The point is that the community is using this whole QL thing in the same way they used it in WoW. The difference being that in WoW, it was only used at the end game, in TSW it's used through out the whole game.
The simple fact is that most people have horrible builds. If you're an experienced player with a decent grasp of ability synergy, you'll probably be able to run instances with lower than the recommended QL gear and do alright. Most people will not, however. QL requirements sort of even out the playing field by ensuring that even if you have a sub par build, you can still sort of pull your own weight.
Now that I won't argue with. Some are ridiculous in how they have latched on to the whole QL thing. What kills me is they're flat out wrong. Not even worth arguing with them though. I use it as natural selection to ensure people I won't play with. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that is why my dungeon experiences in this game have been fun and fairly easy.
Honestly man I would love to say I'm some uber player but I doubt it. I'm maybe average at best. I love these games but I've never been pro at them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
The Q level stuff is getting out of hand even in game.. I play a healer and because I had a few Q level 2 items on, a group wouldn't take me to polaris..
I was like seriously, your gonna use Q level to determine the skill of a player.. Just like freaking WoW raid tiers or item levels..
Originally posted by Xstatic912 The Q level stuff is getting out of hand even in game.. I play a healer and because I had a few Q level 2 items on, a group wouldn't take me to polaris..
I was like seriously, your gonna use Q level to determine the skill of a player.. Just like freaking WoW raid tiers or item levels..
You're better off anyways. I mean anyone doing that is simply a moron. Having a mixture of QL2/3 items is more than enough for Polaris.
Like I said better to not have to deal with those shmucks in the long run anyways. Plenty of others out there to group with that won't make you want to roll your eyes or punch a kitten every five minutes.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Well, yeah it is, but I mean take a look at UO, make a new character and go fight a gargoyle, treant, lich...You would get stomped, no levels, no gear levels (gear wouldnt of helped you here in original UO either)....It was 90% skill, if you didn't have your magic resist up, and decent fighting/magic you would get smacked down.....The big difference is that UO didn't have instances, you could go to a dungeon or spawn area and get beat down, no one was keeping you from it (except pks).
So yeah people have been trained atleast since EQ to worry about other peoples gear, and I imagine they are going overboard with it, if anything, due to it becoming SOP for many people.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
A progression system is levels.
I disagree, if the game would only have the ability unlocking/progression system but no QL system, it would still have progression but it would not feel like there's levels in the game. The QL system feels like there's concrete levels from 1 to 10, the ability progression has nothing to do with it.
RPG of any shape of form has levels, it may not be so cut and dry that has a number assigned to it, but its still levels. A level-less game is a game like the sims. Developers may do a good job of disguising it, they do may do a bad job of disguising it, but none the less there is a level system.
This argument that "insert game" doesnt have levels is an argument of posturing. Its basically fans acting like their turd doesnt stink. For some reason this argument has is some how justifacation that their game is better than other games because it doesnt have levels. Somehow admitting that it has levels is damnation for the game. Its all bogus, all MMORPGS are level based..... somehow, someway someshape. I am not ranting on you kuinn so please dont take it like that, as your response did not come off as arrogant as some posts that I have seen on this topic over the years.
Last time I really got into this debate really hard was on FFXIV pre-launch, I was a huge fan, mainly because of XI. Other XIV fans were going around gloating that it wasnt going to have levels, they wore it as a badge, it made me sick reading that garbage. MMO's have levels, progression is levels. If it doesnt have levels I should be able to go into the game on day one and do anything I want, and be equal to anything a guy who has been playing for years can do. Zone based progression, gear based progression, level based progression, it doesnt matter its progression therfore its essentially levels, just not the old fashion cut and dry levels.
I get what you're saying. Progression in any form can (will) be compared to levels more or less. It's just that, concrete "hard" levels does not have to be a rule. I thought the progression would not be so straight forward as in most RPG's, but it pretty much is.
It's not a bad thing, I've gotten used to, and have no problem with that in about any rpg/mmorpg, I just thought the system would be vastly different based on the basic information and by most striking hyping chants heh, and because I believe the system can be vastly different if only someone wants to actually make it so.
Everytime I think I have the right gear for the next level , I still keep getting my Ass handed to me and thats just next part after Kingsmouth , tbh I'm getting a little frustrated with it
But I guess I'm just not combining the right Skills + Weapons .. I much would have preffered normal leveling in this game , tho I know they are trying to do sometning different.
