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My Opinion: Why WWIIOL is dead.
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But a) we'll never know how that population would have behaved over time without 1.27
And b) shifting back to town supply isn't technically possible as far as we know
SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL
a) Exactly, as we'll never know you CAN'T say for a fact it was unsustanable, it's just not true so can't be used as a dismissive argument. But we did know the impact AO's were having at the time. That was their chance to back out and hold the current population and try something else.
Well it's all in theory as they don't have any coders anyway, let alone enough to do major changes like any listed. So it's just going through the thought process, not what can actually be done.
Actually come to think of it, they might be able to fake it by putting something like a division in every city and lock them down, then just give them supply. Fake city supply. Ah, who knows.
It might be interesting to see what would happen if they raised the AO levels to 50. I'd guess that's a relatively simple database change
SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL
In all honesty, what would be wrong letting players cap any frontline town and eliminating AO's?
Avoiding the fight keeps being mentioned, but with EWS and cap timers how is that so?
EWS goes off, you check the town and scout it out.
If the players slack and are slow to respond then maybe you get camped.
Moles can no longer be effective because of the longer cap timers.
The AO/Brigade spawning/TOE system is a complicated mess that doesn't support the current game population, like David stated in an earlier post.
CRS mentioned
-newer players not being able to find action and not sticking with the game as a main reason for the changes.
Possible Fixes -Instant action buttons, less complicated UI, better tutorial.
-Overpop TZ3 land grabs were another reason
Possible Fixes -Keep spawn delay but max it out 1 min for Overpop, Higher Cap timers for Overpop, lower for Underpop.
What can they do now to get the players they lost back, while also making the game more appealing to the new players?
While I still enjoy the game at times and support it financially, CRS needs to admit they made a mistake as is evident by the current state of the game and its skeleton staff.
In all honesty, I know they can't change anything now w/o a coder but I think they're afraid if they make a drastic change they could lose the current playerbase and their salaries.
CRS is stuck between a rock and a hard place and is struggling to stay alive.
The conversation going on in this thread has improved massively, I have to point out. I personally, wouldnt mind seeing all front-line towns capturable, but keep the AOs in so HC can conduct their business. The best of both worlds I would think. This thought, of course, is a generalization of ideas, that no doubt would include a more complex set of rules, I would imagine.
I think this would take the pressure off the HC a bit while giving squads a chance to do their own thing. I can see where this could also go wrong in some ways, but it would be an interesting experiment IMO. The population seems to be going back up slowly, so this could be possible in the future, I would think. Then again...what do I know
!S
Hey Wrath, noone knows for sure about anything.
We can just give our opinions.
I also agree that the conversation in this thread points to a group of players that really love the game.
We all know CRS reads these forums.
Perhaps they start soon/are able to make some suttle changes to game mechanics.
One thing I always hate reading is when DOC states that certain things are impossible to do because of the code.
Well he's not a coder so why does he keep saying it?
Swallow your pride, admit the companies past errors & start over.
People are always willing to give others a second chance.
And P.S.- It's unfortunate that HC gets burned out in a game, but it is true.
Needing breaks, rage quitting and 24-7 map coverage while trying to appease the playerbase is unfair.
OKW and AHC were fine when they used to plan attacks with Organized OPs & RDP decisions.
They gave players a reason to log in w/o forcing them to do something they didn't want to do.
I used to love looking around the map for ews ,and trying to guess where they would hit next.
That was part of the game that was exciting to me. Yeah sometimes you would respond too late and end up camped, but every once in a while we would break a camp too, which to me was one of the most rewarding things about the game IMO.
The culture is so different now though. Personally, I think the cap timers are waaaay too long, but i'm a recovering mole, so I'm supposed to think that:P
EDIT: Yes pitt, I totally agree with the above post mate. I'm slow on the type today(long night) so please excuse my post delay lol
A few years back I posted a idea about how the rats could alter AO's and keep HC while still allowing for squad freedom to a limited extent. Thought it was pretty good back but ill let you guys decide.
1. Make the AO cover a section of the front say 4-8 towns (this could be adjusted for fine tuneing) the number of AO's would still be limited by player population.Current prep time for defenders would have to be dropped of coarse but EWS would remain so the coverage of the front in that area would fall on the squads to check out EWS no 10-15 min timer before CPs would be able to be capped.
2. Allow HC to keep the strategic level with the power to place the AO and give a genral direction to the player base on what there goals are on this strategic level. AKA orders are to break through the enemy front someplace within the given AO coverage.
3. Allow Squads/lonewolfs to handle all tactical level planning. This means they get the freedom to attack any town within that AO. This allows them the freedom to do ops when they choose and how they choose but not be willy nilly all over the map as there attacks would be confined to the area of towns disegnated by HC.
4. Move back to town supply. This allows squads to prep for there ops with overstocks for attacks and resupply for defense and prevents HC from haveing to much control over the tactical level of play.
