OP already answered his own question: Its not a game defining feature - just something extra.
Even in sandboxes it can be a "build it, then ignore it" feature.
But in that case, one of many such features = an entire catalog of stuff to do.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The simple truth is that AAA developers as a philosophy want to chip away all of the game features they feel are not essential, the concept of art or a sculpter taking a raw block and chipping away whats not needed to reveal a work of art.
The sad thing is that guild housing is one of those chips, the original block would be something like EQ, and ever since developers have been taking stuff out, its only after a games release that they start to put stuff back in, and call it a content patch.
The simple truth is that AAA developers as a philosophy want to chip away all of the game features they feel are not essential, the concept of art or a sculpter taking a raw block and chipping away whats not needed to reveal a work of art.
That's an interestingly...wrong...perception of normal development decision making. Yes, there are situation where you must weigh man-hours against benefits. (Psss...any creative team does...) But any head of development making decisions in the way you describe would be job-hunting in days.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Everything in that vid is either player-crafted, some kind of reward, or gotten from a mob. Then placed, by hand, using an amazing system to put anything, anywhere.
Not to wade too far into the housing conversation and just reiterate what has already been said in this, and numerous past threads, I just wanted to say thanks for posting the video. In my opinion, SWG had some of the best housing I have seen in an MMO. I even switched my character to a Master Architect for a while just so I could build different houses and furniture for myself and friends. We set up a little 'neighborhood' near a remote lake on Naboo and, despite not being the most convenient location, it became a regular part of my gameplay to hang out there and socialize with friends I had made throughout my travels.
I had numerous other houses in various locations throughout my time in that game, but for some reason, the Naboo lake house was the one that came to mind. It could just be nostalgia talking, but I felt it really added to the gameplay and defnitely made it tougher to leave, as there was a sense of attachment to 'my own virtual space', when the game went south.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I've been kicking around a concept that avoids the housing sprawl. Rather than new construction, players take up living space in pre-existing apartment buildings, condos, and single family dwellings. The parallel is from reality where the most effecient high density housing is an urban environment.
pre-alpha screenshot
Each floor of a residential building exists as an interior cell inside game space. Access to individual non-instanced living space is provided via portal door that requires a key in inventory. The owner's key is permanent. The owner can create a guest key that can be given to others, but evaporates on log-off (still working out plans for long term guest keys). Interiors are customized via the purchase of decoration package that includes furniture, interior layout, and functional storage.
In addition to residential space, I'm looking at the potential for player owned storefronts. Items can be placed for sale in the store via interface similar to AH UIs. An NPC is present in the store that shows walk-in visitors a UI allowing selection and purchase of items. Once purchased, the item is mailed to the consumer and the revenue mailed to the owner via in-game mail.
Both housing and storefronts are rented on a monthly (?) basis. Should a player cease gameplay, the lease expires and the space returns to a pool of available apartments. This resolves the issue of abandoned housing. Storage contents are saved and can be retrieved by renting another apartment. Unsold store contents are mailed to the owner with unclaimed mail evaporating in 30 days. The mechanism for moving is to let an apartment expire and then leasing a different apartment.
There are two off sides to such a system. First is that an urban environment is contradictory to normal medieval fantasy design, and favors a present day, post apocolyptic or science fiction theme. Second is the limited customizability of interior space, for example it won't be possible to pick out tapioca wall paper, place a coat of arms next to the living room window and place a bed in the kitchen. It's sort of like a normal apartment except the furniture is nailed to the floor (think Morrowind) and items cannot be placed on furnishings only inside storage containers where they are not seen (think WoW's bank).
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
but I felt it really added to the gameplay and defnitely made it tougher to leave, as there was a sense of attachment to 'my own virtual space', when the game went south.
Attachment to achievements are something I consider key to MMORPG longevity in general. I consider it a major factor of the inability of new games to pull players from heavily populated titles. The greater the attachment, the less likely a person is to leave.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
There's what players think they want and what players want. I don't think there's been any data to show that any significant number of people avoided or left an MMO due to lack of housing, despite it being one of the first things on many MMO gamers wish lists.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit There's what players think they want and what players want. I don't think there's been any data to show that any significant number of people avoided or left an MMO due to lack of housing, despite it being one of the first things on many MMO gamers wish lists.
