MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.
in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.
in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.
for example
grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50 fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.
I was about to come in here and rip you a new one, after reading that title. I was steaming mad, my page couldnt load fast enough. But after reading your post i agree. If you dont have to compete with each other in PVE in some way shape or form it really is rather pointless. Mindless instance dungon running isnt challeneging. I always look to FFXI as the gold standard in PVE content. There was a lot of PvP going on that didnt involve players actually fighting other players. Non the less it was still PvP.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.
in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.
in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.
for example
grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50 fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.
You are seriously wrong,look at all the pure pvp games released resently non of those has any big population.
And also take a look at games that sooner or later force people to pvp,people leav the game permanently when this happens.
Only few percent of mmo players wants pvp in the games most of us avoid pvp games.
All pvp focused games up to date has failed.
Pvp'ers are very loud on forums, that is reason why there is so much pvp in many games.
Sooner or later gamebuilders will even not include any pvp in the games,just becous they want to sell their product to the masses not only the few % that wants pvp.
MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.
in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.
in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.
for example
grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50 fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.
I was about to come in here and rip you a new one, after reading that title. I was steaming mad, my page couldnt load fast enough. But after reading your post i agree. If you dont have to compete with each other in PVE in some way shape or form it really is rather pointless. Mindless instance dungon running isnt challeneging. I always look to FFXI as the gold standard in PVE content. There was a lot of PvP going on that didnt involve players actually fighting other players. Non the less it was still PvP.
That's how EQ (was?). Spawn camping, having guildies man the spawn 24/7 until a pop, then all guildies received a quick call or page ~ SPAWN UP GET IN GAME.
Top guilds were always competing for top spawns, often for part of complicated Epic Quests.
That said, PvP being a direct "major" deal doesn't hold true with me. It's fun, it's enjoyable to play on a PvP server while leveling, but I started RPGs when they were text-based and SP only. The PvP as a fundamental part of a MMORPG seems silly to me. MHO.
To a point, you are right, but the point is a pretty insubstantial one. It depends on how well the PvE and PvP are implemented - my personal opinion is that only Eve Online has got PvP to the point where it could be classed as the core of the game. PvP in almost every other game is just an inconsequential "insta-recovery" from death with no damage taken and nothing looted or lost. I don't even class that as PvP, I'm afraid.
It's absurd. I am a PvE player. I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period. I do not compete with any other players, period. As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.
When you invoke an obvious fallacy in the subject line of your premise, I'm not real confident that your argument will be very convincing.
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
Of course not all PVP players are like this. I think I've met almost 3 who weren't. IIRC, they were run off by some jerk eventually, using exploits. But seriously, to each their own and all, but pvp isn't anywhere near the core of an MMO. Sowwy.
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.
As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.
Yes there are some bad apples. But lets not forget on the non pvp servers you had people kill stealing mobs, killing raid triggers and other actions FAR worse than those that were on Rallos Zek because they hid behind the veil of not being able to be held accountable for their actions. The people who do that on PVE servers are the same type who would do those actions on pvp servers but who lack the guts to step out behind their veil of protection...
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.
As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.
I like how you yell at me for being arrogant, claiming I said they all were like that; nevermind my own post specifically notes that not all are like that. There are a couple like you.
But I'm sorry; you are a dying breed in the 'modern' game. Despite your assault on me, your pvp ethic was the one that attracted me to at least trying a little pvp. It was everyone else that turned me off of it. Not 'a few bad apples'. More like one decent apple for every 6 bushels of rotten detritus.
The OP isnt wrong when you view competitive pve in a lot of mmo's concerning both economy pricing of pve materials, as well as competitions for spawns in non instanced games, and even spawnrates in games that have a lot of instancing besides the open world areas. Although this type of "pvp" if you will, does not deal with player vs. player combat at all. You could argue that Auction house competition as well as rare spawn camping, is very competitive and therefor is a form of pvp. Which I asume is what the OP is arguing.
However with GW2 cooperative pve is taken to entire new levels, and I believe we will see much more of this type of pve in the future if GW2 is a success.
