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Must stop piracy and second-hand sales! Wait...what about
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Someday, possibly, you may one day own things. Someone else may find those things too expensive for them and feel it makes much more sense to just take yours. I hope you are understanding of their plight and don't hold it against them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think this says it better then I could argue it - "Of course, when we have a physical object, we do just about have the right to sell it second hand (something publishers are of course doing their best to scupper, taking away perhaps even the vestiges of ownership that we have of the plastic)."
Link
Of course, In the US, in 2010, the 9th circuit appeals court ruled that if a copyright holder informs the user they are buying a licence rather than the actual software then they may restrict a persons first sale rights but thats America, they have some questionable and extreme laws to protect the rich and affluent especially whenit comes to copyright.
Came looking for remotely intelligible reply to my post.
Found "Yeah? Well, umm... America is bad! Nyah!"
Left disappointed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok bro, have u read the rest of my post at all? im pointing out the shit that pisses me off, and if u have NEVER pirated a game then gratz to u sir. But dont come here beeing the savior of the corporative gaming comunity, thank you.
Now it's absolutely clear you haven't the slightest clue about the issue you're poorly attempting to rabble about here.
You are right, the store doesn't let you see or sign the agreement before purchase. You agreed before you installed, but that's an argument that's two decades old and if you haven't learned anything on that front by now, you certainly aren't going to learn in a couple pages of an MMORPG.com thread so I won't waste you or my time explaining it. Here's something you clear don't understand, though, and until you figure it out, no one is really going to take you seriously:
"The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software."
But, see.. Steam... that evil, malware something or other you are raising torch and pitchfork about.... Steam lets you read and sign the subscriber agreement (SSA) before you purchase. The SSA hasn't changed in two years, so if you've read it once in the past two years, you're set. As someone rallying about the dangers and oppressive nature of Steam, you have read the SSA, right?
I think this says it better then I could argue it - "Of course, when we have a physical object, we do just about have the right to sell it second hand (something publishers are of course doing their best to scupper, taking away perhaps even the vestiges of ownership that we have of the plastic)."
Link
Of course, In the US, in 2010, the 9th circuit appeals court ruled that if a copyright holder informs the user they are buying a licence rather than the actual software then they may restrict a persons first sale rights but thats America, they have some questionable and extreme laws to protect the rich and affluent especially whenit comes to copyright.
Came looking for remotely intelligible reply to my post.
Found "Yeah? Well, umm... America is bad! Nyah!"
Left disappointed.
Sidestepping my reply by straw-manning the very last sentence of my reply. You skipped the entirety of the article which I linked in which a lawyer who specializes in this type of law showed there really is no consensus as the laws havent been adequately tested. I raised first sale rights which exist in almost all countries in the world. You ignored that."I don't understand how a used game is illegal to sell. When we buy in the shop we do not sign an agreement which prohibits a resale of that item. In most countries, exhanging money for a product makes us the owner of that product."
You didn't buy a product. You paid for a license to use it. You'll need to understand that before we go any further.
While you're working on that one, let's get back to that statement "I don't understand how a used game is illegal to sell."
Since your focuse dis solely on the product, which is the CD/DVD/etc. can you link to license agreement that do not let you transfer the entire physical copy of pre-recorded Software and accompanying documentation on a permanent basis to another person? If it's illegal, someone should inform gameStop
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think you are incorrect. The right of first sale has always removed the rights of control of the copyright holder over its product. This is why the initial ruling in the case mentioned above was that the software developer could not interfere in the sale of its product on Ebay, in other words the right of the buyer to resale the item was upheld. The developer appealed to the 9th circuit and the appeal was upheld, in other words the court set aside the lower court ruling and ruled that the developer could limit resale as long as they met certain condtions.
Now in every other country other than the US that decision has no effect obviously and the legalality of resale of software is still mostly undetermined.
Now you can see where your statement "You didn't buy a product. You paid for a licence to use it. You need to understand that before we go any further" is looking pretty silly yeah?
Piracy itself doesn't hurt companies, only if the do not sell a copy because of it. And the loss of sales - which is often just the difference between what they dreamed of and the real sales, not a proven "loss" - is not per se from piracy.
