This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.
Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?
In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.
All studio's should use blizzards dagoberts duck platform.
Pay for the box /check
Subscription /check
Cash shop /check
paying to get off death servers /check
Pay for bad expansions /check
This is what millions of people like looking at blizzards adicted playerbase.
What i want is:
Pay for the box
Pay for expansions
No pay to win shop
Hmm what game would the be ? :P
Dint read the wall of text of the OP.
But it think he fell with his head against a wall if he likes paying for a sub and get no contend within 9 months and still needs to pay 12.99 euro a month to play on death servers.
man this thread is still going ? you guys must really feel avid and passonite about this topic.
From my experience to chime in there is tons of games that many of us would of ever tried if they were not free to play and try out and there would really be no indie devs anymore making games as the only advertising you would see is from triple A mmorpgs on sites like this just like it was back in the days of eq and DAOC.
Heres some trivia for you old schoolers whom claim you come from the old days of eq and meridian etc. Does anyone here remember Rubies of Eventide? it was probably one of the first games to go free to play as it was created during the EQ and DAOC days. it wasnt free to play at first but i remember telling friends from daoc about and they were like what? thats a game ? another mmo? Anyways point is it was from an indie company and they had zero advertising anywhere on the net. It was a pay to play also at first also though you pay the fee to play monthly and get the game i think for 10 bucks , but this was back when subs were 12.95 and not 15 bucks.
Anyways back then only triple A mmorpgs got any airtime from websites like VN , IGN and other sites back then and no one ever heard about a lot of games that indie devs tried to release. Then the asian wave hit with runes of magic leading the charge and here we are now with enough weight to push lots of games that were triple A into alternative payment models and bring some life back into games that were okay and fun to play sometimes but not worth a sub fee etc.
As much as I hate asian grinders I contribute them to the reason why we have flexable payment models on games now here in the US and Europe. Yes some might be a complete ripff Im looking at you SOE! but some are pretty flexable and you can get into a game you never tried and never would of bought hadnt been for it being free with no time limit or real restrictions.
F2P makes money; gaming companies would not have it as a payment model if it did not make them money. As long as the cash cow keeps giving, they don't care about how it is affecting the genre. Corporate executives run MMO's; not devs, not designers and not community support.
MMO playing as we knew it has more or less died. MMO playing as you know it now is in the process of dying out to be replaced by an even more EzMMOde, socially networked, works on all platforms version.
i tried to read the Op but the wall-o-text was a tad jaded..
honestly there is nothing wrong with F2P.. the problem is too many companies try to make F2P generate more income per day then P2P games do.
hense why freeium are so hated. if i wanted to play a game where im paying 40bucks a day to be competitive in it.. i would.
fact of the matter is, too many f2p titles make a great game garbage by taking a balaced system and making it loaded to force you to pay. if they did away with that mentality and instead balanced it that you are not strapped in to a wheelchair every time you try to play the game "free" it wouldnt be so bad.
while alot of f2p games will wind up costing people more per year then a p2p game. most of the time that is because of the heavy loaded the game company uses to offset the cost of the systems.
to be honest the current P2P system is out of date and could be loads cheaper if the companies really wanted to. doing away with f2p wont solve anything. being f2p/p2p/b2p means nothing, quite simply WoW could be 100% p2p and still use a heavy handed item mall system. where you are forced to buy items to be competitive without even realizing it.
with more and more indie games going some sort of f2p, its quite possible more games will become f2p instead of p2p. or very least b2p instead. hell GW1 was 100% funded by b2p and expansions, so its not impossible to run a game kinda free.
This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.
Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?
In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.
If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Doesn't concern me. Research shows that there are only a small percentage of players (i.e. the whales) who pay a lot.
Are you going to outlaw alchohol too just because there are some alchoholics? We tried that before and you know how it ended.
And if some players (whales) want to subsidize my game, i am totally cool with it.
Plus, there is really nothing you can do about it .. aside from boycotting it. It is not like a few forum posts are going to reverse the trend.
Research?