Some of the reasoning is incorrect indeed, but OP has a point. After having played Lineage II for years, I've seen some weird stuff happen there when numerous players of the same level are in one area. The start of the Luna (EU) server was the best example I think. 100's of players (level 1-10 range) doing starter quests and a lot getting frustrated by not being able to get the monsters they need, and thus start to kill other players instead. Also, the release of the Goddess of Destruction showed something similar with tne new 85+ area's. Again numerous players there and too few monsters to be killed, so a couple of players got impatient and started to PvP.
Is it a necessary condition to have PvE as a core? Is it a desirable condition?
Not even sure ya'll gots enough evidence to make a claim that mmo's are anthropocentric, at their core.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.
As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.
I like how you yell at me for being arrogant, claiming I said they all were like that; nevermind my own post specifically notes that not all are like that. There are a couple like you.
But I'm sorry; you are a dying breed in the 'modern' game. Despite your assault on me, your pvp ethic was the one that attracted me to at least trying a little pvp. It was everyone else that turned me off of it. Not 'a few bad apples'. More like one decent apple for every 6 bushels of rotten detritus.
If you make a point of saying that all but 3 of the millions of people who PvP behave in a certain way, it is a bit disingenuous to then try to claim that you didn't say, "all," were like that.
For what its worth I am primarily a PvEer who dabbles in PvP, and by far the rudest, "smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people," that I have met in games have been other PVEers.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.
As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.
I like how you yell at me for being arrogant, claiming I said they all were like that; nevermind my own post specifically notes that not all are like that. There are a couple like you.
But I'm sorry; you are a dying breed in the 'modern' game. Despite your assault on me, your pvp ethic was the one that attracted me to at least trying a little pvp. It was everyone else that turned me off of it. Not 'a few bad apples'. More like one decent apple for every 6 bushels of rotten detritus.
If you make a point of saying that all but 3 of the millions of people who PvP behave in a certain way, it is a bit disingenuous to then try to claim that you didn't say, "all," were like that.
He actually said 'by and large', which means mostly or generally (as in 'not all'). It's you that obviously took that to mean otherwise, personalise it, and over react.
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.
As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.
I like how you yell at me for being arrogant, claiming I said they all were like that; nevermind my own post specifically notes that not all are like that. There are a couple like you.
But I'm sorry; you are a dying breed in the 'modern' game. Despite your assault on me, your pvp ethic was the one that attracted me to at least trying a little pvp. It was everyone else that turned me off of it. Not 'a few bad apples'. More like one decent apple for every 6 bushels of rotten detritus.
If you make a point of saying that all but 3 of the millions of people who PvP behave in a certain way, it is a bit disingenuous to then try to claim that you didn't say, "all," were like that.
He actually said 'by and large', which means mostly or generally (as in 'not all'). It's you that obviously took that to mean otherwise.
And he is right.
My apologies, but when someone engages in generalization of that sort, and makes a point of portraying the 'good' members of the group as being a tiny minority is engaging in the demonization of a sub-group
After all he could not be in a position to make an accurate general comment about the PvP player base as a whole unless he had interacted with a very large percentage of it. He then described only encountering 3 'good' PvPers. Now if he had stated up front that he had not interacted with enough PvPers to make an informed decision about PvPers as a whole, this would be a different matter. Instead he portrayed as fact a description of the MMO PvP community as a whole. This directly implies experience with the community as a whole. For him to claim experience of the PvP community as a whole (remember that he did nto say, "those few PvPers with whom I personally have interacted are smarmy, etc.") and then claim that only 3 PvPers do not fit his negative description matches the point made in my previous post.
I disagree about the depiction of the MMORPG PvP community as a whole. You are of course entitled to your opinion on the matter.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.
As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.
I like how you yell at me for being arrogant, claiming I said they all were like that; nevermind my own post specifically notes that not all are like that. There are a couple like you.
But I'm sorry; you are a dying breed in the 'modern' game. Despite your assault on me, your pvp ethic was the one that attracted me to at least trying a little pvp. It was everyone else that turned me off of it. Not 'a few bad apples'. More like one decent apple for every 6 bushels of rotten detritus.
If you make a point of saying that all but 3 of the millions of people who PvP behave in a certain way, it is a bit disingenuous to then try to claim that you didn't say, "all," were like that.
He actually said 'by and large', which means mostly or generally (as in 'not all'). It's you that obviously took that to mean otherwise.
