Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
F2P, B2P, P2W, WTF?!
Mrlogic
Member Posts: 178
Thought this was a good video on the subject, a little bit of history combined with examples and comparisons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TCrHWJcxdA
Comments
An interesting watch, thanks for sharing
Really interesting .. thanks for sharing
I don't know...
He seems set on the idea that being able to buy what others put time getting in-game is NOT P2W. Isn't that the very definition of P2W? People spending money in cash shops for what others get by spending time in-game? It seems that a player can spend time or money (or both). In most other scenarios, that is P2W.
I understand that players want equality and fairness, but what is fair to one is usually quite the opposite to another. If I happen to put 3 hours a day into a game for a week, I certainly hope that a player on the weekend cannot come in, spend a little (a lot?) of cash, and be at the same point I am in the game. They are "paying to win." They are substituting time and effort with cold, hard cash. That, to me, is the very definition of P2W.
What this all stems from is the "I want what they have!" syndrome. Players do not want to work for what others have, they want to buy it quickly. This works well in the real world. Why change your own oil when you can pay someone else to do it for you? Now you have that saved time to do other things. In game worlds, I hope this is not the way, but it seems many wish it to be. What is the difference between buying cash shop items and buying a fully leveled character on e-bay? The difference is the amount of time one puts into the game to get what they have and learn their characters skills.
This argument is not too dissimilar from solo players wanting the exact same items and gameplay as players who raid. If you want items from raiding, you better get into raiding.
I understand that not every player has the time to invest as other players. But expecting to be equal in a game as those players who do have the time to invest is silly. Can you get a college degree without spending the time to get one? (Maybe you can, I just don't know about it
) Yes, you can get a degree in less time than others, but that involves work, not money.
I guess it all boils down to, "Why play a game?" If one can buy their way to the top without spending the time to get there, what is the point? Why are you playing the game?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Bah, the guy definitely had some good points. But he was also downright wrong on several things, such as the definition of "Pay to win" and also his "belief" that there is no correlation between The quality of a game and it's buisness model. Which is obviously so blatently wrong that it makes me not want to listen to some of the things he gets right because he is so incorrect on the ones that really matter.
I had to downvote the video just because he was so badly convoluted on those two points it made me want to throttle him.
Still thanks for the link.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
http://youtu.be/XlZUXVJrXOE?t=33m1s
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
So far I'm disagreeing with him calling GW2 a F2P game, it's B2P because you do have to buy the game initially whereas if you were to go by his definition of F2P there is no transaction between the buyer and the game developer to get involved.
He's absolutely right about the stigma that we have even seen over and over in these very forums that the bad quality games are all F2P. That's true that people believe that but like every argument that doesn't have enough research on the end of those who are making these assumptions, it's wrong. F2P =/= bad game. F2P is the direct result of the market causing the limiting nature of subscription only models unsustainable so the exploration of other forms of revenue were needed. Now, some models are better then others on F2P like Aions is completely successful without the need to limit content like LOTRO has done even tho both have been successful and they are earning much more then they were under subs.
I absolutely agree with him that F2P does NOT indicate the quality of the game. That is so true, so many games i've played that were great games were F2P.
I agree with his analogy that F2P and P2W are not synonymous. Love his P2W analogy because he describes what people immediately imagine when in game and purchasing something. For example, while fighting a boss player 1 sends $5 and the dev presses a button and the boss dies and drops epic loot, as opposed to what REALLY happens like what the argument against GW2 is right now where player 1 sends the developer $5 to get experience advancement and wins even though we all know by now that being level 80 instantly in GW2 doesn't do a thing for you as an advantage (even tho it is not instant).
Here's why that experience enhancement doesn't matter in GW2, your effective level is reduced to the area/dungeon you play in, your abilities strength are also reduced, your abilities you learn, basic attacks, are all weapon learning curve based, which means the ONLY way to advance your abilities is to actually fight with each weapon type until all of those abilities are LEARNED.
