One overlooked reason devs may want to not bother with housing is the douchebag factor. Create an awesome housing system and there is a 100% chance that some Mortal Online/Darkfall douchebag is going to demand that they be able to burn down your house and steal all your stuff.
Trying to build a system to avoid or minimize that results in systems like instanced or specially protected private housing that ends up feeling half-assed and lazy. The other option is to build out a full structure damage/defense siege system for housing and towns that may not even fit the orginal game concept.
They should offer the option to build you house is a protected area or non-protected area. I'm guessing there would be a lot of pvp players that would love to build a house and fight to protect it.
1. not to split hairs but you did say 'game' not MMO. That said, throwing in the best selling single player game in gaming history as evidence DOES hold water regardless of if someone doesnt want to agree with it.
2. of course people will pay for it, that is implied. Like I said the VAST majority of what can be done in this technology is not being done so there really dosent exist any baseline to proove other than not being moronic. killing trolls all day is not the only thing people are willing to pay money for and I am willing to bet people would pay money for a game that contains a series of features EXCEPT killing trolls.
Except that you would have to show a correlation between mmo playersand sims players. Remember, SIMS online tanked. Didn't have enough players. Few people were interested.
That says to me, that the demographic for the SIMS games is not the same as the mmo playerbase. Or more specifally, playesr who played the SIMS were interested in the gameplay but not intereacting in an onlnie world with other people.
I would agree that people would pay for games that offer other options than combat. But i wonder if, within the mmo demographic, if housing is really up there.
Personally, I think they should have it but I also tend to like a lot of things that "the majority" wouldn't like.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
personally my choice for a themepark game is LOTR or EQ2 over WoW specifically because of the housing in the first 2 games. (and with the expansion, rift which is adding housing will be among those three, possibly at the top)
if eve had a way to design the interiors of an outpost, i would never ever play anything else.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
For something that has been called a "niche" feature in MMOs, the topic of Housing sure brings out the discussion.
Much like the topic of how "niche" Sandbox MMOs are.
I find it interesting that these 2 things that, by many, arent that popular get the most views and replies.
Maybe they arent as niche as people think they are.
If this discussion showed up on a site that was not traditionally dominated by the same topic from the same posters, you might have a point.
But you're observing that water is still wet.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
probably cause a lot of players like myself don't care about it or more to the point care about something else that is a priority.....in other words they save their time and effort for features that put asses in the seats
1. not to split hairs but you did say 'game' not MMO. That said, throwing in the best selling single player game in gaming history as evidence DOES hold water regardless of if someone doesnt want to agree with it.
2. of course people will pay for it, that is implied. Like I said the VAST majority of what can be done in this technology is not being done so there really dosent exist any baseline to proove other than not being moronic. killing trolls all day is not the only thing people are willing to pay money for and I am willing to bet people would pay money for a game that contains a series of features EXCEPT killing trolls.
Except that you would have to show a correlation between mmo playersand sims players. Remember, SIMS online tanked. Didn't have enough players. Few people were interested.
That says to me, that the demographic for the SIMS games is not the same as the mmo playerbase. Or more specifally, playesr who played the SIMS were interested in the gameplay but not intereacting in an onlnie world with other people.
I would agree that people would pay for games that offer other options than combat. But i wonder if, within the mmo demographic, if housing is really up there.
Personally, I think they should have it but I also tend to like a lot of things that "the majority" wouldn't like.
sims tanked because it was the same year second life came out.
Its hard for me to proove other than 25+ years of gaming experience but I can say that I have NEVER decided to play a single player game vs a MMO game based on it being MMO or single player. Not once. Nor do I know anyone who ever has. The choice is based on features and if you want friends or not which has zero berring on a feature list outside of chat.
I really fail to see why its so hard for some people to understand what can be extroplated from the single player world and what can not. It aways amazes me that lack of basic understanding on the technology and what intrests people. Again this coming from someone who doesnt even like housing in an MMO.
