Blizzard was flush with cash that they never expected to have. I'll admit, they have parlayed that extra money into a very impressive game, but that just proves they're a decent company, not that they've done anything special.
The fact is, the MMO marketplace is far smaller than most people want to admit. The 12 million people playing WoW aren't playing it because it's an MMO, they're playing it because it's WoW. When they leave WoW, chances are they're going to Farmville or Minecraft, not the next MMO. I keep seeing developers wanting a chunk of that WoW pie and most of those people couldn't care less about another MMO. Once they're tired of WoW, they're going to go do something else entirely. The number of people who play MMOs, just because they are MMOs, is probably under 5 million, if that. With tons of games available, fighting for that very small number of players, it's no wonder most fail.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
Blizzard was flush with cash that they never expected to have. I'll admit, they have parlayed that extra money into a very impressive game, but that just proves they're a decent company, not that they've done anything special.
The fact is, the MMO marketplace is far smaller than most people want to admit. The 12 million people playing WoW aren't playing it because it's an MMO, they're playing it because it's WoW. When they leave WoW, chances are they're going to Farmville or Minecraft, not the next MMO. I keep seeing developers wanting a chunk of that WoW pie and most of those people couldn't care less about another MMO. Once they're tired of WoW, they're going to go do something else entirely. The number of people who play MMOs, just because they are MMOs, is probably under 5 million, if that. With tons of games available, fighting for that very small number of players, it's no wonder most fail.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
Actually, I wrote that, not Palebane.
And Blizzard has not made any other MMOs besides WoW so it's impossible to say that other MMOs they've made have been hits, there aren't any others yet. I will agree with you that MMOs are competing with all other forms of entertainment which is sort of the point I was making. Far too many MMO advocates assume that the people who play MMOs are always giong to play MMOs because they're all supposed to love MMOs. That's just not the case. I just made up the 5 million number because there really isn't any way to know how many people are dedicated MMO players and how many are just playing because they found a single game, in the right place at the right time, to play for a while before they move on.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
Cause the core, challenge , functionality, and features of MMORPGs have been mostly stripped away to the bare bones where you can't even call it a MMORPG anymore, dumbed down, watered down, to the lowest common denominator, as much as I hate to say the term... casuals have ruined gaming in general .
A casual gamer is what its title says. They don’t necessarily play that many video games but tend to have a big library of games. This breed of gamers plays just because they can; a casual gamer doesn’t have standards and typically play whatever is popular. There are more casual gamers than hardcore gamers in the modern world today. The birth of casual gamers has made developers simply stop caring about the content of MMORPG and video games in general.
It does not stop there. The lack of standards and appreciation for MMORPGs and video games spawned from casual gamers has given developers the idea that “Well if it has our name on it, then it doesn’t matter if the game is mediocre (WoW) and lacks any form of originality (every single WoW clone ).” This has now made MMORPGs and video gamesless than enjoyable that can have a great idea, but lack in the execution it needs to be a great game.
What MMORPG actually that has depth or originality? , or even challenging?, it is nothing but a constant stream of reach cap, raid , or fight in warzones, everything that was fluff or noncombat related was stripped away to loot slot machines and people wonder why who are new to gaming and MMOs see why older gamers and veterans of MMOs try point out whats wrong with the picture but you refuse to see it as do many causals.
Blizzard was flush with cash that they never expected to have. I'll admit, they have parlayed that extra money into a very impressive game, but that just proves they're a decent company, not that they've done anything special.
The fact is, the MMO marketplace is far smaller than most people want to admit. The 12 million people playing WoW aren't playing it because it's an MMO, they're playing it because it's WoW. When they leave WoW, chances are they're going to Farmville or Minecraft, not the next MMO. I keep seeing developers wanting a chunk of that WoW pie and most of those people couldn't care less about another MMO. Once they're tired of WoW, they're going to go do something else entirely. The number of people who play MMOs, just because they are MMOs, is probably under 5 million, if that. With tons of games available, fighting for that very small number of players, it's no wonder most fail.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
Actually, I wrote that, not Palebane.
And Blizzard has not made any other MMOs besides WoW so it's impossible to say that other MMOs they've made have been hits, there aren't any others yet. I will agree with you that MMOs are competing with all other forms of entertainment which is sort of the point I was making. Far too many MMO advocates assume that the people who play MMOs are always giong to play MMOs because they're all supposed to love MMOs. That's just not the case. I just made up the 5 million number because there really isn't any way to know how many people are dedicated MMO players and how many are just playing because they found a single game, in the right place at the right time, to play for a while before they move on.
