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What Swtor needs to last 8 years like SWG did.

2

Comments

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Member UncommonPosts: 793

    Hmmm, where's that reverse-NGE thread again?

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • oarkingoarking Member UncommonPosts: 7
    Originally posted by SumterSide

    What SWTOR needs to last 8 years:

    Get rid of EA

     

    /thread

    as long as bioware goes with them you've got my vote. to say the past few years have been an embarassment is an understatement.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff Member Posts: 654

    Depends what you call "lasting".

    Will a couple of hundred people still be playing in 8 years. No doubt. Warhammer Online is like that, and it's made by the same people.

    Will it be a successful MMO in 8 years? Not a chance. It is already dead, EA has stripped SWTOR of resources and money.

    SWTOR won't see much content updates or anything (though they will keep promising the world, as they have done so far, and as they did in Warhammer), the game is in dead mode, maintenance.

    That means: bleed the people for subs till there's no one left.

    It's really exactly the same as what the same people did to Warhammer, so it's strange that people don't see it immediately. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

    image

  • oarkingoarking Member UncommonPosts: 7
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Depends what you call "lasting".

    Will a couple of hundred people still be playing in 8 years. No doubt. Warhammer Online is like that, and it's made by the same people.

    Will it be a successful MMO in 8 years? Not a chance. It is already dead, EA has stripped SWTOR of resources and money.

    SWTOR won't see much content updates or anything (though they will keep promising the world, as they have done so far, and as they did in Warhammer), the game is in dead mode, maintenance.

    That means: bleed the people for subs till there's no one left.

    It's really exactly the same as what the same people did to Warhammer, so it's strange that people don't see it immediately. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

    they already announced they're looking at f2p models. if they do that right the game may come to a soft landing before it ends instead of wrecking. if they made major adjustments to the gameplay and class system they could stay afloat, but that'll never happen. sw:kotor is still unplayable on a majority of platforms thanks to the lack of bugfixes.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667

    Dev’s share information with each other throughout the industry. SOE had the two biggest games with player housing, EQ2 & SWG. What did they share as lessons learned from this? Player housing is waste of time and money. The only use of player housing as Dev’s see it is an exploit to the limitations of player bank storage. Player housing is rarely used as a social hub. I don't have the data to back it, but I estimate the percentage of housing used on a regular basis as a social hub to be less than 1% (0.07%).

    The two factions have mirror classes This is to simplify balance but it is also to share animation resources across factions and get double use out of them. One class has an ability called “Death from Above”. This is a single use animation, it creates the illusion of difference and so its expense is tolerated.

    A factionless class scheme would mean wasted cutscenes. When you have a branching storyline, every branch that is not followed is seen as wasted development money. Image a divergent branch where where 80% of the player base goes option A and 20% go option B. What happens during development? Option B is seen as having a diminishing return on investment, so it’s cut to maximize profits.

    The only professions I didn’t try in SWG were politician, combat medic, & ranger. All 11 of my characters on the Tarquins server had been entertainers at one time. But I also know that the number one things players hated about SWG was the dependence on the utility classes, Doctors & Entertainers.

    The same holds for crafters. People like to hold SWG economy up as a shining example of complexity and player control. But players hate being at the mercy of other players for gear. That is why time and time again we see crafting diminished to a third tier below PvE and PvP.

     

    SWTOR is its own game, and making it like SWG is not the answer. SWG 2.0 has to be made on its own. What would I do? Add an options flag to replace VO quests with a single quest dialog with an accept / decline option to simplify questing. Many people have expressed a dissatisfaction with the VO side quests. If players could streamline with options what level or to what degree they have to sit through VO. Some players only want the main storyline, others want it all. Others still would rather a quest dialog that says “Kill 10 of X” press accept.

    General level design, the most used Republic cantina is also the smallest floor plan. Problems with group finding and PvP are on everyone's list so I will leave them off mine.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • teakboisteakbois Member Posts: 2,154

    Didnt read thread, but there is only one reason SWG lasted 8 years:  SoE.  Any other studio would have shut the game down a year or so after the NGE

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987

    so uh, Thanks SOE!