Im sure there is more im forgeting its been a while and back then the post I put up on PS was like a page or two long. Anyway squads get there freedom on a tactical level and HC gets to keep the stratigic level planning.
I like it> I would keep the TOEs though, and adjust them with more realistic supply lines/rate and maybe some sort of rear support mixed units that countered supply interdiction... I dont know lol, just throwin that out there :P I used to love the resupply/oversupply element too..I think it need's revisited. ....and.... add some trains to roam all that track while we're at it. LOL
Attack orders are only part of the problem, but since they really don't have any coding capabilities anymore they should try the 50 AO thing just to see how much improvement there is.
They should also try differentiating the brigades more. It's just changing the values in a database right? Put all the armored vehicles in to the armor brigades with a minimum of riflemen and engineers, then shift everything else to the infantry brigades. With the important armor brigs hanging back there may be less tank spam in every battle, more movement outside of the flashing box and the potential for larger tank columns. If it doesn't work out then no big deal, just change them back.
My point is that CRS needs to be doing something, anything else besides pouting and asking for money. They got 143 people paying $30 a month now and they can't even get game stats working.
I still don't see how going back to a simpler system is a technical impossibility, especially when it obviously hasn't been too difficult for the company to take WW2online's code and modify it in to a completely different game.
Yeah, that's lots of the reason I liked the old spawning from FB's although I can understand the problems going that route with the current playerbase. The 2KM+ distance between FBs and city gave you a ton of options to break the flow of troops attacking. Just as oversupply or manual resupply did. Nothing like having an enemy failed attack meaning a resupply mission that you could tow some ATGs out to break, real fun OPs. Those battles out in the middle of nowhere rocked heh. That was variety. The more you add game mechanics to do the work instead with teleporting supplies or spawns around, the more that type of tactical options were removed and the more repetitive the gameplay became (just your standard city attacks).
Even gave the air guys some real meaningful work taking out those supply runs.
Pittpete, that was the million dollar question with EWS and caused much debate in the playschool forums. I guess it depended on where you were. I know in 3CD checking the EWS was something we always did on our front, and if we didn't, we didn't cry if it got taken (our fault). But some still cried foul, somehow they shouldn't have to spend any time checking alarms but still not be punished for not doing so (have your cake and eat it to). And as Wrath mentioned those could turn out to be the best battles. A group holding the bunker while a heavy relief force spawned in a close by, but obvious city, so there was an enemy cutoff force also ready for that move. It was great stuff that used all the distance between the cities and was so free form.
The problems I have with many of the thoughtful, considered proposals around the central idea of tweaking AOs are that two fundamental aspects that are important to me aren't part of the proposals
a) Response time to an attack. This game can be really painful to play if you're unable to set a defence up before the suppression forces move into position. Removing EWS or adding the realistic fog of war would have to also include some kind of AI guard system or alert system or every attack will very quickly become a total camp, with suppression of of spawn points even more of a key tactic than it is now. A surprise attack leaves zero time for the defenders to push a defence perimeter out, to the detriment of the game. I don't see a way around this, short of having sufficient players doing mindless, uneventful patrol duty of every sector, every town, every hill, every crossroads. I can't see beyond that
b) If we have ToES; simulated movable supply, there has to be vision steering that. You don't have an army attacking wherever the troops want. It can't work with that kind of disconnect at the design level.
SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL
7/02/12 > 3/03/13
Sorry I just keep seeing this topic pop-up, didn't read all the replies, but if this game is so dead then why is it still talked about almost 8 months since this topic started? Just curious....
The official forums of this game are closed to non-subscribers and although they have always been heavily moderated, in recent months the company has made a policy of deleting/locking any thread that could be perceived as mildly critical.
So a bunch of former and current players talk about the game here instead.
Your argument is based on the concept that haveing to check EWS is a chore. Its not but to limit it my idea covers that point of view by limiting the AO to 4 to 8 towns, you would not be checking every town on the front only the towns that had ews present within the given AO.
As for your argument that camps would arise and the attacking team would be given to much of a advantage well thats the point EWS allows for balance on attack and defense. If as a side you ignore the warning signs or dont check ews then yes you could be camped but if you do check it is entirely possible to turn the tables on the attacker. The main point is by letting AO's act like a 10-15 min window for the defense to get setup like it is now your forceing every fight to be a frontal assault into a set defense.Thats boreing as heck sorry to say and gives way to much of a adavantage to the team on defense while at the same time stifleing the side on offense.
TOE's killed resupply and supply cuts. Im sure your going to say well those where boreing things to do just like checking EWS but what your missing here is that your removeing player options with the idea that everyone is like yourself. Player freedom is the point silky this is not the military ITS A GAME. We tried it your way for a long time now and lets be honest it sucks the player numbers reflect this concept why not change it to something that at least follows a diffrent path shall we.
Probably agree now - more than I used to even a few months ago - that the only way to get subs back is to open up the sandbox element again and get rid of AO's.