Giving the majority what they want is fine if they have actually been exposed to the real options. Housing in most MMOs are very basic and of course they are not intresting but they exist for a reason and that reason is because people have been asking for them.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Except that you would have to show a correlation between mmo playersand sims players. Remember, SIMS online tanked. Didn't have enough players. Few people were interested.
That says to me, that the demographic for the SIMS games is not the same as the mmo playerbase. Or more specifally, playesr who played the SIMS were interested in the gameplay but not intereacting in an onlnie world with other people.
I would agree that people would pay for games that offer other options than combat. But i wonder if, within the mmo demographic, if housing is really up there.
Personally, I think they should have it but I also tend to like a lot of things that "the majority" wouldn't like.
When I look at all of these social media games on Facebook and the insane amounts of money that are made from them I can't help but think there would be interest in a MMO that offers more than just killing and gear grinding. What are all of these people doing in Farmville and castleville and all of the other "villes" out there? For the most part they are building,creating and collecting. Why is WoW adding a farm to their game if there is no interest in anything other than the traditional themepark gear grind? Hell WoW is king of the gear grind.
People seem to forget there is no limits to what an MMORPG could be. The genre is still growing and evolving..slowly perhaps but it is happening even in small ways. To close your mind to the possibility of what could be is just very short sighted. Things dont have to be a certain way just because this is the way they have been. All it takes is one developer to add something different to a game that becomes popular and it will become standard in most MMOs.
A private place for players to go practice their sexy talk with one another.
I've not seen a very good function otherwise.
EQ2's customization was nice, but you couldn't actually use anything (like sit in a chair) so it was pointless. LOTRO guild housing is nice for storage and collaborating crafting, but ultimatly not needed. FFXI I liked the idea of growing plants and using the housing as a part of crafting as a whole, but again you could do this equally elsewhere and not have to load.
Housing in UO & Shadowbane were a living part of the world so it meant a lot more. Having it, protecting it, and possibly losing it made it matter more.
WHEN the major design philosophy of gaming now is; go end game grind. What use is player housing?
Things dont have to be a certain way just because this is the way they have been. All it takes is one developer to add something different to a game that becomes popular and it will become standard in most MMOs.
Yes, argumentum ad antiquitatem (old things are best) and novitatem (better because it's new) are the same fallacy.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I will add to all this that speaking for myself when a new MMO comes into my radar one of the first things I look at is crafting. Even though I like crafting its NOT the main reason I look for crafting descriptions in a game. The reason I do that is because that is where you often find the truth of the developer. If they have no information, or non-specific information other than 'it will kick a$$' or if they flat out make excuses as to why something 'cant' be done then I put the entire development company into concern.
I am not as intrested in hearing from developers about what 'cant' happen when it already is happening. I am intrested in hearing from developers about what CAN happen.
hand to god I know exactly what they are doing I just cant proove it. They are trying to lower the expectations of everyone and its working.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
1. a game doesnt have to be 100% housing or .5% housing and fulff somewhere inbetween the two extremes perhaps. Come on guys we are all smarter than this!
2. given that a game that is nearly 100% housing and is the best selling PC game EVER. Might be evidence to pause into thinking that a game that has a side fluf of a house doesnt mean people dont like housing it matters on the type of housing features we are talking about.
3. I might add i dont even like housing and I can see how painfully obvious these points are
4. (added) I am not saying a developer should or should not having housing as a feature. I am saying their excuses for not doing it are lame.
To do it in the depth some fans want it costs resources. Resources which could be used somewhere else. They are simply not a major attraction point of MMOs. Its not a game maker nor is it a game breaker if you don't have it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Even though I like crafting its NOT the main reason I look for crafting descriptions in a game. The reason I do that is because that is where you often find the truth of the developer.
Just a silly as making the decision entirely/only on the basis of housing. If the game scratches the "creative" button of players in other ways (say exploring or constructing player-made content), you just prejudicially skipped it.
One data point, huge conclusion that may not be accurate.
Similarly, what you see today may not be at all what the game evolves into. CoH is, to sandbox players, a hugely over-instanced themepark (that happens to include one of the few huge player-created content systems live in MMOs today), and easily one of the best character customization systems ever made.