And he is right.
My apologies, but when someone engages in generalization of that sort, and makes a point of portraying the 'good' members of the group as being a tiny minority is engaging in the demonization of a sub-group
After all he could not be in a position to make an accurate general comment about the PvP player base as a whole unless he had interacted with a very large percentage of it. He then described only encountering 3 'good' PvPers. Now if he had stated up front that he had not interacted with enough PvPers to make an informed decision about PvPers as a whole, this would be a different matter. Instead he portrayed as fact a description of the MMO PvP community as a whole. This directly implies experience with the community as a whole. For him to claim experience of the PvP community as a whole (remember that he did nto say, "those few PvPers with whom I personally have interacted are smarmy, etc.") and then claim that only 3 PvPers do not fit his negative description matches the point made in my previous post.
I disagree about the depiction of the MMORPG PvP community as a whole. You are of course entitled to your opinion on the matter.
I actually agree though that decent folks, as you seem to be, seem to be in the minority culture wise these days.
It's a shame.
Maybe it was different on Rallos (I played Vallon Zek myself, and have to say it had a pretty big asshat community, even if they did not define the community), but I think the modern PvP culture has become worse.
I mean... back in the day 'ganking' was considered a cheap skilless kill, an insult, now it is a badge worn with honour. Individuals aside, there has been a community shift in attitudes for sure.
Is it a necessary condition to have PvE as a core? Is it a desirable condition?
Not even sure ya'll gots enough evidence to make a claim that mmo's are anthropocentric, at their core.
Stop forcing me to thnk about stuff, Icewhite.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by IcewhiteOriginally posted by TwoThreeFourIs it a necessary condition to have PvE as a core? Is it a desirable condition?
Not even sure ya'll gots enough evidence to make a claim that mmo's are anthropocentric, at their core.Stop forcing me to thnk about stuff, Icewhite.
What does Anthropocentrism* have to do with PvP or PvE being the core feature of an MMORPG? Anthropocentrism applies to every video game that exists...they are made by humans, for humans. They wouldn't even exist if humans didn't exist.
The statement is true - Anthropocentrism applies to MMORPG...but that doesn't tell you whether MMORPG depend on competition between players more than they depend on cooperation. It doesn't explain whether or not the term PvP applies to combat only, or whether it applies to other forms of competition.
* I went and looked this up. It's the idea that humans and the central, most important animal species. In regards to video games and MMORPG in particular, humans are the only animal species that matter. Dolphins don't play video games, neither do dogs. Humans are it. Any species that exists inside a video game are created by humans, using human concepts and ideas.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's absurd. I am a PvE player. I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period. I do not compete with any other players, period. As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.
Then your not playing mmo's. Even the ut-most cookie cutter wow clone has you competing with other players in PVE in some way shape or form.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I actually agree though that decent folks, as you seem to be, seem to be in the minority culture wise these days.
It's a shame.
Maybe it was different on Rallos (I played Vallon Zek myself, and have to say it had a pretty big asshat community, even if they did not define the community), but I think the modern PvP culture has become worse.
I mean... back in the day 'ganking' was considered a cheap skilless kill, an insult, now it is a badge worn with honour. Individuals aside, there has been a community shift in attitudes for sure.
I freely admit that I may have just been very very lucky in my experience with PvPers. As an example, in one game I actually had opponents PM me after defeating me pretty soundly (I got spanked hard really) to explain, without gloating, what I had done wrong, and changes I might want to make to my build if I wanted to be truly competitive. A real PvPer wants a good fight, and knows that he is more likely to get it from an informed opponent. Behavior like this was more the rule than the exception in CO before it went FtP.
The optimist in me hopes that sportsmanship is not dead
And yeah, ganking was seen as the cheap kill.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I actually agree though that decent folks, as you seem to be, seem to be in the minority culture wise these days.
It's a shame.
Maybe it was different on Rallos (I played Vallon Zek myself, and have to say it had a pretty big asshat community, even if they did not define the community), but I think the modern PvP culture has become worse.
I mean... back in the day 'ganking' was considered a cheap skilless kill, an insult, now it is a badge worn with honour. Individuals aside, there has been a community shift in attitudes for sure.