There's also some evidence to show housing is not good for games that depend heavily on players making the world look alive. I think it's the EQ2 devs that regret having housing in the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Loktofeit There's what players think they want and what players want. I don't think there's been any data to show that any significant number of people avoided or left an MMO due to lack of housing, despite it being one of the first things on many MMO gamers wish lists.
There's also some evidence to show housing is not good for games that depend heavily on players making the world look alive. I think it's the EQ2 devs that regret having housing in the game.
No, the EQ2 devs have said it was a mistake putting so much ultility into the instanced housing, not that housing itself was a bad idea.
Can you find me one link with a dev saying that they regret having personal housing in EQ2?
Ultility in housing and guild halls, such as crafting stations, teleporters, and the like, is obviously not a good thing for the open world population, but that is not the same thing as saying that housing is a bad thing.
Originally posted by Loktofeit There's what players think they want and what players want. I don't think there's been any data to show that any significant number of people avoided or left an MMO due to lack of housing, despite it being one of the first things on many MMO gamers wish lists.
There's also some evidence to show housing is not good for games that depend heavily on players making the world look alive. I think it's the EQ2 devs that regret having housing in the game.
I think alot of that stems from the fact that you really couldnt do anything outside your house and on the plot of land it sits on.
In UO and SWG people would hunker down working on the interior because thats all you could do. Occasionally see someone run out and into another building. In EQ2 it was worse because houses were instanced.
It took people out of the game world. Now if games used Plots instead of just houses and players could do things on the outside of area (grow a garden, herd some animals, have a bbq party on the porch, whatever) it would bring alot more "life" back outside to the game.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
It take time/money to develop player housing, and it doesn't have an immediate impact, a lot of games need to spend the time on the immediate impact, then they can dangle the maybe in front of people till they maybe do it. A game has to get to the point of having a successful launch, because if it falls flat, having housing wont matter too much imo.
Where I think it has the bigger impact, is sustaining subs of people that like or are borderline with a game, a lot of people will decide to stay if a good housing option exists.
I think the bigger picture is that mmos are releasing without much depth, broken/incomplete crafting, broken endgame (which is a norm for the most part, as they always feel they can fix it before people get there, the fix just hasn't been happening), quest hubs, 1-2 starter cities (starter areas limited by a story that fits this, or just to make things easier, gone is the starter areas for most races for the most part), small worlds with limited experience choices....Depth has sucked for the most part the last 6+ years imo.
Probably just a simple matter of cost vs. return. A housing system is not cheap to create, and it tends to not really add much to gameplay.
It's not always a bad idea, of course. But I've played an awful lot of MMORPs with housing, and I think only in Haven & Hearth did I care about it. Every other time, it was a big dev resource cost for the game which didn't really entertain me.
This seems to indicate that a clarity of focus matters. If you add housing to a game where combat is the main focus, it's going to feel tacked on. If you add housing to a game which is about crafting, and a house is a big, time-consuming, rewarding thing to craft, it's going to fit right in.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Everything in that vid is either player-crafted, some kind of reward, or gotten from a mob. Then placed, by hand, using an amazing system to put anything, anywhere.
Impressive, but what you just described does describe Wizard101 and Glitch too! So I guess SWG would count too. Also, I should add Horizons (Istaria) to the list.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Sad that mmos are no longer online worlds just combat simulator. The same can be said for all non-combat skills, crafting and resource gathering. If it isn't about putting a pointy stick into a enemy then it isn't important.
Not that fighting for player housing on a forum site will do one iota of good, but it's a topic I feel strongly about, so I feel a need to "chime in." My favorite MMORPG that I've played is probably EQ2 and the reason for that was many many varied things, but not the least of which was player housing. Player housing gave me a place in the world that felt like it was MINE. I decorated it, designed it, and crafted most of what was in it....for several characters....each house having a different theme. It was fun, it was creatively challenging, and it was competitive. There were large groups of people that showcased their houses on forums and websites and competed, in a sense, with other designers. It was pure fun. It was ONE of the best parts of the game.
Every game that doesn't have housing....gets less of my gamer's heart. If you, as a developer, don't see fit to give me my own space in your world.....why would I want to "live" there?
Remember long time ago playing UO and camping player houses that were close to decaying. In UO when you didn't pay your house upkeep it would decay and everything in the house would drop to be picked up by whoever. Found out about it my first week playing and by the first month and resub came around. I had months and months of vet rewards/rares/gold.
Those were some of the most enjoyable "camp" sessions to date.