Oh, i am NOT talking about MMOs. Blizz makes good games .. RTS, ARPG, MMO. They have multiple entries in all categories but MMOs (which obviously only have 1). The point is .. the company is prettty special in producing hit game after hit game.
Yes, i am supporting your point in that MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment.
Blizzard was flush with cash that they never expected to have. I'll admit, they have parlayed that extra money into a very impressive game, but that just proves they're a decent company, not that they've done anything special.
The fact is, the MMO marketplace is far smaller than most people want to admit. The 12 million people playing WoW aren't playing it because it's an MMO, they're playing it because it's WoW. When they leave WoW, chances are they're going to Farmville or Minecraft, not the next MMO. I keep seeing developers wanting a chunk of that WoW pie and most of those people couldn't care less about another MMO. Once they're tired of WoW, they're going to go do something else entirely. The number of people who play MMOs, just because they are MMOs, is probably under 5 million, if that. With tons of games available, fighting for that very small number of players, it's no wonder most fail.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
There are other forms of entertainment besides MMO's?
Oh yeah, that's all that sh!t my wife keeps dragging me away from my computer to go do, things called "movies", "dinner out", "vacations", and some of the most horrific, "craft festivals".
I mean, sometimes I can wrangle a good gun show, but the rest of it, bleh!
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is kinda WoW's fault too. Wow showed big gaming companies that MMOs COULD make tons of money. So when a guy with an idea for a game comes to ask for money from a financeer, the financeer says "I like your idea, but make it more like WoW since that is a proven model" If a dev does actually get financing to make a game his way then he has to go to publishing companies. These are the guys that make sure it gets to the store shelves and onto Steam or other DL sites. They also force their ways onto devs as well.
Im not disagreeing with your post at all, just wanted to point out that steam is very very indie friendly. While they dont publiclly disclose royalty and fees, its obviously low enough to allow indie devs to list their game on steam for $5-$10.
But yes, the suits are interested in winning their lottery for the quarter, and this has had a negative impact on the genre and industry as a whole.
I seem to be the antithesis of every "why MMO vets always long for older MMOs" stereotype.
1. Their first MMO is always "the best" and the one they base everything else on after that.
Not for me. My favorite all-time MMO was FFXI; it's the one that kept me hooked the longest. But it wasn't the first one I played. I played Anarchy Online, Shadowbane and Asheron's Call 2 prior to trying FFXI, which came out roughly a year later. Anarchy Online was "officially" my first MMO, and I greatly enjoyed it and still think it's a great game. But it was not "the one game I compare everything against".
2. "Nostalgia Goggles" - only remembering the good while ignoring or "glossing over" the negatives
Not true for me at all. I remember every single negative experience I had in my time playing FFXI. I can recount them to you in detail. I remember logging out swearing I was "done with the game" I was so flustered a few times - usually to do with other players. Of course it was just a matter of letting myself cool off and I was right back to it. Truth is, the positives outweighed the negatives by a long shot. Negatives existed, they just weren't enough to ruin the overall experience for me. If I could go back to day 1 that I started playing XI, knowing all it would entail for the next 7 years, I would do it in a heartbeat.
For me there simply hasn't been the sense of community, the sense of wonder, fear and mystery that those older MMOs had. Even AC2, Shadowbane and AO had it in their own way. Older MMOs were designed to be "world", not merely "games". I say this without condescension, but if you weren't around to experience the community or how different it is to participate in a true virtual world, then it's really difficult to explain it. You literally "had to be there".
Back then, people weren't afraid to be challenged. They didn't set expectations how how much they would progress in a single session. They didn't worry about what level cap was, how fast they could reach it, and how much there was to do when they got there. They were too busy enjoying the game they were playing "right now" - community and that sense of wonder/fear/mystery I mentioned played a lot into that. The world provided enough to keep people engaged that "getting to end-game" was some kind of abstraction. If you said "MMOs are all about end game" back then, many would have thought you were nuts.
Today's MMOs not only fail to capture the essence of those older MMOs, they aren't even trying anymore. Some capture a glimmer of it. None have nailed it, though. The closest I've seen it come recently is Secret World. It nails it in a number of aspects. The community aspect isn't quite there, yet. Hopefully we can get it there, though.
Blizzard was flush with cash that they never expected to have. I'll admit, they have parlayed that extra money into a very impressive game, but that just proves they're a decent company, not that they've done anything special.