There was a study done in 2011 about the MMO market. There were charts that showed the percentage of F2P players who did not spent money on cash shop, and the percentage of those who did (amongst many of the charts). Those charts appears to have been removed, likely because the company wants people to purchase the whole package to see them. The numbers showed that about 75% of F2P players did not spent any money, while about 15% spend money casually, and the remaining 10% spent a lot of money. The report was made by Newzoo.
Since that chart disappeared from the site, I've looked for alternatives and found this survey by the NPD Group that suggest that "40% of freemium gamers pay for in-game content".
This survey however doesn't go as far into the details as the research I mentionned in the first paragraph, but I guess it's better than nothing.
That chart shows the following:
Section 1 People using Browser vs Client:
17% only browser
71% both
12% only client
Section 2 People that play F2P vs People that play Pay to Play
74% only play free 2 play
9% play both
17% play only Pay to Play
Section 3 shows how many people don't pay, pay for F2P, pay for F2P and P2P, and P2P only out of earlier categories.
As you can tell by the chart at least half the people pay for F2P games (where did you get 75% from?). This research also doesn't take into account how long each of those players played. While this is a made up number, from my experience I would guess that more than 75% of those F2P numbers that DON'T pay, also didn't play the game after the first month. ie; they jumped in, created an account, discovered it wasn't for them and moved on. With the amount of people trying F2P games as they are easily accessible I think its logical. I for one have a buddy who jumps into a ton of F2P games. He doesn't stay in any past a month except for Silk Road, which he put money into.
Since you mentioned GW2, I will state that GW2 in many player's opinion is an AAA title that is B2P with a cash shop.
IF there will be more AAA titles that is B2P then I think this is going in a very good direction.
There are tons of F2P games that is not even close to AAA titles, in Asia, most of these F2P games are dime a dozen, they are only good for a few weeks and maybe months but thats it. It all depends on how much you invest in it money wise.
But if more AAA titles is coming out as B2P without Subs and with Cash Shops that doesn't P2W , then yes, this is exactly where I want the game industry to move toward.
There is no longer a need for Subs, Subs limits the amount of populations in a game, B2P will increase the population and make game worlds healthier and better.
But thats my opinion.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
You people need to realise where all this F2P crap is heading... Its heading to a point where it will make the original point of playing games, for the sake of progressing a character in virtual world, never ever matter again if we support these companies churning out this type of pay model.
I beg you all to think long and hard about how badly the furture of mmo's and gaming in general will be if we end up with a system like xbox uses and you pay for content packs and such... This is a disaster waiting to happen and I urge every single one of you gamers to boy cott any game coming out using the f2p model. You will end up paying more per year to pay to play these games than you ever would just by paying 15/bucks a month... Think about that for a second... That is roughly .50 secnts a day... Are you going to tell me you can't afford to scrounge up .50 cents a day to play a game for hours on end?
I realise Gw2 is coming out and everyone is saying "oh well, Ill just buy the box and never use the cash shop"... That might be the case where you end up grinding gold and trading for gems or cash shop currency but they will make it so you will be grinding insane amounts of time into these games. farming gold to trade for gems.. Trust me, games will not be games anymore.
Most of us play games to acquire loot and play through game content to attain the best gear and viritual characters we can with our time... This newly refined pay model will take all the fun out of games, when I can just buy my progress... How pathetic.. paying for progression in a game. Why bother playing? Maybe I'm getting too old (33) and its the new era of stupid taking over. I just don't get how anyone can not see where this will end up for us, the end users of the games..
I don't know what else to say, and Im certain there is more articulate gamers out there who feel the same way and who also have the foresight to see 5 years down the road when everything is free to play but pay to win... I'm not supporting guildwars 2 not because of the pay model, but simply because the game is utterly boring. The pay model sealed the deal though as I would have normally bought the box and played for 30 days to see where the game ended up taking me.. but the pay model of pay to win left a sour taste in my mouth. And you can bet your bottom dollar, they will continually add things into that cash shop to milk the end users and after a few months you will be hooked and develop an emotional tie to your guilds and friends, and "oh so and so bought that content pack maybe I should too or I won't be able to play with them.."