Vanguard was probably my dirty little secret of a game that I liked. The player/guild housing in it was pretty interesting as the guild worked together to build houses and the guild hall. That felt special to me. All other instances of housing I've experienced felt much more shallow. Vanguard still failed me as there were no teapots to put in my house!!! Also, the housing was just a side effect of hanging out with friends playing the game. It wasn't a feature I really cared about.
SWG was the only game I ever played where housing was important. My house was my shop, visited by many people every day. It didn't matter where in the galaxy I went for the evening, I would try and get back to log off in my house ready to go out and about checking my harvesters, firing up my factories to replace my stock and replenishing my vendors the next day.
Since then, in every other game I've played that has housing, it has been a wasted feature providing nothing more than extra storage space. I was playing LotRO when they announced the introduction of housing and I was quite enthusiastic at the time but once I had one, I realised it was a complete weste of time. I soon gave it up and spent the money I saved on extra vault space instead.
Modern theme park mmo's just don't need housing when everyone is constantly on the move to new areas. Sadly. I don't think we'll see that feature return as a mainstay of games again unless by some miracle the genre makes a full circle and goes back to the sandbox style.
Probably just a simple matter of cost vs. return. A housing system is not cheap to create, and it tends to not really add much to gameplay.
It's not always a bad idea, of course. But I've played an awful lot of MMORPs with housing, and I think only in Haven & Hearth did I care about it. Every other time, it was a big dev resource cost for the game which didn't really entertain me.
This seems to indicate that a clarity of focus matters. If you add housing to a game where combat is the main focus, it's going to feel tacked on. If you add housing to a game which is about crafting, and a house is a big, time-consuming, rewarding thing to craft, it's going to fit right in.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Remember long time ago playing UO and camping player houses that were close to decaying. In UO when you didn't pay your house upkeep it would decay and everything in the house would drop to be picked up by whoever. Found out about it my first week playing and by the first month and resub came around. I had months and months of vet rewards/rares/gold.
Those were some of the most enjoyable "camp" sessions to date.
I remember house camping for hours at a time, clicking the house sign over and over hoping it would change. I hated when people found out about it and told ALL of their friends. Ruined the whole thing
The reason SWG is my all time favorite game is because it had so many options that prevented burn out. Player housing was awesome when I was bored with PvP, PvE, or space. I would spend many hours a day decorating my guild hall with the trophies, rare items, and paintings that I had acquired. When you finished your house, you could go to your POB ship and decorate it. I feel that devs are missing out on keeping players because they don't implement housing to prevent people leaving their game.
SWG was the only game I ever played where housing was important. My house was my shop, visited by many people every day. It didn't matter where in the galaxy I went for the evening, I would try and get back to log off in my house ready to go out and about checking my harvesters, firing up my factories to replace my stock and replenishing my vendors the next day.
Since then, in every other game I've played that has housing, it has been a wasted feature providing nothing more than extra storage space. I was playing LotRO when they announced the introduction of housing and I was quite enthusiastic at the time but once I had one, I realised it was a complete weste of time. I soon gave it up and spent the money I saved on extra vault space instead.
Modern theme park mmo's just don't need housing when everyone is constantly on the move to new areas. Sadly. I don't think we'll see that feature return as a mainstay of games again unless by some miracle the genre makes a full circle and goes back to the sandbox style.
One other reason this was possible = no action house.
Player shops are only relevant and maningful as long as there is no Auction House.
Well maybe it using AH would require seriously MASSIVE fees and taxes (like 50% on top of price of a thing) then maybe it owuld work as well, but maybe not.
I wonder if there is single developer gutsy enough to make AAA game without AH nowadays.
SWG was the only game I ever played where housing was important. My house was my shop, visited by many people every day. It didn't matter where in the galaxy I went for the evening, I would try and get back to log off in my house ready to go out and about checking my harvesters, firing up my factories to replace my stock and replenishing my vendors the next day.
Since then, in every other game I've played that has housing, it has been a wasted feature providing nothing more than extra storage space. I was playing LotRO when they announced the introduction of housing and I was quite enthusiastic at the time but once I had one, I realised it was a complete weste of time. I soon gave it up and spent the money I saved on extra vault space instead.
Modern theme park mmo's just don't need housing when everyone is constantly on the move to new areas. Sadly. I don't think we'll see that feature return as a mainstay of games again unless by some miracle the genre makes a full circle and goes back to the sandbox style.
One other reason this was possible = no action house.
Player shops are only relevant and maningful as long as there is no Auction House.