The fact is, the MMO marketplace is far smaller than most people want to admit. The 12 million people playing WoW aren't playing it because it's an MMO, they're playing it because it's WoW. When they leave WoW, chances are they're going to Farmville or Minecraft, not the next MMO. I keep seeing developers wanting a chunk of that WoW pie and most of those people couldn't care less about another MMO. Once they're tired of WoW, they're going to go do something else entirely. The number of people who play MMOs, just because they are MMOs, is probably under 5 million, if that. With tons of games available, fighting for that very small number of players, it's no wonder most fail.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
There are other forms of entertainment besides MMO's?
Oh yeah, that's all that sh!t my wife keeps dragging me away from my computer to go do, things called "movies", "dinner out", "vacations", and some of the most horrific, "craft festivals".
I mean, sometimes I can wrangle a good gun show, but the rest of it, bleh!
You need to get out more and find a life.
You know, there are things called "books" that are fun to read once in a while.
There are things called "movies" that are fun to watch.
Heck, there are OTHER video games. I will prefer to play Dead Space more than most MMOs.
Well before WoW there were quite a few MMO's that all seemed very different from eachother, there was innovation in the genre and every time you played a new one it was something almost completely different, mine was conquer. Then WoW came out, and it was huge, exploding the genre 10fold (not a wow fanboy, in fact i hate the game, it's just what happened.) And that was fine as it brought certain features to the genre that hadn't been there before... The problem lies in the 7 years after where (it seems) 90% of every MMO coming out was a direct ripoff of wow in some way, leaving very little room for innovation in the genre which has made it very stale.
I mostly just miss the brutality of classic MMO's like UO, DAoC, Conquer, etc due to the way the pvp systems used to work. MMO's just feel cloned and a bit too carebearish nowadays.
However I do believe we might be looking at a whole new golden age with MMO's that are soon to come, Innovation is something that developers are finally realizing is extremely necessary, took em long enough but I guess they finally caught on. Some of them are still doing it wrong with good intensions by looking for one big area to innovate in but kind of leaving everything else as bland as any other mmo in 7 years.
Examples would be:
SWTOR - Story
Tera - Combat
Rift - PvE events
WAR - Great mass PvP ideas (though it sounded better on paper)
ArchAge - Freedom
etc..
Now if we look at all these games, we'll find that for the most part each of this games excel in their respective areas quite well. That's great, and a step in the right direction, However if you take a look at the rest of the features in each of these games you'll find that there isn't much different about them then many other games published prior to them.
But there is hope. What if we could take all of these best features and much much more, polish everything, and put them into one game, an MMO that innovates in practically every department of the genre? Or do something else entirely? MMO's like these are coming, and I think they're going to spark this genre up completely.
For me I have found GW2. Even though I've only played it for a maximum of 6 days I have tried and tested everything I could about it, Somehow it has met and surpassed every single expectation I had for it from months and months of researching it... It is, at least for me, The perfect MMO filled with great potential of an entirely new golden age.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months. Why is it still such a big deal?
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
MMORPGs have been stripped of what defined the genre
I can still walk into a town in any mmo and see hundreds of other players, thus the defining trait is still in tact.
Playing Nothing waiting for The secret world Played WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
MMORPGs have been stripped of what defined the genre
I can still walk into a town in any mmo and see hundreds of other players, thus the defining trait is still in tact.
Actually from a descriptive point you are right,however a true Mmo actually makes you group with other players and interact in a social atmosphere.One of the primary reason older games were difficult was to create a playerbase that relied on each other for support,something that doesnt happen very often anymore in newer mmos.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
MMORPGs have been stripped of what defined the genre
I can still walk into a town in any mmo and see hundreds of other players, thus the defining trait is still in tact.
Actually from a descriptive point you are right,however a true Mmo actually makes you group with other players and interact in a social atmosphere.One of the primary reason older games were difficult was to create a playerbase that relied on each other for support,something that doesnt happen very often anymore in newer mmos.
"True" MMO? Who decide that? You?
And why would i want to "relied on each other for support"? I would much prefer to go into a game, push a LFD button, and get into a group. Online games are NOT AA meetings.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
MMORPGs have been stripped of what defined the genre
I can still walk into a town in any mmo and see hundreds of other players, thus the defining trait is still in tact.
Actually from a descriptive point you are right,however a true Mmo actually makes you group with other players and interact in a social atmosphere.One of the primary reason older games were difficult was to create a playerbase that relied on each other for support,something that doesnt happen very often anymore in newer mmos.
"True" MMO? Who decide that? You?
