"Fine with me. It's their punishment for Barrens chat."
Cool blog. Curious to see how it works out for them.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
notice how in the article he cites a definition for open world pvp and then points out how according to the definition he is using GW2 has open world pvp.
Well, yeah. GW2 has a form of Open World PvP. Actually people even dispute that, but that's besides the point.
What isn't going to happen is people are not going to start looking at GW2's system and defining open world PvP based on their design principles. Open World PvP will likely carry the same meaning it always has before GW2 and will continue to after GW2.
At most, GW2 puts a twist on Open World PvP.
There is no twist, because there is no Open World PvP, GW2 have just one large predefined PvP zone/lake/instance. Why is so hard to accept simple fact?!
Aren't all games predefined? In open world pvp, the world is predefined... Also, guild wars 2 has huge zones filled with several environments... Just like most gaming worlds like WoW. Your definition makes it impossible to have world pvp, unless it is a sandbox kind of game. I believe that yes it is a twist on open world pvp, becuase it does have events, it does have several pvp pve elements, however it people kill each other in it... Seems very open worlds to me.
The difference is open world pvp assumes you are doing your indiscriminate murder of people in the same zone as someone doing their normal level up questing and such.
Which from a certain perspective is true in WvW, since you can and many people will level up solely through it.
On the other hand...You don't have the abillity to, say...walk into a city, or some low level player's newbie starting zone, and kil them. There's also the matter that you can't kill anyone on your server, only people from others.
WvW is not open world PvP, although it does contain some small elements of it.
Funny fans. Thus a game that has no open world PvP now redefines open world PvP?
Okay ...
once again, try not to miss the part where he works from someone else's definition. he did not define open world pvp through the lense of GW2. he examined one way to look at GW2 as having open pvp through the lense of someone else's definition.
you and a few others are mentally/rhetorically reversing the situation to have it match your view. of course it seems ridiculous when distorted in such a way.
i'm not trying to make the argument that GW2 is an open world pvp game. but yes, by the definition he has used the argument is sound. i would like to see someone with an opposing view state their claim in such a logical manner but perhaps that isn't possible, i have no idea. maybe his viewpoint is the only rational one. so far in this thread that is the case.
First off I like the game, and I have only a small list of complaints. One of which is no names in WvW. I'd really like to see this changed, or at least be able to toggle my own name on. I guess I don't really understand the reasoning behind this design choice. I'll give ANet the benefit of the doubt and assume there is more to it than protecting players egos.
Is or isn't open world PvP I don't care. It feels like open world PvP and it plays like open world PvP and reminds me of my DAoC days. Have not had this much fun PvPing in a very long time. The PvPer in me is sated.
Originally posted by rwhod First off I like the game, and I have only a small list of complaints. One of which is no names in WvW. I'd really like to see this changed, or at least be able to toggle my own name on. I guess I don't really understand the reasoning behind this design choice. I'll give ANet the benefit of the doubt and assume there is more to it than protecting players egos.
There is more to it than that. To be honest, I don't think that was even one of the reasons Anet gave, though they explained their reasoning a long time ago.
Afaik, the main reason they decided to implement names the way they did, was to put more of an emphasis on guilds and servers. From my limited experience in the BWEs, this already seems to be working. A lot of the player 'anymosity' seems to be more directed towards well known guilds (and devs), and servers, rather than particular individuals.
I think another reason they did this was for large fights. It's kinda lame if you're a well known player and are constantly being 1 shotted, because everyone zergs you everytime. Smarter players will still be able to tell an individual without their name being shown. There are enough tells to be able to spot this.
Anyway, that's basically the idea behind that design decision. They want the focus to be on a more broader scale, rather than an individual one. When you have player names, a lot of the time the focus becomes about getting revenge on one specific player, rather than for your realm or guild.
Originally posted by KingJiggly Originally posted by Luxthor Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Ramanadjinn notice how in the article he cites a definition for open world pvp and then points out how according to the definition he is using GW2 has open world pvp.
Well, yeah. GW2 has a form of Open World PvP. Actually people even dispute that, but that's besides the point.
What isn't going to happen is people are not going to start looking at GW2's system and defining open world PvP based on their design principles. Open World PvP will likely carry the same meaning it always has before GW2 and will continue to after GW2.