I think that the whole QL thing is a bit worse. For example, as you're leveling in WoW, it order to run Scarlet Monastery your character needs to be around level 30, if I remember correctly. In TSW you need to have QL3 items in order to run Polaris, QL5 for Inferno and so on, especially if you're a tank or a healer. The difference is that everyone will eventually get to level 30 but to get QL3 items you need to get lucky with the drops.
It's basically the same type of gear requirements WoW end game heroics and raids have but this time it's not limited to the end game. The whole game requires you to have a certain gear quality in order to run instances. Which, in my opinion, is not good for leveling instances.
This isn't true at all. I have tanked and healed Polaris, Inferno, and DW and not once was I QL3, QL5, or whatever the fuck magical number some people throw out there. If you do the quests in the zone the dungeon is in you will be fine gear wise for said dungeon.
...and no I have not been lucky with drops. I can't get healing gear to drop to save my life.
I am not saying gear isn't important but this myth that you have to have a certain QL to the point of needing to farm drops or repeat quests is simply wrong. At least for the first three dungeons.
Correct Wicked. I have healed in Q4-5 gear in Ankh the first dungeon in Egypt as AR/Blood. There is no gating of content. This remains true for every dungeon aside from the Elite versions.
So can you do Ankh at QL1-3? If not, it is still gating content and the restrictions are tad looser than normal. Try going to the besieged farmlands in Transylvania and watch you get your ass handed to you because you have not leveled up your talisman and weapon skills. Go, go do it now, you can actually go there without any restrictions. Try to do that area at QL4-5. Watch the constant glances you will recieve with normal mobs that has 8k and the larger ones with 15k+. Also, every normal mob comes in a pack of 2 in Transylvania so if you aren't pumping out great dps as a dps or heal through the huge amounts of damage they put out. You will die extremely quick.
A true leveless system would allow you from the get go to do any content you damn well pleased. Only your natural skill at playing the game would dictate how much you win or fail.
So can you do Ankh at QL1-3? If not, it is still gating content and the restrictions are tad looser than normal. Try going to the besieged farmlands in Transylvania and watch you get your ass handed to you because you have not leveled up your talisman and weapon skills. Go, go do it now, you can actually go there without any restrictions. Try to do that area at QL4-5. Watch the constant glances you will recieve with normal mobs that has 8k and the larger ones with 15k+. Also, every normal mob comes in a pack of 2 in Transylvania so if you aren't pumping out great dps as a dps or heal through the huge amounts of damage they put out. You will die extremely quick.
A true leveless system would allow you from the get go to do any content you damn well pleased. Only your natural skill at playing the game would dictate how much you win or fail.
I don't believe this is what the poster meant although they used a bad descriptor. I believe they were simply agreeing with me that completing the quests in a zone provides enough gear to do the dungeon in that zone. Not that you can complete the tutorial and head to Egypt and do the dungeon there.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
You are wrong.
When you attack something above your level, which is indicated by the red dot next to their name, you will glance every attack.
Just like games with a level based "conning" system the level difference is calculated and then affects your overall abilities with modifiers. It is liertally impossible to fight things a few QL above your gear. Even if you had an awesome build you wuld do zero damage because of the not so hidden levels and conning system.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
You are wrong.
When you attack something above your level, which is indicated by the red dot next to their name, you will glance every attack.
Just like games with a level based "conning" system the level difference is calculated and then affects your overall abilities with modifiers. It is liertally impossible to fight things a few QL above your gear. Even if you had an awesome build you wuld do zero damage because of the not so hidden levels and conning system.
No. Not every shot is a glance, you just glance more. Ive taken down mobs way out side my ability, just takes longer, i was using a leech/heal survivability spec..was able to drop the mob eventually
Again im not sure why people are so desperate to try to find a hidden level system in a game with no levels...do we need levels so badly that we have to surmise there are levels to make us feel more comfortable?
For those convinced theres a level system: what do you consider endgame to be then? the moment you can participate in hardmode dungeons or when you max out all your skills or max out just one role...?
While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
Jesus christ, ITS ***** RPG, there has to be character advancement of some sort: OF COURSE you can't go to a dungeon undergeared, otherwise everything would need be at a constant difficulty level, i.e. being an FPS. But since this is MMORPG, why, for the love of god, are you so surprised? Your character has NO LEVELS, that's what it's being said and that's true. BUT that doesn't mean that there isn't any CHARACTER ADVANCEMENT. OBVIOUSLY.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
You are wrong.
