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Is it fun? The hubris of bucking convention.
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You're only grinding gear because you NEED to, in order to PROGRESS. This isn't true in GW2.
Wha?
Im assuming you never actually played in a BWE yet right?
Lay your mind at ease you are not forced to do anything or even go anywhere you dont want to in order to advance, this game offers an unprecedented freedom of choices and ways to enjoy the game..
Playing GW2..
i find it hard to believe someone could think a grind was required to have fun. i tend to think WoW added the gear grind to end-game so there was still a sense of progression. it remains to be seen how much longevity a game like gw2 will have when that progression no longer exists at max level. i guess we'll find out in a few months.
Grind is required.... I forget the part of the brain primarily involved in accepting conditioning and overiding free will, but your has well and truly been manipulated by the sub-takers.
Astounding....
OP have a typical reaction from a 2000 to 2005 mmo player, well because simply put the mmo during those period are all about grind, they are so much into it that they kind of brainwashed the player to think it's an absolute necessity, just like trinity honestly. If you played mmo before this period like Uo you would know neither gear, neither level grind is needed or even wanted to achieve a sense of progression. What you definitely want though is a good and entertaining progression system that simulate your character life, grinding is just one tool. An over abused tool, but you could use an other tool i don't know, is you character wealthy for example? Well in Uo you had this kind of progression (buy a huge castle full of rare items, just to make my point, but obviously its more complex than just housing), i'm not sure you have this kind of progression in modern mmo, you have it but it is as if it had no interest from a game designer point of view, maybe because being rich in usual mmo = have the best gear, which is pretty restricted imo.
All MMOs have a grind of some sort. Some are more, some are less. Most aren't fun. Some, few, good MMOs hide their grind.
However, SW:TOR's death-knell was their hubris. Yes, I do know what that word means. They believed that making the entire game story driven would keep people well after the story was over. Having a completely story-driven MMO was breaking with standard MMO convention. Their hubris was believing they knew better than everyone before them about how to keep subs. They were wrong.
I'm seeing the same level of hubris with GW 2. They're breaking with time-worn convention because they think they know better.
Also, please keep the discussion civil. I have no time for and will not respond to insults.
Edit:
I'm not just a 2000-2005 mmo player. I'm an EVERY mmo player. I started playing MMOs with UO. That game had a grind. It was a fun grind but it was still a grind. EQ, EQ2, all the way up to VG and ALL the F2P games have grinds. TSW has a grind, AoC, TOR, all have a grind. They aren't fun grinds.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
Yep, that's all "gear grind" really is, an easy way to extend the feeling of character advancement beyond max level. Character progression at end game is really what it comes down to. Does the game just "end" or do you feel like you can still advance or accomplish something once you reach max level? A gear grind isn't necessary to satisfy that desire. It's hard to say whether or not GW2 will satisfy players after level 80 since no one has been there yet, but Anet appears to be trying to offer some alternatives to the current trends (I guess we'll see if things like WvW keep people's long-term interest, although if done right like in DAoC it definitely can have a long lifespan).
Also, a gear grind isn't guaranteed to keep players attention either. I leveled to 60 in the early days of WoW but once I hit the gear grind I quit because I realized I was entering an endless cycle of gear upgrades.
There's a fundamental difference, though: In GW2, there is real change. The game does break several MMO paradigms. It's not just talk. We've seen that already. We've played it. And many of us liked it.
As such, I feel they are entitled to say whatever they want about this. At least they delivered.
About the gear grind, I disagree. Not all games rely on grinds. Repetitive action is not a grind, per se. A grind happens when the goal supersedes the means. I'll play WvW until I drop dead, and I'll get a lot of gear pieces from it, eventually. But they are not the reason I take part in WvW.
As such, grind is also highly subjective.
That remains to be seen. I've played the beta as well.
I think, in general, mmorpg.com'ers like to place people into two groups: those who support a title and those who do not. Much like federal level politics: there's many gray areas.
I like GW2 and am looking forward to it. However, that doesn't preclude me from pointing out potential flaws in their marketing machine.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
There I fixed it for you because for most of us we don't agree.
This site never ceases to amaze me.
There's nothing "hubris" about trying to do something different. It's not that they think they know better than everyone else, it's just they think that players might be tired of playing the same game over and over again., What you consider conventions that can't be changed others call conventions that are tired and worn out. With TOR, I'm glad that my leveling experience is different than every other game I've played. Instead of the stupid boring text, I get voiceovers and diolague choices just like I did in KOTOR.
