latency argument against action combat?

bishbosh

so apparently we can have action combat in mmorpgs according to most AAA devs because of latency. most games have US, ASIAN and EUROPE servers that provide good latencies to everyone in those regions. that pretty much covers everyone in the world who plays mmorpgs except for australia but we only have 20 mil peeps here and devs dont care about us anyway. i especially dont know TES online is doing tab target when all the other games have been 1st person aiming games.... TERA executed action combat fine as long as your ping is <100ish as it should be unless you live in australia which no one cares about.

note: im not talking gw2 action combat. im talking about the real thing, pretty much 1st/3rd person shooter with swords and magic. so dont be all like gw2 is doing it.

Terronte

Hmm...I'm under the impression it's really difficult to pull off. That's why FPS games limit the number of players per map?

FredomSekerZ

I believe it's because of the engine, but i'm not the most well versed to talk about it. Doesn't TERA use the Unreal engine? But, i myself don't get it. Never played PS1, but that game is a persistant FPS game from 2003. But, i don't know how well it runs.

fenistil

The more action / twitch combat is the more latency is important.

 

Just ask any ol' Quake player.    latency > everything

 

Playing through big distances with big latencies can be pain in the ass and gimp you even in non-action games.

In heavy twitch-based games latency is very important.  Also packet loss is VERY important.  Over long distances it have much more chance of happening and it can hurt as much as high latency, resulting in 'big tearing or unability of play for a while , when packet loss spike come'.

 

In Lotro for example which is obviusly NOT actiony game, when servers were in EU still.  I was getting 40 ms and 0% packet loss. Spikes were not happening.

When they transfered to US - I got ~ 120-140 ms latency and 1-3% packet loss.  Spikes in latency especially in raids or group pvp up to 200-250 ms and 5% + packet loss.  With that it was unplayable.

 

Now imagine that in action twitch game.

 

Actiony game absolutely NEED servers in same region, inluding server in oceania for Aussies, NZ and neighbouring vountries or it is gonna be miserable experience for some.

Terronte

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

I believe it's because of the engine, but i'm not the most well versed to talk about it. Doesn't TERA use the Unreal engine? But, i myself don't get it. Never played PS1, but that game is a persistant FPS game from 2003. But, i don't know how well it runs.

I cant get my googlez working to find me info. I did find that planetside had a modified version of FPS. Basically the FAQ said that while you are moving and shooting you have a cone of fire. The only time you'd have more accurate firing was if you were stationary and crouched. Seems like they are limiting the information needing to be transmited.

Looking at Arma II or IIi they'd be limited to 300 players. Planetside 2 is 2000 players per server..or some such. Limit that per zone, etc.

Not sure if Tera has a zone limit, i know their version of rifts is a total lagfest and makes the game near unplayable.

KenFisher

Anyone remember the term LPB... is that even used today?

 

There's 3 issues with FPS aimed combat.

 

UDPs

Modern MMOs tend to use TCP streams for connections.  TCP streams are guaranteed delivery and they have a tendency to build up in a buffer and then burst.  Even a low ping connection can have latency problems with the buffers are filling up.

The fix is UDP packets, which don't usually sit in buffers.  But UDP is a pain for people who have NAT routers (home network single IP shared over many devices) because UDPs don't traverse NAT cleanly without manual port forwarding or a NAT router that is smart enough to auto-forward (only a few are).

 

Network Latency and Client - Server communications

Consider time on the server to be the authority for all in-game physics like getting shot.  Your local machine shows you where you will be in +100 milliseconds because it takes that long for the info to get to the server and be updated.  Your local machine shows everyone else where they were -100 milliseconds.  Where you shot isn't where the other guy is at that very moment.  Lower ping means more accurate shots.  With TCP (as above) even a low ping isn't always great because buffers might hold a half-seond's worth of data adding unavoidable latency.

 

Server CPU

Real FPS combat uses bullet physics and collision.  If there's 50 players on screen and 200 bullets flying at the moment, the server tracks 250 objects, not just the 50.  More work means more practical limit on the maximum number of players in a given area.  The solution is more CPU and greater optimization.

 

I agree that long hop countries like Australia will have issues regardless.  Broadband via satellite used to have that issue too.

Quirhid

Originally posted by bishbosh

so apparently we can have action combat in mmorpgs according to most AAA devs because of latency. most games have US, ASIAN and EUROPE servers that provide good latencies to everyone in those regions. that pretty much covers everyone in the world who plays mmorpgs except for australia but we only have 20 mil peeps here and devs dont care about us anyway. i especially dont know TES online is doing tab target when all the other games have been 1st person aiming games.... TERA executed action combat fine as long as your ping is <100ish as it should be unless you live in australia which no one cares about.

note: im not talking gw2 action combat. im talking about the real thing, pretty much 1st/3rd person shooter with swords and magic. so dont be all like gw2 is doing it.

You are right, Arenanet has had to make some sacfirices to make WvWvW possible. I would like a more actiony combat myself.

Quirhid

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

I find latency isn't that bad (at least not for me) with action combat.  However, I find the novelty for action combat wears off fast and I find the twitch play tiresome, repettive, and taking away from the social aspect of an MMORPG (i.e., because if you're spamming keys, you have no time to type text to interact with others).

We use VOIP programs nowadays.