When you attack something above your level, which is indicated by the red dot next to their name, you will glance every attack.
Just like games with a level based "conning" system the level difference is calculated and then affects your overall abilities with modifiers. It is liertally impossible to fight things a few QL above your gear. Even if you had an awesome build you wuld do zero damage because of the not so hidden levels and conning system.
No. Not every shot is a glance, you just glance more. Ive taken down mobs way out side my ability, just takes longer, i was using a leech/heal survivability spec..was able to drop the mob eventually
Again im not sure why people are so desperate to try to find a hidden level system in a game with no levels...do we need levels so badly that we have to surmise there are levels to make us feel more comfortable?
For those convinced theres a level system: what do you consider endgame to be then? the moment you can participate in hardmode dungeons or when you max out all your skills or max out just one role...?
You beat me too it, I was going to say the same thing.
But I can see how people are calling this levels, because the gear acts just like a leveling system, but not 100% like it. There has to be some kind of artificial barriers, and I dont have a problem at all with this one.
I havent thought of levels at all since playing TSW, and its kinda refreshing.
Originally posted by Kuinn Originally posted by toddzeOriginally posted by KuinnOriginally posted by toddzeOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Lord.Bachus
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels". A progression system is levels.I disagree, if the game would only have the ability unlocking/progression system but no QL system, it would still have progression but it would not feel like there's levels in the game. The QL system feels like there's concrete levels from 1 to 10, the ability progression has nothing to do with it.RPG of any shape of form has levels, it may not be so cut and dry that has a number assigned to it, but its still levels. A level-less game is a game like the sims. Developers may do a good job of disguising it, they do may do a bad job of disguising it, but none the less there is a level system.This argument that "insert game" doesnt have levels is an argument of posturing. Its basically fans acting like their turd doesnt stink. For some reason this argument has is some how justifacation that their game is better than other games because it doesnt have levels. Somehow admitting that it has levels is damnation for the game. Its all bogus, all MMORPGS are level based..... somehow, someway someshape. I am not ranting on you kuinn so please dont take it like that, as your response did not come off as arrogant as some posts that I have seen on this topic over the years.Last time I really got into this debate really hard was on FFXIV pre-launch, I was a huge fan, mainly because of XI. Other XIV fans were going around gloating that it wasnt going to have levels, they wore it as a badge, it made me sick reading that garbage. MMO's have levels, progression is levels. If it doesnt have levels I should be able to go into the game on day one and do anything I want, and be equal to anything a guy who has been playing for years can do. Zone based progression, gear based progression, level based progression, it doesnt matter its progression therfore its essentially levels, just not the old fashion cut and dry levels.
I get what you're saying. Progression in any form can (will) be compared to levels more or less. It's just that, concrete "hard" levels does not have to be a rule. I thought the progression would not be so straight forward as in most RPG's, but it pretty much is.
It's not a bad thing, I've gotten used to, and have no problem with that in about any rpg/mmorpg, I just thought the system would be vastly different based on the basic information and by most striking hyping chants heh, and because I believe the system can be vastly different if only someone wants to actually make it so.
It doesn't really matter what you do with it, it's still going to be some form of progression. Developing a character to become something other than what you start with is a baseline mechanic of RPG and the fantasy stories that helped fuel the creation of the games. Even if a game doesn't have any sort of progression mechanics built in (like a Minecraft public server), players will still engage in forms of progression by claiming land or collecting diamonds to sell in a marketplace. It's just a fundamental aspect of the genre. If you play an RPG, you will somehow progress, whether it's with levels, skills, gear or some combination of the three.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
Jesus christ, ITS ***** RPG, there has to be character advancement of some sort: OF COURSE you can't go to a dungeon undergeared, otherwise everything would need be at a constant difficulty level, i.e. being an FPS. But since this is MMORPG, why, for the love of god, are you so surprised? Your character has NO LEVELS, that's what it's being said and that's true. BUT that doesn't mean that there isn't any CHARACTER ADVANCEMENT. OBVIOUSLY.
So those level dings for AP and SP are not really there. Got ya. Hey guys, you are not dinging a level to get recieve fresh sp or ap to level up your skill level to gain higher quality level gear or further your build.
You are gaining levels. Just because you do not see the level does not mean there aren't any. The game has an extremely flexible leveling system since you can advance your character how you want. But there are still levels just not the 1-85 type more like 1-10 just spread about. :P
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
A progression system is levels.