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Member UncommonPosts: 1,703
    Originally posted by Scot

    SWG is eight or nine years old, your thinking is 8/9 years old too.

    You seem to think MMO's are made to last years, they are not. They used to be but the huge numbers of them, a very migratory player base and the take over by corporate ideology has changed all that.

    They now release like a solo game. Did the box sales and first few months subs make their investment and a big profit for TOR? The answer is yes  More likely no, unless you aren't counting the developement cost and going on publishing only.. Do MMO companies want to be putting money into a game with a dwinderling population? The answer is no.

    SWTOR made its money, now it will be wound down. The staff numbers have already been cut, it's there to see. This wind down may take a few years, but the idea they will put in all you say is a non starter.

    MMO players need to wake up and smell that corporate coffee. They are not making MMO's like we used to play anymore, we now only get a solo game wrapped up in a MMO box.   

     

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Dev’s share information with each other throughout the industry. SOE had the two biggest games with player housing, EQ2 & SWG. What did they share as lessons learned from this? Player housing is waste of time and money. The only use of player housing as Dev’s see it is an exploit to the limitations of player bank storage. Player housing is rarely used as a social hub. I don't have the data to back it, but I estimate the percentage of housing used on a regular basis as a social hub to be less than 1% (0.07%).

    The two factions have mirror classes This is to simplify balance but it is also to share animation resources across factions and get double use out of them. One class has an ability called “Death from Above”. This is a single use animation, it creates the illusion of difference and so its expense is tolerated.

    A factionless class scheme would mean wasted cutscenes. When you have a branching storyline, every branch that is not followed is seen as wasted development money. Image a divergent branch where where 80% of the player base goes option A and 20% go option B. What happens during development? Option B is seen as having a diminishing return on investment, so it’s cut to maximize profits.

    The only professions I didn’t try in SWG were politician, combat medic, & ranger. All 11 of my characters on the Tarquins server had been entertainers at one time. But I also know that the number one things players hated about SWG was the dependence on the utility classes, Doctors & Entertainers.

    The same holds for crafters. People like to hold SWG economy up as a shining example of complexity and player control. But players hate being at the mercy of other players for gear. That is why time and time again we see crafting diminished to a third tier below PvE and PvP.

     

    SWTOR is its own game, and making it like SWG is not the answer. SWG 2.0 has to be made on its own. What would I do? Add an options flag to replace VO quests with a single quest dialog with an accept / decline option to simplify questing. Many people have expressed a dissatisfaction with the VO side quests. If players could streamline with options what level or to what degree they have to sit through VO. Some players only want the main storyline, others want it all. Others still would rather a quest dialog that says “Kill 10 of X” press accept.

    General level design, the most used Republic cantina is also the smallest floor plan. Problems with group finding and PvP are on everyone's list so I will leave them off mine.

    I like some of your ideas but by and large what kills SWTOR is lack of features/options. Your path is dictated to you at all turns, and every system in the game is super simple.

     

    By your analysis, player housing was a waste of time and money (because you didn't like it?) but there are just too many reports from players who said they loved their house and used it as a marketplace for me to go along with this.

    Developers are trying to change player behavior to meet their needs versus the other way around. Some supposed potatoheaded game developer was talking on these forums about players whining--which is profoundly ignorant as these are customers indicating where they will put their money. You can be a lazy ass penny pincher, but when your game goes sub-zero because it is a one-trick pony, you know what your kick back time bought you.

    People may have been annoyed at dependence upon other players, but the alternative is to have the game hand you every thing in trade for time. Same difference really, you just get it frm a vendor instead of a player. Why not give players some meaning to their crafting instead of it being the big waste of time add-on that it is in SWTOR. The NPC vendors can deliver better than what you can make, so why soak time and money into it except to outfit your alts? Even then, you could probably just go to the NPC vendors and save money/time.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Elikal

    What SWTOR needs to last 8 years? A miracle! Or a time machine!

    On the other hand is the fact that SWG lasted that long a miracle already. Anyone but SOE would have cancelled the game 6 months after the NGE.

