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A step into the right direction

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  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

    hmm .. i *am* the oldest generation of MMO players. I started BEFORE UO in a precursor of MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar.

    But like you said, this style of game is not for me. I don't have that much time anymore, and games need to be fun right from the start. I don't play games to socialize, and i certainly don't play games for the time sinks.

    I quit EQ after 1 year because it wasn't very good in combat mechanics, and it was horrible in camping/time sinks. Modern mmos fixed all those problems.

    Oh, while i play many MMOs (must have 10 on my laptop right now), they don't monopolize my attention. There are other fun entertainment out there.

    Now this makes a point about you more than anything else, you really aren't a MMORPG player, you are a game player.  (like, an arcade game player)  image

    You like jumping in and out, MMO, single player, probably even a few consoles, (bet you wish you could put a quarter in the slot) image  but the traditional MMORPG player generally sticks with one or two MMORPGs over the long term.

    I think that's the sort of target market the OP is aiming for in his suggestions, and I don't think age has much to do with it, just a matter of what people look for in their gaming.

    Now, back to the OP, trouble with many of the suggestions is they are very broad, and would be interpreted quite differently by various player types.  It's hard to take those concepts and deliver them in a way that appeals to a broad enough group of players.

    Look at your response to his suggestion of a more group oriented game, you point out the latest LFG/Dungeon finder tools and say, "see, plenty of grouping".  Yeah, you guys are all playing together, but you aren't grouping (as in socializing) in the same manner that was done in years past.

    So they may look the same, but they are worlds apart, and therin lies the problem.  You like the tools, I agree they are necessary due to the modern game MMORPG design, but they aren't the same thing at all as what the OP is describing.

    Unfortunately, what the OP also said is no time sinks, he doesn't realize the forced down time in between combat was a vital component of the grouping mechanics back in the day because it gave players time to actually socialize.  When your group might have to wait anywhere from 3 - 10 minutes for power to come back/rez sickness to wear off it gave you a great opportunity to socialize, (or go read, I did a lot of that too, especially on 15 minute horse rides in DAOC) but this isn't something a person like you enjoyed I gather.  

    And you were in the majority, which Developers figured out and started changing MMO's to fit what the larger community wanted.

    Pity.

    Oh well, doesn't really matter what we say here, unless I win the $500M Powerball we're never going to see an old school MMORPG like I would like to see made, so better find the fun where you can.   Fortunately things are looking up a bit with some of the more modern titles.

     

     

     

    The only reason the traditional MMO player stuck with one or two games is because there weren't enough options to play 10 games :-p.

    image
  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716
    Originally posted by Eronakis
     
    So what do you think? Do all or most or even some features instrest you? Should this be the way for mmos? Discuss your thhoughts.
     

    I'm fine with everything you said up until this part (Even if I don't specifically want something myself, they're not crazy requests in general).

    I think MMORPGs... and more to the point, MMOs... can be any way they want to be that is supported by a market for it.

    Other than being massively multiplayer and online, I don't think MMOs should have to hew to any convention, even one that 'makes it better'.

    So no.  I don't think that should be the way for MMOs.

    I don't even think that should be the way for MMORPGs.

    Do I think there should be more MMORPGs released following those criteria?  That's a different question altogether, but I support diversity in gaming.

  • EnphoriaEnphoria Member UncommonPosts: 19
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Here are some key features that I believe would make the "Holy Grail" mmo for the older generation of mmo gamers. That generation consists of gamers who played EQ, UO, AC, DaOC. Now, these features are geared towards a certain niche and won't accomodate all of those games. I am one of those old generation players and would like to see the mmo industry move into a different direction. Now, I am not saying these features for an mmo are only for the older generation gamer, but more so any gamer that is sick of the new model. These features include the first principles of what mmo's should be and who is not looking for instant gratification.

     

     - A community first game. This means grouping content will be rewarded moreso than solo play. Solo content will be available as well. A ratio of about 60 grouping, and 40 percent solo content.
     
    - A game where wisdom and challenge is a factor every time you log in. This does not include time sinks, but moreso strategy of combat, navagation or crafting.
     
    - Top heavy PVE oriented gameplay. Hardcore PVE needs to make a comeback but implemented correctly.
     
    - Realistic graphics, (no towers for shoulder item graphics) a world that has a balance of realism and fantasy.
     
    - A vast seamless world that will captivate you to explore and adventure on a single shard server. Possibly no instances.
     