I love games like CoX, they defy people who must classify and file everything in simple boxes.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
A private place for players to go practice their sexy talk with one another.
I've not seen a very good function otherwise.
EQ2's customization was nice, but you couldn't actually use anything (like sit in a chair) so it was pointless. LOTRO guild housing is nice for storage and collaborating crafting, but ultimatly not needed. FFXI I liked the idea of growing plants and using the housing as a part of crafting as a whole, but again you could do this equally elsewhere and not have to load.
Housing in UO & Shadowbane were a living part of the world so it meant a lot more. Having it, protecting it, and possibly losing it made it matter more.
WHEN the major design philosophy of gaming now is; go end game grind. What use is player housing?
housing is insignificant fluff that nobody is overly intrested in because the developers made it so but I agree that doesnt mean GOOD housing isnt possible and that people wouldnt actually make is a deciding factor between two games.
The bottom line is that game developers want everyone to think in terms of 'cant' not in terms of 'can' because 'cant' is hella cheaper.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
1. not to split hairs but you did say 'game' not MMO. That said, throwing in the best selling single player game in gaming history as evidence DOES hold water regardless of if someone doesnt want to agree with it.
2. of course people will pay for it, that is implied. Like I said the VAST majority of what can be done in this technology is not being done so there really dosent exist any baseline to proove other than not being moronic. killing trolls all day is not the only thing people are willing to pay money for and I am willing to bet people would pay money for a game that contains a series of features EXCEPT killing trolls.
Except that you would have to show a correlation between mmo playersand sims players. Remember, SIMS online tanked. Didn't have enough players. Few people were interested.
That says to me, that the demographic for the SIMS games is not the same as the mmo playerbase. Or more specifally, playesr who played the SIMS were interested in the gameplay but not intereacting in an onlnie world with other people.
I would agree that people would pay for games that offer other options than combat. But i wonder if, within the mmo demographic, if housing is really up there.
Personally, I think they should have it but I also tend to like a lot of things that "the majority" wouldn't like.
sims tanked because it was the same year second life came out.
Its hard for me to proove other than 25+ years of gaming experience but I can say that I have NEVER decided to play a single player game vs a MMO game based on it being MMO or single player. Not once. Nor do I know anyone who ever has. The choice is based on features and if you want friends or not which has zero berring on a feature list outside of chat.
I really fail to see why its so hard for some people to understand what can be extroplated from the single player world and what can not. It aways amazes me that lack of basic understanding on the technology and what intrests people. Again this coming from someone who doesnt even like housing in an MMO.
Giving the majority what they want is fine if they have actually been exposed to the real options. Housing in most MMOs are very basic and of course they are not intresting but they exist for a reason and that reason is because people have been asking for them.
I would argue that SIMS players are not necessarily second life players.
I mean, if you are going to make a statement like that then that's going to have to be backed up by something. I know many SIMS players and none of them play online games (such as mmo's) or second life. It's important to note that these are people from different walks of life and not gamers as we would consider them.
I know this is hard to realize but not everyone is in love with features "just for features". There are people who stay away from online games regardless of features because they don't want to fraternize with other people in a game space.
Heck, with games like morrowind, oblvion and now skyrim I sometimes wonder if I will leave the mmo space behind all together. Regardless of features, the communities for these games are just getting scummier. Not everyone has the patience to put up with that nonsense.
And if one is not really "into" playing along and fraternizing with people, why would they go to an online game that has features they want when they can play a single player that has all the same features?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I will add to all this that speaking for myself when a new MMO comes into my radar one of the first things I look at is crafting. Even though I like crafting its NOT the main reason I look for crafting descriptions in a game. The reason I do that is because that is where you often find the truth of the developer. If they have no information, or non-specific information other than 'it will kick a$$' or if they flat out make excuses as to why something 'cant' be done then I put the entire development company into concern.
I am not as intrested in hearing from developers about what 'cant' happen when it already is happening. I am intrested in hearing from developers about what CAN happen.
hand to god I know exactly what they are doing I just cant proove it. They are trying to lower the expectations of everyone and its working.
