sandboxers.
Seem I finally did. Some guys trolled and flamed SOE back in the day which you believe (rightly or not) had huge effect on your beloved EQ.
Damn man and you're throwing sentences about spawning bad segment of gamers?
Look in the mirror.
Old gamers was patient cause they got no life.
Groups happened naturally?
Hmm...lessee....I remember my EQ days...we totally didn't have to sit in EC spamming for hours begging for an invite to a dervish camp to level.That never happened.
Also, this thread makes me want to hike my pants up to my nipples and start saying things like "You whippersnappers!".
Agree, I also read an article that my sister who works at Google gave me linking Google with a decline in certain memory functions in people because some part of the brain isnt being 'trained' for memory as it once was in the time before the great Oracle of knowledge that is now Google. Interesting times.
Maybe getting rid of World/Regional chat and going back to communicating in 'chat bubbles' wouldnt be a bad thing.
UO beta, etc etc ---> present day.
Currently in LOTRO while waiting for another DAOC to arrive!.