    - In-depth class design which will immerse you directly into a class. Classes are easy to learn but hard to master.
     
    - There are dozens of ways to play a class, completely up to the player.
     
    - Stats are universal and are not dependent on a set of archetypes.
     
    - Two immense combat mechanics that allow tons of strategy with player adaptability within the fluidity of combat. Combat mechanics complement class design to allow a vast array of many options. Must become a tactician. Can't go into many battles without strategy of some sort. 
     
    - AI that will be very intelligent. For an example, whereas a more militaristic mob will adapt while in combat to your fighting style so you'd always want to be on your toes.
     
    - A death penality that isn't too harsh nor non existent. A death penality that would enhance you to be mor careful on your journeys.
     
    - A main plot line that will twist and turn you and flip you upside down. However, players can directly influence the world and the plot to have different possible climax's and outcomes.
     
    - A player driven economy with separate crafting classes where player can establish their own markets.
     
    - NPC's don't necessarly drop items but materials to make that item. Players get to decide what stats they want to put in different items depending on different variables.
     
    - Raid Campaigns for progressing players and end game content that will immerse you into possible real militaristic medieval strategies.
     
     
    So what do you think? Do all or most or even some features instrest you? Should this be the way for mmos? Discuss your thhoughts.
     

    Love all the ideas. 

    Step towards Fantasy Life Simulation. A good mix on fantasy and realism. Not over extending on high fantasy and not overbearing realism that takes away too much fun. Black Desert online is the closest I've seen to it so far (in terms of what little I've seen) 

    There are Real life simulation games, such as second life and sims. They do perfectly fine, just imitating what you do in real life. 

    I think there would be a good number of people who'd love to see a game that could fit that fantasy life simulation bracket in the MMORPG scene. The MMORPG games that are re-dos and clones and niches and focused on straight up max your level and gear grind are far too many if you ask me. 

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
    Originally posted by Enphoria

    Love all the ideas. 

    Step towards Fantasy Life Simulation. A good mix on fantasy and realism. Not over extending on high fantasy and not overbearing realism that takes away too much fun. Black Desert online is the closest I've seen to it so far (in terms of what little I've seen) 

    There are Real life simulation games, such as second life and sims. They do perfectly fine, just imitating what you do in real life. 

    I think there would be a good number of people who'd love to see a game that could fit that fantasy life simulation bracket in the MMORPG scene. The MMORPG games that are re-dos and clones and niches and focused on straight up max your level and gear grind are far too many if you ask me. 

    I wouldn't say the idea is to be a simulation of medieval fantasy but rather an immersive experience that makes you more connected to the game world than what most mmo titles do today. When I played EQ, I felt super immersed into the world. I felt like it was a living dangerous world. Even though there was zoning, zone barriers and bad graphics. Glad you like the ideas.

     

    I don't expect everyone to like these ideas because these are niche ideas. I don't believe having WoW subscription numbers would make this style of game successful or not.

     

    Also, I was considering of building a website to put my mmos ideas out there and just see what kind of reception I would get. Not sure if I will just a thought. I don't mean posting them on kick starter because I don't have a demo to show.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    Originally posted by Eronakis

     - A community first game. This means grouping content will be rewarded moreso than solo play. Solo content will be available as well. A ratio of about 60 grouping, and 40 percent solo content.

    Group contents vs solo able contents are little wrong here.

    The right concept is about Hard contents (encourage group) vs Easy contents (solo able) .

    Of course hard contents must give out more rewards than easy one.

     
    - A game where wisdom and challenge is a factor every time you log in. This does not include time sinks, but moreso strategy of combat, navagation or crafting.
    Best ways to create challenge are puzzle .
    Combat or crafting or explore are just part to solve the puzzle to get the reward .
     
     
    There are few of my though
     
     
  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    High level concepts are basically worthless without the specifics. Anyone can conceptualize, but the implementation is the hard part. A certain comic strip comes to mind:

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Best ways to create challenge are puzzle .
    Combat or crafting or explore are just part to solve the puzzle to get the reward .
     
     
    There are few of my though
     
     

    Puzzles are great .. but i don't play MMOs for puzzles .. that is what adventure games are for.

    MMO games are just co-op or pvp combat games.

     

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Best ways to create challenge are puzzle .
    Combat or crafting or explore are just part to solve the puzzle to get the reward .
     
     
    There are few of my though
     
     

    Puzzles are great .. but i don't play MMOs for puzzles .. that is what adventure games are for.

    MMO games are just co-op or pvp combat games.