    I still think TOR can be saved, they just need to focus on the multiplaying aspects of the game. They probably need to change to F2P as well though, but with a huge effort in making the game more of a MMO and less of a singleplayer game it can work.

    The singleplayer game and the basic systems are not bad and most people enjoy it about the same time they enjoy a singleplayer game. If they can get the MMO part right people would play it for years.

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419

    what will you get?

    legacy more legacy crap to grind for points and then regrind for credits, and a few overly scripted chunks of predictable and mundane pve.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987

    I think at this point their only focus is to keep their jobs.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by SumterSide

    What SWTOR needs to last 8 years:

    Get rid of EA

     

    /thread

    /thread

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • Oph8Oph8 Member Posts: 177
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by SumterSide

    What SWTOR needs to last 8 years:

    Get rid of EA

     

    /thread

    /thread

      +1

    "Everything is mine and your woman too"

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987

    They need to be able to adjust the game and put out content at some rate better than the speed of smell.

    What the hell are they doing over there? Hero engine is supposed to allow for quick use of tools to build environments, they have the game built out, and yet the pace of introduction makes Trion look like the world champions of content creation. Does it take congressional approval to put ranked warzones in? Every day that goes by I see unsub posts stating: No content, no updates to content, gameplay boring, space sucks.

    I saw a post on this on the official SWTOR forums today (of course that guy was flamed for questioning Bioware's ability) and I had to agree.

    It's not like there hasn't been feedback ad nauseum from the players.

    A flow of new content, at least at this stage, could help them at least a little.

     

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,654
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    They need to be able to adjust the game and put out content at some rate better than the speed of smell.

    What the hell are they doing over there? Hero engine is supposed to allow for quick use of tools to build environments, they have the game built out, and yet the pace of introduction makes Trion look like the world champions of content creation. Does it take congressional approval to put ranked warzones in? Every day that goes by I see unsub posts stating: No content, no updates to content, gameplay boring, space sucks.

    I saw a post on this on the official SWTOR forums today (of course that guy was flamed for questioning Bioware's ability) and I had to agree.

    It's not like there hasn't been feedback ad nauseum from the players.

    A flow of new content, at least at this stage, could help them at least a little.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a statement from BW about having a year's worth of content already done before launch? Of course, I don't believe them, but I could have sworn that this was stated.

     

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    They need to be able to adjust the game and put out content at some rate better than the speed of smell.

    What the hell are they doing over there? Hero engine is supposed to allow for quick use of tools to build environments, they have the game built out, and yet the pace of introduction makes Trion look like the world champions of content creation. Does it take congressional approval to put ranked warzones in? Every day that goes by I see unsub posts stating: No content, no updates to content, gameplay boring, space sucks.

    I saw a post on this on the official SWTOR forums today (of course that guy was flamed for questioning Bioware's ability) and I had to agree.

    It's not like there hasn't been feedback ad nauseum from the players.

    A flow of new content, at least at this stage, could help them at least a little.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a statement from BW about having a year's worth of content already done before launch? Of course, I don't believe them, but I could have sworn that this was stated.

     

    I remember that. I don't get it, it's like they threw their hands up and said, "fuck it."

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • BardusBardus Member Posts: 460
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    They need to be able to adjust the game and put out content at some rate better than the speed of smell.

    What the hell are they doing over there? Hero engine is supposed to allow for quick use of tools to build environments, they have the game built out, and yet the pace of introduction makes Trion look like the world champions of content creation. Does it take congressional approval to put ranked warzones in? Every day that goes by I see unsub posts stating: No content, no updates to content, gameplay boring, space sucks.

    I saw a post on this on the official SWTOR forums today (of course that guy was flamed for questioning Bioware's ability) and I had to agree.

    It's not like there hasn't been feedback ad nauseum from the players.

    A flow of new content, at least at this stage, could help them at least a little.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a statement from BW about having a year's worth of content already done before launch? Of course, I don't believe them, but I could have sworn that this was stated.

     

    I remember that. I don't get it, it's like they threw their hands up and said, "fuck it."