A recliner is a chair, but not all chairs are recliners.
Levels are a form of progression system, but not all progression systems are level based.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
This is also a load of tosh. You are hand held from zone to zone, you cant leave the first zone until you've become powerful enough, the game physically blocks you from doing it. I also can't leave the savage coast and go to the blue mountain area even though i've completed more than half the quests in savage coast. It still says im not powerful enough.
So, once again, tired argument or not, the game is still acting like other MMOs in function.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
A progression system is levels.
A recliner is a chair, but not all chairs are recliners.
Levels are a form of progression system, but not all progression systems are level based.
But this game does have levels. A true levelless system would have you progress by having you learn improved skills through actual content. The Legend of Zelda series is probably the closest rpg game that has a levelless system. You gain power by actually doing content to learn or find things to help progress your character. However, the game was somewhat linear on how you would progress. If TSW had a system like that in game along with freeform exploring, it could be the greatest mmo ever for me. Sadly, it does not do that.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
This is also a load of tosh. You are hand held from zone to zone, you cant leave the first zone until you've become powerful enough, the game physically blocks you from doing it. I also can't leave the savage coast and go to the blue mountain area even though i've completed more than half the quests in savage coast. It still says im not powerful enough.
So, once again, tired argument or not, the game is still acting like other MMOs in function.
Odd, we were helping a guildie in BM before we even went into savage coast. It didn't tell us we couldn't... we just got our asses handed to us repeatedly....
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.
Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.
But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired.
If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.
For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).
Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.
It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
A progression system is levels.
A recliner is a chair, but not all chairs are recliners.
Levels are a form of progression system, but not all progression systems are level based.
But this game does have levels. A true levelless system would have you progress by having you learn improved skills through actual content. The Legend of Zelda series is probably the closest rpg game that has a levelless system. You gain power by actually doing content to learn or find things to help progress your character. However, the game was somewhat linear on how you would progress. If TSW had a system like that in game along with freeform exploring, it could be the greatest mmo ever for me. Sadly, it does not do that.
Eh, to me a leveling system is something that makes you wait until you have reached a specific point progression wise before you can obtain a specific abilty, enter specific content, etc. And each time you hit that specific point, the stakes for the next point double or tripple. In TSW you do gain XP, but you do not have to wait for some pre-determined progression point to acquire a specific skill or to access specific content.
I mean the way you are presenting it, Zelda can be said to be level based as you cannot acquire said power or things to help you along untill you reach those areas.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Originally posted by fyerwall Originally posted by HrimnirOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Lord.BachusWhile there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level. Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared. But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired. If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels. For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post). Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content. It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels". This is also a load of tosh. You are hand held from zone to zone, you cant leave the first zone until you've become powerful enough, the game physically blocks you from doing it. I also can't leave the savage coast and go to the blue mountain area even though i've completed more than half the quests in savage coast. It still says im not powerful enough.So, once again, tired argument or not, the game is still acting like other MMOs in function.Odd, we were helping a guildie in BM before we even went into savage coast. It didn't tell us we couldn't... we just got our asses handed to us repeatedly....
Just because you can go anywhere you want, doesn't mean you should go anywhere you want. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Lord.BachusWhile there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level. Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared. But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
This argument is getting tired. If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels. For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post). Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content. It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".
This is also a load of tosh. You are hand held from zone to zone, you cant leave the first zone until you've become powerful enough, the game physically blocks you from doing it. I also can't leave the savage coast and go to the blue mountain area even though i've completed more than half the quests in savage coast. It still says im not powerful enough.So, once again, tired argument or not, the game is still acting like other MMOs in function.
Odd, we were helping a guildie in BM before we even went into savage coast. It didn't tell us we couldn't... we just got our asses handed to us repeatedly....
Just because you can go anywhere you want, doesn't mean you should go anywhere you want. :-)
True :P
And those freaking Ak'ab are annoying
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
But this game does have levels. A true levelless system would have you progress by having you learn improved skills through actual content. The Legend of Zelda series is probably the closest rpg game that has a levelless system. You gain power by actually doing content to learn or find things to help progress your character. However, the game was somewhat linear on how you would progress. If TSW had a system like that in game along with freeform exploring, it could be the greatest mmo ever for me. Sadly, it does not do that.