I do the exact same thing! Crafting is one of those features that really speaks volumes about the kind of developers you have working on a game.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Even though I like crafting its NOT the main reason I look for crafting descriptions in a game. The reason I do that is because that is where you often find the truth of the developer.
Just a silly as making the decision entirely/only on the basis of housing. If the game scratches the "creative" button of players in other ways (say exploring or constructing player-made content), you just prejudicially skipped it.
One data point, huge conclusion that may not be accurate.
So far all games that have cheap or no crafting turned out to be nothing more than a hack and slash disapointment among players. I dont play so I cant say what they are like. No intresting crafting = high chance I will not play. Like I said, the reason is because of their overall focus. Not the crafting specifically.
Now if developers decided to start being more creative, say like the level of a 10 year old instead of a 5 year old then yeah I might want to consider other factors. as it is so far, those other factors (such as exploring) really dont exist well in games without crafting and games that do have crafting often have great explore as well because of the demographic they are focused on.
I hope that clears things up
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I will add to all this that speaking for myself when a new MMO comes into my radar one of the first things I look at is crafting. Even though I like crafting its NOT the main reason I look for crafting descriptions in a game. The reason I do that is because that is where you often find the truth of the developer. If they have no information, or non-specific information other than 'it will kick a$$' or if they flat out make excuses as to why something 'cant' be done then I put the entire development company into concern.
I am not as intrested in hearing from developers about what 'cant' happen when it already is happening. I am intrested in hearing from developers about what CAN happen.
hand to god I know exactly what they are doing I just cant proove it. They are trying to lower the expectations of everyone and its working.
I do the exact same thing! Crafting is one of those features that really speaks volumes about the kind of developers you have working on a game.
What if there is no crafting in the game?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
1. not to split hairs but you did say 'game' not MMO. That said, throwing in the best selling single player game in gaming history as evidence DOES hold water regardless of if someone doesnt want to agree with it.
2. of course people will pay for it, that is implied. Like I said the VAST majority of what can be done in this technology is not being done so there really dosent exist any baseline to proove other than not being moronic. killing trolls all day is not the only thing people are willing to pay money for and I am willing to bet people would pay money for a game that contains a series of features EXCEPT killing trolls.
Except that you would have to show a correlation between mmo playersand sims players. Remember, SIMS online tanked. Didn't have enough players. Few people were interested.
That says to me, that the demographic for the SIMS games is not the same as the mmo playerbase. Or more specifally, playesr who played the SIMS were interested in the gameplay but not intereacting in an onlnie world with other people.
I would agree that people would pay for games that offer other options than combat. But i wonder if, within the mmo demographic, if housing is really up there.
Personally, I think they should have it but I also tend to like a lot of things that "the majority" wouldn't like.
sims tanked because it was the same year second life came out.
Its hard for me to proove other than 25+ years of gaming experience but I can say that I have NEVER decided to play a single player game vs a MMO game based on it being MMO or single player. Not once. Nor do I know anyone who ever has. The choice is based on features and if you want friends or not which has zero berring on a feature list outside of chat.
I really fail to see why its so hard for some people to understand what can be extroplated from the single player world and what can not. It aways amazes me that lack of basic understanding on the technology and what intrests people. Again this coming from someone who doesnt even like housing in an MMO.
Giving the majority what they want is fine if they have actually been exposed to the real options. Housing in most MMOs are very basic and of course they are not intresting but they exist for a reason and that reason is because people have been asking for them.
I would argue that SIMS players are not necessarily second life players.
I mean, if you are going to make a statement like that then that's going to have to be backed up by something. I know many SIMS players and none of them play online games (such as mmo's) or second life. It's important to note that these are people from different walks of life and not gamers as we would consider them.
I know this is hard to realize but not everyone is in love with features "just for features". There are people who stay away from online games regardless of features because they don't want to fraternize with other people in a game space.
Heck, with games like morrowind, oblvion and now skyrim I sometimes wonder if I will leave the mmo space behind all together. Regardless of features, the communities for these games are just getting scummier. Not everyone has the patience to put up with that nonsense.