Well maybe it using AH would require seriously MASSIVE fees and taxes (like 50% on top of price of a thing) then maybe it owuld work as well, but maybe not.
I wonder if there is single developer gutsy enough to make AAA game without AH nowadays.
SWG had a galaxy wide Bazzar. You could only sell items for 20k credit limit. Though you could search all vendors which made shopping nice.
The best stuff was always on player vendors
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Not that fighting for player housing on a forum site will do one iota of good, but it's a topic I feel strongly about, so I feel a need to "chime in." My favorite MMORPG that I've played is probably EQ2 and the reason for that was many many varied things, but not the least of which was player housing. Player housing gave me a place in the world that felt like it was MINE. I decorated it, designed it, and crafted most of what was in it....for several characters....each house having a different theme. It was fun, it was creatively challenging, and it was competitive. There were large groups of people that showcased their houses on forums and websites and competed, in a sense, with other designers. It was pure fun. It was ONE of the best parts of the game.
Every game that doesn't have housing....gets less of my gamer's heart. If you, as a developer, don't see fit to give me my own space in your world.....why would I want to "live" there?
Now I get you. I even agree with you. But I do have to ask you...how much of your time did you spend in your house? What percentage of gaming time was in there doing something, as opposed to being outside? I'm betting that, even as a positive estimate, it was maybe 25%. Let's jsut say it was. Let's just say out of every hour of game play, you spent 15 minutes in your home, another 15 minutes in cities/hub locations, and the other 30 minutes in instances/questing. Probably a fair allotment, maybe even generous for the first two categories.
Should I, as a developer, spend money developing a portion of the game content that you do not use 75% of the time? And honestly, I think in most games with player housing, the average % of time spent in a house is FAR less. Am I giving you the best experience by focusing on a portion of content hardly ever used?
What I THINK a dveloper needs to do is encourage a housing system where it can be part of mainstream progression. Take GW2 for example. Imagine your home could have farms you could gather materials for xp and loot. Crafting tablets, so you could level up there too. Imagine every bit of work you did designing, building, and outfitting your home contributed to your progression as a character, and could be used just as readily as killing mobs/questing/what have you. Imagine DEs spawning where NPC robers attack your home, and you have to run back anf kick them out. Or other interactive gameplay elements like that.
Put that in a game and I think housing will become more viable.
Comments
Why not player housing?
Mainly because PvP is a much cheaper alternative filler content for lazy minded Devs.
Sadly it's this over reliance on PvP that has gone a long way to creating the cesspit pit communities we see in modern MMORPGs.
It would have been an entirely different culture I think if we had seen player housing focused on over the years.
Even in sandboxes it can be a "build it, then ignore it" feature.
But in that case, one of many such features = an entire catalog of stuff to do.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The simple truth is that AAA developers as a philosophy want to chip away all of the game features they feel are not essential, the concept of art or a sculpter taking a raw block and chipping away whats not needed to reveal a work of art.
The sad thing is that guild housing is one of those chips, the original block would be something like EQ, and ever since developers have been taking stuff out, its only after a games release that they start to put stuff back in, and call it a content patch.
That's an interestingly...wrong...perception of normal development decision making. Yes, there are situation where you must weigh man-hours against benefits. (Psss...any creative team does...) But any head of development making decisions in the way you describe would be job-hunting in days.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Not to wade too far into the housing conversation and just reiterate what has already been said in this, and numerous past threads, I just wanted to say thanks for posting the video. In my opinion, SWG had some of the best housing I have seen in an MMO. I even switched my character to a Master Architect for a while just so I could build different houses and furniture for myself and friends. We set up a little 'neighborhood' near a remote lake on Naboo and, despite not being the most convenient location, it became a regular part of my gameplay to hang out there and socialize with friends I had made throughout my travels.
I had numerous other houses in various locations throughout my time in that game, but for some reason, the Naboo lake house was the one that came to mind. It could just be nostalgia talking, but I felt it really added to the gameplay and defnitely made it tougher to leave, as there was a sense of attachment to 'my own virtual space', when the game went south.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I've been kicking around a concept that avoids the housing sprawl. Rather than new construction, players take up living space in pre-existing apartment buildings, condos, and single family dwellings. The parallel is from reality where the most effecient high density housing is an urban environment.
pre-alpha screenshot
Each floor of a residential building exists as an interior cell inside game space. Access to individual non-instanced living space is provided via portal door that requires a key in inventory. The owner's key is permanent. The owner can create a guest key that can be given to others, but evaporates on log-off (still working out plans for long term guest keys). Interiors are customized via the purchase of decoration package that includes furniture, interior layout, and functional storage.