Eh, to me a leveling system is something that makes you wait until you have reached a specific point progression wise before you can obtain a specific abilty, enter specific content, etc. And each time you hit that specific point, the stakes for the next point double or tripple. In TSW you do gain XP, but you do not have to wait for some pre-determined progression point to acquire a specific skill or to access specific content.
The thing is you do have predetermined progression. Say you want to grab the skill, Tear Gas, a outer ring skill in shotgun worth 27 ap. You will be forced to unlock both inner tiers and then unlock each prerequisite skill before it. You cannot just say "hey, I want this skill" and bam it is on your bar. You first need to fill up that xp bar multiple times and level to gain ap so you can get that skill.
Also, the predetermined progression point for content is as clear as day. Having your skills less than lvl 8 for Transylvania and you will get your ass handed to you since you will constantly glance and the mobs will hit you for more than 200-300 damage a second. That is without even critting and penetrating you, those normal single dot mobs come in 2 and 3s so you need to burst them down quick or outlast them. Which will not happen since you have not leveled your skills up.
I mean the way you are presenting it, Zelda can be said to be level based as you cannot acquire said power or things to help you along untill you reach those areas.
Games have progression of one form or another. It's how you measure your character's progress and development throughout the experience. It's how developers are able to ramp up and diversify the challenges presented to the player over time. It's a core mechanic in many types of games, particularly RPGs.
A character level based system is a type of progression.
A skill-based system is a type of progression.
A QL system is a type of progression.
And so on and so forth.
Every game in the Zelda series has a system of progression through gear. Castlevania games have a system of progression of different types depending on the title. Every game in the Metroid series has a system of progression. Final Fantasy games have a system of progression. Etc. Etc.
So, TSW has a progression system based more around gear QL than traditional character levels or skill levels or any of a variety of other implementations. Great. Wonderful. They've found a somewhat unique, or at least uncommon, way to present progression to players that allows them to diversify and spread out into different builds, to mix-and-match active and passive skills. It's a great system.
So what, exactly, is the problem? I'm an active player and fan of TSW and I'll say it has a form of progression (call it leveling if it makes you feel better) without hesitation, because I simply don't see the problem in it.
Can someone fill me in on what crime has been comitted here, exactly? Why all the debate over something being exactly what it's supposed to be? Are you people that desperate for something to argue about?
Can someone fill me in on what crime has been comitted here, exactly? Why all the debate over something being exactly what it's supposed to be? Are you people that desperate for something to argue about?
I think it's basically every game uses all this marketing speak to say what it has or doesn't. I suppose the issue is this game is as level based as any other, despite the clever marketing.
Comments
Is that a negative thing?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Now that I won't argue with. Some are ridiculous in how they have latched on to the whole QL thing. What kills me is they're flat out wrong. Not even worth arguing with them though. I use it as natural selection to ensure people I won't play with. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that is why my dungeon experiences in this game have been fun and fairly easy.
Honestly man I would love to say I'm some uber player but I doubt it. I'm maybe average at best. I love these games but I've never been pro at them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I was like seriously, your gonna use Q level to determine the skill of a player.. Just like freaking WoW raid tiers or item levels..
You're better off anyways. I mean anyone doing that is simply a moron. Having a mixture of QL2/3 items is more than enough for Polaris.
Like I said better to not have to deal with those shmucks in the long run anyways. Plenty of others out there to group with that won't make you want to roll your eyes or punch a kitten every five minutes.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Well, yeah it is, but I mean take a look at UO, make a new character and go fight a gargoyle, treant, lich...You would get stomped, no levels, no gear levels (gear wouldnt of helped you here in original UO either)....It was 90% skill, if you didn't have your magic resist up, and decent fighting/magic you would get smacked down.....The big difference is that UO didn't have instances, you could go to a dungeon or spawn area and get beat down, no one was keeping you from it (except pks).
So yeah people have been trained atleast since EQ to worry about other peoples gear, and I imagine they are going overboard with it, if anything, due to it becoming SOP for many people.
I get what you're saying. Progression in any form can (will) be compared to levels more or less. It's just that, concrete "hard" levels does not have to be a rule. I thought the progression would not be so straight forward as in most RPG's, but it pretty much is.
It's not a bad thing, I've gotten used to, and have no problem with that in about any rpg/mmorpg, I just thought the system would be vastly different based on the basic information and by most striking hyping chants heh, and because I believe the system can be vastly different if only someone wants to actually make it so.
