GW2 have created exactly that kind of PvP in their structured PvP games.
And in their WvWvW PvP, gear does matter way less, and the best gear is not that hard to aquire (think DAoC) so they are very much on track making skill matter more then gear.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
There's a difference between gear grind and gear progression.
LoL is gear progression based. You can be the best LoL player but if the carry of the oposing team get's a coin advantage or is getting fed you'll lose. And you lose not because of skill but because of gear. Funny to see peeps mentionning LoL as it's one of the games were gear makes the difference.
Some peeps like to grind over and over again the same instance to finaly get that little piece of top equipment. Why not after all, but I don't. I realy like how they, finaly, did it in warhammer.
Up to worn sov (rr70) you can buy every RvR set from a merchant. So once you reach the right level you just buy your new set. Above that
Sov rr80, Warpforged rr90, Doomflyer rr100
are gained through PvP/RvR by participating in TI or City Instances or killing peeps for Loot bags or medallions to buy your set. Only exception is the rr100 chestpiece that you gain through performing specific RvR tasks starting at rr95. RvR sets are also way better than PVE sets. The only reason to do some PVE on today's warhammer is LoTD pocket items, glyphs and special talismans. Those items can make a difference but nothing gamebreaking that would interfere with PvP/RvR.
^ ya but there's a power gap between people with rr1 and rr100.
Why can't people with rr1 beat a person with rr100 if he is more skilled, I think that's the argument here. Even if you can gain gear purely through pvp, that's still grinding for some people. Unless warhammer changed, as far as I know people with higher renown have a power advantage over people with lower renown, not only from the gear but also from the skill points.
I have no problem with any kind of pvp system. I think there's pros and cons in each. But the mmorpg I dreamed of isn't about balanced pvp, or purely skill based pvp. It's about power and resource, and people fighting over it. Because what is power or resource if there's no point on fighting over it? But admitely there's alot of pure pvp fan, and I understand why they want what they want.
For me there needs to be a gap, only the gap shouldn't that big that it's destroying PvP/RvR. In war there's the tiers and the bolster. They also recently changed the scenario brackets from lvl to rr brackets. Everyone same lvl, same eq, same skill points same whatever can work for arena battles but I wouldn't want to have it in RvR. Feeling your toon gaining in streght and potential while improving your gameplay skill wise is an important aspect in mmorpg for me.
What I enjoy as game is to fight for something and not just mindless beating on pukes for the sake of killing/rank or eq drops. There's a good reason why I came back to war once they revamped the campaign in 1.4.0 a year and a half ago.
I don't understand why I still pay for mmorpgs. But I won't anymore. I will wait for a good sandboxy mmo to be out and play single player games now and then.
Well, the first you should do is probably straighten out the contradictions. It'll save time later.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What about gaining better gear through pvp? Is that bad too?
I like gear progression. If I want pure skill based game I will play LoL, MOBA, starcraft or whatever, which I did play. But I do enjoy gear progression in mmorpg.
Why do you enjoy gear progression?
I think you'll find that in almost every case, it's for 3 reasons; a) because they get to show off their status by exhibiting cool gear ("I have the Uber Boots of Baddassery and you have regular leather boots") and b) because they like having an advantage ("Heh, I have all top tier PvP gear, ther's no way that guy who just started can beat me") and c) because people who don't really like PvP need an "incentive" to do it ("Why would I fight another player if I'm not gonna get something for it?").
Gear progression is usually liked by PvP wannabes, ganker and griefers.
a) Easily fixed by having just visual progression and exclusive looking gear for "higher ranks"
b) If you have advantage in gear you defeat the purpose of "skill" in PvP. It's gear than wins you a fight, not your own abilities, meaning the PVP becomes a farse. It's not only not really exciting but also creates a huge difference between new and old players. If you are new to the game you pretty much have no chance to win at all only because your gear so weaker than everyone's else.
c) If they don't like PvP why should they? Since when PvP is essential? If a game aims to please as wide group of people as possible they should have plenty of activites other than PvP to cater to players that don't give a flying duck about PvP. If it's a PvP focused game, why people that don't like it even play it?
It isn't fair, but then it isn't fair that I don't have the hand eye coordination of a 20 year old either, so I prefer games that balance the PVP a bit by letting gear matter. (think of it as sort of a handicapping system as used by golf or bowling leagues)
I honestly don't understand this argument, because you are giving those 20 year olds with the better hand eye a double advantage by adding better gear. So you feel gimped and want to be gimped even further, because that's what that system does.
Exactly.
Who is going to have more time to grind out the gear?
And every single MMO you get more for winning than you do for losing a "match" or whatever, so the 20 year old with better hand eye coordination is going to win more often and thus get the better gear faster anyway, and they'll likely have more time so you are actually triple screwed.
I think for many, gear progression just makes sense, especially in an RPG. Why should a steel sword crafted by a master weaponsmith be equal to your average, crude bronze sword? Gear progression adds believability to a game world, and leads players to constantly improve their characters. It is responsible for maintaining a real economy, providing meaningful trade, and stimulating character development.
