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Diablo II memories are not reality
Jay Wilson: Yeah, one of the lessons that we learned in development was people’s memories of Diablo II were way different than the reality of Diablo II. They remember all kinds of stuff that never actually happened in that game.
You silly people! Tell Jay you're sorry. All those things you enjoyed about Diablo II, you made them all up. Jay knows what you're up to! Those memories you have of the countless hours and fun times you had playing Diablo II were all made up. Only Jay Wilson really knows what fun is and you should totally understand why Jay gets to tell you what is fun and how you should be playing the game. The way Diablo III turned out should make sense now.
Is your mind blown that a game developer of the sequel to Diablo II would say such a thing? Here's the proof:
Comments
I dont see how you can take issue with what he said. That is how our memory works, best anti aliasing around. I remeber resident evil 1 very fondly and seeing throw back clips recently it was cheesy as hell but I loved it.
That is not how our memory works when people are still playing Diablo II. Would you like to tell them they have short term memory? All of them? Oh, Okay. Makes sense.
No I dont think they have short tem memory but I'm sure there are plenty of people who rember that game fondly just like I do resident evil. That game was like 10 years a go and I'm sure some people still play it and for others it's a collection of fond memories. Everything aint as good as it used to be rosey tinted glasses and all that.
Jay Wilson has a point, our memory tends to add glamour to things we fondly remember. If D3 would be exactly like D2, we would realize/remember the downfalls of D2 too, but we would feel familiar with them. Their attempt of correcting those downfalls have failed though, and in doing so they have generated several others that we do not feel any faimiliaty with.
He failed at articulating his point, but we are very familiar with that too. Did not surprise me at all
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They didnt just fail at correcting Diablo II flaws, they failed at creating a game worthy of having "Diablo" in the title.
I do agree with one thing, DII was not a great game. I liked a few things about it and I disliked a lot about it. When I think back to those days, I mostly remember how bad playing on battle.net got with all the exploits, cheats, duping, and how Blizzard took a rather lapse stance on trying to correct them. I remember a patch being worked on by a small team that took forever to come out and couldn't possibly live up to it's own expectations. I know people played it way after I couldn't even consider it anymore, but I never understood how. I definitely don't have any nostalgia for what that game became or how repetitive it was.
I think if he wants to consider why people remember Diablo so fondly, he shouldn't be comparing it with how things are now. He should compare it to other games out at the time. He should remember what it set out to be, not what it sank into. You can't put a shine on DII, toss away some of it's best parts, and call it DIII and expect everyone to love it. Expectations are different now than they were then. What was possibly revolutionary then is old hat now. That's how nostalgia works.
It feels like some hybrid between a MMO and a ARPG. It becomes obvious if you think about how quests and boss fights work in D3. They would fit perefectly in any theme park MMO. Doing the quests and leveling feels like playing a theme park MMO, IMO. Not at all like a Diablo game... In other ways its still more like a ARPG. But it is a hybrid. Almost like they couldnt decide what genre it should be.
Thats why I still think it should be called "World of Diablo, light multiplayer".
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So now game developers are trying to use the "rose-colored glasses"-type remarks to dismiss opinions unfavorable to their product?
Good grief.
It's funny how people become an expert on how memory works, or somehow know what people's experiences were like, or what they experienced, better than the person themself. Funny how it's also always in the service of trying to disprove or dismiss an opinion they disagree with.
"Oh, you didn't really enjoy the game that much. You're just seeing through rose-tinted glasses. The game had a lot of flaws and it wasn't as good as you remember it".
1. You don't know me or what I remember or how I remember it.
2. You don't know what I consider enjoyable or not enjoyable.
3. For games like Diablo II, all one has to do is go and install the game and play it and they can get a 100% up-to-date, hands-on repeat experience with it to find that it is, in fact, everything they remember it being. You can do a direct, side-by-side comparison of the two to experience what Diablo II "really was" and what Diablo III "really is". No rose-tinted glasses required.
4. You can have fond memories of something without having to "block out" all the bad. The two are not mutually exclusive, although fans of the "nostalgia goggle"/"rose colored glasses" argument never seem to consider that.
I remember every single frustrating and aggravating and hair-pullingly ridiculous detail of things in FFXI that made me wonder "WTF were SE thinking?" I remember plenty of negative experiences I had while playing it, with game mechanics, with vague quest information, with other players, and so on. I can recount to you, in detail, moments that made me want to cancel my subscription. Those haven't been swept under some "memory rug" leaving only the shiny, perfect memories that I want to remember. I remember all of it, good and bad.