I'm telling you guys right now, this will not end well for gamers.... Don't support this garbage.. play the game all you want but don't spend a dime in those shops..
OP is 100% correct, and all these young kids are ruining the industry by supporting F2P without actually realizing that it isn't ACTUALLY free. It's a company trying to make more & more money while giving a larger range of access than PayToPlay ever did.
However, it was a mistake to mention GW2 prior to its release as all of the "HoneyMooning" GW2 people are trolling the forum atm .
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.
Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?
In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.
If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.
Yes, great post. I second that virtual beer.
You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.
Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...
DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...
UO, wasn't PayToWin...
SWG, wasn't PayToWin...
EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.
Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.
Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
As you can tell by the chart at least half the people pay for F2P games (where did you get 75% from?). This research also doesn't take into account how long each of those players played. While this is a made up number, from my experience I would guess that more than 75% of those F2P numbers that DON'T pay, also didn't play the game after the first month. ie; they jumped in, created an account, discovered it wasn't for them and moved on. With the amount of people trying F2P games as they are easily accessible I think its logical. I for one have a buddy who jumps into a ton of F2P games. He doesn't stay in any past a month except for Silk Road, which he put money into.
That is the point. You do not have any commitment and do not have to stay. That is why i like F2P.
And this "staying past a month" is a misnomer. No one is preventing a player to come back month later and play for a week. I do that from time to time.
The beauty of F2P is ....
1) FREE .. as research as shown most players don't play a cent
This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.
Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?
In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.
If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.
Yes, great post. I second that virtual beer.
You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.
Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...
DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...
UO, wasn't PayToWin...
SWG, wasn't PayToWin...
EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.
Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.
Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.
Lack of familiarity of the subject matter on your part does not constitute lying on someone else's.
Third party RMT was extremely big for the size of the market at the time, reaching over $1B/year by 2006, with not only the currency being a popular sale item but entire characters and accounts. Just because it wasn't run by the developers doesn't mean it wasn't an existing issue. Also, in some of the games, it wasn't even against the game rules.
There is a difference between acknowledging the presence of something and condoning/supporting it. Your insults and accusations were both unwarranted and unconstructive.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
With my power as a consumer, when a f2p game comes along that i want to play, I'll check it out. If I can avoid spending money on the game, all the better. If I just can't avoid paying, I'll leave and play something else. No harm, no foul.
In the case of GW2, I'll play as long as it's fun to me. If it's fun for a while, I'll buy some stuff on cash shop to say "thanks for this experience". Simple, yes? I'm a semi-budget-conscious consumer and if I can avoid spending money on a game that's no longer fun, I will, and if I have to pay a regular fee to play, then I damn well better play my money's worth and find fun while playing it; lest I waste my game time and unsub.
The social aspects may keep me for a time, only if we do fun stuff together. Thus, the game must be fun to play with others and be worth spending my money on the content. Again, simple.
I don't understand anyone touting gloom and doom for free to play games. They're free and if the consumer doesn't like their cash shops... they'll leave the game and never spend a dime. Pay to win is what it is, and most reasonable consumers realize it's a bad model and will leave. In the end, it's my disposable income, and I'll spend it how I please.
TL;DR
It's my money! I'll spend it how I want! Consumer powers activate!
PS: I'm not the most inteligent forum poster here, but I try.
You people need to realise where all this F2P crap is heading... Its heading to a point where it will make the original point of playing games, for the sake of progressing a character in virtual world, never ever matter again if we support these companies churning out this type of pay model.
I beg you all to think long and hard about how badly the furture of mmo's and gaming in general will be if we end up with a system like xbox uses and you pay for content packs and such... This is a disaster waiting to happen and I urge every single one of you gamers to boy cott any game coming out using the f2p model. You will end up paying more per year to pay to play these games than you ever would just by paying 15/bucks a month... Think about that for a second... That is roughly .50 secnts a day... Are you going to tell me you can't afford to scrounge up .50 cents a day to play a game for hours on end?