You mention that you are awaiting a "good sandboxy mmo", yet you fail to acknowledge that pretty much any decent sandbox REQUIRES a powerful economical facet, which in turn REQUIRES gear progression. I do believe that focusing a game entirely on gear is not the best choice, as player skill is something that also just makes sense, but gear should nevertheless play an important role.
gear progression is NOT required for economy. player-made-only and/or degrading gear supports economy.
Perhaps you don't understand what gear progression is. Gear progression is, quite simply, items getting better and better. I did not state the means for obtaining said items as that delves into another subject altogether. A game where one can craft a sword better than another contains gear progression. Furthermore, a game that contains gear degradation also implies gear progression, unless all the items in said game only had an aesthetic value, which I don't believe any game would contain such a feature.
It isn't fair, but then it isn't fair that I don't have the hand eye coordination of a 20 year old either, so I prefer games that balance the PVP a bit by letting gear matter. (think of it as sort of a handicapping system as used by golf or bowling leagues)
What's unfair about the better player winning? To me that's the absolute definition of fair. Sounds to me like to you, fairness just means that you win.
Comments
I know it will sound like a fanboi,but....
GW2 have created exactly that kind of PvP in their structured PvP games.
And in their WvWvW PvP, gear does matter way less, and the best gear is not that hard to aquire (think DAoC) so they are very much on track making skill matter more then gear.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Any system that allows PVPers to have much better gear than their opponents is massively broken.
There's a difference between gear grind and gear progression.
LoL is gear progression based. You can be the best LoL player but if the carry of the oposing team get's a coin advantage or is getting fed you'll lose. And you lose not because of skill but because of gear. Funny to see peeps mentionning LoL as it's one of the games were gear makes the difference.
Some peeps like to grind over and over again the same instance to finaly get that little piece of top equipment. Why not after all, but I don't. I realy like how they, finaly, did it in warhammer.
Up to worn sov (rr70) you can buy every RvR set from a merchant. So once you reach the right level you just buy your new set. Above that
Sov rr80, Warpforged rr90, Doomflyer rr100
are gained through PvP/RvR by participating in TI or City Instances or killing peeps for Loot bags or medallions to buy your set. Only exception is the rr100 chestpiece that you gain through performing specific RvR tasks starting at rr95. RvR sets are also way better than PVE sets. The only reason to do some PVE on today's warhammer is LoTD pocket items, glyphs and special talismans. Those items can make a difference but nothing gamebreaking that would interfere with PvP/RvR.
^ ya but there's a power gap between people with rr1 and rr100.
Why can't people with rr1 beat a person with rr100 if he is more skilled, I think that's the argument here. Even if you can gain gear purely through pvp, that's still grinding for some people. Unless warhammer changed, as far as I know people with higher renown have a power advantage over people with lower renown, not only from the gear but also from the skill points.
I have no problem with any kind of pvp system. I think there's pros and cons in each. But the mmorpg I dreamed of isn't about balanced pvp, or purely skill based pvp. It's about power and resource, and people fighting over it. Because what is power or resource if there's no point on fighting over it? But admitely there's alot of pure pvp fan, and I understand why they want what they want.
For me there needs to be a gap, only the gap shouldn't that big that it's destroying PvP/RvR. In war there's the tiers and the bolster. They also recently changed the scenario brackets from lvl to rr brackets. Everyone same lvl, same eq, same skill points same whatever can work for arena battles but I wouldn't want to have it in RvR. Feeling your toon gaining in streght and potential while improving your gameplay skill wise is an important aspect in mmorpg for me.
What I enjoy as game is to fight for something and not just mindless beating on pukes for the sake of killing/rank or eq drops. There's a good reason why I came back to war once they revamped the campaign in 1.4.0 a year and a half ago.
Anways, ranting lol.
Well, the first you should do is probably straighten out the contradictions. It'll save time later.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
a) Easily fixed by having just visual progression and exclusive looking gear for "higher ranks"
b) If you have advantage in gear you defeat the purpose of "skill" in PvP. It's gear than wins you a fight, not your own abilities, meaning the PVP becomes a farse. It's not only not really exciting but also creates a huge difference between new and old players. If you are new to the game you pretty much have no chance to win at all only because your gear so weaker than everyone's else.
c) If they don't like PvP why should they? Since when PvP is essential? If a game aims to please as wide group of people as possible they should have plenty of activites other than PvP to cater to players that don't give a flying duck about PvP. If it's a PvP focused game, why people that don't like it even play it?
Exactly.
Who is going to have more time to grind out the gear?
And every single MMO you get more for winning than you do for losing a "match" or whatever, so the 20 year old with better hand eye coordination is going to win more often and thus get the better gear faster anyway, and they'll likely have more time so you are actually triple screwed.
Perhaps you don't understand what gear progression is. Gear progression is, quite simply, items getting better and better. I did not state the means for obtaining said items as that delves into another subject altogether. A game where one can craft a sword better than another contains gear progression. Furthermore, a game that contains gear degradation also implies gear progression, unless all the items in said game only had an aesthetic value, which I don't believe any game would contain such a feature.
He's looking for a game with a large, seamless open world.
What's unfair about the better player winning? To me that's the absolute definition of fair. Sounds to me like to you, fairness just means that you win.