Regardless, if I could go back to day 1 of FFXI's NA release on PC and play it again, knowing all the frustrating moments I'd have in the following 7 years or so, I would do so in a heartbeat. Why? Because the fun and enjoyment and great memories that came from it far outweighed the negative.
I could say the same for a number of other games. Thanks to sites like GOG.com, I'm playing through some games I haven't touched in almost 20 years. You know what? They're still as fun as I remember them. No "nostalgia goggles" or rose-colored memory filters required.
The whole "rose-colored glasses" argument is nothing more than a pseudo-intellectual cop-out used by those intolerant of any opinion different from their own.
When someone says "Oh, you think "such and such game" was great? Well, that's not how I remember it. So you must be seeing through nostalgia goggles", the only response they deserve is a suggestion to take their arm-chair, Cracker Jack box psycho-analysis and shove it.
Lol, some of the things that seems great today might not have been as great back then... People tend to forget tha bad stuff and particularly SWG vets seems to have this selective amnesia.
Jay is not really saying what you think he does. Funny enough is my memory like that from D1, I remember D2 about the same way most people here talk about D3. Not that I am much for D3 but that is no reason to complain, Jay did never say D2 wasn´t fun, just that it wasn´t exactly what many people remember.
The memory is funny that way, it like to ignore storing the boring and bad stuff.
Again, it's very easy to dismiss an opinion that you disagree with by claiming that. But can you prove it?
If someone feels Diablo II was the best game ever made, how do you know "how they remember it compared to how they really experienced it"? You don't. You can only assume to know, and your assumption is going to be colored by what your opinion is or was of it.
Even if they are selectively remembering things, there's no way you could know that unless you're capable of reading minds, and mining their memories. So even if you were somehow right in making that assertion, there's no way you could actually prove it, because you do not know what people remember or how they remember it better than they do.
Again, it's nothing but a lazy, pseudo-intellectual argument used to dismiss an opinion someone disagrees with. It's in the same category as someone saying "well if you thought "game x" was better than "game y", then you're obviously not a real gamer". Only the "nostalgia goggles" argument is used specifically for older games.
The moment someone can install Diablo II, play through it and have the experience be exactly what they remember, or damn close to it, any "nostalgia goggle" type argument is blown to bits. That's when the "rose-colored glasses" crap gets ripped away and what you're left with is someone demonstrating intolerance of an opinion different from their own, which we see around here everyday, all day long.
i agree
I know some players re-installed D2 after being disappointed with D3
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Biggest differences in D2 and D3 are simply that D2 wasnt built around an AH, RMAH and gold purchasing service..
My blind purchase of the D3 alpha has opened my eyes and gaurantees i will never buy or play another blizzard game again..
D3 feels like it was made in a week with everything wrapped around the AH instead of being somewhat self supportive..
D2 i definately dropped plenty of usable/tradable,twinky gear to where in D3 it just never happens and you will not progress without using the AH over level 50 especially after 1.03..
I played D2 for literally years on and off as my main companion game however D3 is already off of my hard drive..
Playing GW2..
I just read another excuse. It is just a derogatory generalisation. What a nice way to talk about your potential customers.
couldn't have said it better. I really want to like D3 and keep trying to play it (1.03 kinda helped in terms of drops actually being close to your level at end game) but can't get over the fact that it doesn't bring me close to the same enjoyment that D2 does. I have played D2 off and on for 10 years or so, and I don't think I will ever say that for D3. But we shall see..
loved your FFXI example, I too played that game for almost 3 years and remember all the bad, but would do it all over again even with hindsight if I could.
Yes, in the case of Diablo 2, it is a game that you can still pick up and play and easily compare. It is not a long lost MMO (or a life experience) that is not available anymore. So I agree with you that he shouldn't claim that based on D2.
But I don't think you can dismiss that opinion all together just because it doesn't work like that for your memory. You can still claim that in general many! (not all) people tend to remember good times more positively then what was the reality. Nostalgia works like that (when about experiences that can't be repeated anymore). For example, People wishing they were kid again, conveniently ignoring the fact that as kid they didn't know what to expect as adult so they weren't able to cherish what they had etc. Just ask a psychologist or historian about this
Nostalgia or no nostalgia. Give D3 graphics to D2 and the updated Diablo II game would still be better than D3.
"The more confident we are, the more such memories threaten our self-image. How can we be such good investors if we made those mistakes in the past? Instead of remembering the past accurately, in fact, we will remember it selectively so that it suits our needs and preserves our self-image."
From here:http://news.morningstar.com/classroom2/course.asp?docId=145104&page=3&CN=COM
Selective memory is a scientific fact.