I realise Gw2 is coming out and everyone is saying "oh well, Ill just buy the box and never use the cash shop"... That might be the case where you end up grinding gold and trading for gems or cash shop currency but they will make it so you will be grinding insane amounts of time into these games. farming gold to trade for gems.. Trust me, games will not be games anymore.
Most of us play games to acquire loot and play through game content to attain the best gear and viritual characters we can with our time... This newly refined pay model will take all the fun out of games, when I can just buy my progress... How pathetic.. paying for progression in a game. Why bother playing? Maybe I'm getting too old (33) and its the new era of stupid taking over. I just don't get how anyone can not see where this will end up for us, the end users of the games..
I don't know what else to say, and Im certain there is more articulate gamers out there who feel the same way and who also have the foresight to see 5 years down the road when everything is free to play but pay to win... I'm not supporting guildwars 2 not because of the pay model, but simply because the game is utterly boring. The pay model sealed the deal though as I would have normally bought the box and played for 30 days to see where the game ended up taking me.. but the pay model of pay to win left a sour taste in my mouth. And you can bet your bottom dollar, they will continually add things into that cash shop to milk the end users and after a few months you will be hooked and develop an emotional tie to your guilds and friends, and "oh so and so bought that content pack maybe I should too or I won't be able to play with them.."
I'm telling you guys right now, this will not end well for gamers.... Don't support this garbage.. play the game all you want but don't spend a dime in those shops..
I have played loads of games and tryed many so called F2P games,tho I have never played a game that realy is free to play. Most of the time the free to playe games are more expensive than subscription games if you want acsess to all content and the good gear.
As you can tell by the chart at least half the people pay for F2P games (where did you get 75% from?). This research also doesn't take into account how long each of those players played. While this is a made up number, from my experience I would guess that more than 75% of those F2P numbers that DON'T pay, also didn't play the game after the first month. ie; they jumped in, created an account, discovered it wasn't for them and moved on. With the amount of people trying F2P games as they are easily accessible I think its logical. I for one have a buddy who jumps into a ton of F2P games. He doesn't stay in any past a month except for Silk Road, which he put money into.
That is the point. You do not have any commitment and do not have to stay. That is why i like F2P.
And this "staying past a month" is a misnomer. No one is preventing a player to come back month later and play for a week. I do that from time to time.
The beauty of F2P is ....
1) FREE .. as research as shown most players don't play a cent
2) No commitment
3) Easy in, easy out.
So basically you have no idea what the OP was trying to articulate? Your graphs proved nothing at all, and as mentioned by another poster hardly relate as well. Oh well, enjoy the mass of F2P sub-quality games heading your way that you won't last in for long. As I still firmly believe, things will get better after they get worse. It's just an industry trend.
Heck, the US automakers had to learn the hard way. Now its the game industries turn. This time Indie developers will be the imports lol.
Maybe I'm getting too old (33) and its the new era of stupid taking over.
I lol'd.
Certainly, I am no fan of games converting from subscriptions to F2P models. I enjoyed LotRO way back in the day before it's expansions, but not after it was diced up into tiny chunks of unlockable content- just not the same experience for me. I think you are foolish OP for turning your nose up at GW2 B2P model.
For those who can't read.. Don't support free to play, because nothing is free and you will pay more in the long run. You new era of gamers are single handidly destroying mmo's.. Any old school mmo'ers I know for fact would never support this crap.
Btw, I have a great job and could more than afford to pay to win at any game... the point is, whats the point of playing then?
One point you make that I can agree with "nothing is free" but having said that you may as well have made a post about how we all need to realize the sky is blue.
I don't think there are many people out here who don't realize the devs WANT us to put money into the game but I'm having a hard time connecting how that is forcing anyone to do that a free to play game is free to play unless you want to "insert item,function here". The end result still is you either find the game worth the money you invest in it or you don't.
the problem with ideas like yours is you somehow assume we are more sheep than you are and will simply give away money without considering whether we personally feel the investment is worth it and I don't see anything that shows you as more intelligent than me or any of the other people who frequent this site including those who support free to play games.