And why would i want to "relied on each other for support"? I would much prefer to go into a game, push a LFD button, and get into a group. Online games are NOT AA meetings.
exactly. IF I choose to meet, and make friends with people over a game, thats cool, thats all well and good, good for me for trying. HOWEVER. if I want to just PLAY THE FREGGIN' GAME I PAID FOR, I should be able to, whenever I want, however I want if it doesn't impeed on other players doing what they want.
Playing Nothing waiting for The secret world Played WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
That depends, do u like cooking interesting food that might turn out a number of ways or having food cooked for you by a cook that makes ok food that tastes a lot like everyone elses.
I like kraft mac and cheese with crushed potatoe chips and freshly fried bits of bacon in it.
Some of the older mmo's were better than 99% of the mass produced cookie cutter mmo's of today. That's just how it is. Sure there's some nostalgia, however the entire mmo template has modernized to a point where alot of vets are disatisfied by the current state of mmo's.
Easy answer to that question. It is nostalgia for the challenge and freedom the old games provided us. There actually was a challenge to gameplay, not this ridiculous handholding that is provided today.
Particularly doing slow work days before i can go home and kill some stuff in Diablo 3.
I would prefer to peel 1 kg of onions than to play D3 for 1 hour tbh
And if more games like Diablo 3 are made, i don't have to play MMORPGs.
Your hopes are coming true. There is PoE, Torchlight 2 and GrimDawn coming.
Not to mention more online focused Marvel Heroes and LineAge: Eternal.
You will have plenty of Diablo 3 like games to play.
I would even say most of them seem that might be far better than D3.
----------
Anyway - I think that's what is root of a "issue".
Current mmorpg playerbase consist of people that want very diffrent thigns. Things that frequently exclude themself.
I really hope more games like MOBA's or other lobby are made for people that play mmorpg's mostly or purely for arenas.
I hope more h&s games are made for players that want mostly to slash mobs and don't like other things.
I hope more games like DDO, Vindictus or other COPRG's heavy-instanced games are made for those people that play mmorpg's almost purely for doing instances over and over.
I hope that for remaining mmorpg population some of future mmorpg's will be more mmo and rpg in their design and less lobby.
More games like that mean smaller mmorpg playerbase. That's unfortunate, but it cannot be avoided. After all big boom for mmorpg's when WoW and few other games came was because many gamers started to play it - gamers that could not care less about mmo, virtual world, crafting, economy, exploring,politics and that side of things.
That people that will stay in mmorpg's genre will want more complete mmorpg experience. Of course that mean less titles and smaller budgets, but overall that will be better.
I think for the most part it's simply a matter of what "MMORPG" means to you. Vets that played before 2004 and someone that just started 2 years ago would have very different definitions and associations for "MMORPG". Those definitions can and have been argued at great length, but it's apples and oranges. The two groups at best will have to agree to disagree.
What you have been playing for the past couple of years is very different from what I played in 2000, which defined the genre for both of us. I could claim that my definition is correct simply because it was there first but I would never be so dismissive of someone elses views, all I ask is that you do the same. I dislike being told that it's simply rose-colored glasses or nostalgia. I find the equivelant of that as saying you're too stupid/impatient to understand the complexities of older games.
Instead, both gamers should try to listen to the other. There were some really great things about those old games that, if you gave it a try, might enjoy immensely and vice-versa. Don't be so dismissive simply because you weren't there for it. Doing that hurts the genre as a whole. It's clear the genre is having some identity issues and that can't really be solved until the people playing them decide what it is exactly they're looking for.
Particularly doing slow work days before i can go home and kill some stuff in Diablo 3.
I would prefer to peel 1 kg of onions than to play D3 for 1 hour tbh
And if more games like Diablo 3 are made, i don't have to play MMORPGs.
Your hopes are coming true. There is PoE, Torchlight 2 and GrimDawn coming.
Not to mention more online focused Marvel Heroes and LineAge: Eternal.
You will have plenty of Diablo 3 like games to play.
I would even say most of them seem that might be far better than D3.
I know. I am watching all 4 of those (PoE, TL2, GD & MH). I don't know much about LineAge: Eternal but probably will find out more.
PoE skills look horrible though. All those 1 point here, and 1 point there skill tree. I would much prefer customization like D3's skill rune that actually does something different.
And obviously there will be D3 expansion too. Life is good.
It is hard to explain to someone how good the old MMO’s were, you had to be there to see it and other posters have tried there best to explain.