In addition to residential space, I'm looking at the potential for player owned storefronts. Items can be placed for sale in the store via interface similar to AH UIs. An NPC is present in the store that shows walk-in visitors a UI allowing selection and purchase of items. Once purchased, the item is mailed to the consumer and the revenue mailed to the owner via in-game mail.
Both housing and storefronts are rented on a monthly (?) basis. Should a player cease gameplay, the lease expires and the space returns to a pool of available apartments. This resolves the issue of abandoned housing. Storage contents are saved and can be retrieved by renting another apartment. Unsold store contents are mailed to the owner with unclaimed mail evaporating in 30 days. The mechanism for moving is to let an apartment expire and then leasing a different apartment.
There are two off sides to such a system. First is that an urban environment is contradictory to normal medieval fantasy design, and favors a present day, post apocolyptic or science fiction theme. Second is the limited customizability of interior space, for example it won't be possible to pick out tapioca wall paper, place a coat of arms next to the living room window and place a bed in the kitchen. It's sort of like a normal apartment except the furniture is nailed to the floor (think Morrowind) and items cannot be placed on furnishings only inside storage containers where they are not seen (think WoW's bank).
Attachment to achievements are something I consider key to MMORPG longevity in general. I consider it a major factor of the inability of new games to pull players from heavily populated titles. The greater the attachment, the less likely a person is to leave.
There's what players think they want and what players want. I don't think there's been any data to show that any significant number of people avoided or left an MMO due to lack of housing, despite it being one of the first things on many MMO gamers wish lists.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There's also some evidence to show housing is not good for games that depend heavily on players making the world look alive. I think it's the EQ2 devs that regret having housing in the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No, the EQ2 devs have said it was a mistake putting so much ultility into the instanced housing, not that housing itself was a bad idea.
Can you find me one link with a dev saying that they regret having personal housing in EQ2?
Ultility in housing and guild halls, such as crafting stations, teleporters, and the like, is obviously not a good thing for the open world population, but that is not the same thing as saying that housing is a bad thing.
I think alot of that stems from the fact that you really couldnt do anything outside your house and on the plot of land it sits on.
In UO and SWG people would hunker down working on the interior because thats all you could do. Occasionally see someone run out and into another building. In EQ2 it was worse because houses were instanced.
It took people out of the game world. Now if games used Plots instead of just houses and players could do things on the outside of area (grow a garden, herd some animals, have a bbq party on the porch, whatever) it would bring alot more "life" back outside to the game.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
It take time/money to develop player housing, and it doesn't have an immediate impact, a lot of games need to spend the time on the immediate impact, then they can dangle the maybe in front of people till they maybe do it. A game has to get to the point of having a successful launch, because if it falls flat, having housing wont matter too much imo.
Where I think it has the bigger impact, is sustaining subs of people that like or are borderline with a game, a lot of people will decide to stay if a good housing option exists.
I think the bigger picture is that mmos are releasing without much depth, broken/incomplete crafting, broken endgame (which is a norm for the most part, as they always feel they can fix it before people get there, the fix just hasn't been happening), quest hubs, 1-2 starter cities (starter areas limited by a story that fits this, or just to make things easier, gone is the starter areas for most races for the most part), small worlds with limited experience choices....Depth has sucked for the most part the last 6+ years imo.
Probably just a simple matter of cost vs. return. A housing system is not cheap to create, and it tends to not really add much to gameplay.
It's not always a bad idea, of course. But I've played an awful lot of MMORPs with housing, and I think only in Haven & Hearth did I care about it. Every other time, it was a big dev resource cost for the game which didn't really entertain me.
This seems to indicate that a clarity of focus matters. If you add housing to a game where combat is the main focus, it's going to feel tacked on. If you add housing to a game which is about crafting, and a house is a big, time-consuming, rewarding thing to craft, it's going to fit right in.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Impressive, but what you just described does describe Wizard101 and Glitch too! So I guess SWG would count too. Also, I should add Horizons (Istaria) to the list.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Sad that mmos are no longer online worlds just combat simulator. The same can be said for all non-combat skills, crafting and resource gathering. If it isn't about putting a pointy stick into a enemy then it isn't important.