Companies should spent time and effort to make people *buy* games, instead of preventing to play them without buying. A more positive attitude so to say.
Make a good game, keep your promises about the content, make reasonable prices, make it available (like, companies actually count illegal downloads in countries you can not legally buy the game as a loss of sale..) for everyone without much hassle.
If companies want €60 for a game that does cost $40 in the US and was already released there one year ago - the PC version that is. The console was even earlier..), deliver a half-finished product that has half the features missing and even before you start the game itself you notice it's a straight port from a console because the launcher isn't usable without a gamepad..they should not be surprised that they are losing sales.
Some companies should be glad that people still want to play their game, despite the developer/publisher doing everything they can to keep people from doing so.
So: Piracy is copyright infringment and therefore illegal, but piracy is not the major problem of today for the gaming (or music/movie) industry .
Oh, and about Steam: Steam is not the holy grail, neither is indie gaming. Either a game is good or it is not, "Indie" does not automatically make a game better. It's nice to see some fresh ideas, and that you do not have to invest 100+ million to make a game that is fun. But what if it isn't fun? Should i buy it so that the next title they make might be fun? What if the next one isn't fun, either? Didn't we arrive at the exact same situation as with the major gaming companies? Especially as these small companies won't stay small if everyone keeps buying. Sooner or later they will either grow big themself or get bought.
And Steam has some really nice deals, yes. But half of that is because the regular price is quite high, especially outside the US, especially in Europe. Some game cost only 10% more, some even 3 times as much (really. $25 vs €60 and similar). The regular price is almost always higher then any other shop, even the pricy ones. And it certainly can't keep up with Amazon or GoG.
And don't get me started on the quality of the software itself, there are a lot of issues they know for years but they never fix them, or they fix them due to a major change, like a new layout etc.
And how they actually treat indie developers.. i was following a source mod for years, talking with the developers, they were talking with other developers etc..Valve is on a really high horse there. They are lazy and neglectful when it comes to doing stuff that is not related to a lot of $$$. They did not release the game when it was supposed to be released (on the date Valve told the developers, it wasn't chosen by the developers and Valve just didn't have enough time or anything), they broke something in the released version that made the game unplayable and despite the developers releasing a fix for something that wasn't in the version they gave Valve in the same night, Valve took a week or so to update it - because you can't update your own game, at least not as minor business partner like mod and indie game developers are.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Not silly at all. Again, you are confusing the license with the product. I already said in the post you just replied to that the product itself can be sold (since you stated you were under the impression it is illegal to sell it) so, just like your previous replies, you rambled about something unrelated and didn't answer the questions presented.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
CD Projekt is the poster child for the above.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What you talking about there is nothing illegal about this... I thought you ment selling pirated or burnt games/movies/apps.... lol
If I have an unopened game/movie/or app I can do whatever I want with it buddy. Not sure where you live but in Canada its call reselling something you already bought gotten or owned.
I think a lot of people in this thread are cofusing reselling of software with pirating it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You are missing the most important point. I suggest you read the article in the link I posted a few posts back, specifically pay attention to what the lawyer, who specializes in this type of law, says about ownership and EULA's.
There is not one universal world law so telling me what I did and didn't do in regard to my purchase of a boxed software package without having a specific and thorough understanding of the applicable laws in my country and state is reaching.
I can tell you one thing that I do know, in NSW, Australia, when I walk into a store and purchase software, I can legally resell that software on Ebay, in the paper, at a garage sale.
I can tell you another thing that I do know, that that is not necessarily the case were I in the United States
Its not as simple as you think it is..
Surprised you said Skyrim. While it's certainly not without bugs/flaws, I think it's worth the price simply because you can easily get 100+ hours out of it, which I find well worth my money.
Anyway, I think most of the DRM we have now is a bit disguised to make pirates seem like the devil, when really a lot of it is a great way of stopping resale. It's working double-duty for companies. Not only is it stopping the resale when it's all tied to one account that can't be transferred, it's telling people "Hey, this is the fault of pirates. Grab your pitchfork and burn these bitches!". Sadly, it's working. I can almost see the suits twirling their mustaches in a nice office with a smirk. A bit ingenious really and perfect sleight of hand. Pirates take the fall for plain corporate greed, as boring and old a story as it gets (Without the pirates
. Next time you see always online DRM tied to other accounts you hold, don't think of what it's doing to pirates, think of what it's doing to stores like GameStop.