And if one is not really "into" playing along and fraternizing with people, why would they go to an online game that has features they want when they can play a single player that has all the same features?
your stuck in details and are having a hard time extroplating. Let me try to help.
In the unvirse of possible housing its NOT 'single player game that focuses 100% on housing' vs 'a place where you keep your pet'. As it stands those are the only two types of housing that exists. I am suggesting that players might actually like housing a lot of they were exposed to some that had a creative backbone. But as it is developers are providing you with a door and a lightblub and then saying 'nobody likes housing'. No...nobody likes YOUR housing.
Again, I stress the point that I am able to understand and explain these points and I dont even like housing of real kind of even imagined kind.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I will add to all this that speaking for myself when a new MMO comes into my radar one of the first things I look at is crafting. Even though I like crafting its NOT the main reason I look for crafting descriptions in a game. The reason I do that is because that is where you often find the truth of the developer. If they have no information, or non-specific information other than 'it will kick a$$' or if they flat out make excuses as to why something 'cant' be done then I put the entire development company into concern.
I am not as intrested in hearing from developers about what 'cant' happen when it already is happening. I am intrested in hearing from developers about what CAN happen.
hand to god I know exactly what they are doing I just cant proove it. They are trying to lower the expectations of everyone and its working.
I do the exact same thing! Crafting is one of those features that really speaks volumes about the kind of developers you have working on a game.
What if there is no crafting in the game?
will not play.
basically games that have crafting usually also have great exploring, great character development options and are usually sandboxes.
Games without crafting using have little exploring, simplistic character development and few options.
There isnt a technical reason for this, its just historical and cultural.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
basically games that have crafting usually also have great exploring, great character development options and are usually sandboxes.
Games without crafting using have little exploring, simplistic character development and few options.
There isnt a technical reason for this, its just historical and cultural.
Somehow, WoW has become a sandbox.
Simple boxes.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
basically games that have crafting usually also have great exploring, great character development options and are usually sandboxes.
Games without crafting using have little exploring, simplistic character development and few options.
There isnt a technical reason for this, its just historical and cultural.
Sounds like you're gauging a person according to their horoscope. There's tons of games with decent to good crafting and yet completely lacking in other areas.
You've missed a lot of good games.
EDIT: Also, you are among the weirdest people I've met in these forums. Congratz.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
basically games that have crafting usually also have great exploring, great character development options and are usually sandboxes.
Games without crafting using have little exploring, simplistic character development and few options.
There isnt a technical reason for this, its just historical and cultural.
Sounds like you're gauging a person according to their horoscope. There's tons of games with decent to good crafting and yet completely lacking in other areas.
You've missed a lot of good games.
EDIT: Also, you are among the weirdest people I've met in these forums. Congratz.
I have found it to be a pretty good forumla actually.
WoW has less crafting the EQ2 does. EQ2 is slightly and I me barely more intresting to me than WoW.
Fallen Earth has one of the best crafting engines ever and its world is huge, skill based system and ballsy.
Darkfall has more crafting then people think and it also has a huge world, open, sandboxish game play
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
1. not to split hairs but you did say 'game' not MMO. That said, throwing in the best selling single player game in gaming history as evidence DOES hold water regardless of if someone doesnt want to agree with it.
2. of course people will pay for it, that is implied. Like I said the VAST majority of what can be done in this technology is not being done so there really dosent exist any baseline to proove other than not being moronic. killing trolls all day is not the only thing people are willing to pay money for and I am willing to bet people would pay money for a game that contains a series of features EXCEPT killing trolls.
1. This is an MMO forum, specifically for talking about MMOs. It should have been obvious. The fact is, people who play The Sims and people who play MMOs are two entirely different groups and what applies to one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.
2. How do you know that people will pay for it? Where is your evidence? Since it's not your money that developers are spending, what you're willing to bet is entirely irrelevant. You have to prove your case.
Comments
They should offer the option to build you house is a protected area or non-protected area. I'm guessing there would be a lot of pvp players that would love to build a house and fight to protect it.
Whats funny is the game that is recognized as the first true MMO by most (UO) probably has the best housing set up even of all MMOs today.