At 15.00 a month the standard sub based game costs close to two hundred dollars a year maybe people who support free to play games should start bitching and moaning about why we are out here paying 60.00 bucks for a box and then close to 200.00 a year for it?
We get it you don't feel you are strong enough to indulge in games like LOTRO without being drawn into spending more than that 200.00 a year but who are you or anyone else for that matter to tell other people they are equally as weak willed?
Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Using staying "competitive" in the sense of beingin the top few percent in terms of content progression and gear upgrades. To stay in that top percent of players in a F2P game you end up actually spending more per month than in a subscription based MMO. But you're saying no no no that's not true? Really? Have you played Lotro, STO, DDO recently?
LOTRO and DDO, yes. STO isn't my thing, so no. Can you link to the data you're referring to? The 5-10% I referred to what the percent of people that pay anything in a F2P MMO. It's a consistent number across almost all F2P MMOs. You're stating that those players are the 'top' players. Please support that. Also include...top of what, actually?
Read their player forums with people upset at how much extra their required to pay just to stay at the top levels of competition? That kind of money requirement is ridiculous. It makes no sense.
If they are competing against the other players in LOTRO and DDO, that's an arbitrary goal they have set and not part of any coded or intended gameplay. If either game has introduced some gameplay that requires you to compete against the others, and that competition requiring the expenses you suggest, please link to it.
And yet most F2P games with cash shops end up going down this road in order to create a demand for the items their selling in their cash shop. It's definitely not parlor tricks. Players on the MMOs own forums are complaining about this insane pricing. Do you just not follow these F2P games or something?
I definitely follow them. It's part of my job to. It's why I am very interested in what you're reading that's leading you to this rather odd conclusions.
I've seen countless legitimate threads over and over, for years. Those above are just after a 2 minute google search. I think it makes sense that the people who pay more money in STO, DDO, and Lotro have a small (sometimes significant) advantage over people who don't pay anything at all. That is a trade off in F2P games. You wouldn't have thread after thread of people complaining about players being able to buy gear, items, abilities, or other perks that give them an advantage in these game's forums and on blogs.
Yes, it's this is a business. These companies have to make money to keep the game alive. Are they going to put an item, ability, or perk in the shop that's convenient and quicker to get by buying in the shop rather than grinding for it in the game? YES, yes they will. Is it going to be expensive? YES, yes it will. This is what people are complaining about. It's just something that comes with F2P games.
And yes, people in MMOs are competitive with each other. Even with game mechanics that help them to be cooperative instead of competitive, many players will instictively be competitive within these cooperative frameworks. That's human nature in gaming. Just like artists are naturally sensitive about their work, players are naturally competitive about there gear, items, and perks.
We can't pretend that this isn't an continual issue with F2P games in western culture. Eastern gaming market might be different. It might be more socially expected that people who have more money (and thus social stuats) should be able to buy items and have a slight competitive or status advantage vs other players in an online game. I'm not sure it will ever be an issue that western culture gets over though.
This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.
Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?
In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.
If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.
Yes, great post. I second that virtual beer.
You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.
Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...
DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...
UO, wasn't PayToWin...
SWG, wasn't PayToWin...
EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.
Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.
Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.
The point i was trying to make, that you obviously missed, is that the payment model does not matter. It's how the game's mechanics and economy are built and how they discourage or support "pay to win". Those old games such as EQ, SWG, FFXI, and so on with a player run economy were run by RMT and people supporting it. That's the definition of pay to win.
I didn't support it then and i sure as hell don't now. What i am saying is that MMO's are a lot less pay to win now due to the mechanics that take the importance off in game gold and place it elsewhere. This of course excludes all the Korean grinders and is more about the top AAA MMO's.
Being on equal footing because you pay a monthly fee is an illusion.
Comments
This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.
Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?
In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.