Everytime I think I have the right gear for the next level , I still keep getting my Ass handed to me and thats just next part after Kingsmouth , tbh I'm getting a little frustrated with it
But I guess I'm just not combining the right Skills + Weapons .. I much would have preffered normal leveling in this game , tho I know they are trying to do sometning different.
So can you do Ankh at QL1-3? If not, it is still gating content and the restrictions are tad looser than normal. Try going to the besieged farmlands in Transylvania and watch you get your ass handed to you because you have not leveled up your talisman and weapon skills. Go, go do it now, you can actually go there without any restrictions. Try to do that area at QL4-5. Watch the constant glances you will recieve with normal mobs that has 8k and the larger ones with 15k+. Also, every normal mob comes in a pack of 2 in Transylvania so if you aren't pumping out great dps as a dps or heal through the huge amounts of damage they put out. You will die extremely quick.
A true leveless system would allow you from the get go to do any content you damn well pleased. Only your natural skill at playing the game would dictate how much you win or fail.
BOOYAKA!
I don't believe this is what the poster meant although they used a bad descriptor. I believe they were simply agreeing with me that completing the quests in a zone provides enough gear to do the dungeon in that zone. Not that you can complete the tutorial and head to Egypt and do the dungeon there.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
You are wrong.
When you attack something above your level, which is indicated by the red dot next to their name, you will glance every attack.
Just like games with a level based "conning" system the level difference is calculated and then affects your overall abilities with modifiers. It is liertally impossible to fight things a few QL above your gear. Even if you had an awesome build you wuld do zero damage because of the not so hidden levels and conning system.
No. Not every shot is a glance, you just glance more. Ive taken down mobs way out side my ability, just takes longer, i was using a leech/heal survivability spec..was able to drop the mob eventually
Again im not sure why people are so desperate to try to find a hidden level system in a game with no levels...do we need levels so badly that we have to surmise there are levels to make us feel more comfortable?
For those convinced theres a level system: what do you consider endgame to be then? the moment you can participate in hardmode dungeons or when you max out all your skills or max out just one role...?
Jesus christ, ITS ***** RPG, there has to be character advancement of some sort: OF COURSE you can't go to a dungeon undergeared, otherwise everything would need be at a constant difficulty level, i.e. being an FPS. But since this is MMORPG, why, for the love of god, are you so surprised? Your character has NO LEVELS, that's what it's being said and that's true. BUT that doesn't mean that there isn't any CHARACTER ADVANCEMENT. OBVIOUSLY.
REALITY CHECK
You beat me too it, I was going to say the same thing.
But I can see how people are calling this levels, because the gear acts just like a leveling system, but not 100% like it. There has to be some kind of artificial barriers, and I dont have a problem at all with this one.
I havent thought of levels at all since playing TSW, and its kinda refreshing.
A progression system is levels.
I disagree, if the game would only have the ability unlocking/progression system but no QL system, it would still have progression but it would not feel like there's levels in the game. The QL system feels like there's concrete levels from 1 to 10, the ability progression has nothing to do with it.
RPG of any shape of form has levels, it may not be so cut and dry that has a number assigned to it, but its still levels. A level-less game is a game like the sims. Developers may do a good job of disguising it, they do may do a bad job of disguising it, but none the less there is a level system. This argument that "insert game" doesnt have levels is an argument of posturing. Its basically fans acting like their turd doesnt stink. For some reason this argument has is some how justifacation that their game is better than other games because it doesnt have levels. Somehow admitting that it has levels is damnation for the game. Its all bogus, all MMORPGS are level based..... somehow, someway someshape. I am not ranting on you kuinn so please dont take it like that, as your response did not come off as arrogant as some posts that I have seen on this topic over the years. Last time I really got into this debate really hard was on FFXIV pre-launch, I was a huge fan, mainly because of XI. Other XIV fans were going around gloating that it wasnt going to have levels, they wore it as a badge, it made me sick reading that garbage. MMO's have levels, progression is levels. If it doesnt have levels I should be able to go into the game on day one and do anything I want, and be equal to anything a guy who has been playing for years can do. Zone based progression, gear based progression, level based progression, it doesnt matter its progression therfore its essentially levels, just not the old fashion cut and dry levels.
I get what you're saying. Progression in any form can (will) be compared to levels more or less. It's just that, concrete "hard" levels does not have to be a rule. I thought the progression would not be so straight forward as in most RPG's, but it pretty much is.