What I would say to the OP is, you have been gaming for two years, gameplay is changing at such a fast pace now you should be at least able to spot that. Look at how people talk about dumbing down in everything from CoD to ME, how sequels like DA2 are rubbish? This points to both the dumbing down effect and the replacement of designer driven games with corporate driven games.
So you don’t have to have been there to see the negatives that are happening now, project back an extra ten years and that may give you an idea of how much we have lost.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Palebane Blizzard was flush with cash that they never expected to have. I'll admit, they have parlayed that extra money into a very impressive game, but that just proves they're a decent company, not that they've done anything special.The fact is, the MMO marketplace is far smaller than most people want to admit. The 12 million people playing WoW aren't playing it because it's an MMO, they're playing it because it's WoW. When they leave WoW, chances are they're going to Farmville or Minecraft, not the next MMO. I keep seeing developers wanting a chunk of that WoW pie and most of those people couldn't care less about another MMO. Once they're tired of WoW, they're going to go do something else entirely. The number of people who play MMOs, just because they are MMOs, is probably under 5 million, if that. With tons of games available, fighting for that very small number of players, it's no wonder most fail.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
There are other forms of entertainment besides MMO's?
Oh yeah, that's all that sh!t my wife keeps dragging me away from my computer to go do, things called "movies", "dinner out", "vacations", and some of the most horrific, "craft festivals".
I mean, sometimes I can wrangle a good gun show, but the rest of it, bleh!
You need to get out more and find a life.
You know, there are things called "books" that are fun to read once in a while.
There are things called "movies" that are fun to watch.
Heck, there are OTHER video games. I will prefer to play Dead Space more than most MMOs.
But books require me to use my imagination. Thats too much work, fk that noise. I want everything spoon fed to me.
"I'm so disappointed with today's MMOs. Why can't they release something like those in the golden age of MMOs like UO?" and many others like this.
I just started playing MMORPGs two years ago so I'm definitely not a veteran in the genre. I'm just wondering, are those games in the "golden age" really that great or are these people just intoxicated by the feeling of nostalgia, and/or the good feeling provided by their very first MMO experience which can never be replicated no matter what developers do?
I've started playing MMOs with World Of Warcraft and in my opinion the current gen of MMOs (WoW included) is taking a dive, quick.
This isn't that I want vanilla WoW back, I don't want UO back either.
I want a "modern" MMO, one that iterates upon the design. There are a few out there or coming soon that do some tiny steps in that direction, but you have to understand, up till this year, there was little to no change in the design of MMOs from 2005.
I mean even if you look at one of the more hyped releases like Planetside 2, its barely different from PS1 (bar graphics of course).
The only thing why it is getting so much attention is that PS1 was forgotten in the depths of the internet, so you could sell the same thing again to a new audience, just with more modern flash and explosions (disclosure: I will be playing it, its still a great game).
The golden age was good, in fact, it was superb, because the development wasn't entirely business-focused. Games had heart. Even vanilla WoW had a kind of heart in it.
The games of the golden age were amazing for their time, and nobody really judges them on modern standards, the same way we don't judge Ultima IV with modern standards.
What we are asking for is a reinvention and diversification of the "genre", because playing the same shit for 7+ years does get tiring and our "golden age" games are starting to look more and more like fucking masterpieces.
I upgraded my gfx card recently, to finally play AssCreed Revelations. I got home, installed it, played for an hour and reinstalled System Shock instead, because I'm sick and tired of the same game being released every year with minor gimmicks.
Blizzard was flush with cash that they never expected to have. I'll admit, they have parlayed that extra money into a very impressive game, but that just proves they're a decent company, not that they've done anything special.
The fact is, the MMO marketplace is far smaller than most people want to admit. The 12 million people playing WoW aren't playing it because it's an MMO, they're playing it because it's WoW. When they leave WoW, chances are they're going to Farmville or Minecraft, not the next MMO. I keep seeing developers wanting a chunk of that WoW pie and most of those people couldn't care less about another MMO. Once they're tired of WoW, they're going to go do something else entirely. The number of people who play MMOs, just because they are MMOs, is probably under 5 million, if that. With tons of games available, fighting for that very small number of players, it's no wonder most fail.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
There are other forms of entertainment besides MMO's?
Oh yeah, that's all that sh!t my wife keeps dragging me away from my computer to go do, things called "movies", "dinner out", "vacations", and some of the most horrific, "craft festivals".
I mean, sometimes I can wrangle a good gun show, but the rest of it, bleh!
You need to get out more and find a life.
You know, there are things called "books" that are fun to read once in a while.
There are things called "movies" that are fun to watch.