     

    fine , but you forget that co-op or combat are also type of puzzle , math of how to take down enemy.

    lol , it kind of ironic when you said you don't play for puzzles but you do the puzzles all of time .

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413

    Not interested...because in the rush to put all these features in, what got left out is the thing that draws me to MMOs, and what keeps them together over time:

    Roleplay.

    How are you going to promote, support or foster that?

    __________________________
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  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    High level concepts are basically worthless without the specifics. Anyone can conceptualize, but the implementation is the hard part. A certain comic strip comes to mind:

    Of course. If I was a Game Design Lead I would be pitching my mmo ideas. But I am not, just a guy who has confident ideas that could potentially work. I made this thread before ever knowing about EQN. It seems on some things I am on the same wave length as some of game design elements EQN will provide.

    I could make a thread regarding the specifics, but it won't get enough attention in the pub. It will go in the dev corner where not many roam unfortunately. I have somewhat posted my ideas here in the past.

    If you're interested in the specifics of any of these game design element's I may be able to share...let me know...

    By the way I did take off a few years of designing these concepts. I am with a new fresh look now. Looking at it how I can bring the design and mechanics into a more cohesive form.

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    Not interested...because in the rush to put all these features in, what got left out is the thing that draws me to MMOs, and what keeps them together over time:

    Roleplay.

    How are you going to promote, support or foster that?

    Sorry I didn't have roleplay stick out. I kind of intended it where everyone would at least roleplay a little to some certain extent when I mentioned that when you log in you're immersed into a world. I was hoping that would be hinted from that. I am not against roleplay at all. I think most roleplay communities in mmo's are very mature and respectful that bring a lot to the table of the world it self. Ideally, based on my thinking of this the roleplayers will know the lore of the world and know how to act. Every character is apart of the world. The roleplayers may be the ones who will be leading the world into a direction.

    The above doesn't mean one has to roleplay in order to be immersed or have fun or influence the world. It's just that usually roleplayers have the upper hand..

    I also didn't rush this list. This is a generalized list that is to show a cohesive flow of the game design that I believe would be a potential "holy grail" mmo...

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

    I'm one of those old school gamers and I wouldn't care about most of the features you list.  In the 15 years I've been playing MMOs, my interests have changed.  Most people grow up and that's why there are no old school games, the vast majority of old school gamers have either moved on or don't want the same kind of games they played long ago.  You're an anachronism. 

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by iixviiiix
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Best ways to create challenge are puzzle .
    Combat or crafting or explore are just part to solve the puzzle to get the reward .
     
     
    There are few of my though
     
     

    Puzzles are great .. but i don't play MMOs for puzzles .. that is what adventure games are for.

    MMO games are just co-op or pvp combat games.

     

    fine , but you forget that co-op or combat are also type of puzzle , math of how to take down enemy.

    lol , it kind of ironic when you said you don't play for puzzles but you do the puzzles all of time .

    Optimizing dps (and other aspects of combat effectiveness)  is not a "puzzle" to me .. it is another kind of problem, and I do like that.

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

    I'm one of those old school gamers and I wouldn't care about most of the features you list.  In the 15 years I've been playing MMOs, my interests have changed.  Most people grow up and that's why there are no old school games, the vast majority of old school gamers have either moved on or don't want the same kind of games they played long ago.  You're an anachronism. 

    Thinks do change yes. I would say that the mechanics listed have nothing to do with an old school game. What it does have in common in an old school mmo, is the principle of design elements. Such as a well rounded community, a sense of adventure and challenge. That's fine if you don't want that now. Doesn't mean others who have played old school mmos would like something like this.

     

    This type of mmo would cater to a niche crowd and would be a "holy grail" for them. That's fine. If it's successful for that niche then it works.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

    I'm one of those old school gamers and I wouldn't care about most of the features you list.  In the 15 years I've been playing MMOs, my interests have changed.  Most people grow up and that's why there are no old school games, the vast majority of old school gamers have either moved on or don't want the same kind of games they played long ago.  You're an anachronism. 

    Exactly. I played the beta of UO, EQ, and so i am an old timer, but today, if a game is not fun from the first 15 min ... i will pass.

    Games are just entertainment .. and so entertained me, i have more important things to do than to "live in a game".

     

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,619
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

    I'm one of those old school gamers and I wouldn't care about most of the features you list.  In the 15 years I've been playing MMOs, my interests have changed.  Most people grow up and that's why there are no old school games, the vast majority of old school gamers have either moved on or don't want the same kind of games they played long ago.  You're an anachronism. 