It's not a bad thing, I've gotten used to, and have no problem with that in about any rpg/mmorpg, I just thought the system would be vastly different based on the basic information and by most striking hyping chants heh, and because I believe the system can be vastly different if only someone wants to actually make it so.
It doesn't really matter what you do with it, it's still going to be some form of progression. Developing a character to become something other than what you start with is a baseline mechanic of RPG and the fantasy stories that helped fuel the creation of the games. Even if a game doesn't have any sort of progression mechanics built in (like a Minecraft public server), players will still engage in forms of progression by claiming land or collecting diamonds to sell in a marketplace. It's just a fundamental aspect of the genre. If you play an RPG, you will somehow progress, whether it's with levels, skills, gear or some combination of the three.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So those level dings for AP and SP are not really there. Got ya. Hey guys, you are not dinging a level to get recieve fresh sp or ap to level up your skill level to gain higher quality level gear or further your build.
You are gaining levels. Just because you do not see the level does not mean there aren't any. The game has an extremely flexible leveling system since you can advance your character how you want. But there are still levels just not the 1-85 type more like 1-10 just spread about. :P
BOOYAKA!
A recliner is a chair, but not all chairs are recliners.
Levels are a form of progression system, but not all progression systems are level based.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
This is also a load of tosh. You are hand held from zone to zone, you cant leave the first zone until you've become powerful enough, the game physically blocks you from doing it. I also can't leave the savage coast and go to the blue mountain area even though i've completed more than half the quests in savage coast. It still says im not powerful enough.
So, once again, tired argument or not, the game is still acting like other MMOs in function.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
But this game does have levels. A true levelless system would have you progress by having you learn improved skills through actual content. The Legend of Zelda series is probably the closest rpg game that has a levelless system. You gain power by actually doing content to learn or find things to help progress your character. However, the game was somewhat linear on how you would progress. If TSW had a system like that in game along with freeform exploring, it could be the greatest mmo ever for me. Sadly, it does not do that.
BOOYAKA!
Odd, we were helping a guildie in BM before we even went into savage coast. It didn't tell us we couldn't... we just got our asses handed to us repeatedly....
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Eh, to me a leveling system is something that makes you wait until you have reached a specific point progression wise before you can obtain a specific abilty, enter specific content, etc. And each time you hit that specific point, the stakes for the next point double or tripple. In TSW you do gain XP, but you do not have to wait for some pre-determined progression point to acquire a specific skill or to access specific content.
I mean the way you are presenting it, Zelda can be said to be level based as you cannot acquire said power or things to help you along untill you reach those areas.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
This is also a load of tosh. You are hand held from zone to zone, you cant leave the first zone until you've become powerful enough, the game physically blocks you from doing it. I also can't leave the savage coast and go to the blue mountain area even though i've completed more than half the quests in savage coast. It still says im not powerful enough. So, once again, tired argument or not, the game is still acting like other MMOs in function.
Odd, we were helping a guildie in BM before we even went into savage coast. It didn't tell us we couldn't... we just got our asses handed to us repeatedly....
Just because you can go anywhere you want, doesn't mean you should go anywhere you want. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
True :P
And those freaking Ak'ab are annoying
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
BOOYAKA!
Games have progression of one form or another. It's how you measure your character's progress and development throughout the experience. It's how developers are able to ramp up and diversify the challenges presented to the player over time. It's a core mechanic in many types of games, particularly RPGs.
A character level based system is a type of progression.
A skill-based system is a type of progression.
A QL system is a type of progression.
And so on and so forth.
Every game in the Zelda series has a system of progression through gear. Castlevania games have a system of progression of different types depending on the title. Every game in the Metroid series has a system of progression. Final Fantasy games have a system of progression. Etc. Etc.
So, TSW has a progression system based more around gear QL than traditional character levels or skill levels or any of a variety of other implementations. Great. Wonderful. They've found a somewhat unique, or at least uncommon, way to present progression to players that allows them to diversify and spread out into different builds, to mix-and-match active and passive skills. It's a great system.
So what, exactly, is the problem? I'm an active player and fan of TSW and I'll say it has a form of progression (call it leveling if it makes you feel better) without hesitation, because I simply don't see the problem in it.
Can someone fill me in on what crime has been comitted here, exactly? Why all the debate over something being exactly what it's supposed to be? Are you people that desperate for something to argue about?
I think it's basically every game uses all this marketing speak to say what it has or doesn't. I suppose the issue is this game is as level based as any other, despite the clever marketing.