GW2 fans will be happy to be free of paying a sub fee and also being free of the gear grind along with other things that they'ce seen over and over again. Anet isn't being a know it all by trying to be different, they're just trying to give players more CHOICE in the MMORPG market, which is a good thing.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Change does not remain to be seen. It happened, already. I am not saying that GW2 is the best thing in this and other Universes, though. I'm simply stating the fact that Anet set out to change some MMO dogmas. And that they did, in a very objective way. People may subjectively dislike the end result, there's nothing wrong with that. But the developer delivered most, if not all, features they promised, so far.
Compare that to the rampage of "revolutionary' MMOs that are constantly launched.
Also, why did you box me as a fanboy (or your euphemism) simply because I stated my opinion and disagreed with you? I don't have any issues with criticism and such; it's not my game. And many here would feel the same.
Let's discuss ideas, not people.
How's the bandwagon feel? A little rough? Here's a pillow.
Few people cause change by agreement.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
I think I'm on my own bandwagon heading in the same direction as a lot of others, 95+ hours of game play already within the game is quite enough for me to realize I have quite a different opinion based on experience within the game not just blind ignorance.
fun and rewarding?
i dont consider hearing a bunch of mouthbreathers on ventrilo for a couple hours arguing over loot as fun and rewarding.which is the common thing in gear grind mmos
yeah those things keep people playing longer. .but not because it is fun. . once you have done it in a few games for multiple months the thought of starting over just about kills me. I couldn't get into SWTOR, Secret World etc. etc. I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I need something different- of course it might not keep me long either.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
I didn't say anything about raiding.
In UO there was a grind to get mats to make gear which you lost when you fought.
That was a grind, hell, that was three or four grinds. It was a blast.
Edit:
The whole damn game of EVE is a grind. So is WoW. That doesn't make them less fun. See, I posit that not all grinds are the same. Some suck (most F2P titles) while some are fantastic and keep people coming back for years (WoW, Eve, EQ1).
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
Saying things need to stay the same is causing change?
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Change does not remain to be seen. It happened, already. I am not saying that GW2 is the best thing in this and other Universes, though. I'm simply stating the fact that Anet set out to change some MMO dogmas. And that they did, in a very objective way. People may subjectively dislike the end result, there's nothing wrong with that. But the developer delivered most, if not all, features they promised, so far.
Compare that to the rampage of "revolutionary' MMOs that are constantly launched.
Also, why did you box me as a fanboy (or your euphemism) simply because I stated my opinion and disagreed with you? I don't have any issues with criticism and such; it's not my game. And many here would feel the same.
Let's discuss ideas, not people.
I am sorry but what have they changed? Have they come up with something new? Where is the endgame? How many times will i bother doing the same dynamic events. Shadow behemoth looks Nice but do boring. Just a zerg and really i forsee that most need to be zergs as communication was non existant.
I am gonna enjoy structured pvp though that i am looking forward to playing.
Well i do like GW2, but it isnt my perfect game by a longshot..its missing some things i consider "required", but it does have its charms
i do give them props though for trying to be different and do their own thing. If you want to call it hubris thats fine. You could also call it guts. not every vision will work, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt try.
Er, I agree and disagree here. I think they are fun when they are in an open and somewhat dynamic world like UO. . not when it is so formulaic that if you don't hit the right key at second 1523 in the battle it doesn't work. A grid is good as long as there is some element of surprise or exploring. A reason to get something and getting it changes. . even a little. . that works for me.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Corrections are in RED:
I don't think you realise you are subjigating EVERYONE in your own opinion which is wrong. A LOT of people including myself Find them less fun solely on the reason that they are A GRIND!!!!
You are welcome to your own opinion but when you are catogerizing EVERYONE with your statements then I have to point out the obvious that I for one do not agree and have refused to play those games you mentioned for the same reason you said "that doesn't make them less fun" cause they sure as hell weren't fun for me because of the grind.
it's fine if you find grinding fun. but grind is not required to have fun, as you stated in the OP.
Things don't need to stay the same. But change for the sake of it doesn't do anything except alienate subs.
Case in point: EQ2's voice overs. They didn't win subs, they just cost dollars. It was new and wonderful but because they spent so damn much money on the VO they didn't bother to get good art designers so most of the models looked absolutely terrible. All the animations look effeminate. There were so many things they could have done better but didn't because they spent all their damn money on NEW AND FUCKING FLASHY!
The same holds true for SW:TOR. The new and effing flashing thing is to have a story from level 1 to 50. That's great. THat's really great but did they bother to make the whole game feel like a world before calling it an MMO? Did they bother to have crafting that's engaging and entertaining to make and sell? Nope. Did they bother to have multiple tracks through the mid-game so people could have some replayability? What about high end armor sets? They all look like crap - seriously, total crap. But that's all fine and good because they bucked the conventions and took the alternate route as a fucking selling point.
My point is this: don't buck convention unless you've already taken care to make the game good in almost all aspects. WoW did this. EVE did this. DAoC did this. Nobody else has so far.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.