As for me being gamer I bought my first C-64 in 1984 and have been playing MMOs since Meridian 59.
And no, I don't trust my memory entirely, sometimes it wasn't exactly asI remember it, and I know people who alters what have happened to them a lot. Like this guy who found God and suddenly forgot a lot of what he have done and said he always been a Christian (he was Wiccan before).
No way, lets update the original Diablos graphics instead. Neither game was close and that is not just my memory, I killed of 2 new mouses (mise?) while playing it. D2 I played 2 months just.
10 yrs ago since Resident Evil 1? Try about 15-16 yrs ago. I played it on Playstation in 1997
"The reason people find it so hard to be happy is that they always see the past better than it was, the present worse than it is, and the future less resolved than it will be." - Marcel Pagnol
I find this true for almost any game I play. When I play it it's pretty darn good, but as time passes my memories of the game make it much more fond than it was. My memory almost makes it seem like the greatest game ever made. Regardless, I really didn't enjoy Diablo III very much so doubt that's gonna happen lol.
That's fine. People can have selective memories. I don't deny that. However, that does not mean that everyone always does. And that's where the problem lies in using the the "rose tinted" argument.
It's abused to the point of being meaningless. It shares the same status as saying "go back to WoW", to anyone who dislikes a MMO someone else is a fan of. It has as much intelletual weight as assuming someone only enjoys WoW because it's the only MMO they've ever played. It shares the same ignorance as assuming anyone who enjoys open world PvP stands around ganking newbies all day long. It's a lazy and ignorant non-argument used solely to dismiss a differing opinion instead of actually addressing it. It's an intellectually dishonest cop-out used to suit those people's needs and preserve their self-image.
I can not even begin to recount how many times someone has said that to me about FFXI, or Anarchy Online or any other older-school MMO I've played and have expressed an enjoyment of in the past. Whether I'm discussing the game directly, or using it as an example to illustrate a related point, someone almost inevitably comes along and says "Well, FFXI was never a very good game. You're just remembering it through nostalgia goggles, so your point is invalid". They're not making an argument by saying that. They're saying it to dismiss my point so they can avoid addressing it at all.
As I said in my post above, I remember my early experiences in FFXI quite well. I do not only cling to the things that support my "needs and self-image". I happen to value the accuracy and validity of information and so, I make it a point to remember the good along with the bad. Are there many people who will cherry-pick and selectively choose to remember only things that suit them? Absolutely. Some people do it knowingly and deliberately, because all that matters to them is "winning the argument". If "winning the argument" means having to cherry-pick details, then that's what they'll do.
And at the end of the day, you can't conveniently sum up "everyone" with quotes from manuals or books or individuals, because everyone does not fit the same mold. That's why you will never see me dismiss others' opinions as "being tinted by nostalgia", no matter how much I might disagree with them. I will never tell someone "no, the game wasn't that good, you're just remembering the good parts", because that would be embarassingly arrogant of me to do. The fact of the matter is, I don't know those people. I don't know what they remember or how they remember it. I don't know how they value those memories. And so, it is not my place to dismiss them just because they don't happen to fit my personal narrative of the situation.
I'm sure lots of people don't remember what Diablo 2 was like - but I do.
Diablo 2 appeals to me - TODAY - much more than Diablo 3.
But the really sad part of this, is that Diablo 2 had a ton of flaws - and Diablo 3 shouldn't have been the same kind of game, it SHOULD have been a genuine evolution of the genre. They had every opportunity to take things further - and instead they took most things several steps back.
Worst parts of D3 are:
Streamlined and boring item design (especially weapons).
Zero class replayability (outside of HC mode).
Super streamlined class mechanics eliminating the strategy of planning a character.
AH design, destroying the carrot-based loot hunt - and making it a farming game instead.
Essentially, the game is a good short-term experience, with excellent moment-to-moment gameplay and fantastic production values.
But it's not a game that will be perpetually interesting, unless you're into the whole RMAH aspect of trying to get rich playing the game. I can see how that can be appealing, but it's pretty removed from the actual gameplay.
I've been playing Diablo 2 for 8 years, i played it just yesterday.
I quit Diablo 3 after a week, of playing like a hour a day, i got maybe 3 hours in the first time i played, and it just bored the living bejesus out of me.
Very well said
Unfortunately, the percentage of people focused on valid information and the hunt for a truly reasonable position - is very, very low compared to those who use their emotional needs to validate any argument that suits their position, regardless of being obviously invalid or without solid underpinning.
It doesn't help that so many debates happen online - where no one is truly accountable for what they say, and so many don't feel the need to justify their position or behave in a reasonably pleasant manner.