Not that fighting for player housing on a forum site will do one iota of good, but it's a topic I feel strongly about, so I feel a need to "chime in." My favorite MMORPG that I've played is probably EQ2 and the reason for that was many many varied things, but not the least of which was player housing. Player housing gave me a place in the world that felt like it was MINE. I decorated it, designed it, and crafted most of what was in it....for several characters....each house having a different theme. It was fun, it was creatively challenging, and it was competitive. There were large groups of people that showcased their houses on forums and websites and competed, in a sense, with other designers. It was pure fun. It was ONE of the best parts of the game.
Every game that doesn't have housing....gets less of my gamer's heart. If you, as a developer, don't see fit to give me my own space in your world.....why would I want to "live" there?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Remember long time ago playing UO and camping player houses that were close to decaying. In UO when you didn't pay your house upkeep it would decay and everything in the house would drop to be picked up by whoever. Found out about it my first week playing and by the first month and resub came around. I had months and months of vet rewards/rares/gold.
Those were some of the most enjoyable "camp" sessions to date.
Vanguard was probably my dirty little secret of a game that I liked. The player/guild housing in it was pretty interesting as the guild worked together to build houses and the guild hall. That felt special to me. All other instances of housing I've experienced felt much more shallow. Vanguard still failed me as there were no teapots to put in my house!!! Also, the housing was just a side effect of hanging out with friends playing the game. It wasn't a feature I really cared about.
SWG was the only game I ever played where housing was important. My house was my shop, visited by many people every day. It didn't matter where in the galaxy I went for the evening, I would try and get back to log off in my house ready to go out and about checking my harvesters, firing up my factories to replace my stock and replenishing my vendors the next day.
Since then, in every other game I've played that has housing, it has been a wasted feature providing nothing more than extra storage space. I was playing LotRO when they announced the introduction of housing and I was quite enthusiastic at the time but once I had one, I realised it was a complete weste of time. I soon gave it up and spent the money I saved on extra vault space instead.
Modern theme park mmo's just don't need housing when everyone is constantly on the move to new areas. Sadly. I don't think we'll see that feature return as a mainstay of games again unless by some miracle the genre makes a full circle and goes back to the sandbox style.
very well said.
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I remember house camping for hours at a time, clicking the house sign over and over hoping it would change. I hated when people found out about it and told ALL of their friends. Ruined the whole thing
The reason SWG is my all time favorite game is because it had so many options that prevented burn out. Player housing was awesome when I was bored with PvP, PvE, or space. I would spend many hours a day decorating my guild hall with the trophies, rare items, and paintings that I had acquired. When you finished your house, you could go to your POB ship and decorate it. I feel that devs are missing out on keeping players because they don't implement housing to prevent people leaving their game.
One other reason this was possible = no action house.
Player shops are only relevant and maningful as long as there is no Auction House.
Well maybe it using AH would require seriously MASSIVE fees and taxes (like 50% on top of price of a thing) then maybe it owuld work as well, but maybe not.
I wonder if there is single developer gutsy enough to make AAA game without AH nowadays.
SWG had a galaxy wide Bazzar. You could only sell items for 20k credit limit. Though you could search all vendors which made shopping nice.
The best stuff was always on player vendors
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
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Now I get you. I even agree with you. But I do have to ask you...how much of your time did you spend in your house? What percentage of gaming time was in there doing something, as opposed to being outside? I'm betting that, even as a positive estimate, it was maybe 25%. Let's jsut say it was. Let's just say out of every hour of game play, you spent 15 minutes in your home, another 15 minutes in cities/hub locations, and the other 30 minutes in instances/questing. Probably a fair allotment, maybe even generous for the first two categories.
Should I, as a developer, spend money developing a portion of the game content that you do not use 75% of the time? And honestly, I think in most games with player housing, the average % of time spent in a house is FAR less. Am I giving you the best experience by focusing on a portion of content hardly ever used?
What I THINK a dveloper needs to do is encourage a housing system where it can be part of mainstream progression. Take GW2 for example. Imagine your home could have farms you could gather materials for xp and loot. Crafting tablets, so you could level up there too. Imagine every bit of work you did designing, building, and outfitting your home contributed to your progression as a character, and could be used just as readily as killing mobs/questing/what have you. Imagine DEs spawning where NPC robers attack your home, and you have to run back anf kick them out. Or other interactive gameplay elements like that.
Put that in a game and I think housing will become more viable.