In the end while it wasn't perfect, it clearly held more allure for a lot of players and that is the bottom line here. They should at least announce that they'll go back to those libertarian principles (spit) and allow the playerbase to dictate the game even if it is to the detriment of 'new' subs, because right now there simply isn't any way they'll recover their numbers via the current game. None.
I would implore CRS to save the game by this method. Announce that you'll go back to it at the earliest opportunity once money allows, and I think a lot of old subs will come back if they think it'll help. At the moment you're asking people to come back to a game on the premise that it'll be fixed in a non-specific way that doesn't appeal to old players or new ones.
I'm not a hater and you can look back through my post history here and you'll see that I've consistently defended CRS against what I see as some pretty revisionist history from some players who are full of their own self-importance, but in the end you can only argue so long without acknowledging that there are clearly a bunch of players out there who want to play this game in their own way, and the current game doesn't allow them to do that.
Time to wake up and acknowledge that sometimes the customer really is right.
My view:
1) Change the AO system by giving more/ removing it so more towns can be attacked
2) Make EWS more detailed. Instead of just inf and armour ews we should have:
- Truck EWS (2km)
- Gun EWS (2km)
- Armour EWS (2.5km)
- Out of town Infantry EWS (400m)
- Inside town Infantry EWS (Defenders are notified when infantry have been detected within the town perimeter
3) Limit infantry placed FRU's to one a mission. Once one's made you cant make anymore and must truck a FRU in (will propose something in depth in the future)
Though this does take away from the 'fog of war' aspect it would mean that defenders would know what they're up against and what towns to go to (if they respond to the information). EWS should of course still be vague, light ews will be 1-6 units of that type so you dont know whether there's 6 tanks going to town or 1 tank.
Likewise, with EWS telling you whether there is actually infantry within a towns perimeter or not then you know if there is someone trying to mole a CP or if someone is just AFK in a bush out of town. Though people complain about moling when all towns are frontline the fact is that FRU's make moling so much easier as the mission leader can constantly be putting up new ones. The only reason moles don't happen as much as they potentially do is that FB's tend to get busted most of the time on attacks (which is another negative aspects as battles are not decided in big clashes but a few guys sneaking up to an FB and blowing it).
ah, the reverse psychology tactic talking much about something to create a buzz even if it's negative so it might atract curious type of gamers that now take notice of this game research more into it and eventually even try the game.
The main point is by letting AO's act like a 10-15 min window for the defense to get setup like it is now your forceing every fight to be a frontal assault into a set defense.Thats boreing as heck sorry to say and gives way to much of a adavantage to the team on defense while at the same time stifleing the side on offense.
This,this,this
Silky, I don't think anyone said to get rid of EWS.
EWS is definitely needed.
One way to stop moling is make it impossible for 1 person to cap on offense.
Whats wrong with making it easier to attack, isn't it the action a lot of newer players want?
Right now both sides setup before the AO is placed.
Honestly Reklaw, that was my intention early on but like Davis said.
The official forums are so heavily modded now, there is no discussions allowed unless it's fluff.
Used to be great conversations on game mechanics and things players wanted to see in game.
Now threads dissapear if a post is a tad negative or questions anything the Devs don't like.
I'd suggest not
SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL
Double tank EWS goes off and you scout out the area.
Right now if double tank EWS goes off do players not check it out?
I'm not committed to AOs per se but I think the right balance of freedom and management needs to be struck to deliver rewarding gameplay for both attacker and defender
SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL
Squads that I've belonged to do the same thing now.
Thing is with AO's once the initial attack and defense is over, that AO sticks and it becomes WWI Online.
Every battle doesn't have to be a long bang your head against the wall battle.
Attrit a brigade and HC rotates another fresh one in.
The large gameworld is wasted with AO's.
Players need the freedom to be able to create their own action when and where they want.
Large battle or small.
Long or short.
All this game keeps doing is limiting and taking things away from the players.
One thing I'd like to see with TOE's is Brigades in reserve.
This way if a large hole is opened, instead of a whole side losing morale because of a HC mistake or whatever, a Reserve(fire)brigade could be placed.
I think TOE's can stay but AO's need to go.
I agree with some of the flaws you've pointed out however I'd still say I'd like us stick to the design of mechanics we have now but just address the rotation which dilutes attrition and turns it into WWI OL
If rotation were fixed, and attrition re-instated, so many of the issues would be resolved; it was the lack of attrition that drofve squads away, not the spawning/bde system. It was the inability to pursue an AO and be successful that frustrated the playerbase, not the mechanic itself.
AO/ToES etc is a complete red herring as the object of hatred. It's lack of attrition that really hurt the playerbase - it was the effects of repeatedly throwing oneself at a target and despite winning the battle, being unable to walk away victorious because a tide of fresh supply trickled in. That was the killer; the mechanics through which that was acheived was secondary, even though it seemed the obvious cause.
Fix attrition, fix the game
SWG > Aces High > WWIIOL