All studio's should use blizzards dagoberts duck platform.
Pay for the box /check
Subscription /check
Cash shop /check
paying to get off death servers /check
Pay for bad expansions /check
This is what millions of people like looking at blizzards adicted playerbase.
What i want is:
Pay for the box
Pay for expansions
No pay to win shop
Hmm what game would the be ? :P
Dint read the wall of text of the OP.
But it think he fell with his head against a wall if he likes paying for a sub and get no contend within 9 months and still needs to pay 12.99 euro a month to play on death servers.
man this thread is still going ? you guys must really feel avid and passonite about this topic.
From my experience to chime in there is tons of games that many of us would of ever tried if they were not free to play and try out and there would really be no indie devs anymore making games as the only advertising you would see is from triple A mmorpgs on sites like this just like it was back in the days of eq and DAOC.
Heres some trivia for you old schoolers whom claim you come from the old days of eq and meridian etc. Does anyone here remember Rubies of Eventide? it was probably one of the first games to go free to play as it was created during the EQ and DAOC days. it wasnt free to play at first but i remember telling friends from daoc about and they were like what? thats a game ? another mmo? Anyways point is it was from an indie company and they had zero advertising anywhere on the net. It was a pay to play also at first also though you pay the fee to play monthly and get the game i think for 10 bucks , but this was back when subs were 12.95 and not 15 bucks.
Anyways back then only triple A mmorpgs got any airtime from websites like VN , IGN and other sites back then and no one ever heard about a lot of games that indie devs tried to release. Then the asian wave hit with runes of magic leading the charge and here we are now with enough weight to push lots of games that were triple A into alternative payment models and bring some life back into games that were okay and fun to play sometimes but not worth a sub fee etc.
As much as I hate asian grinders I contribute them to the reason why we have flexable payment models on games now here in the US and Europe. Yes some might be a complete ripff Im looking at you SOE! but some are pretty flexable and you can get into a game you never tried and never would of bought hadnt been for it being free with no time limit or real restrictions.
F2P makes money; gaming companies would not have it as a payment model if it did not make them money. As long as the cash cow keeps giving, they don't care about how it is affecting the genre. Corporate executives run MMO's; not devs, not designers and not community support.
MMO playing as we knew it has more or less died. MMO playing as you know it now is in the process of dying out to be replaced by an even more EzMMOde, socially networked, works on all platforms version.
i tried to read the Op but the wall-o-text was a tad jaded..
honestly there is nothing wrong with F2P.. the problem is too many companies try to make F2P generate more income per day then P2P games do.
hense why freeium are so hated. if i wanted to play a game where im paying 40bucks a day to be competitive in it.. i would.
fact of the matter is, too many f2p titles make a great game garbage by taking a balaced system and making it loaded to force you to pay. if they did away with that mentality and instead balanced it that you are not strapped in to a wheelchair every time you try to play the game "free" it wouldnt be so bad.
while alot of f2p games will wind up costing people more per year then a p2p game. most of the time that is because of the heavy loaded the game company uses to offset the cost of the systems.
to be honest the current P2P system is out of date and could be loads cheaper if the companies really wanted to. doing away with f2p wont solve anything. being f2p/p2p/b2p means nothing, quite simply WoW could be 100% p2p and still use a heavy handed item mall system. where you are forced to buy items to be competitive without even realizing it.
with more and more indie games going some sort of f2p, its quite possible more games will become f2p instead of p2p. or very least b2p instead. hell GW1 was 100% funded by b2p and expansions, so its not impossible to run a game kinda free.
Free2play also ruins your brand.
If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That chart shows the following:
Section 1 People using Browser vs Client:
17% only browser
71% both
12% only client
Section 2 People that play F2P vs People that play Pay to Play
74% only play free 2 play
9% play both
17% play only Pay to Play
Section 3 shows how many people don't pay, pay for F2P, pay for F2P and P2P, and P2P only out of earlier categories.