    Now that you mention it I think there was some boasting about how much they had. Surpised it hasn't been brought up a lot. I have no clue where to find those statements now. Well we can find it with all that 200 hours of unique voice overs per class false advertising stuff.  Also another thing soon forgotten is when 1.2 patch came out they said that every month  there will be content patches for now on. We're on 2 months since then and I think this week will be the 1st if they release 1.3. Can't believe people aren't calling foul ball no more than they are.

    image

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,654
    Originally posted by Bardus
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    They need to be able to adjust the game and put out content at some rate better than the speed of smell.

    What the hell are they doing over there? Hero engine is supposed to allow for quick use of tools to build environments, they have the game built out, and yet the pace of introduction makes Trion look like the world champions of content creation. Does it take congressional approval to put ranked warzones in? Every day that goes by I see unsub posts stating: No content, no updates to content, gameplay boring, space sucks.

    I saw a post on this on the official SWTOR forums today (of course that guy was flamed for questioning Bioware's ability) and I had to agree.

    It's not like there hasn't been feedback ad nauseum from the players.

    A flow of new content, at least at this stage, could help them at least a little.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a statement from BW about having a year's worth of content already done before launch? Of course, I don't believe them, but I could have sworn that this was stated.

     

    I remember that. I don't get it, it's like they threw their hands up and said, "fuck it."

    Now that you mention it I think there was some boasting about how much they had. Surpised it hasn't been brought up a lot. I have no clue where to find those statements now. Well we can find it with all that 200 hours of unique voice overs per class false advertising stuff.  Also another thing soon forgotten is when 1.2 patch came out they said that every month  there will be content patches for now on. We're on 2 months since then and I think this week will be the 1st if they release 1.3. Can't believe people aren't calling foul ball no more than they are.

    Because nobody is in the stands except the 5 fat guys with their shirts off with S-W-T-O-R letters painted on their hairy beer guts. Everyone else went home during the 3rd inning.

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by Bardus
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    They need to be able to adjust the game and put out content at some rate better than the speed of smell.

    What the hell are they doing over there? Hero engine is supposed to allow for quick use of tools to build environments, they have the game built out, and yet the pace of introduction makes Trion look like the world champions of content creation. Does it take congressional approval to put ranked warzones in? Every day that goes by I see unsub posts stating: No content, no updates to content, gameplay boring, space sucks.

    I saw a post on this on the official SWTOR forums today (of course that guy was flamed for questioning Bioware's ability) and I had to agree.

    It's not like there hasn't been feedback ad nauseum from the players.

    A flow of new content, at least at this stage, could help them at least a little.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a statement from BW about having a year's worth of content already done before launch? Of course, I don't believe them, but I could have sworn that this was stated.

     

    I remember that. I don't get it, it's like they threw their hands up and said, "fuck it."

    Now that you mention it I think there was some boasting about how much they had. Surpised it hasn't been brought up a lot. I have no clue where to find those statements now. Well we can find it with all that 200 hours of unique voice overs per class false advertising stuff.  Also another thing soon forgotten is when 1.2 patch came out they said that every month  there will be content patches for now on. We're on 2 months since then and I think this week will be the 1st if they release 1.3. Can't believe people aren't calling foul ball no more than they are.

    Because nobody is in the stands except the 5 fat guys with their shirts off with S-W-T-O-R letters painted on their hairy beer guts. Everyone else went home during the 3rd inning.

    lol. It's probably true that the only ones left are the ones trying it for the first time, and players who will suffer any level of neglect and keep playing.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Dev’s share information with each other throughout the industry. SOE had the two biggest games with player housing, EQ2 & SWG. What did they share as lessons learned from this? Player housing is waste of time and money. The only use of player housing as Dev’s see it is an exploit to the limitations of player bank storage. Player housing is rarely used as a social hub. I don't have the data to back it, but I estimate the percentage of housing used on a regular basis as a social hub to be less than 1% (0.07%).

    The two factions have mirror classes This is to simplify balance but it is also to share animation resources across factions and get double use out of them. One class has an ability called “Death from Above”. This is a single use animation, it creates the illusion of difference and so its expense is tolerated.