I freely admit that I may have just been very very lucky in my experience with PvPers. As an example, in one game I actually had opponents PM me after defeating me pretty soundly (I got spanked hard really) to explain, without gloating, what I had done wrong, and changes I might want to make to my build if I wanted to be truly competitive. A real PvPer wants a good fight, and knows that he is more likely to get it from an informed opponent. Behavior like this was more the rule than the exception in CO before it went FtP.
The optimist in me hopes that sportsmanship is not dead
And yeah, ganking was seen as the cheap kill.
Some PvPers believe ganking IS PvP and it is not.
PvP does not have to be in the MMO equation. Being totally immersed in your environment is.
Comments
I was about to come in here and rip you a new one, after reading that title. I was steaming mad, my page couldnt load fast enough. But after reading your post i agree. If you dont have to compete with each other in PVE in some way shape or form it really is rather pointless. Mindless instance dungon running isnt challeneging. I always look to FFXI as the gold standard in PVE content. There was a lot of PvP going on that didnt involve players actually fighting other players. Non the less it was still PvP.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
You are seriously wrong,look at all the pure pvp games released resently non of those has any big population.
And also take a look at games that sooner or later force people to pvp,people leav the game permanently when this happens.
Only few percent of mmo players wants pvp in the games most of us avoid pvp games.
All pvp focused games up to date has failed.
Pvp'ers are very loud on forums, that is reason why there is so much pvp in many games.
Sooner or later gamebuilders will even not include any pvp in the games,just becous they want to sell their product to the masses not only the few % that wants pvp.
That's how EQ (was?). Spawn camping, having guildies man the spawn 24/7 until a pop, then all guildies received a quick call or page ~ SPAWN UP GET IN GAME.
Top guilds were always competing for top spawns, often for part of complicated Epic Quests.
That said, PvP being a direct "major" deal doesn't hold true with me. It's fun, it's enjoyable to play on a PvP server while leveling, but I started RPGs when they were text-based and SP only. The PvP as a fundamental part of a MMORPG seems silly to me. MHO.
To a point, you are right, but the point is a pretty insubstantial one. It depends on how well the PvE and PvP are implemented - my personal opinion is that only Eve Online has got PvP to the point where it could be classed as the core of the game. PvP in almost every other game is just an inconsequential "insta-recovery" from death with no damage taken and nothing looted or lost. I don't even class that as PvP, I'm afraid.
It's absurd. I am a PvE player. I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period. I do not compete with any other players, period. As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
When you invoke an obvious fallacy in the subject line of your premise, I'm not real confident that your argument will be very convincing.
Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time. The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time.
Of course not all PVP players are like this. I think I've met almost 3 who weren't. IIRC, they were run off by some jerk eventually, using exploits. But seriously, to each their own and all, but pvp isn't anywhere near the core of an MMO. Sowwy.
So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.
As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.
Yes there are some bad apples. But lets not forget on the non pvp servers you had people kill stealing mobs, killing raid triggers and other actions FAR worse than those that were on Rallos Zek because they hid behind the veil of not being able to be held accountable for their actions. The people who do that on PVE servers are the same type who would do those actions on pvp servers but who lack the guts to step out behind their veil of protection...
No.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/269822/page/1
The atmosphere and environment is the core of any REAL mmorpg.
I like how you yell at me for being arrogant, claiming I said they all were like that; nevermind my own post specifically notes that not all are like that. There are a couple like you.
But I'm sorry; you are a dying breed in the 'modern' game. Despite your assault on me, your pvp ethic was the one that attracted me to at least trying a little pvp. It was everyone else that turned me off of it. Not 'a few bad apples'. More like one decent apple for every 6 bushels of rotten detritus.
The OP isnt wrong when you view competitive pve in a lot of mmo's concerning both economy pricing of pve materials, as well as competitions for spawns in non instanced games, and even spawnrates in games that have a lot of instancing besides the open world areas. Although this type of "pvp" if you will, does not deal with player vs. player combat at all. You could argue that Auction house competition as well as rare spawn camping, is very competitive and therefor is a form of pvp. Which I asume is what the OP is arguing.
However with GW2 cooperative pve is taken to entire new levels, and I believe we will see much more of this type of pve in the future if GW2 is a success.
