Originally posted by Relent As far as understanding what an analogy is, and the absurd word games you're flinging about to justify the opinion that an action is ok simply because people keep doing it, you're correct that further explanation is a waste of time.
Therein lies your false assumption. Please point out to me where I specifically said: "an action is ok simply because people keep on doing it." In fact, where did I ever provide my judgement of the resale of virtual items? I do not believe I have stated my opinion as to whether or not I approve or disapprove...and you have not bothered to clarify.
Fundamentally you misunderstand the point I am making. I am not saying that the action is "ok" because it is done...what I am saying is that it is human nature for two people with a surplus of a commodity to arrange a bartering of those commodities. In this case, we are speaking of the commodities of time and money...one player will have plenty of time (to farm items) and another player will have plenty of money (to buy such items). No matter what rule systems you devise, what ethical evangelisms you preach, and whatver laws you may pass, you will never root out the desire of these two people to exchange their surplus for their deficiency. Humans, by their nature, collaborate to the aggrandizement of their own interests...that's what makes society work, and that's what makes our lives better.
Hence, you will never stop the demand for this kind of service...whether organized or simply performed at a grass-roots level. People will always, naturally, collaborate...and services like IGE simply provide a uniform, standardized way to facilitate this.
If you ask my opinion on the subject at large I will tell you that the problems here do not lie specifically in the actual bartering of goods for money, but instead in the game design that allows for highly-repetitive (and thus scriptable) action that requires little human intelligence to gain virtual wealth. If you really want to impact this business in a significant way then demand of your gaming companies that they develop systems that require more thought than can be handled by a script. If you remove script farmers from games you will seriously impact the ability of farming operations to inflate economies. In the bargain you might also happen to get a decent game too.
I am amazed at the lack of basic literary understanding even AFTER it was explained, honestly to say you understand the semantics and to continue viewing it as a comparison is idiotic, I apologize if that offends you.
Ianubisi- thank you for taking the time to further explain yourself rather then proclaim my wrongness and end it there. I was not directly relating my post to you... as you can see many are making the same mistake... I thought explaining the difference might be helpful. I suppose I shouldn't hold ideas like that to an online message board.
"Humans, by their nature, collaborate to the aggrandizement of their own interests...that's what makes society work, and that's what makes our lives better."
It may be how it works but that doesn't make society better, always... the slave trade certainly gives a person access to cheap labor making his life better, and giving the seller an income... But does it make society better?
(now be careful folks, I just used another ANALOGY, not COMPARISON)
I have to disagree, but I certainly understand its not a cut and dry issue. Look at any mega successful business in the world... You will eventually find some form of exploitation that does not better mankind but the company itself. Loggers cutting down protected forests, oil companies buying out land that supposedly cannot be bought, 3rd would outsourcing and questionable labor practices... bribery of government officials.
You might say that IGE is providing a service between two people, trading time for money... But now they are agressively buying out fansites, not just advertising on them. Why would they need to do something like that?
My point is there is a reason we have laws and such because two people coming together doesn't necessarily mean its beneficial to anyone else, or that it is limited to those two people and that it wouldn't affect anyone else.
My point has always been, selling items in-game currency or any of these actions inside an MMORPG is bad for the economy as the currency becomes inflated so that to be competitive you must also use the out of game currency. It tears at the fabric (although that doesn't mean it succeeds) in that one is far less willing to help give someone items or money because now its "real."
for those that say it is not cheating. You are being offered an item in the game if you buy the "cheat" on IGE. You can use it as often as you wish provided you pay for it's use. You can buy characters, "a level cheat." You can buy money, "A money cheat"
You are using a method of obtaining these items that is nit within the realm of the games design, ask any dev. There is no way you can say, "I can start playing this game today and have a level 40, it's not a cheat." The argument against this is that someone else got it to 40 so it's not cheating... But I can use an unlimited ammo cheat in a game, just because its possible to get all the ammo in the game fairly doesn't make it less of a cheat.
YOU have to do something beyond the scope of the game to obtain it, its a cheat.
As you address it also leads to someone acquiring this wealth to sell by camping something, or selling goods at a highly inflated price in order to generate the in-game money they sell... both activities detract from the community of the game.
My point is, it's not as simple as one guy paying for the time to gather that money and someone else agreeing to sell... Any more then its as simple as selling cigarettes all over the world because people want to smoke... there are detrimental factors that go with that transaction (rising healthcare, lowering of general publics health, birth defects ect ect ect).
But I do embrace your point that if scripting could be curtailed then the rate of cash increased wouldn't have the harmful inflation as it would be a slower pace.
However I've visited many sites that involve scripting (I have never used such a thing nor would I begin to know how). They post this material right out into the open and it seems for every counter measure theres someone countering that.