    A factionless class scheme would mean wasted cutscenes. When you have a branching storyline, every branch that is not followed is seen as wasted development money. Image a divergent branch where where 80% of the player base goes option A and 20% go option B. What happens during development? Option B is seen as having a diminishing return on investment, so it’s cut to maximize profits.

    The only professions I didn’t try in SWG were politician, combat medic, & ranger. All 11 of my characters on the Tarquins server had been entertainers at one time. But I also know that the number one things players hated about SWG was the dependence on the utility classes, Doctors & Entertainers.

    The same holds for crafters. People like to hold SWG economy up as a shining example of complexity and player control. But players hate being at the mercy of other players for gear. That is why time and time again we see crafting diminished to a third tier below PvE and PvP.

     

    SWTOR is its own game, and making it like SWG is not the answer. SWG 2.0 has to be made on its own. What would I do? Add an options flag to replace VO quests with a single quest dialog with an accept / decline option to simplify questing. Many people have expressed a dissatisfaction with the VO side quests. If players could streamline with options what level or to what degree they have to sit through VO. Some players only want the main storyline, others want it all. Others still would rather a quest dialog that says “Kill 10 of X” press accept.

    General level design, the most used Republic cantina is also the smallest floor plan. Problems with group finding and PvP are on everyone's list so I will leave them off mine.


    I'm glad you said this. Most of the people that talk about SWG speak of how wonderful it is to have utility classes they have to depend on. I don't supposed that it would work if you could have the option to avoid it at a high cost of credits or time. could it?

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO Member UncommonPosts: 1,326
    Originally posted by Bardus
    *snip*

    Now that you mention it I think there was some boasting about how much they had. Surpised it hasn't been brought up a lot. I have no clue where to find those statements now. Well we can find it with all that 200 hours of unique voice overs per class false advertising stuff.  Also another thing soon forgotten is when 1.2 patch came out they said that every month  there will be content patches for now on. We're on 2 months since then and I think this week will be the 1st if they release 1.3. Can't believe people aren't calling foul ball no more than they are.

     The 200 hours was a (broad average) estimate of how much time it would take to level a class to cap. It was turned into 200 hours of unique class content by a few fanbois, but it was never stated by BioWare. They didn't deny it of course, but they never said it either.

    Still I'm sure they made a few promises they haven't managed to deliver on (yet?).

    imageimage
  • Twisted77Twisted77 Member UncommonPosts: 89
    8years?

    An immediate investment of $30-50 million to fix/revamp/add to core gameplay, immersion, and content.

  • Ghost12Ghost12 Member Posts: 684
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by Bardus
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    They need to be able to adjust the game and put out content at some rate better than the speed of smell.

    What the hell are they doing over there? Hero engine is supposed to allow for quick use of tools to build environments, they have the game built out, and yet the pace of introduction makes Trion look like the world champions of content creation. Does it take congressional approval to put ranked warzones in? Every day that goes by I see unsub posts stating: No content, no updates to content, gameplay boring, space sucks.

    I saw a post on this on the official SWTOR forums today (of course that guy was flamed for questioning Bioware's ability) and I had to agree.

    It's not like there hasn't been feedback ad nauseum from the players.

    A flow of new content, at least at this stage, could help them at least a little.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a statement from BW about having a year's worth of content already done before launch? Of course, I don't believe them, but I could have sworn that this was stated.

     

    I remember that. I don't get it, it's like they threw their hands up and said, "fuck it."

    Now that you mention it I think there was some boasting about how much they had. Surpised it hasn't been brought up a lot. I have no clue where to find those statements now. Well we can find it with all that 200 hours of unique voice overs per class false advertising stuff.  Also another thing soon forgotten is when 1.2 patch came out they said that every month  there will be content patches for now on. We're on 2 months since then and I think this week will be the 1st if they release 1.3. Can't believe people aren't calling foul ball no more than they are.

    Because nobody is in the stands except the 5 fat guys with their shirts off with S-W-T-O-R letters painted on their hairy beer guts. Everyone else went home during the 3rd inning.

     

    AHAHHAHAHAH LOOL SO FUNNY YET SO TRUE.

    +1

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