Some of the reasoning is incorrect indeed, but OP has a point. After having played Lineage II for years, I've seen some weird stuff happen there when numerous players of the same level are in one area. The start of the Luna (EU) server was the best example I think. 100's of players (level 1-10 range) doing starter quests and a lot getting frustrated by not being able to get the monsters they need, and thus start to kill other players instead. Also, the release of the Goddess of Destruction showed something similar with tne new 85+ area's. Again numerous players there and too few monsters to be killed, so a couple of players got impatient and started to PvP.
Is it a necessary condition to have PvE as a core? Is it a desirable condition?
Not even sure ya'll gots enough evidence to make a claim that mmo's are anthropocentric, at their core.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If you make a point of saying that all but 3 of the millions of people who PvP behave in a certain way, it is a bit disingenuous to then try to claim that you didn't say, "all," were like that.
For what its worth I am primarily a PvEer who dabbles in PvP, and by far the rudest, "smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people," that I have met in games have been other PVEers.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
He actually said 'by and large', which means mostly or generally (as in 'not all'). It's you that obviously took that to mean otherwise, personalise it, and over react.
And he is right.
My apologies, but when someone engages in generalization of that sort, and makes a point of portraying the 'good' members of the group as being a tiny minority is engaging in the demonization of a sub-group
After all he could not be in a position to make an accurate general comment about the PvP player base as a whole unless he had interacted with a very large percentage of it. He then described only encountering 3 'good' PvPers. Now if he had stated up front that he had not interacted with enough PvPers to make an informed decision about PvPers as a whole, this would be a different matter. Instead he portrayed as fact a description of the MMO PvP community as a whole. This directly implies experience with the community as a whole. For him to claim experience of the PvP community as a whole (remember that he did nto say, "those few PvPers with whom I personally have interacted are smarmy, etc.") and then claim that only 3 PvPers do not fit his negative description matches the point made in my previous post.
I disagree about the depiction of the MMORPG PvP community as a whole. You are of course entitled to your opinion on the matter.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I actually agree though that decent folks, as you seem to be, seem to be in the minority culture wise these days.
It's a shame.
Maybe it was different on Rallos (I played Vallon Zek myself, and have to say it had a pretty big asshat community, even if they did not define the community), but I think the modern PvP culture has become worse.
I mean... back in the day 'ganking' was considered a cheap skilless kill, an insult, now it is a badge worn with honour. Individuals aside, there has been a community shift in attitudes for sure.
Stop forcing me to thnk about stuff, Icewhite.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Stop forcing me to thnk about stuff, Icewhite.
What does Anthropocentrism* have to do with PvP or PvE being the core feature of an MMORPG? Anthropocentrism applies to every video game that exists...they are made by humans, for humans. They wouldn't even exist if humans didn't exist.
The statement is true - Anthropocentrism applies to MMORPG...but that doesn't tell you whether MMORPG depend on competition between players more than they depend on cooperation. It doesn't explain whether or not the term PvP applies to combat only, or whether it applies to other forms of competition.
* I went and looked this up. It's the idea that humans and the central, most important animal species. In regards to video games and MMORPG in particular, humans are the only animal species that matter. Dolphins don't play video games, neither do dogs. Humans are it. Any species that exists inside a video game are created by humans, using human concepts and ideas.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Then your not playing mmo's. Even the ut-most cookie cutter wow clone has you competing with other players in PVE in some way shape or form.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Op is wrong...just wrong.
leaving it at that.
I freely admit that I may have just been very very lucky in my experience with PvPers. As an example, in one game I actually had opponents PM me after defeating me pretty soundly (I got spanked hard really) to explain, without gloating, what I had done wrong, and changes I might want to make to my build if I wanted to be truly competitive. A real PvPer wants a good fight, and knows that he is more likely to get it from an informed opponent. Behavior like this was more the rule than the exception in CO before it went FtP.
The optimist in me hopes that sportsmanship is not dead
And yeah, ganking was seen as the cheap kill.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Some PvPers believe ganking IS PvP and it is not.
PvP does not have to be in the MMO equation. Being totally immersed in your environment is.
Oh heck no are you serious op ? PvP is the minority and always will be.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/