Witty. Too bad it doesn't help your cause.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Except that you would have to show a correlation between mmo playersand sims players. Remember, SIMS online tanked. Didn't have enough players. Few people were interested.
That says to me, that the demographic for the SIMS games is not the same as the mmo playerbase. Or more specifally, playesr who played the SIMS were interested in the gameplay but not intereacting in an onlnie world with other people.
I would agree that people would pay for games that offer other options than combat. But i wonder if, within the mmo demographic, if housing is really up there.
Personally, I think they should have it but I also tend to like a lot of things that "the majority" wouldn't like.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
personally my choice for a themepark game is LOTR or EQ2 over WoW specifically because of the housing in the first 2 games. (and with the expansion, rift which is adding housing will be among those three, possibly at the top)
if eve had a way to design the interiors of an outpost, i would never ever play anything else.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
If this discussion showed up on a site that was not traditionally dominated by the same topic from the same posters, you might have a point.
But you're observing that water is still wet.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
probably cause a lot of players like myself don't care about it or more to the point care about something else that is a priority.....in other words they save their time and effort for features that put asses in the seats
sims tanked because it was the same year second life came out.
Its hard for me to proove other than 25+ years of gaming experience but I can say that I have NEVER decided to play a single player game vs a MMO game based on it being MMO or single player. Not once. Nor do I know anyone who ever has. The choice is based on features and if you want friends or not which has zero berring on a feature list outside of chat.
I really fail to see why its so hard for some people to understand what can be extroplated from the single player world and what can not. It aways amazes me that lack of basic understanding on the technology and what intrests people. Again this coming from someone who doesnt even like housing in an MMO.
Giving the majority what they want is fine if they have actually been exposed to the real options. Housing in most MMOs are very basic and of course they are not intresting but they exist for a reason and that reason is because people have been asking for them.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
When I look at all of these social media games on Facebook and the insane amounts of money that are made from them I can't help but think there would be interest in a MMO that offers more than just killing and gear grinding. What are all of these people doing in Farmville and castleville and all of the other "villes" out there? For the most part they are building,creating and collecting. Why is WoW adding a farm to their game if there is no interest in anything other than the traditional themepark gear grind? Hell WoW is king of the gear grind.
People seem to forget there is no limits to what an MMORPG could be. The genre is still growing and evolving..slowly perhaps but it is happening even in small ways. To close your mind to the possibility of what could be is just very short sighted. Things dont have to be a certain way just because this is the way they have been. All it takes is one developer to add something different to a game that becomes popular and it will become standard in most MMOs.
Player housing in ThemePark MMORPGs has one use.
A private place for players to go practice their sexy talk with one another.
I've not seen a very good function otherwise.
EQ2's customization was nice, but you couldn't actually use anything (like sit in a chair) so it was pointless. LOTRO guild housing is nice for storage and collaborating crafting, but ultimatly not needed. FFXI I liked the idea of growing plants and using the housing as a part of crafting as a whole, but again you could do this equally elsewhere and not have to load.
Housing in UO & Shadowbane were a living part of the world so it meant a lot more. Having it, protecting it, and possibly losing it made it matter more.
WHEN the major design philosophy of gaming now is; go end game grind. What use is player housing?
a yo ho ho
Yes, argumentum ad antiquitatem (old things are best) and novitatem (better because it's new) are the same fallacy.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I will add to all this that speaking for myself when a new MMO comes into my radar one of the first things I look at is crafting. Even though I like crafting its NOT the main reason I look for crafting descriptions in a game. The reason I do that is because that is where you often find the truth of the developer. If they have no information, or non-specific information other than 'it will kick a$$' or if they flat out make excuses as to why something 'cant' be done then I put the entire development company into concern.
I am not as intrested in hearing from developers about what 'cant' happen when it already is happening. I am intrested in hearing from developers about what CAN happen.
hand to god I know exactly what they are doing I just cant proove it. They are trying to lower the expectations of everyone and its working.