As you can tell by the chart at least half the people pay for F2P games (where did you get 75% from?). This research also doesn't take into account how long each of those players played. While this is a made up number, from my experience I would guess that more than 75% of those F2P numbers that DON'T pay, also didn't play the game after the first month. ie; they jumped in, created an account, discovered it wasn't for them and moved on. With the amount of people trying F2P games as they are easily accessible I think its logical. I for one have a buddy who jumps into a ton of F2P games. He doesn't stay in any past a month except for Silk Road, which he put money into.
Since you mentioned GW2, I will state that GW2 in many player's opinion is an AAA title that is B2P with a cash shop.
IF there will be more AAA titles that is B2P then I think this is going in a very good direction.
There are tons of F2P games that is not even close to AAA titles, in Asia, most of these F2P games are dime a dozen, they are only good for a few weeks and maybe months but thats it. It all depends on how much you invest in it money wise.
But if more AAA titles is coming out as B2P without Subs and with Cash Shops that doesn't P2W , then yes, this is exactly where I want the game industry to move toward.
There is no longer a need for Subs, Subs limits the amount of populations in a game, B2P will increase the population and make game worlds healthier and better.
But thats my opinion.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
OP is 100% correct, and all these young kids are ruining the industry by supporting F2P without actually realizing that it isn't ACTUALLY free. It's a company trying to make more & more money while giving a larger range of access than PayToPlay ever did.
However, it was a mistake to mention GW2 prior to its release as all of the "HoneyMooning" GW2 people are trolling the forum atm
.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.
Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...
DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...
UO, wasn't PayToWin...
SWG, wasn't PayToWin...
EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.
Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.
Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
That is the point. You do not have any commitment and do not have to stay. That is why i like F2P.
And this "staying past a month" is a misnomer. No one is preventing a player to come back month later and play for a week. I do that from time to time.
The beauty of F2P is ....
1) FREE .. as research as shown most players don't play a cent
2) No commitment
3) Easy in, easy out.
Lack of familiarity of the subject matter on your part does not constitute lying on someone else's.
Third party RMT was extremely big for the size of the market at the time, reaching over $1B/year by 2006, with not only the currency being a popular sale item but entire characters and accounts. Just because it wasn't run by the developers doesn't mean it wasn't an existing issue. Also, in some of the games, it wasn't even against the game rules.
There is a difference between acknowledging the presence of something and condoning/supporting it. Your insults and accusations were both unwarranted and unconstructive.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
@OP
With my power as a consumer, when a f2p game comes along that i want to play, I'll check it out. If I can avoid spending money on the game, all the better. If I just can't avoid paying, I'll leave and play something else. No harm, no foul.
In the case of GW2, I'll play as long as it's fun to me. If it's fun for a while, I'll buy some stuff on cash shop to say "thanks for this experience". Simple, yes? I'm a semi-budget-conscious consumer and if I can avoid spending money on a game that's no longer fun, I will, and if I have to pay a regular fee to play, then I damn well better play my money's worth and find fun while playing it; lest I waste my game time and unsub.
The social aspects may keep me for a time, only if we do fun stuff together. Thus, the game must be fun to play with others and be worth spending my money on the content. Again, simple.
I don't understand anyone touting gloom and doom for free to play games. They're free and if the consumer doesn't like their cash shops... they'll leave the game and never spend a dime. Pay to win is what it is, and most reasonable consumers realize it's a bad model and will leave. In the end, it's my disposable income, and I'll spend it how I please.
TL;DR
It's my money! I'll spend it how I want! Consumer powers activate!
PS: I'm not the most inteligent forum poster here, but I try.
I have played loads of games and tryed many so called F2P games,tho I have never played a game that realy is free to play. Most of the time the free to playe games are more expensive than subscription games if you want acsess to all content and the good gear.
So for now I stay avay from F2P.
So basically you have no idea what the OP was trying to articulate? Your graphs proved nothing at all, and as mentioned by another poster hardly relate as well. Oh well, enjoy the mass of F2P sub-quality games heading your way that you won't last in for long. As I still firmly believe, things will get better after they get worse. It's just an industry trend.