Heck, there are OTHER video games. I will prefer to play Dead Space more than most MMOs.
But books require me to use my imagination. Thats too much work, fk that noise. I want everything spoon fed to me.
Comments
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
Actually, I wrote that, not Palebane.
And Blizzard has not made any other MMOs besides WoW so it's impossible to say that other MMOs they've made have been hits, there aren't any others yet. I will agree with you that MMOs are competing with all other forms of entertainment which is sort of the point I was making. Far too many MMO advocates assume that the people who play MMOs are always giong to play MMOs because they're all supposed to love MMOs. That's just not the case. I just made up the 5 million number because there really isn't any way to know how many people are dedicated MMO players and how many are just playing because they found a single game, in the right place at the right time, to play for a while before they move on.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Cause the core, challenge , functionality, and features of MMORPGs have been mostly stripped away to the bare bones where you can't even call it a MMORPG anymore, dumbed down, watered down, to the lowest common denominator, as much as I hate to say the term... casuals have ruined gaming in general .
A casual gamer is what its title says. They don’t necessarily play that many video games but tend to have a big library of games. This breed of gamers plays just because they can; a casual gamer doesn’t have standards and typically play whatever is popular. There are more casual gamers than hardcore gamers in the modern world today. The birth of casual gamers has made developers simply stop caring about the content of MMORPG and video games in general.
It does not stop there. The lack of standards and appreciation for MMORPGs and video games spawned from casual gamers has given developers the idea that “Well if it has our name on it, then it doesn’t matter if the game is mediocre (WoW) and lacks any form of originality (every single WoW clone ).” This has now made MMORPGs and video gamesless than enjoyable that can have a great idea, but lack in the execution it needs to be a great game.
What MMORPG actually that has depth or originality? , or even challenging?, it is nothing but a constant stream of reach cap, raid , or fight in warzones, everything that was fluff or noncombat related was stripped away to loot slot machines and people wonder why who are new to gaming and MMOs see why older gamers and veterans of MMOs try point out whats wrong with the picture but you refuse to see it as do many causals.
Oh, i am NOT talking about MMOs. Blizz makes good games .. RTS, ARPG, MMO. They have multiple entries in all categories but MMOs (which obviously only have 1). The point is .. the company is prettty special in producing hit game after hit game.
Yes, i am supporting your point in that MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment.
There are other forms of entertainment besides MMO's?
Oh yeah, that's all that sh!t my wife keeps dragging me away from my computer to go do, things called "movies", "dinner out", "vacations", and some of the most horrific, "craft festivals".
I mean, sometimes I can wrangle a good gun show, but the rest of it, bleh!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Im not disagreeing with your post at all, just wanted to point out that steam is very very indie friendly. While they dont publiclly disclose royalty and fees, its obviously low enough to allow indie devs to list their game on steam for $5-$10.
But yes, the suits are interested in winning their lottery for the quarter, and this has had a negative impact on the genre and industry as a whole.
I seem to be the antithesis of every "why MMO vets always long for older MMOs" stereotype.
1. Their first MMO is always "the best" and the one they base everything else on after that.
Not for me. My favorite all-time MMO was FFXI; it's the one that kept me hooked the longest. But it wasn't the first one I played. I played Anarchy Online, Shadowbane and Asheron's Call 2 prior to trying FFXI, which came out roughly a year later. Anarchy Online was "officially" my first MMO, and I greatly enjoyed it and still think it's a great game. But it was not "the one game I compare everything against".
2. "Nostalgia Goggles" - only remembering the good while ignoring or "glossing over" the negatives
Not true for me at all. I remember every single negative experience I had in my time playing FFXI. I can recount them to you in detail. I remember logging out swearing I was "done with the game" I was so flustered a few times - usually to do with other players. Of course it was just a matter of letting myself cool off and I was right back to it. Truth is, the positives outweighed the negatives by a long shot. Negatives existed, they just weren't enough to ruin the overall experience for me. If I could go back to day 1 that I started playing XI, knowing all it would entail for the next 7 years, I would do it in a heartbeat.
For me there simply hasn't been the sense of community, the sense of wonder, fear and mystery that those older MMOs had. Even AC2, Shadowbane and AO had it in their own way. Older MMOs were designed to be "world", not merely "games". I say this without condescension, but if you weren't around to experience the community or how different it is to participate in a true virtual world, then it's really difficult to explain it. You literally "had to be there".
Back then, people weren't afraid to be challenged. They didn't set expectations how how much they would progress in a single session. They didn't worry about what level cap was, how fast they could reach it, and how much there was to do when they got there. They were too busy enjoying the game they were playing "right now" - community and that sense of wonder/fear/mystery I mentioned played a lot into that. The world provided enough to keep people engaged that "getting to end-game" was some kind of abstraction. If you said "MMOs are all about end game" back then, many would have thought you were nuts.
Today's MMOs not only fail to capture the essence of those older MMOs, they aren't even trying anymore. Some capture a glimmer of it. None have nailed it, though. The closest I've seen it come recently is Secret World. It nails it in a number of aspects. The community aspect isn't quite there, yet. Hopefully we can get it there, though.
You need to get out more and find a life.
You know, there are things called "books" that are fun to read once in a while.
There are things called "movies" that are fun to watch.
Heck, there are OTHER video games. I will prefer to play Dead Space more than most MMOs.
Well before WoW there were quite a few MMO's that all seemed very different from eachother, there was innovation in the genre and every time you played a new one it was something almost completely different, mine was conquer. Then WoW came out, and it was huge, exploding the genre 10fold (not a wow fanboy, in fact i hate the game, it's just what happened.) And that was fine as it brought certain features to the genre that hadn't been there before... The problem lies in the 7 years after where (it seems) 90% of every MMO coming out was a direct ripoff of wow in some way, leaving very little room for innovation in the genre which has made it very stale.
I mostly just miss the brutality of classic MMO's like UO, DAoC, Conquer, etc due to the way the pvp systems used to work. MMO's just feel cloned and a bit too carebearish nowadays.
However I do believe we might be looking at a whole new golden age with MMO's that are soon to come, Innovation is something that developers are finally realizing is extremely necessary, took em long enough but I guess they finally caught on. Some of them are still doing it wrong with good intensions by looking for one big area to innovate in but kind of leaving everything else as bland as any other mmo in 7 years.
Examples would be:
SWTOR - Story
Tera - Combat
Rift - PvE events
WAR - Great mass PvP ideas (though it sounded better on paper)
ArchAge - Freedom
etc..
Now if we look at all these games, we'll find that for the most part each of this games excel in their respective areas quite well. That's great, and a step in the right direction, However if you take a look at the rest of the features in each of these games you'll find that there isn't much different about them then many other games published prior to them.
But there is hope. What if we could take all of these best features and much much more, polish everything, and put them into one game, an MMO that innovates in practically every department of the genre? Or do something else entirely? MMO's like these are coming, and I think they're going to spark this genre up completely.
For me I have found GW2. Even though I've only played it for a maximum of 6 days I have tried and tested everything I could about it, Somehow it has met and surpassed every single expectation I had for it from months and months of researching it... It is, at least for me, The perfect MMO filled with great potential of an entirely new golden age.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months.
Why is it still such a big deal?
I can still walk into a town in any mmo and see hundreds of other players, thus the defining trait is still in tact.
Playing
Nothing
waiting for
The secret world
Played
WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
Actually from a descriptive point you are right,however a true Mmo actually makes you group with other players and interact in a social atmosphere.One of the primary reason older games were difficult was to create a playerbase that relied on each other for support,something that doesnt happen very often anymore in newer mmos.
"True" MMO? Who decide that? You?
And why would i want to "relied on each other for support"? I would much prefer to go into a game, push a LFD button, and get into a group. Online games are NOT AA meetings.
exactly. IF I choose to meet, and make friends with people over a game, thats cool, thats all well and good, good for me for trying. HOWEVER. if I want to just PLAY THE FREGGIN' GAME I PAID FOR, I should be able to, whenever I want, however I want if it doesn't impeed on other players doing what they want.
Playing
Nothing
waiting for
The secret world
Played
WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
I like kraft mac and cheese with crushed potatoe chips and freshly fried bits of bacon in it.
Some of the older mmo's were better than 99% of the mass produced cookie cutter mmo's of today. That's just how it is. Sure there's some nostalgia, however the entire mmo template has modernized to a point where alot of vets are disatisfied by the current state of mmo's.
Easy answer to that question. It is nostalgia for the challenge and freedom the old games provided us. There actually was a challenge to gameplay, not this ridiculous handholding that is provided today.
Your hopes are coming true. There is PoE, Torchlight 2 and GrimDawn coming.
Not to mention more online focused Marvel Heroes and LineAge: Eternal.
You will have plenty of Diablo 3 like games to play.
I would even say most of them seem that might be far better than D3.
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Anyway - I think that's what is root of a "issue".