It's a frusterating issue all around and I appreciate that you are willing to voice an opinion on it rather then just deny the issue.
Originally posted by Relent Ok, I always see both the usual complaints about selling in-game items for real money, (and about companies like IGE that profit from it) as well as the usual 'shut up and take it' by the ebayers themselves. Now I'm curious how players are really distributed on this subject. Myself, I'm a bit militant; I think cheaters should be sent packing. But where do you stand?
Relent, I completly agree with you! In fact this site MMORPG.com used to have a banner at the top of the page advertising for a site selling in game items. I made a thread about it, but it's burried under 500 tons of old threads LOL!
Technically it's not cheating. Because it doesn't involve bugs, exploits, hacking, cracking, or messing around with the game programing. And it cannot be stopped! Only one game has made a revolutionary attempt at curbing it - Star Wars Galaxies
SWG's main game DEV, Raph Koster, talked about the subject you raise. He even admitted it can't be stopped. But he (lightly cursed) and said the game company will do all in its power to make farmers, and other types of players who play the game against the way it was intended.... operating outside technically cheating... by making sure they pay SOME extra money for assulting the ingame economy. Raph said its better than not getting anything from farmers, and the rest of them.
This is one of the main reasons why SWG is officially SCS (Single Character per Server). It does not stop farmers, but puts a noticeable dent in the number of them. IMHO since nothing can be done about these types of players, the only thing one can do is play the game at your own pace, your own way. And be content with your personal fun - don't worry about other players. Your fun will last longer, vs other players who whine they're bored of [insert name of any mmorpg here].
Oh yes, in related news... everyone here who is a SWG fan, and DAoC fan, SHOULD remember years ago back when Mythic Entertainment (the makers of Dark Age of Camelot) did do something about farmers/ebayers. There was a company that was ebaying DAoC characters and ingame items. When it started to HURT Mythic's profits, THEN Mythic did something. Mythic took them to court - and WON!!! Mythic's court case was allll over the old SWG forums. The majority of mmorpg players (on the sites I visited) posted they were happy and glad Mythic won their court case. Mythic succeeded in having the other company fined, and have the court disband the other company!!!
I guess right now major MMORPG companies feel their profits are not being hurt (YET!) by major, companies.... like IGN and ebay. That might be why they have not hired their lawyers to take advantage of Mythic's court case.
Also... many MMORPG game companies actually profit from "cheat" sites, those book walk throughs you see for sale in computer stores. They NEVER advertise this.... you have to read it in the fine print. So it is possible they might be profiting from sites like IGN.
Comments
Therein lies your false assumption. Please point out to me where I specifically said: "an action is ok simply because people keep on doing it." In fact, where did I ever provide my judgement of the resale of virtual items? I do not believe I have stated my opinion as to whether or not I approve or disapprove...and you have not bothered to clarify.
Fundamentally you misunderstand the point I am making. I am not saying that the action is "ok" because it is done...what I am saying is that it is human nature for two people with a surplus of a commodity to arrange a bartering of those commodities. In this case, we are speaking of the commodities of time and money...one player will have plenty of time (to farm items) and another player will have plenty of money (to buy such items). No matter what rule systems you devise, what ethical evangelisms you preach, and whatver laws you may pass, you will never root out the desire of these two people to exchange their surplus for their deficiency. Humans, by their nature, collaborate to the aggrandizement of their own interests...that's what makes society work, and that's what makes our lives better.
Hence, you will never stop the demand for this kind of service...whether organized or simply performed at a grass-roots level. People will always, naturally, collaborate...and services like IGE simply provide a uniform, standardized way to facilitate this.
If you ask my opinion on the subject at large I will tell you that the problems here do not lie specifically in the actual bartering of goods for money, but instead in the game design that allows for highly-repetitive (and thus scriptable) action that requires little human intelligence to gain virtual wealth. If you really want to impact this business in a significant way then demand of your gaming companies that they develop systems that require more thought than can be handled by a script. If you remove script farmers from games you will seriously impact the ability of farming operations to inflate economies. In the bargain you might also happen to get a decent game too.
I am amazed at the lack of basic literary understanding even AFTER it was explained, honestly to say you understand the semantics and to continue viewing it as a comparison is idiotic, I apologize if that offends you.
Ianubisi- thank you for taking the time to further explain yourself rather then proclaim my wrongness and end it there. I was not directly relating my post to you... as you can see many are making the same mistake... I thought explaining the difference might be helpful. I suppose I shouldn't hold ideas like that to an online message board.
"Humans, by their nature, collaborate to the aggrandizement of their own interests...that's what makes society work, and that's what makes our lives better."
