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Explain your opinion
Nightverge
Member Posts: 211
This thread is specifically for people who DON'T like GW2. I'm hoping to gain some understanding in a few areas. Primarily, what is it you don't like about the game? Explanations in most other threads don't go far beyond "the questing system is the same" or some similarly vague responses. Obviously I'm a fan of the game (as you could probably tell by my signiture). Many of the complaints don't make sense to me right now. Here are some examples.
"The combat isn't that innovative". -- So you would prefer to have stagnant combat?
"The quests aren't innovative" -- So you would prefer a normal quest system rather than dinamic events?
"The quests have the same objectives as in other MMO's (Gathering, killing, etc)" -- These are the only objectives you can possibly have in a video game. Some form of killing, gathering, solving, or protecting. All objectives in every game revolve around doing one of those four things. What other objectives were you looking for?
"Everything is zerging" -- This is only true if you consider a zerg to be any large collection of players. To me, a zerg is any group of players that just spams attacks and steamrolls everything. Zerging, by this definition, is impossible in WvWvW (you will just get destroyed by siege equipment) and in PvE it depends on the DE. Having said that, what were some of you expecting playing with large groups of players to be like? Is there any reference of a game involving dozens and dozens of players that doesn't result in chaotic gameplay?
"The trinity isn't actually dead" -- This is one of the more stunning complaints. Not once throughout my experience did I ever sit in town or have to wait for a group, much less a specific class. In fact I roamed the countryside with a full group of thieves and we did great.
"The game is Pay 2 Win" -- How? Every item in the cash shop is completely anti-P2W. Would some of you prefer to pay a subscription fee rather than have a cash shop with completely optional items? If so, explain why.
More specifically, for any reason you may have I'm looking for what you were expecting it to be like and some reference of a game (out or even in development) that seems to do it better. Go crazy 
.
Comments
Personally dynamic events clash with my playstyle. I like to be able to start what I finish, not walk into the middle of it.
The game is just another themepark MMO, nothing special.
Truth be told I am sick of MMOs, I started with Ragnarok online in 2000 (In my opinion still the best seige warfare EVER) and I played it as a religion for 7 years and also being in the best alliance (Wave) if anyone remembers on server chaos. After that and in between that I tried several other MMOs including wow/aoc/aion/war/etc etc the list goes on, and I loved them all, why? because the grind in Ragnarok was soooooooooo bad (at the moment I played RO I didnt think of it much) that i just fell in love with all the new MMOs, but for me there was something missing(however once in a while available in WOW/Aion/WAR) which was Siege with 100s of people and organization. GW2 bring this team play + 100s of players working together this aspect of the game is what I am all about.
But on the other hand PvE is not my thing, I am a GW + GW2 fan but not a fanboy defination, I played gw solely for PVP and with GW2 i did have a little bit of fun with PVE but I think my days of PvE are over with the last game I played which was Aion and WoW, I do not even but RPGs any more (However I did enjoy morowwind) so that aspect of you know party up to PvE is no longer with me and I think its just a matter of age for me. I am 30 I have been playing PC games since I was 11 primarily FPS and had only gotten into MMOs with Ragnarok, I just couldnt take the grind anymore (not that I feel GW2 has Grind) its just I cannot do PvE any more because I am not required to.
This brings me to my point WvW is where my heart lives and thank you anet for for this, I am able to get back into battle where a structure in a guild makes all the difference in how the outcome will be. PvE i could care less although I think most of you people will love it my heart is in PVP.
I love the game and have loved it since GW but only for the PVP. PVE has taken a toll on my gaming sense.
Hope you all understand.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
The art style and animations just ruin the game for me.
Short and simple. Just 1 noobs opinion
Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
From the perspective of a sandbox-fan or theme-park-hater and on a very high level of abstraction, you are fully correct.
Nevertheless, GW2 is a pretty different kind of theme-park. They analyzed the mistakes of the wow-era and tried to avoid some bad core design-paradigms of the 2nd gen theme-park. This is a first step into the right direction. However, its still a theme-park and a lot of work to do. More design paradigms of the theme-park have to be changed. If GW2 becomes a success, we may see some gw-clones doing the next step.
Looking back to 8 years of dumb wow-clones, i am very excited about GW2. At the same time, i am very angry, that they had not the balls to do it right. Ok, from a business perspective it makes much sense to change the theme-park step-by-step.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
You ever play a game that you can appreciate the time and effort put into it... The graphics are good, the systems are all solid, the sound and music is great, ui, the details... All of it, as a gamer, I can say are very well done. But personally, its just doesn't appeal to me.
I cannot do another high fantasy setting, at least not for a while. Esport and ladder systems kill pvp for me in an mmorpg format. Node farming is a decade old concept that needs to die a slow, painful death. Why the hell they didnt incorporate crafting and gathering into the DE system is beyond me.
I really wanted to like the DEs and for the most part they are an ingenious display of art in motion. But it irks me that at any given time, there is only one way to "win" a DE. There is no push and pull, no alternate paths. Because that would mean a conflict of interest between groups of players wanting to yield different results from the same DE. And that is considered griefing according to Anet. So multiple choice DEs are out. Everyone has the same objective toward the same result.
PvP is so literal, it just falls flat. I dont log into a virtual world to fight against Billy Bob for the chance to win some PC swag. I dont feel like my server is a "faction". Nobody I know does. Yet these are our incentives to PvP. Server pride and cash prizes. Ive done that for VF tournaments and thats where I prefer they stay. I play mmorpgs to roleplay a character in a made up world. That used to be the majority, but now I mostly get my balls busted for even trying to rp.
Anyway. All the stuff I wrote is only my point of view. I know its different than many of you on this forum and I honestly feel this is a quality AAA mmo but it is not made for me or people that share my pov. And thats totally ok. This game is going to be a ton of fun for years to come for probably millions of people. That is awesome. I love seeing happy gamers. I may have found an mmo home for myself as well and we should all be giving each other high fives for surviving a rough drought the past few years.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Your rhetoric would make a good essay on argumentative tactics:
- Combat must be good, if you disagree you must like bad combat
- Quests are the same, reducing quest mechanic to barebones so there is no alternative
- Cant be a zerg, let me just define zerg for you...
- Didn't have to wait for a group therefore there is no trinity
- Pay 2 win, postulate only alternative as an unattractive solution
GW2 is a good game, just not for me.
Here is my list-
Horrible FPS (due to beta most probably)
Skills limited to weapons, i hate that
Teleporting around, it makes the world seem small
The stupid server lock thing
Questing, It feels like a new way of doing the old method, I didn't like it at all, just felt like a grind and box check ...it was soooooo boring
Can jump to highest level to PVP, i hate that
Cash shop(although I don't know much about it)
Loading screens between zones
I don't like the way the game maniupulates your level to correspond to the content
No open world PVP
Little to no character progression
I didn't care for the story and don't really like the lore
The price is rediculous, glad I played it on roommates account before purchasing
It felt like a crappy PVP E-sport with optional, kinda pointless PVE, and to be honest I enjoy PVE more.
PVP was bland and repetitive
The whole game seemed like one massive zerg
But what I hate most of all, this has taken me from disliking the game to down right hating it, are the fans. I have never seen such deluded people in all my life. On this site alone I have read posts claiming that GW2 is redefining MMOs, that it will sale upwards of 30 million copies, that all other MMOs will become void, that developers will start modeling their MMOs after GW2,that A-NET are the greatest developers ever. Every day I see the same crazy hype for a game that is, in my opinion, mediocre at best. These guys keep talking down to people "oh if you don't like GW2 you just don't like MMOs". It's very infuriating.
----Also, I bet I get someone who will quote this post and try to refute my own opinion.
I dont like the combatstile nor the events,so I guess I wont play this game for long
I disagree somewhat. It differs from Thempark MMO´s because it challenges you to go out in the wild and just explore.
Its very much different when you look at the way the world is divided.... there are 4 major gameparts.
Personal story (themepark)
Open world PvE, much more open then themepark, still not a sandbox, but sandbox people might actually have a good time here
Structured PvP (E sports)
WvWvW. very open world PvP.. there are no restrictions and there is both PvE and PvP parts... its a sanbox inside the themepark....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
How about combat system like in Battlefield 3, Deus Ex, Left 4 Dead or maybe in some other FPS. Combat system that is not based to characters armor, class and weapon statistics. Combat system that is based on your own skills. Combat system that is not copied from some pen & paper RPG rules - but actually using virtual reality world created in our computer systems.
umm... how about me and my guild want to walk to wilderness and start our own city state.
First we cleanse area from orcs, trolls and other local population that might be harmful for our peasants and live stock. Then we start building our farms and town - and later update our town to large city with walls and NPC patrols keeping local fauna away. Sooner or later we should decide if we want to pledge our loyalty to large NPC empire (with huge taxes and loss of priviledges) that will protect our collective asses from other player ruled states, keep our freedom and fight alone or join to alliance of city states.
Occasionally we would need to defend our place against horde of orcs that are thinking that our castle walls are weak - or maybe we must cure sickness that is killing our farmers live stock by travelling around cuntry to find cure. Sometimes powerful orc king might raise to power and eliminating king would require co-operation from multiple states. If we ever would stop playing, monsters would slowly run over our city state and eventually looters would steal our treasures from our ruined castle.
MMO developers should stop thinking about quests, writing stories and designing world. Instead they should start thinking about how they can give interactions, mechanisms and tools for players - and same time keep somekind balance and fairness to keep world fun for everyone.
"I know I said this was my last post, but you my friend are a idiotic moron." -Shadow4482
To be honest, that statement pretty much sums up this thread so far. And shouldn't be that big of a shock.
Fans of the game like it for what it is. People turned off by the game (on these forums) just don't want a fantasy / themepark RPG. So they generalize it. "its another themepark MMO, holding off for a 'real MMO' (insert sandbox here)" etc. etc. Most of the deal-breakers i'm seeing have to do with either the setting, the fact that it is a themepark (different or not), and the lack of 'true open world pvp'.
This should speak volumes, and I'm actually glad this game isn't another Darkfall. I will keep an eye out to see how Archeage does, but for many of us that type of play just doesn't make sense anymore.
Art style is something that¨people can have different opinions of, but in general with the many prices that GW2 allready won to proove it, the majorrity of people adores the art style of GW2. But if you disagree, thats your opinion.
The annimations are technically the most advanced of any MMO to date, because they still allow total freedom of movement while battling while still feeling very natural to me. Could you please explain what exactly you dont like about the annimations?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The price is rediculous??????????????
Basically, DEs are a great invention and a step into the right direction. Arenanet made it better than Trion, because their Rifts are just an add-on on a classic quest-centric world with hubs and such. But GW2 still have these heart-quests. They are different, but they convey linearity. i would have prefered a full DE-based system, which was discussed at Arenanet initially, afaik. I see why Arenanet introduced these quests for better orientation, but i call it halfassed.
Also the Dynamic Events are mostly not as dynamic as expected. They should have more branches, options and results. Perhaps the devs need better tools in order to create such more dynamic events with a given budget. so we will see more dynamics in the near future as the devs toolsets do improve.
Another problem you mention, when you miss an alternate path to approach encounters, is, that also these DEs are still part of a highly regulated game. Regulation is the #2 Big Bad Design Paradigm of the theme-park after the #1 Linearity. Even if Arenanet did well in order to create a less linear game, they did nothing against regulation. Regulation means, that the devs try to control at any given time and location, whats the power of the player (stats, items, ....) and his NPC enemies. They try to ensure, that the player will most propably win and is happy. Just follow the path and you will get all the items, all the skills and whatever is needed, in order to kill the next mob or fullfill the next task on your path. And yes, there is a path in GW2! The path is less obvious than with questhubs and you have more of a chance to do things beside the path, but you are clearly directed by your level.
So they could not allow many alternate ways of combat-gameplay. It is in conflict with regulation. The pulling game you mentioned, is strictly forbidden in a regulated game. It would trivialize every encounter, if not all encounters are designed with pulling in mind. But then every class would need to be a puller according to Arenanets philosophy: Never harm a player.
Same with Crowd-Control. GW2s CC is pretty weak compared to CC heavy games like e.g. EQ1. But EQ1 was a mainly unregulated theme-park. If you like to regulate the game and control the players in any situation, you have to limit their options to do things. If not, you run in a hell of balancing issues and expoloits from the perspective of a theme-park-dev.
But now we come to #3 of the Big Bad Mistakes of game-design: Balancing. And thats a very complex beast. So is better stop here.
Nevertheless, GW2 is the best theme-park i saw since ages. I am just afraid, the endgame will offer nothing to me. Just before people say: "there is no endgame". For me endgame starts, if the initial way of progression ends and changes dramatically. In standard theme-parks this happens at max-level usually. In GW2 there is a similar point, even if it is not max-level neccessarily.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Shop prices will be under $50 for sure... Combined with no sub thats probably the cheepest AAA+ MMO we have seen in years.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
If I would break down wow as simple as possible without turning into gibbersih it'd be
Quests - Pre endgame
Geargrind (raids or BG/arena) - Endgame
Trinity
(could insert combat but i feel combat in and of itself is rather meaningless EVE's combat is horrible on it's own but it's very fun if you are in a massive universe shaping fleet battle, like wise tera's combat is awesome but utterly mindnumblingly boring when all you do with it is kill the same mob over and over)
So GW2 is different on the most defining points that make up wow (to me atleast) so that is rather.. big and worthy of attention in a world filled with wowclones (which have the 3 mentioned above).
Uhm... what!? Regardless of your stance on GW2... WTF!?
Regulation is a key part of design. All good design has this, whether you're making a game or not. As designs are basically plans laid out for any type of system, or information, you have to regulate in order to accomplish this. Having no regulation is not good design, it's having no design. Even a good sandbox will have regulation, because they will be designing the game to accomplish a certain idea, or goal for the players. This doesn't mean it has to be linear, and it doesn't mean it can't be open. But there has to be some form of thought, and control inplace, for something to be a game or a design.
And... balancing? Seriously.. balancing is your #3 big flaw of design? You think having a horribly imbalanced game is good design? Again.. what!? Bad balancing is a flaw, yes.
Where do these ideas come from? Is this seriously what kids are being taught in game design programs these days? It would explain an awful lot.
I liked the support of a game pad in TERA, when I had a chance to play the beta. In my opinion this also should be possible in GW2, The dodging and few skills beg for it.
Hmm... maybe a mix of both plus several minigames. Currently you have WAR without quests, which may get boring fast. The Public Quests scale, but imagine you find a Dynamic Event and there is no other player around. Sure you do have your Personal Quest, but it is just one quest line. I didn´t read much about the minigames people played in beta yet. Well, of course the trinity isn´t dead. I am curious though, how the GW2 system works in later levels or more challenging areas. Perhaps it will work like the group play in Diablo 3.
I guess GW2 is more about Pay2Convenience, which is fine with me. But in my opinion buying the client is not good then. Sure, you can play it whenever you want, since there is no sub fee. But just look at your hard disc full of games: you can play them whenever you want, too, but how often do you play most of your games?In case of GW2 it may happen like this: you will play extensively in the first month, then at some point you will get bored. You may be interested in this game again, when a buyable add-on releases.
So there is the standard cycle: buy a game at full price -> get bored -> buying add-on... and on top of it a cash shop.
I would even say GW2 won´t have the longevity GW1 had. A big part of it were dual classes and loads of skills. Now you choose to have more balance at the cost of diversity.
Its a shame all these sandbox people dont realise that GW2 has much more to offer to them then any other Sandbox MMO.
Open world and keep conquering PvP mixed with PvE in the WvWvW. Its a sepperate game, and if you see it like that its very sandboxy in nature.
No more set paths from quest hub to questhubs, but a challenge to set your own path through the world. Just travel and find out what happens in the world, live and breath the stories. Be surprised.
and more and more, you people just need to read between the lines.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Well, i defenatly don't hate the game, but there are things i don't like of course.
Combat is great, but classes feel so bland and meh. Mesmer and engineer are cool, but the rest feel so homogenized and not unique enough
DE and HE are a great step in questing, but they're all kill, fecth and escort quests
Personall story is just meh IMO.
And the pvp, while nice because of the combat, etc, feels so useless and unimportant. I mean, BG's and general pvp already does many times in themeparks, but it's so seperated from the "world" (pve part), that i don't think there's a connection.
Again, it's important to remember that this doesn't mean i hate the game at all, and many of my complaints may go away in time, but these are just a few of them. Not going to go into a fully detailed review, but overall, goodmmorpg.
It's not speculation. Read the posts that were posted before mine.
'don't like it cause it doesn't have Open World PvP'
'it's a themepark, still the same old crap'
'i just don't like fantasy rpg settings anymore'
'I don't like the hard zoning, makes the world seem small'
I may be paraphrasing, but these are all elements that are typically associated with themeparks, and most of the people that don't like these have been either looking forward to, or asking for a new sandbox game. Not one of these people said they don't like MMOs, or that they just can't play MMOs anymore. It's always been jabbing at a themepark element or another as a dealbreaker.
THIS is another major issue of the theme-park. well, i have no idea, how to design such a non-linear, dynamic, player driven world in a higly regulated theme-park. what you describe is exactly the strength of a good non-linear unregulated sandbox with events.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I can imagine that they feel that GW2 is lacking too much in the most important aspect of any sandbox: freedom.