@Loktofeit - Thanks for the CDProjekt link. I didn't have the money at the time of Witcher 2's release so I forgot all about it and this is also a company I am happy to support, and that was before reading the article. Glad to see they still have the same attitude.
You still dont quite understand the differences here. Software and hardware are worlds apart and what applies to one cannot in the same vein be applied to another due the key differences between the two.
First sale concept only morally works when physical goods are at play, where the product itself manifest entirely in a physical object as the primary soure of the sale. When you purchase a software package, you own the packaging, but you are limited as to what you can do with the software. You cannot make your own copies of software and resell them, you cannot legally change or steal the software's code, you cannot modify it to call it your own and thus resell. You could on the otherhand, modify a physical product and resell it (modded computers, custom cars..ect). Software is intellectual property it can only ever be owned by those who have the rights to it (in this case the publisher).
It is not bad law nor a "silly american" thing to protect intellectual property. In fact the US is probably the best in the world at protecting intellectual property. There is always a right way to protect IP and there are of course bad ways to protect IP, most first world nations have a bit of both.
Have you looked at the case Vernor vs Autodesk? The person Vernor purchased used copies from had already upgraded the software and sold the old copies. Meaning, autodesk allows for upgrading old software for a lower cost as opposed to buying it new(upgrade charge). This means the software is upgraded, not replaced and yet while the owner of the license had old physical copies, they did not have the moral or legal right to sell the copies they used to get upgrades.
Without the license requirement, the EULA, there is less incentive for developers to create software and the intellectual property they cannot protect. The first sale rule is not entirely viable in the digital era. Reselling software, which can easily be copied and sold, copied and sold...ect muct have restrictions. Its why its a licensed product. You can always own the packaging, the medium but not the IP.
We are already seeing huge negative reactions to not enforcing license agreement in the used game industry. Game's like diablo 3 come empty... the only thing on the disc is a few mb internet installer. Meaning, you have to download gigs worth of game and have an account just to play it. You have the creation of expensive DLC to offset losses, DLC tied to online accounts only. You have games shipping with content missing, so even if you buy it used you would be required to purcahse the rest of the game (mass effect 2-3). Honestly none of this is friendly to the consumer. Back in the day, extra content was free..given by the developers who liked their creation. First party publishers and hardware developers such as Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft start charging more just for the console development, fees are put in place, more money grabbing features are built into the machines and software.
A lot of this could have been avoided if the used game market wasnt a rampant cancer in the industry, again making up around 75% of the losses a publisher will face.
Now it may be just me, but from here it just seems like you have a confirmation bias regarding both the US and the used game market, this could pontetially make it harder to understand what exactly is at stake here.
Yeah that particular case (Vernor vs Autodesk?) is the one I was looking at. I do understand what you are saying, however even in the US most states differ markedly on the validity of shrink wrapped licences.
"whereas in many cases, the so-called shrink-wrap "license" agreement has not been reviewed at the time of purchase (having been hidden inside the box), and therefore is arguably not part of the implicit legal agreement accompanying the sale of the copy, and is thus not enforceable by either party without further "manifestation of assent" to its terms. In general, a user is not legally obligated to read, let alone consent to any literature or envelope packaging that may be contained inside a product; otherwise such transactions would unduly burden users who have no notice of the terms and conditions of their possession of the object purchased, or the blind, or those unfamiliar with the language in which such terms are provided, etc"
Link
Edit: I actually support copyright laws. No one has the right to copy a software package and get it for free. It is stealing imo. However reselling software is not anything similiar to duplicating. Its like reselling a book as opposed to copying a book. The industry doesn't suffer any more losses to 2nd hand resellng than does the auto industry to second hand car sales.
False. Now, it's entirely possible this is another wasted effort to get you to support your claims, but I'll try anyway:
"I walk into a store and purchase software, I can legally resell that software on Ebay, in the paper, at a garage sale."