And finally, I love his final point. Just because you don't like a particular payment model doesn't immediately make it Pay to Win nor does it give you license to be childish and spread rumors and lies and misinformation all over the web about something you obviously can't clearly understand.
Great video thanks, maybe it educated a few in these forums today.
If you actually played f2p games, pretty much every f2p games is p2p. So you can't blame people for the misunderstanding.
There's a reason why GW2 isn't p2w because they try to sell box.
There's a reason why DDO, LOTRO, AION isn't p2w. Because it's a hybrid game. A huge chunk of the company revenue come from actually subscriber. The guy in the video says himself, one of the game doubled it's "subscriber number" after turning f2p. So making it p2w will scare it's subscriber away.
But the actually reality is those games that are purely f2p are evil. Bulk of them is indeed p2w. And I'm not imagine things, I bought something from the cashshop, push a button (or maybe a few), and this big boss died. And it's not 5$, it's 500$.
I think the reality is GW2 cashshop is actually very similar to other f2p cashshop. The major difference is on the game itself. Max level is easily reachable, exp license only gives 10%, gold is not very important, the gem itself isn't very important too, there's no gear gap. Basically the advantage you can buy with cashshop is very limited. But there's a reason why the whole cashshop concept from GW2 scares people. Because everything GW2 is doing is same as every other p2w cashshop. It's just the advantage is much much smaller.
You forgot Pay Per Content which gets falsly lumped together with f2p games.
f2p has all of its content for free...its free to play.
All those p2p games the go f2p are really ppc..you still have to pay for endgame and often that requiers a box purchase and a subscription.
only p2p games that have gone f2p are L2 and aion (correct me if im wrong here)
All the other "failed" p2p games simply created a free trial, with some like all the funcom games having everything but the expansions as free...those expansions are p2p and yeah you need them if you want pvp or an endgame really.
I just really think lumping games with an unlimited time trial but with content restrictions as f2p is deceptive. Also i think turbine has success switching because they had two good games on their hands. DDO was a great game, they just didnt seem to market it right early on and it really got lost on the side.
More of the p2p games do need a lengthy trial that involves more than a starter area, mabey not at launch to reduce bottlenecks and stress but certainly after 2-3 months. IMore people are willing to try games if they are free and most will pay for it if its worth it.
Great watch , sad that 99 % of the BS he is talking about is put out here on mmorpg.com ..
I liked that guy :-)
Very good watch. So true.
'Thers so many people out there trying to get information and all they get is the vocal minority spreading bullshit.'
oh yes.
He says clearly that GW2 is B2P but hes refering to it in the vid as F2P by habit.
Yes, this was one of the reasons why I posted this video here. Based on my limited knowledge (compared to others) I thought it was very helpful. Furthermore, it is very easy to spread misconceptions and maybe its not even intentional all the time but I think it's important that we can make the distinction between the different models before we decide to bash or question a game or model.
That second link guy is the most whiney annoying voice... come to think of it why do you guys rate any of them anyway? They dont even know what they're talking about. Pay money to gain anything other than cosmetic, vanity or fluff items and it's p2w. Dont get angry at me, it's just what it is.
Exactly my thoughts,thanks for saving me the time to write something similar
In most games progressing=power.
IN GW2 not so much.
Additionally money, unless you were born rich, require work and time to get.
If time=power in game, then the people with more free time win. If money=power in game, players with money win.
But if money= time and time=aesthetic fluff, then money=fluff. The only place in GW2 where make might a difference is early days in WvW and that is a 2 week long 1200 players format.
Basically it s a con, because the people spending money are paying to not play.
Buy your level 80 GW2 character at ebay. So what? In sPvP level 2 players are turned into 80 with all the gear available to them stat wise. In WvW is a 1200 man format - a single player will have a hard tme making a difference and only in the early life of the game, in PvE wherever he goes he is comaparable to other players due to down scalling and there is nothng else to progress in power.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Perhaps you should make a Video and enlighten us all then as to why they dont know what they are talking about ?