At most, GW2 puts a twist on Open World PvP.
There is no twist, because there is no Open World PvP, GW2 have just one large predefined PvP zone/lake/instance. Why is so hard to accept simple fact?!
Aren't all games predefined? In open world pvp, the world is predefined... Also, guild wars 2 has huge zones filled with several environments... Just like most gaming worlds like WoW. Your definition makes it impossible to have world pvp, unless it is a sandbox kind of game. I believe that yes it is a twist on open world pvp, becuase it does have events, it does have several pvp pve elements, however it people kill each other in it... Seems very open worlds to me.
The difference is open world pvp assumes you are doing your indiscriminate murder of people in the same zone as someone doing their normal level up questing and such.
Which from a certain perspective is true in WvW, since you can and many people will level up solely through it.
On the other hand...You don't have the abillity to, say...walk into a city, or some low level player's newbie starting zone, and kil them. There's also the matter that you can't kill anyone on your server, only people from others.
WvW is not open world PvP, although it does contain some small elements of it.
So killing noobs in a city makes it world pvp? How bout if I kill noobs in a fortress in guild wars 2? Just because we are equal level doesn't make even, this game is based on skill level... So technically if I go by that I will be doing the same exact thing as you describe... Killing noobs in cities, only it's lack of skill noobs not lack of level noobs. Also, I think that is a twisted definition of world pvp, simply killing noobs makes it world pvp...
It seems like people are always trying to "sell" this game.
I'm patiently waiting for the article about how Guild Wars 2 redefines player housing
Really depends on how you look at it.
On the one hand, you do have people hyping up the game.
On the other, you have some very vocal people spreading bullshit about the game.
Neither are particularly good, or honest. That said, GW2 is doing things differently, whether you like that or not. It's also a well made game, whether you like it or not. It really doesn't matter whether WvW is considered 'true Open World PvP' from sandbox purists. The article even points this out. It may not seem like Open World PvP by purists, but they are taking a lot of the same features of an Open World PvP system, and encorperating them into GW2 in a modified fashion.
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by FoomerangIt seems like people are always trying to "sell" this game.I'm patiently waiting for the article about how Guild Wars 2 redefines player housing
Really depends on how you look at it.
On the one hand, you do have people hyping up the game.
On the other, you have some very vocal people spreading bullshit about the game.
Neither are particularly good, or honest. That said, GW2 is doing things differently, whether you like that or not. It's also a well made game, whether you like it or not. It really doesn't matter whether WvW is considered 'true Open World PvP' from sandbox purists. The article even points this out. It may not seem like Open World PvP by purists, but they are taking a lot of the same features of an Open World PvP system, and encorperating them into GW2 in a modified fashion.
Make of that what you want, but it's true.
Aug 25th cant come soon enough. People can finally stop playing the GW2 in their heads, and play the real thing and move on with their lives.
Originally posted by FoomerangIt seems like people are always trying to "sell" this game.I'm patiently waiting for the article about how Guild Wars 2 redefines player housing
Really depends on how you look at it.
On the one hand, you do have people hyping up the game.
On the other, you have some very vocal people spreading bullshit about the game.
Neither are particularly good, or honest. That said, GW2 is doing things differently, whether you like that or not. It's also a well made game, whether you like it or not. It really doesn't matter whether WvW is considered 'true Open World PvP' from sandbox purists. The article even points this out. It may not seem like Open World PvP by purists, but they are taking a lot of the same features of an Open World PvP system, and encorperating them into GW2 in a modified fashion.
Make of that what you want, but it's true.
Aug 25th cant come soon enough. People can finally stop playing the GW2 in their heads, and play the real thing and move on with their lives.
I have played it and so have others. The ones playing in their head are probably the ones like you who seem to claim gw2 will disappoint because it won't cure some nonexistent cancer. Then again i guess the cancer could be metaphor for people like you who hate a game just for the sake of hating it.
its always funny to me in games when the uber loot crowd come into threads and chats and tell everyone how its not open world pvp because they cant gank your level 10 noob toon. Or the rationalization that follows saying ohhhh its about the danger of getting ganked or camped... Get over it seriously open world pvp is exactly that an open world pvp zone where anyone can enter and fight at any level. Guild wars 2 delivers that regardless of what the uber l33t gank crowd here thinks. The value of the world vs world is not on the exact same quality as DAOC was in its heyday but its very very close if you spent more then 15 mins in it you would realize it. Also to us chasing a game similiar to DAOC 2 , guild wars 2 comes close enough to make us WANT to stand behind it and praise it as it delivers what WE want it to.
Originally posted by silvermember I have played it and so have others. The ones playing in their head are probably the ones like you who seem to claim gw2 will disappoint because it won't cure some nonexistent cancer. Then again i guess the cancer could be metaphor for people like you who hate a game just for the sake of hating it.
Thats cute. I wont go into how wrong you are about me because I'll end up being the one getting the suspension. Anyway, theres a huge difference between people's BWE experiences and these rampant threads where people are pontificating on their healthy imaginations about this game. You can spot them easily. And while fun to read and easy to tease, they are anything but fact. So the next time we get an earful about the concept of fun, or are told how afraid we are of change, of any of the plethora of other aloof sermons from these enlightened gamers, you'll have to forgive me for not being right there with ya. There are very few things in this world I hate. And a video game never has been, and never will be one of them.
This is right up there with the sandbox / themepark debate. People have to try to twist the definition to suit their own idea and completely ignore the accepted definition.
notice how in the article he cites a definition for open world pvp and then points out how according to the definition he is using GW2 has open world pvp.
Well, yeah. GW2 has a form of Open World PvP. Actually people even dispute that, but that's besides the point.
What isn't going to happen is people are not going to start looking at GW2's system and defining open world PvP based on their design principles. Open World PvP will likely carry the same meaning it always has before GW2 and will continue to after GW2.
At most, GW2 puts a twist on Open World PvP.
If a PvP and a PvE server is identical then open world PvP don't exist, therefore there are none PvP servers.
WvW is nice but it's just a buffed up minigame, just like TSW's Warzone .
notice how in the article he cites a definition for open world pvp and then points out how according to the definition he is using GW2 has open world pvp.
Well, yeah. GW2 has a form of Open World PvP. Actually people even dispute that, but that's besides the point.
What isn't going to happen is people are not going to start looking at GW2's system and defining open world PvP based on their design principles. Open World PvP will likely carry the same meaning it always has before GW2 and will continue to after GW2.
At most, GW2 puts a twist on Open World PvP.
If a PvP and a PvE server is identical then open world PvP don't exist, therefore there are none PvP servers.
WvW is nice but it's just a buffed up minigame, just like TSW's Warzone .
I never said that GW2 had PvP servers. They don't.
Besides that, I agree with both sides in a way. GW2 is not an open world PvP game. But GW2 has 4 zones that have open world PvP. In those zones there are towns, a dungeon, skill points, PvE mobs and... open world PvP. I don't think it's black and white.
GW2 is not an open world PvP game. It does have a few open world PvP zones.
If a PvP and a PvE server is identical then open world PvP don't exist.
GW2 does not have pvp and pve servers.
Which was my point. All of them are PvE servers.
my point was that for two things to be identical they must first exist. gw2 officially does not have pve/pvp servers.
i can see your viewpoint on the situation, but there is an alternate view. there is a certain amount of uniqueness to the systems in place that causes them to not always fit precisely into the labels we have from past games, much like what happens to the terms sandbox and themepark quite often as was pointed out earlier.
for instance, if you accept the premise by the author of the article that under the definition used in that article GW2 has open world pvp you could argue just as justifiably that all servers are PVP servers.
it is certainly not the only argument possible, but its still the only one i've seen made within this thread.
notice how in the article he cites a definition for open world pvp and then points out how according to the definition he is using GW2 has open world pvp.
Well, yeah. GW2 has a form of Open World PvP. Actually people even dispute that, but that's besides the point.
What isn't going to happen is people are not going to start looking at GW2's system and defining open world PvP based on their design principles. Open World PvP will likely carry the same meaning it always has before GW2 and will continue to after GW2.
At most, GW2 puts a twist on Open World PvP.
If a PvP and a PvE server is identical then open world PvP don't exist, therefore there are none PvP servers.
WvW is nice but it's just a buffed up minigame, just like TSW's Warzone .
By your definition, there is open world PvP since Guild Wars 2 utilizes different servers for PvE content and different servers for PvP. *facepalm*
How is it different to daoc and planetside... There's less of it. It's not the main focus of the game. (or only focus of the game in planetsides case) No real rivalry, your just fighting a different set of random nameless dudes every 2 weeks.
Gw1 defined mmo pvp? Lol, just lol. Gw1 defined the stupid instanced mini games Esports pvp that has since been the only form of pvp in many games, a burger compared to prior games pvp steak. To be fair gw1 does do that sort of pvp better than any mmo, gw1 pvp is a gourmet burger.
Due to the popularity of this entry, I decided to make a slight amendment to it as an addition to the debate happening within the comments. Do enjoy! — TemperHoof
And the debate continues, which I expected entirely. This Blog is not the end all, be all of answers and fact. Everything here is prospective, and it pleases me to see such a thriving community taking interest in this subject — whether it is for or even against my topic. One thing I want to point out is the idea of the “Instance”.
“An instance is a special area, typically a dungeon, that generates a new copy of the location for each group, or for certain number of players, that enters the area. Instancing, the general term for the use of this technique, addresses several problems encountered by players in the shared spaces of virtual worlds.” — Wikipedia
There are a lot of people claiming World vs World takes place within an Instance, therefore leading to the point that it is not Open World PVP. Perhaps I should ask the general public to understand a simple fact: ArenaNet is making three games: three MMORPGs. One of which is called The Mists. It is a game complete within itself, with PVE content, level progression, end game, objectives, cities, and towns. In addition, there are NOT several copies of The Mists which spawn as it gets full. Once it is full, it’s full — you will have to queue for entry just like any other MMORPG that has a full server.
Just because it exists within the same package as Tyria, ArenaNet’s purely PVE MMORPG, doesn’t mean that The Mists is instanced out of Tyria. When you are inside of Guild Wars 2, you can just access your main menu and choose to instantly move to World vs World at any time. You are switching from one game to another, despite the fact they exist within the same universe and are connected to the same network.
By understanding that The Mists is a game completely and 100% independent of Tyria, that means that the world is NOT instanced. It is designed to support a large population much bigger than simple Battlegrounds. Unlike DAoC, the Frontier was not an independent MMORPG that was an optional part of the game. The Mists is a fully optional MMORPG that will be populated with content familiar to Tyria, but it will support large amounts of player on player combat.
Level progression plays a large part of The Mists, and someone who is level 80 will surely dominate a level 1 with ease. Furthermore, you can gank and grief however you please. I mentioned several examples in my article where you can setup Ballista. Now understand Ballista, these are fast-shooting giant sniper bolt launchers. These can hit players from crazy distances and practically do one shot kills. If you have two or even three Ballista setup side by side, you are going to cause a lot of trouble for the lowbie players and will get your satisfactory feeling of ruining someone’s day.
Furthermore you can camp Mistwrought Dungeon and kill lowbies there too! What I’m saying is The Mists is a game within a game: it is not an instance. By claiming that it is an instance, you risk devaluing the very Open World PVP games you use to support your own arguments. No MMORPG is just a big seamless world; everything takes place within a zone of some sort. Each zone can support a set number of players, just like servers. Each server can only support a given population. If you argue that World vs World is just an instance and not an MMORPG, then you are saying that every single game is also just an instance — just a bigger instance.
So the The Mists isn’t a huge MMORPG, in respects to its size — which is just five zones — it is indeed fairly small. Yet that doesn’t change the fact that it is still a large world for five areas, and despite it not supporting a flourishing, massively, and expansive world — ask yourself this. Do you truly understand how small the Open World PVP crowd truly is? In your imagination the size may be vast and huge, because you expose yourself to that game crowd a great deal. But does it truly give you an idea just how many people truly enjoy that game style versus the rest of the MMORPG population?
ArenaNet has created an MMORPG that they felt was large enough, at launch, for the target audience. In many Open World PVP games, you will likely spend a long time between each encounter. Or vast sections of the game turn into uneventful, useless graveyards of unused, underplayed content because the Open World PVP crowds find little use for those regions. ArenaNet has chosen to streamline it, cut the fat, keep things more straight-forward to allow for more frequent and consistent action to please the diehard PVPer with the ability to quickly drop into the game, find battle, and get the hell on with their lives.
They are reducing the need for extended camping; they are also increasing the activity by squeezing a sizable population into a smaller space. This promotes a more intense and active atmosphere, making that small world feel more alive and thrilling. There will always be something happening everywhere in The Mists, while in many other Open World PVP MMORPGs — nothing was happening but a few sparse scrims. Larger battles would take place in more popular regions as the rest of the game was vastly untouched.
My argument takes the point of view the The Mists is not an instance, nor battle maps, but a fully fleshed out mini-MMORPG married with two other MMORPGs. Therefore it is an Open World PVP MMORPG.
Comments
Reading this made me chuckle at an old memory.
"Crossroads is under attack."
"Fine with me. It's their punishment for Barrens chat."
Cool blog. Curious to see how it works out for them.
The difference is open world pvp assumes you are doing your indiscriminate murder of people in the same zone as someone doing their normal level up questing and such.
Which from a certain perspective is true in WvW, since you can and many people will level up solely through it.
On the other hand...You don't have the abillity to, say...walk into a city, or some low level player's newbie starting zone, and kil them. There's also the matter that you can't kill anyone on your server, only people from others.
WvW is not open world PvP, although it does contain some small elements of it.
Funny fans. Thus a game that has no open world PvP now redefines open world PvP?
Okay ...
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
once again, try not to miss the part where he works from someone else's definition. he did not define open world pvp through the lense of GW2. he examined one way to look at GW2 as having open pvp through the lense of someone else's definition.
you and a few others are mentally/rhetorically reversing the situation to have it match your view. of course it seems ridiculous when distorted in such a way.
i'm not trying to make the argument that GW2 is an open world pvp game. but yes, by the definition he has used the argument is sound. i would like to see someone with an opposing view state their claim in such a logical manner but perhaps that isn't possible, i have no idea. maybe his viewpoint is the only rational one. so far in this thread that is the case.
There is more to it than that. To be honest, I don't think that was even one of the reasons Anet gave, though they explained their reasoning a long time ago.
Afaik, the main reason they decided to implement names the way they did, was to put more of an emphasis on guilds and servers. From my limited experience in the BWEs, this already seems to be working. A lot of the player 'anymosity' seems to be more directed towards well known guilds (and devs), and servers, rather than particular individuals.
I think another reason they did this was for large fights. It's kinda lame if you're a well known player and are constantly being 1 shotted, because everyone zergs you everytime. Smarter players will still be able to tell an individual without their name being shown. There are enough tells to be able to spot this.
Anyway, that's basically the idea behind that design decision. They want the focus to be on a more broader scale, rather than an individual one. When you have player names, a lot of the time the focus becomes about getting revenge on one specific player, rather than for your realm or guild.
Well, yeah. GW2 has a form of Open World PvP. Actually people even dispute that, but that's besides the point.
What isn't going to happen is people are not going to start looking at GW2's system and defining open world PvP based on their design principles. Open World PvP will likely carry the same meaning it always has before GW2 and will continue to after GW2.
At most, GW2 puts a twist on Open World PvP.
There is no twist, because there is no Open World PvP, GW2 have just one large predefined PvP zone/lake/instance. Why is so hard to accept simple fact?!
Aren't all games predefined? In open world pvp, the world is predefined... Also, guild wars 2 has huge zones filled with several environments... Just like most gaming worlds like WoW. Your definition makes it impossible to have world pvp, unless it is a sandbox kind of game. I believe that yes it is a twist on open world pvp, becuase it does have events, it does have several pvp pve elements, however it people kill each other in it... Seems very open worlds to me.The difference is open world pvp assumes you are doing your indiscriminate murder of people in the same zone as someone doing their normal level up questing and such.
Which from a certain perspective is true in WvW, since you can and many people will level up solely through it.
On the other hand...You don't have the abillity to, say...walk into a city, or some low level player's newbie starting zone, and kil them. There's also the matter that you can't kill anyone on your server, only people from others.
WvW is not open world PvP, although it does contain some small elements of it.
So killing noobs in a city makes it world pvp? How bout if I kill noobs in a fortress in guild wars 2? Just because we are equal level doesn't make even, this game is based on skill level... So technically if I go by that I will be doing the same exact thing as you describe... Killing noobs in cities, only it's lack of skill noobs not lack of level noobs. Also, I think that is a twisted definition of world pvp, simply killing noobs makes it world pvp...http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
It seems like people are always trying to "sell" this game.
I'm patiently waiting for the article about how Guild Wars 2 redefines player housing
Really depends on how you look at it.
On the one hand, you do have people hyping up the game.
On the other, you have some very vocal people spreading bullshit about the game.
Neither are particularly good, or honest. That said, GW2 is doing things differently, whether you like that or not. It's also a well made game, whether you like it or not. It really doesn't matter whether WvW is considered 'true Open World PvP' from sandbox purists. The article even points this out. It may not seem like Open World PvP by purists, but they are taking a lot of the same features of an Open World PvP system, and encorperating them into GW2 in a modified fashion.
Make of that what you want, but it's true.
On the one hand, you do have people hyping up the game.
On the other, you have some very vocal people spreading bullshit about the game.
Neither are particularly good, or honest. That said, GW2 is doing things differently, whether you like that or not. It's also a well made game, whether you like it or not. It really doesn't matter whether WvW is considered 'true Open World PvP' from sandbox purists. The article even points this out. It may not seem like Open World PvP by purists, but they are taking a lot of the same features of an Open World PvP system, and encorperating them into GW2 in a modified fashion.
Make of that what you want, but it's true.
Aug 25th cant come soon enough. People can finally stop playing the GW2 in their heads, and play the real thing and move on with their lives.
I have played it and so have others. The ones playing in their head are probably the ones like you who seem to claim gw2 will disappoint because it won't cure some nonexistent cancer. Then again i guess the cancer could be metaphor for people like you who hate a game just for the sake of hating it.
its always funny to me in games when the uber loot crowd come into threads and chats and tell everyone how its not open world pvp because they cant gank your level 10 noob toon. Or the rationalization that follows saying ohhhh its about the danger of getting ganked or camped... Get over it seriously open world pvp is exactly that an open world pvp zone where anyone can enter and fight at any level. Guild wars 2 delivers that regardless of what the uber l33t gank crowd here thinks. The value of the world vs world is not on the exact same quality as DAOC was in its heyday but its very very close if you spent more then 15 mins in it you would realize it. Also to us chasing a game similiar to DAOC 2 , guild wars 2 comes close enough to make us WANT to stand behind it and praise it as it delivers what WE want it to.
But it is awesome.
This is right up there with the sandbox / themepark debate. People have to try to twist the definition to suit their own idea and completely ignore the accepted definition.
If a PvP and a PvE server is identical then open world PvP don't exist, therefore there are none PvP servers.
WvW is nice but it's just a buffed up minigame, just like TSW's Warzone .
GW2 does not have pvp and pve servers.
Which was my point. All of them are PvE servers.
Or perhaps we have determined that GW2 is somewhat different in that it has both on each server.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I never said that GW2 had PvP servers. They don't.
Besides that, I agree with both sides in a way. GW2 is not an open world PvP game. But GW2 has 4 zones that have open world PvP. In those zones there are towns, a dungeon, skill points, PvE mobs and... open world PvP. I don't think it's black and white.
GW2 is not an open world PvP game. It does have a few open world PvP zones.
my point was that for two things to be identical they must first exist. gw2 officially does not have pve/pvp servers.
i can see your viewpoint on the situation, but there is an alternate view. there is a certain amount of uniqueness to the systems in place that causes them to not always fit precisely into the labels we have from past games, much like what happens to the terms sandbox and themepark quite often as was pointed out earlier.
for instance, if you accept the premise by the author of the article that under the definition used in that article GW2 has open world pvp you could argue just as justifiably that all servers are PVP servers.
it is certainly not the only argument possible, but its still the only one i've seen made within this thread.
i guess we just disagree.
By your definition, there is open world PvP since Guild Wars 2 utilizes different servers for PvE content and different servers for PvP. *facepalm*
There's less of it.
It's not the main focus of the game. (or only focus of the game in planetsides case)
No real rivalry, your just fighting a different set of random nameless dudes every 2 weeks.
Gw1 defined mmo pvp?
Lol, just lol. Gw1 defined the stupid instanced mini games Esports pvp that has since been the only form of pvp in many games, a burger compared to prior games pvp steak. To be fair gw1 does do that sort of pvp better than any mmo, gw1 pvp is a gourmet burger.