Can you list or link to the titles or States where that isn't true?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
False. Now, it's entirely possible this is another wasted effort to get you to support your claims, but I'll try anyway:
"I walk into a store and purchase software, I can legally resell that software on Ebay, in the paper, at a garage sale."
Can you list or link to the titles or States where that isn't true?
Depends...was that copyrighted material produced in the US or a foreign country? If it was imported to the US, then its currently a legal gray area (and has already landed one person in court for importing copyrighted material and reselling it), and could very well becoming fully illegal. The supreme court has agreed to rule on it, and was split 4 - 4 on it in 2010.http://www.natlawreview.com/article/supreme-court-to-decide-application-first-sale-doctrine-to-foreign-made-copyrighted-
Link
"Under the court’s decision in Vernor, all a copyright owner has to do to effectively repeal the statutory first sale doctrine is draft a EULA that (1) specifies that the user is granted a license; (2) significantly restricts the user’s ability to transfer the software; and (3) imposes notable use restrictions. Sad to say, it’s about as easy as falling off a log."
Seems these days, if there's a law anywhere that looks as if it might actually give some support or advantage to an individual, chances are you've misread it. The whole system has been hijacked by greedy lawyers and corrupt politicians to further the aims of their paymasters.
Most companies are able to exercise rights that are meant for individuals. So Ebay would be easily able to shutdown or prove in any court that attacking them for second hand sales is bullshit.
In most cases, the argument against second hand sales or the argument defending DRM fall short in common law as an injured party would have to prove damages which is, excuse the pun, virtually impossible. The majority of our legal system is too primitive for our type 1 civilization communications network aka all things digital.
It is extremely difficult to prove damages with digital theft unless the data in question was used for the purpose of gaining the thief some type of profit.
I think that the problem is that DRM is at the cost of the legit customer. It also always gets cracked, but meanwhile the customer still has to use the annoying DRM. While the person who plays a pirated copy, doesn't have that drawback. I don't understand how this DRM business is helping me as customer anyway. Piracy is their problem, not mine.
If I buy a singleplayer game I expect to be able to play any time when I want to. Lol at lag in single player or unavailable login servers.
That is not quite true, given the exchange rates in question. Typically, 1.5 to 2 of our dollars equals 1 euro or pound.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Today I found Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai for 28 US dollars in EBGames, with Box, CD's, Book and Bonus content. On Steam its 49.99 US dollars.
But the real killer is this -
I bring it home, instell the steam client (5 mins), client finishes installing and then hangs, eventually kill the process (10 mins), start the client, create a steam account (5 mins), install the first 2 disks, 3rd disk install crashes and steam wants to download the rest which is going to take 2 hours (20 minutes).
So I run the setup again, steam has to validate the installed files, its been validating those files for about 30 minutes, now its sititng on 100% validated doing nothing for the last 20 minutes, I think its locked up... (50 minutes).
This is the most frustrating annoying process, made even worse because I only want to play this non-steam game offline.
Cancelled the installed and going to try again, I don't hold out much hope.
Edit: Validating locked up again, cancelled. Uninstalled the game. Reinstalled the game. Now Steam has decided (without asking me) that I need a 3 gig update to play my box game offline. Started at 18:00 its now 22:00 although I did have dinner in between attempts. 3 hours 6 minutes estimated download.
They were used copies that he was selling. You kinda left out that part, Ikon.
To explain it further so that others don't have to wade through legalese and court docs:
A guy had legitimate copies of AutoCAD 14. He then bought the Upgrade Version of AutoCAD 15 and installed them with AutoCAD 14 as the qualifying software. He then sold the used AutoCAD 14 software - used software, currently licensed to him - to Tim Vernor, who then proceeded to try to sell it on eBay.
"I can tell you one thing that I do know, in NSW, Australia, when I walk into a store and purchase software, I can legally resell that software on Ebay, in the paper, at a garage sale.
I can tell you another thing that I do know, that that is not necessarily the case were I in the United States"
Ikon's representation of the scenario leaves out each of those key points because his argument completely falls apart when all the facts are present. There is nothing illegal in any State in America about walking into a store, puchasing software and reselling it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre