No, it is not overly narrow, it is to this day misused. The trinity is and forever will be, in gaming, Tank / Heal / Crowd control. Modern tanks may tank "great", but they are not a tank in the original sense of the word, they now have abilities designed to decrease down time and increase soloability. Note the chart showing everquest classes, warrior was a pure melee class with no spell casting ability, the same as the core D and D ruleset, which all of this came from originally.
Todays tanks have spell casting abilities, more classes have a self heal or heal over time or a group heal, more classes can insta travel or the game mechanics allow everyone to travel (flight or teleport) at a low level. My point is not that any of these mechanics past or present are right or wrong, my point is that the the more abilities we give a "class" the less that class has to depend on others to get the most out of the game. This led to the community, guilds and groups that exist today, the Trinity is vilified, PUG's are a forum punch line and guilds are a glorified chat room. As the focus of MMO's have shifted to level grind / end game, with everything else an add on, the needs for a guild have decreased even more.
"Original sense of the word"? They're tanks. They stand in front and soak damage.
Why do you feel it's relevant whether a tank has spellcasting ability or adheres to D&D rules? It doesn't matter if you're a ToR Vanguard shooting enemies with a blaster rifle. If you're the guy attracting and soaking the damage, you're the tank.
And despite all those abilities devs give out, if it's a trinity-based game you're going to need a tank. You might be able to solo at a certain rate, but you're going to (a) hit a wall where that's no longer possible and/or (b) advance faster in a group. Both of which provide sufficient encouragement to depend on others.
As for "glorified chat room", you might recall the time when all early MMORPGs were being called that (not just guilds; the entire game.) At least until they became more game-like, which is where we're at now.
I do think it's possible to have a grouping-only MMORPG, but it has to be paired with enormous grouping conveniences (more like TF2 or LoL where grouping is simply how you play the game, and joining a group is so completely effortless (and prompt) that it's not even thought of as "joining a group".)
Until we see that style of gameplay emerge however, allowing solo progress will always improve a game more than it detracts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just kill off the trinity and be done with it. people keep saying they want MMO's that push the envelope, well using the Tinity doesn't help in that respect.
Yeah, I seen points including DoT healers and Burst healers, but they pretty much serve the same purpose, but just as a different utility. I personally do not believe that a specific situation defines a role, only the specfic expectation from one.
Stealth can define a role, but would you break it down into who has it permanently/temporarily? Or in varied degrees of opacity? I think not.
Buff/Debuff specialist. Not a tank, not a healer, not a dps, and not a crowd control. Can increase the tanks health regen, can increase the healers power regen, and increase the dps damage, can increase the tanks armor, can improve the healers heals, can decrease the opponents attack speed, attack power, movement rate, etc.
That I agree with. So I can see the spectrum as a 5-point one;
Raising Health (Healer) > Lowering Health (DPS) > Stasis (tank) > Diverting Attention (CC) > Changing Values (Buff/Debuff)
~Would be interesting to see a 5-class game where they all can do a bare-minimum of each, but specialize in one... but can anyone else figure if an angle is still missing from this lineup?
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Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
That I agree with. So I can see the spectrum as a 5-point one;
Raising Health (Healer) > Lowering Health (DPS) > Stasis (tank) > Diverting Attention (CC) > Changing Values (Buff/Debuff)
~Would be interesting to see a 5-class game where they all can do a bare-minimum of each, but specialize in one... but can anyone else figure if an angle is still missing from this lineup?
Well, if you're going to have whole classes who mostly only do things like 'stand there and get hit' or 'make healthbars go up', why not have specialties like informational? Somebody who can supply people with information they otherwise wouldn't know.
Well, if you're going to have whole classes who mostly only do things like 'stand there and get hit' or 'make healthbars go up', why not have specialties like informational? Somebody who can supply people with information they otherwise wouldn't know.
You're saying that's not basically what tanks and healers do currently? I didn't say they couldn't do sparse attacks between fits of doing their jobs, again, like it is currently.
As for information laundering, I don't think that really suits all that much of a purpose in the end, especially seeing as you'd have to go into the design with the full purpose of omitting major conventions like healthbars and status icons. Even then, a group can survive just as well without one.
Plus, wikis exist, and can give people preemptive info on just about any creature in game. They would have to change weaknesses on the fly or something, and even then, I doubt any developer is smart enough to *not* telegraph the direction of said changes in particle effects. They only seem to learn through hindsight these days.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I still loved GW1 Mesmers. Using the opponents strengths against them is a very interesting concept.
The problem with buffers is that the buffs are either useless or mandatory or situational. There is no balanced. Games where you could cast buffs on others that lasted a long time eventually had players maintain 2 accounts so that their dps could be buffed (DAOC, SWG).
In EQ buff/debuff classes were incredibly strong as to be mandatory for hard content.
So then MMOs restricted buff duration or to party or made them weaker in general. WoW buffs as a whole are very weak in comparison to some of the older buffs. Due to the tightly tuned nature of raids they were very useful though.
The problem with the trinity is required classes. It puts a large divide on users being able to party up...systems that allow you to have more freedom in what you are doing get boring less quickly as well. Adding more roles to the trinity just divides the population up more...unless....
Get rid of the trinity CLASS system.....I want a trinity (or trinity+) ROLE system. There is a distinct difference.
That I agree with. So I can see the spectrum as a 5-point one;
Raising Health (Healer) > Lowering Health (DPS) > Stasis (tank) > Diverting Attention (CC) > Changing Values (Buff/Debuff)
~Would be interesting to see a 5-class game where they all can do a bare-minimum of each, but specialize in one... but can anyone else figure if an angle is still missing from this lineup?
Well, if you're going to have whole classes who mostly only do things like 'stand there and get hit' or 'make healthbars go up', why not have specialties like informational? Somebody who can supply people with information they otherwise wouldn't know.
It also puts a lot of stock in people willing to listen and act on your information. Which can sometimes be much harder then performing your own role well.
You're saying that's not basically what tanks and healers do currently? I didn't say they couldn't do sparse attacks between fits of doing their jobs, again, like it is currently.
As for information laundering, I don't think that really suits all that much of a purpose in the end, especially seeing as you'd have to go into the design with the full purpose of omitting major conventions like healthbars and status icons. Even then, a group can survive just as well without one.
Plus, wikis exist, and can give people preemptive info on just about any creature in game. They would have to change weaknesses on the fly or something, and even then, I doubt any developer is smart enough to *not* telegraph the direction of said changes in particle effects. They only seem to learn through hindsight these days.
Oh no, I agree, that's basically what they do. I've watched serious WoW raids more than once, gah, a screen full of health bars seems like playing Progress Quest with QTEs.
Obviously it'd require random monsters for information to have any value, yes. Though you could have it so ONLY the certain class could see the changes in particle effects. There is of course the problem that you'd have to get people to listen to you, of course... though I once came up with a design where every class sees the world differently and each has a role based on controlling what they see, rather than what the other people see, everybody relying on other people to do their jobs and deal with the threat they can see.
other then the tank, sounds like what you are describing already exists in GW2 actually. They have regen aoe buffs, ranged attacks that can pick off runners, and buffers that do damage. It's all in how you spec your toon and which weapons you use. but it most importantly doesn't limit gameplay with groups by forcing people to have specific classes to use per encounter. That's why I'm so excited about it, I can be an engineer debuffer/regen healer and have a great time.
It also puts a lot of stock in people willing to listen and act on your information. Which can sometimes be much harder then performing your own role well.
And Voice Communication would be at a premium.
If the choice is between listening to you or dying, I think at least SOME people could be trained to listen. Some.
Also, you could have in-game methods of communicating the information. Whether it's calling targets (Attacking Midboss's left hand), or even an idea I came up with while I showered... how about a class that can 'paint' different colored auras on the world?
Weak spot on an enemy? Paint it green. Enemy is switching over to fire mode, so does extra fire damage and is weak to ice? Paint their head red. They've set a trap on a ground? Paint it orange. Their aura is connected to a series of various crystals in a cave that is feeding the boss more life? Paint them purple so people know which specific ones to destroy (That'd be FASTER than going by voice, really 'No, the crystal to the... left a little more... no up... no back right... dammit, the one NEXT to it. Next to it the other direction! GODDAMIT, LEFT IS THE OPPOSITE OF RIGHT)
Etc etc.
I mean, that's pretty simplistic, but I came u pwith it in 15 minutes while doing important showery... things. Give me a break. It wouldn't be hard to do systems like that, where actually learning AND divulging information are game mechanisms, rather than something you do because you have vent.
It'd be a pretty challenging class, really, it'd be how fast can you determine what is the most important information to divulge, and then distribute it swiftly and efficiently. You'd have to design a game so there's a lot of important things TO know, as opposed to your average MMORPG 'Oh, he's a badguy and he hits things', but it's possible with a design shift.
The point should be to have fun roles - not to try and make a boring role fun to play.
I wouldn't want to play a game which forces players into playing something they do not like but the group needs. Healers are hard to find as it is. A class like bard, which is often a "buff-bot" is extremely boring to play and majority will agree. Still if it has a dramatic effect on the group's survival groups are going to want one. But very few will play one. Then again, if it doesn't really add to the group's effectiveness, you wont find 'em in any groups.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
EQ mastered grouping like no other game and allowed for classes like the Enchanter and Shaman to flourish as viable group members while lying outside the trinity. A good group in EQ was hard to find but when you did it operated like a finely tuned machine.
The problem is that if you require too many roles, it takes a long time to find group. Even with 3 roles, it can take up to 10 min on LFD in WOW, which has a ton of players.
Do people really want to wait 30 min to get a group? I don't.
Originally posted by Quirhid The point should be to have fun roles - not to try and make a boring role fun to play.I wouldn't want to play a game which forces players into playing something they do not like but the group needs. Healers are hard to find as it is. A class like bard, which is often a "buff-bot" is extremely boring to play and majority will agree. Still if it has a dramatic effect on the group's survival groups are going to want one. But very few will play one. Then again, if it doesn't really add to the group's effectiveness, you wont find 'em in any groups.
I agree, that was the point of the thread. What can be done to these roles to make them fun, what other roles can we think of that are fun .. but it's digressed into opinion flinging about whether the trinity is good or not plenty of other threads about that.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Comments
"Original sense of the word"? They're tanks. They stand in front and soak damage.
Why do you feel it's relevant whether a tank has spellcasting ability or adheres to D&D rules? It doesn't matter if you're a ToR Vanguard shooting enemies with a blaster rifle. If you're the guy attracting and soaking the damage, you're the tank.
And despite all those abilities devs give out, if it's a trinity-based game you're going to need a tank. You might be able to solo at a certain rate, but you're going to (a) hit a wall where that's no longer possible and/or (b) advance faster in a group. Both of which provide sufficient encouragement to depend on others.
As for "glorified chat room", you might recall the time when all early MMORPGs were being called that (not just guilds; the entire game.) At least until they became more game-like, which is where we're at now.
I do think it's possible to have a grouping-only MMORPG, but it has to be paired with enormous grouping conveniences (more like TF2 or LoL where grouping is simply how you play the game, and joining a group is so completely effortless (and prompt) that it's not even thought of as "joining a group".)
Until we see that style of gameplay emerge however, allowing solo progress will always improve a game more than it detracts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just kill off the trinity and be done with it. people keep saying they want MMO's that push the envelope, well using the Tinity doesn't help in that respect.
That I agree with. So I can see the spectrum as a 5-point one;
Raising Health (Healer) > Lowering Health (DPS) > Stasis (tank) > Diverting Attention (CC) > Changing Values (Buff/Debuff)
~Would be interesting to see a 5-class game where they all can do a bare-minimum of each, but specialize in one... but can anyone else figure if an angle is still missing from this lineup?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Well, if you're going to have whole classes who mostly only do things like 'stand there and get hit' or 'make healthbars go up', why not have specialties like informational? Somebody who can supply people with information they otherwise wouldn't know.
You're saying that's not basically what tanks and healers do currently? I didn't say they couldn't do sparse attacks between fits of doing their jobs, again, like it is currently.
As for information laundering, I don't think that really suits all that much of a purpose in the end, especially seeing as you'd have to go into the design with the full purpose of omitting major conventions like healthbars and status icons. Even then, a group can survive just as well without one.
Plus, wikis exist, and can give people preemptive info on just about any creature in game. They would have to change weaknesses on the fly or something, and even then, I doubt any developer is smart enough to *not* telegraph the direction of said changes in particle effects. They only seem to learn through hindsight these days.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I still loved GW1 Mesmers. Using the opponents strengths against them is a very interesting concept.
The problem with buffers is that the buffs are either useless or mandatory or situational. There is no balanced. Games where you could cast buffs on others that lasted a long time eventually had players maintain 2 accounts so that their dps could be buffed (DAOC, SWG).
In EQ buff/debuff classes were incredibly strong as to be mandatory for hard content.
So then MMOs restricted buff duration or to party or made them weaker in general. WoW buffs as a whole are very weak in comparison to some of the older buffs. Due to the tightly tuned nature of raids they were very useful though.
The problem with the trinity is required classes. It puts a large divide on users being able to party up...systems that allow you to have more freedom in what you are doing get boring less quickly as well. Adding more roles to the trinity just divides the population up more...unless....
Get rid of the trinity CLASS system.....I want a trinity (or trinity+) ROLE system. There is a distinct difference.
It also puts a lot of stock in people willing to listen and act on your information. Which can sometimes be much harder then performing your own role well.
And Voice Communication would be at a premium.
Oh no, I agree, that's basically what they do. I've watched serious WoW raids more than once, gah, a screen full of health bars seems like playing Progress Quest with QTEs.
Obviously it'd require random monsters for information to have any value, yes. Though you could have it so ONLY the certain class could see the changes in particle effects. There is of course the problem that you'd have to get people to listen to you, of course... though I once came up with a design where every class sees the world differently and each has a role based on controlling what they see, rather than what the other people see, everybody relying on other people to do their jobs and deal with the threat they can see.
other then the tank, sounds like what you are describing already exists in GW2 actually. They have regen aoe buffs, ranged attacks that can pick off runners, and buffers that do damage. It's all in how you spec your toon and which weapons you use. but it most importantly doesn't limit gameplay with groups by forcing people to have specific classes to use per encounter. That's why I'm so excited about it, I can be an engineer debuffer/regen healer and have a great time.
If the choice is between listening to you or dying, I think at least SOME people could be trained to listen. Some.
Also, you could have in-game methods of communicating the information. Whether it's calling targets (Attacking Midboss's left hand), or even an idea I came up with while I showered... how about a class that can 'paint' different colored auras on the world?
Weak spot on an enemy? Paint it green. Enemy is switching over to fire mode, so does extra fire damage and is weak to ice? Paint their head red. They've set a trap on a ground? Paint it orange. Their aura is connected to a series of various crystals in a cave that is feeding the boss more life? Paint them purple so people know which specific ones to destroy (That'd be FASTER than going by voice, really 'No, the crystal to the... left a little more... no up... no back right... dammit, the one NEXT to it. Next to it the other direction! GODDAMIT, LEFT IS THE OPPOSITE OF RIGHT)
Etc etc.
I mean, that's pretty simplistic, but I came u pwith it in 15 minutes while doing important showery... things. Give me a break.
It wouldn't be hard to do systems like that, where actually learning AND divulging information are game mechanisms, rather than something you do because you have vent.
It'd be a pretty challenging class, really, it'd be how fast can you determine what is the most important information to divulge, and then distribute it swiftly and efficiently. You'd have to design a game so there's a lot of important things TO know, as opposed to your average MMORPG 'Oh, he's a badguy and he hits things', but it's possible with a design shift.
The point should be to have fun roles - not to try and make a boring role fun to play.
I wouldn't want to play a game which forces players into playing something they do not like but the group needs. Healers are hard to find as it is. A class like bard, which is often a "buff-bot" is extremely boring to play and majority will agree. Still if it has a dramatic effect on the group's survival groups are going to want one. But very few will play one. Then again, if it doesn't really add to the group's effectiveness, you wont find 'em in any groups.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The problem is that if you require too many roles, it takes a long time to find group. Even with 3 roles, it can take up to 10 min on LFD in WOW, which has a ton of players.
Do people really want to wait 30 min to get a group? I don't.
I agree, that was the point of the thread. What can be done to these roles to make them fun, what other roles can we think of that are fun .. but it's digressed into opinion flinging about whether the trinity is good or not
plenty of other threads about that.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already