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To do it in the depth some fans want it costs resources. Resources which could be used somewhere else. They are simply not a major attraction point of MMOs. Its not a game maker nor is it a game breaker if you don't have it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Just a silly as making the decision entirely/only on the basis of housing. If the game scratches the "creative" button of players in other ways (say exploring or constructing player-made content), you just prejudicially skipped it.
One data point, huge conclusion that may not be accurate.
Similarly, what you see today may not be at all what the game evolves into. CoH is, to sandbox players, a hugely over-instanced themepark (that happens to include one of the few huge player-created content systems live in MMOs today), and easily one of the best character customization systems ever made.
I love games like CoX, they defy people who must classify and file everything in simple boxes.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
housing is insignificant fluff that nobody is overly intrested in because the developers made it so but I agree that doesnt mean GOOD housing isnt possible and that people wouldnt actually make is a deciding factor between two games.
The bottom line is that game developers want everyone to think in terms of 'cant' not in terms of 'can' because 'cant' is hella cheaper.
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I would argue that SIMS players are not necessarily second life players.
I mean, if you are going to make a statement like that then that's going to have to be backed up by something. I know many SIMS players and none of them play online games (such as mmo's) or second life. It's important to note that these are people from different walks of life and not gamers as we would consider them.
I know this is hard to realize but not everyone is in love with features "just for features". There are people who stay away from online games regardless of features because they don't want to fraternize with other people in a game space.
Heck, with games like morrowind, oblvion and now skyrim I sometimes wonder if I will leave the mmo space behind all together. Regardless of features, the communities for these games are just getting scummier. Not everyone has the patience to put up with that nonsense.
And if one is not really "into" playing along and fraternizing with people, why would they go to an online game that has features they want when they can play a single player that has all the same features?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I do the exact same thing! Crafting is one of those features that really speaks volumes about the kind of developers you have working on a game.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
So far all games that have cheap or no crafting turned out to be nothing more than a hack and slash disapointment among players. I dont play so I cant say what they are like. No intresting crafting = high chance I will not play. Like I said, the reason is because of their overall focus. Not the crafting specifically.
Now if developers decided to start being more creative, say like the level of a 10 year old instead of a 5 year old then yeah I might want to consider other factors. as it is so far, those other factors (such as exploring) really dont exist well in games without crafting and games that do have crafting often have great explore as well because of the demographic they are focused on.
I hope that clears things up
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What if there is no crafting in the game?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
your stuck in details and are having a hard time extroplating. Let me try to help.
In the unvirse of possible housing its NOT 'single player game that focuses 100% on housing' vs 'a place where you keep your pet'. As it stands those are the only two types of housing that exists. I am suggesting that players might actually like housing a lot of they were exposed to some that had a creative backbone. But as it is developers are providing you with a door and a lightblub and then saying 'nobody likes housing'. No...nobody likes YOUR housing.
Again, I stress the point that I am able to understand and explain these points and I dont even like housing of real kind of even imagined kind.
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will not play.
basically games that have crafting usually also have great exploring, great character development options and are usually sandboxes.
Games without crafting using have little exploring, simplistic character development and few options.
There isnt a technical reason for this, its just historical and cultural.
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Somehow, WoW has become a sandbox.
Simple boxes.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Sounds like you're gauging a person according to their horoscope. There's tons of games with decent to good crafting and yet completely lacking in other areas.
You've missed a lot of good games.
EDIT: Also, you are among the weirdest people I've met in these forums. Congratz.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I have found it to be a pretty good forumla actually.
WoW has less crafting the EQ2 does. EQ2 is slightly and I me barely more intresting to me than WoW.
Fallen Earth has one of the best crafting engines ever and its world is huge, skill based system and ballsy.
Darkfall has more crafting then people think and it also has a huge world, open, sandboxish game play
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1. This is an MMO forum, specifically for talking about MMOs. It should have been obvious. The fact is, people who play The Sims and people who play MMOs are two entirely different groups and what applies to one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.
2. How do you know that people will pay for it? Where is your evidence? Since it's not your money that developers are spending, what you're willing to bet is entirely irrelevant. You have to prove your case.
Let us know when you can.
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