Heck, the US automakers had to learn the hard way. Now its the game industries turn. This time Indie developers will be the imports lol.
I lol'd.
Certainly, I am no fan of games converting from subscriptions to F2P models. I enjoyed LotRO way back in the day before it's expansions, but not after it was diced up into tiny chunks of unlockable content- just not the same experience for me. I think you are foolish OP for turning your nose up at GW2 B2P model.
One point you make that I can agree with "nothing is free" but having said that you may as well have made a post about how we all need to realize the sky is blue.
I don't think there are many people out here who don't realize the devs WANT us to put money into the game but I'm having a hard time connecting how that is forcing anyone to do that a free to play game is free to play unless you want to "insert item,function here". The end result still is you either find the game worth the money you invest in it or you don't.
the problem with ideas like yours is you somehow assume we are more sheep than you are and will simply give away money without considering whether we personally feel the investment is worth it and I don't see anything that shows you as more intelligent than me or any of the other people who frequent this site including those who support free to play games.
At 15.00 a month the standard sub based game costs close to two hundred dollars a year maybe people who support free to play games should start bitching and moaning about why we are out here paying 60.00 bucks for a box and then close to 200.00 a year for it?
We get it you don't feel you are strong enough to indulge in games like LOTRO without being drawn into spending more than that 200.00 a year but who are you or anyone else for that matter to tell other people they are equally as weak willed?
http://thallians.blogspot.com/2010/10/lotro-gets-expensive.html
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?387714-Legacy-Tier-Scrolls-are-too-expensive...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=242114
https://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=382556&page=3&langid=2
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=308521
http://berserkerkitten.blogspot.com/2012/02/sto-pwe-wtf.html
I've seen countless legitimate threads over and over, for years. Those above are just after a 2 minute google search. I think it makes sense that the people who pay more money in STO, DDO, and Lotro have a small (sometimes significant) advantage over people who don't pay anything at all. That is a trade off in F2P games. You wouldn't have thread after thread of people complaining about players being able to buy gear, items, abilities, or other perks that give them an advantage in these game's forums and on blogs.
Yes, it's this is a business. These companies have to make money to keep the game alive. Are they going to put an item, ability, or perk in the shop that's convenient and quicker to get by buying in the shop rather than grinding for it in the game? YES, yes they will. Is it going to be expensive? YES, yes it will. This is what people are complaining about. It's just something that comes with F2P games.
And yes, people in MMOs are competitive with each other. Even with game mechanics that help them to be cooperative instead of competitive, many players will instictively be competitive within these cooperative frameworks. That's human nature in gaming. Just like artists are naturally sensitive about their work, players are naturally competitive about there gear, items, and perks.
We can't pretend that this isn't an continual issue with F2P games in western culture. Eastern gaming market might be different. It might be more socially expected that people who have more money (and thus social stuats) should be able to buy items and have a slight competitive or status advantage vs other players in an online game. I'm not sure it will ever be an issue that western culture gets over though.
The point i was trying to make, that you obviously missed, is that the payment model does not matter. It's how the game's mechanics and economy are built and how they discourage or support "pay to win". Those old games such as EQ, SWG, FFXI, and so on with a player run economy were run by RMT and people supporting it. That's the definition of pay to win.
I didn't support it then and i sure as hell don't now. What i am saying is that MMO's are a lot less pay to win now due to the mechanics that take the importance off in game gold and place it elsewhere. This of course excludes all the Korean grinders and is more about the top AAA MMO's.
Being on equal footing because you pay a monthly fee is an illusion.
yeah im like totally forced to use cashshop for convenience and appearance garbage.
I think a lot of people here are just delusional, or have a strong case of wishful thinking.
It is quite clear that F2P is a trend, and more and more MMOs are going in this direction. And there are reasons why they are popular.
It is better for many players because a) you can choose not to pay by giving up some part of the game, and b) there is no commitment.
It is better for devs because it bootstrap a player base much more effectively, and on average makes more than a sub model for the same game.