Current mmorpg playerbase consist of people that want very diffrent thigns. Things that frequently exclude themself.
I really hope more games like MOBA's or other lobby are made for people that play mmorpg's mostly or purely for arenas.
I hope more h&s games are made for players that want mostly to slash mobs and don't like other things.
I hope more games like DDO, Vindictus or other COPRG's heavy-instanced games are made for those people that play mmorpg's almost purely for doing instances over and over.
I hope that for remaining mmorpg population some of future mmorpg's will be more mmo and rpg in their design and less lobby.
More games like that mean smaller mmorpg playerbase. That's unfortunate, but it cannot be avoided. After all big boom for mmorpg's when WoW and few other games came was because many gamers started to play it - gamers that could not care less about mmo, virtual world, crafting, economy, exploring,politics and that side of things.
That people that will stay in mmorpg's genre will want more complete mmorpg experience. Of course that mean less titles and smaller budgets, but overall that will be better.
I think for the most part it's simply a matter of what "MMORPG" means to you. Vets that played before 2004 and someone that just started 2 years ago would have very different definitions and associations for "MMORPG". Those definitions can and have been argued at great length, but it's apples and oranges. The two groups at best will have to agree to disagree.
What you have been playing for the past couple of years is very different from what I played in 2000, which defined the genre for both of us. I could claim that my definition is correct simply because it was there first but I would never be so dismissive of someone elses views, all I ask is that you do the same. I dislike being told that it's simply rose-colored glasses or nostalgia. I find the equivelant of that as saying you're too stupid/impatient to understand the complexities of older games.
Instead, both gamers should try to listen to the other. There were some really great things about those old games that, if you gave it a try, might enjoy immensely and vice-versa. Don't be so dismissive simply because you weren't there for it. Doing that hurts the genre as a whole. It's clear the genre is having some identity issues and that can't really be solved until the people playing them decide what it is exactly they're looking for.
I know. I am watching all 4 of those (PoE, TL2, GD & MH). I don't know much about LineAge: Eternal but probably will find out more.
PoE skills look horrible though. All those 1 point here, and 1 point there skill tree. I would much prefer customization like D3's skill rune that actually does something different.
And obviously there will be D3 expansion too. Life is good.
I would call a company that produces hit after hit "special". Every single game since Warcraft is a hit.
I don't know where you pull your 5M number. However, i do agree that people are not necessarily MMO fans. Many play WOW because it is a good game. And there is no reason why they should not evaluate newer MMOs along side with other online games.
Like it or not, MMO is competing with other forms of entertainment for people's time & money.
There are other forms of entertainment besides MMO's?
Oh yeah, that's all that sh!t my wife keeps dragging me away from my computer to go do, things called "movies", "dinner out", "vacations", and some of the most horrific, "craft festivals".
I mean, sometimes I can wrangle a good gun show, but the rest of it, bleh!
You need to get out more and find a life.
You know, there are things called "books" that are fun to read once in a while.
There are things called "movies" that are fun to watch.
Heck, there are OTHER video games. I will prefer to play Dead Space more than most MMOs.
But books require me to use my imagination. Thats too much work, fk that noise. I want everything spoon fed to me.I've started playing MMOs with World Of Warcraft and in my opinion the current gen of MMOs (WoW included) is taking a dive, quick.
This isn't that I want vanilla WoW back, I don't want UO back either.
I want a "modern" MMO, one that iterates upon the design. There are a few out there or coming soon that do some tiny steps in that direction, but you have to understand, up till this year, there was little to no change in the design of MMOs from 2005.
I mean even if you look at one of the more hyped releases like Planetside 2, its barely different from PS1 (bar graphics of course).
The only thing why it is getting so much attention is that PS1 was forgotten in the depths of the internet, so you could sell the same thing again to a new audience, just with more modern flash and explosions (disclosure: I will be playing it, its still a great game).
The golden age was good, in fact, it was superb, because the development wasn't entirely business-focused. Games had heart. Even vanilla WoW had a kind of heart in it.
The games of the golden age were amazing for their time, and nobody really judges them on modern standards, the same way we don't judge Ultima IV with modern standards.
What we are asking for is a reinvention and diversification of the "genre", because playing the same shit for 7+ years does get tiring and our "golden age" games are starting to look more and more like fucking masterpieces.
I upgraded my gfx card recently, to finally play AssCreed Revelations. I got home, installed it, played for an hour and reinstalled System Shock instead, because I'm sick and tired of the same game being released every year with minor gimmicks.
Money well spent.
Then watch tv and movies. Or play a FPS.