It may be how it works but that doesn't make society better, always... the slave trade certainly gives a person access to cheap labor making his life better, and giving the seller an income... But does it make society better?
(now be careful folks, I just used another ANALOGY, not COMPARISON)
I have to disagree, but I certainly understand its not a cut and dry issue. Look at any mega successful business in the world... You will eventually find some form of exploitation that does not better mankind but the company itself. Loggers cutting down protected forests, oil companies buying out land that supposedly cannot be bought, 3rd would outsourcing and questionable labor practices... bribery of government officials.
You might say that IGE is providing a service between two people, trading time for money... But now they are agressively buying out fansites, not just advertising on them. Why would they need to do something like that?
My point is there is a reason we have laws and such because two people coming together doesn't necessarily mean its beneficial to anyone else, or that it is limited to those two people and that it wouldn't affect anyone else.
My point has always been, selling items in-game currency or any of these actions inside an MMORPG is bad for the economy as the currency becomes inflated so that to be competitive you must also use the out of game currency. It tears at the fabric (although that doesn't mean it succeeds) in that one is far less willing to help give someone items or money because now its "real."
for those that say it is not cheating. You are being offered an item in the game if you buy the "cheat" on IGE. You can use it as often as you wish provided you pay for it's use. You can buy characters, "a level cheat." You can buy money, "A money cheat"
You are using a method of obtaining these items that is nit within the realm of the games design, ask any dev. There is no way you can say, "I can start playing this game today and have a level 40, it's not a cheat." The argument against this is that someone else got it to 40 so it's not cheating... But I can use an unlimited ammo cheat in a game, just because its possible to get all the ammo in the game fairly doesn't make it less of a cheat.
YOU have to do something beyond the scope of the game to obtain it, its a cheat.
As you address it also leads to someone acquiring this wealth to sell by camping something, or selling goods at a highly inflated price in order to generate the in-game money they sell... both activities detract from the community of the game.
My point is, it's not as simple as one guy paying for the time to gather that money and someone else agreeing to sell... Any more then its as simple as selling cigarettes all over the world because people want to smoke... there are detrimental factors that go with that transaction (rising healthcare, lowering of general publics health, birth defects ect ect ect).
But I do embrace your point that if scripting could be curtailed then the rate of cash increased wouldn't have the harmful inflation as it would be a slower pace.
However I've visited many sites that involve scripting (I have never used such a thing nor would I begin to know how). They post this material right out into the open and it seems for every counter measure theres someone countering that.
It's a frusterating issue all around and I appreciate that you are willing to voice an opinion on it rather then just deny the issue.
Relent, I completly agree with you! In fact this site MMORPG.com used to have a banner at the top of the page advertising for a site selling in game items. I made a thread about it, but it's burried under 500 tons of old threads LOL!
Technically it's not cheating. Because it doesn't involve bugs, exploits, hacking, cracking, or messing around with the game programing. And it cannot be stopped! Only one game has made a revolutionary attempt at curbing it - Star Wars Galaxies
SWG's main game DEV, Raph Koster, talked about the subject you raise. He even admitted it can't be stopped. But he (lightly cursed) and said the game company will do all in its power to make farmers, and other types of players who play the game against the way it was intended.... operating outside technically cheating... by making sure they pay SOME extra money for assulting the ingame economy. Raph said its better than not getting anything from farmers, and the rest of them.
This is one of the main reasons why SWG is officially SCS (Single Character per Server). It does not stop farmers, but puts a noticeable dent in the number of them. IMHO since nothing can be done about these types of players, the only thing one can do is play the game at your own pace, your own way. And be content with your personal fun - don't worry about other players. Your fun will last longer, vs other players who whine they're bored of [insert name of any mmorpg here].
Oh yes, in related news... everyone here who is a SWG fan, and DAoC fan, SHOULD remember years ago back when Mythic Entertainment (the makers of Dark Age of Camelot) did do something about farmers/ebayers. There was a company that was ebaying DAoC characters and ingame items. When it started to HURT Mythic's profits, THEN Mythic did something. Mythic took them to court - and WON!!! Mythic's court case was allll over the old SWG forums. The majority of mmorpg players (on the sites I visited) posted they were happy and glad Mythic won their court case. Mythic succeeded in having the other company fined, and have the court disband the other company!!!
I guess right now major MMORPG companies feel their profits are not being hurt (YET!) by major, companies.... like IGN and ebay. That might be why they have not hired their lawyers to take advantage of Mythic's court case.
Also... many MMORPG game companies actually profit from "cheat" sites, those book walk throughs you see for sale in computer stores. They NEVER advertise this.... you have to read it in the fine print. So it is possible they might be profiting from sites like IGN.