    Exactly. I played the beta of UO, EQ, and so i am an old timer, but today, if a game is not fun from the first 15 min ... i will pass.

    Games are just entertainment .. and so entertained me, i have more important things to do than to "live in a game".

     

    ...and that is fine and dandy, those that have seen your other posts/threads know you do not wish to "socialize" and want instant gratification, this thread however is not about that type of game so go be entertained in another game/thread, you have made it abundantly clear this type game isn't for you and not your kind of game. 

     

    There is no need to try and hijack this thread, you do not speak for your peers only for yourself so stop trying to tell us what we want as this thread and many others clearly show not everyone is of the same mind as you and there IS a want for this kind of game.

     

    Express yourself and please move on so those that this thread actually targets can have a civil discussion without going off track or going down in flames.

    Please show some grace already.

     

    Back on track I am looking for a game with features like the OP mentions, seems pretty spot on too me!

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Eronakis

    Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

    I'm one of those old school gamers and I wouldn't care about most of the features you list.  In the 15 years I've been playing MMOs, my interests have changed.  Most people grow up and that's why there are no old school games, the vast majority of old school gamers have either moved on or don't want the same kind of games they played long ago.  You're an anachronism. 

    Exactly. I played the beta of UO, EQ, and so i am an old timer, but today, if a game is not fun from the first 15 min ... i will pass.

    Games are just entertainment .. and so entertained me, i have more important things to do than to "live in a game".

     

    ...and that is fine and dandy, those that have seen your other posts/threads know you do not wish to "socialize" and want instant gratification, this thread however is not about that type of game so go be entertained in another game/thread, you have made it abundantly clear this type game isn't for you and not your kind of game. 

     

    There is no need to try and hijack this thread, you do not speak for your peers only for yourself so stop trying to tell us what we want as this thread and many others clearly show not everyone is of the same mind as you and there IS a want for this kind of game.

     

    Express yourself and please move on so those that this thread actually targets can have a civil discussion without going off track or going down in flames.

    Please show some grace already.

     

    Back on track I am looking for a game with features like the OP mentions, seems pretty spot on too me!

    QFT sir. He obviously has time to hijack threads. Now it's time to rail this train back on course! Hopefully...

    What are some of the things listed that stand out more than others to you? What else would you add to the list?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    There is no need to try and hijack this thread, you do not speak for your peers only for yourself so stop trying to tell us what we want as this thread and many others clearly show not everyone is of the same mind as you and there IS a want for this kind of game.

     

    Responding to another who has the same preference is "hijacking" the thread? People state different preferences in every thread, it is not like I am the only one doing it. Don't tell me no one disagree with the OP in other threads.

    And did i ever say i speak for anyone else but myself? Read my post carefully.

    I have no doubt there is some desire for this kind of game for some (at least the OP), but is there a big enough demand? Isn't that an interesting question?

  • PigozzPigozz Member UncommonPosts: 886

    You just described BLACK DESERT

    Like srsly every feature (except smart AI) you listed is in it and more

    You should check it out

    I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    There is no need to try and hijack this thread, you do not speak for your peers only for yourself so stop trying to tell us what we want as this thread and many others clearly show not everyone is of the same mind as you and there IS a want for this kind of game.

     

    Responding to another who has the same preference is "hijacking" the thread? People state different preferences in every thread, it is not like I am the only one doing it. Don't tell me no one disagree with the OP in other threads.

    And did i ever say i speak for anyone else but myself? Read my post carefully.

    I have no doubt there is some desire for this kind of game for some (at least the OP), but is there a big enough demand? Isn't that an interesting question?

    Absolutely there is a big enough demand for this. The genre started to cater to the instant gratification crowd when Blizzard decided to take that route. Blizzard brought in gamers from different genres to play wow. Most wow players never played an mmo before. It's not their fault they don't know any better or any different styles of mmos. I bet this style of game could probably attract 100k members. A 100k subs would be successful in my opinion. You're only as successful as your goal is. I think 100k would be a reasonable number that this type of game could generate.

     

    If intriguing enough by lore, combat mechanics, class design, crafting, end game content, graphics and over all fun then whose to say that some people who never even considered this game play route to actually enjoy it? This type of game design doesn't have to rival blizzards numbers to be successful.

  • AmanaAmana Moderator UncommonPosts: 3,912
    This is a two-year old thread. Locking it.

    To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com

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