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Ground targetable AOE spells
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
These games have become utterly useless in the last BWE. (PvE)
First of with the current UI they are hard and timeconsuming to target, sometimes espescially when moving up a hill with your character impossible due to akward camera behaviour
And when you finally have cast them, espescially when solo, all the mobs immediately move out of the Area of Effect. While previous BWE all mobs allways kept standing inside, not they all move out, this is pretty bad AI, i hope their AI programming allows them to create a middle of the road where certain mobs have a % chance to notice the AoE effect and move out of it.
Both these issues need to be tackled before release, did anyone hear Arenanets stance about this?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
Regarding the first issue...are you aware of the "fast cast ground targeting" option in the game? Basically once enabled, it casts the spell wherever you're pointing. No "Hit button, move mouse to location, click again to cast"
Regarding AI..yeah, they RUN from AoEs now. Which means you have to be clever with terrain, or use crowd control to keep them in place.
Note: Possible exploit: Ranged can drop an AOE on themselves and the mob seems like it will in at least some occasions refuse to get in melee range of the caster. I noticed as a Guardian if I case the one symbol spell that burns others and heals me, enemies tended to stay out of if.
I much prefer the AI actually being a little smarter like this. Just apply a cc like a snare within the AOE.
GW fans will be used to this behavior in vanquishing and hardmode areas.
I'm sorry, also I'm not sure if English is your primary language or something, however this needs to be reworded to be understandable. I cannot tell if you're complaining about the NCP AI avoiding AOE, or if you're saying that they're not doing it enough.
Also, how is the UI negatively effecting AOE spells? The UI is currently very fluid and works great, but there's no direct spell impact that I can understand. That is, unless you're talking about channeling spells? Again, slighly confused on the wording here.
As for my initial review of the enemy AI and it's reaction to AOE: spectacular challenge! Yes, it's a bit difficult to play around, but just as a player dodges an incoming attack, so does the enemy. This is GREAT! It's one step closer to making the PvE similar to PvP in enemy reactiveness. I know, there are some PvE'ers out there that just want simple smash-um-up easy to kill enemies, but there are some 50+ games out there that have that; this game isn't one of them.
I think you understood exactly what i meant.
Did you ever try to use a groundtargetable AoE? sometimes its near impossible to reach the point you want. Thats because of the strange autocamera behaviour. Play an ElE and you will know
And concerning the AoE and the AI turning it intoo a spectacular challenge. Its just bad AI programming. Not even players notice every AoE they are in. cating an AoE DPS spell on top of myself make it work like a fear effect, chasing mobs away from me. If bugs should make things challenging, then we better quit before we started. Dont think Arenanet will agree with you on this.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I personally never had a problem with chaos storm on my mesmer...but that was really the only GTAoE I used this BWE.
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Well suffice to say I completely disagree with you about the mobs moving out of AoE. In fact I want to see even more AI improvements like mobs going into cover, groups coordinating by flanking, use of combo fields themselves. The more realistic behavior the better as far as I'm concerned.
About AE targeting, never really had a problem. Sometimes I used the fast casting and sometimes I didn't, depending on what build I was using.
So far AI seems to be pretty basic and might turn to be one of the weakest points of the game.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
mmo AI is weak in general, I'd say GW2's AI is actually an improvement on most mmos I've seen.
I think it only looks like that because of how the events are scripted. I havent actually seen really good AI in single mobs.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Try the PvP practice NPCs in the mists.
Really? mobs running out from AE, others kiting you, and a lot of the human mobs will dodge out of your attacks. Seems quite better than other mmos I've played.
Mob's that take damage and don't react...basically mindless automatons = Bad AI
Mob's that are programmed to react to a situation, similarly to how a human would = Good AI
I don't understand why an AI that can actually react to a situation, instead of just sitting still and letting you kill it...is considered bad AI programming. It's actually the opposite and all developers strive to create NPC's that act as if there is a human playing the character, to add realism and challenge.
I was impreseed the first time I saw it because...oh no...it made me have to think strategically instead of just spamming skills like ever other mindless mmo out there.
This^
Holy crap did I get rolled once or twice.
If all the mobs at 80 are like that, this is going to be the most difficult and challenging MMO ever made.
Back on the OP's original point...
I noticed the same issues with my Elementalist. All of the ground targeting along with trying to move and dodge and strife usually meant they missed.
The smart targetting option doesn't work for me because it's almost the same as the current system... select an area on the screen.
All they really need to fix it is to allow an option to "activate AoE on current target" though... an option, not a hotkey combo (like shift-activate).
To me that would solve the problem. Until then I'm not sure.. I kind of avoid using those attacks in most circumstances.
OP, it sounds like you are whining because they made the AI clever and now you have to actually THINK about your attacks instead of just spamming AOEs and expecting the mobs to stand still in them whilst getting killed?
Personally I love the way that the AI in GW2 (and GW1) works, mobs just standing there while you kill them, like in SWTOR is stupid
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I'd rather not take away something that is another factor in the application of player skill to success in combat.
I had zero (0) problems hitting mobs and players with AoE when needed on my Guardian, Mesmer, and Warrior last BWE.
Sure, sometimes they'd avoid them or dodge/move out of them, but I thought "hey, that's cool they are smart enough to do that."
I like that I have to adapt and change tactics and have some CHALLENGE instead of simply facerolling cooldowns to win - even in PvE.
I am a HArdcore old school key board user. I tie eveyrthing to my keyboard including pitching my camera up and down.
The only time i use my mouse is to A) target something far away, or
pan my camera. Otherwise I never touch it.
After nut hugging the thought of the elementalist all winter then actauly playing it, i HATED it. I cant stand half of my spells are ground targeted.
I dumped the Ele completly and fell in love with the ranger. its the Range dmg I love, with almost no ground targetting. i cant wait to play the ranger again.
So i understand. I hate ground targeted spells. I feel so clunky having to fumble for my mouse and place them. Im far more fluid with just using the keyboard.
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The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
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Edit: posted again under so deleted this.
I had lot of fun with it. Trying to predict where the mobs will move and throwing stuff in that direction. Sometimes it would miss but when I hit it was great.
I played Engineer and at times I used grenade kit which is 1-5 all ground based AOE attacks.
Way I did is just press attack I wanted twice very fast. It would instantly drop grenade wherever my mouse pointer was. If you ask me that is very good way.
And that way you can, if you press attack one time and see that mob moved, wait a second or two, aim again and just hit same attack againand result in executing aoe. If you combine it with clicking depending on situation it's very usefull.
Double tapping worked most of times for me at least with grenades.
If your complaint is mostly about ground AoEs casting too slowly, then try the 'fast cast ground AoE' option in the preferences. It will fire them instantly, but you lose the green circle UI and will instead just cast where your mouse is pointing.
As for mobs moving out of the AoE, this has always been a function of the AI from GW1. Mobs are generally smarter than in other MMOs, and will do things like moving out of prolonged AoE, going after the target with the lowest HP, and changing targets to someone that is healing a lot.
The trick is that the game gives you the tools to deal w/ this. If you are using skills like Meteor Shower, it's often best to start w/ a stun (static field) or snare (frozen ground, unsteady ground, shockwave) and layer the meteor shower on top of that.
- If you are talking about skills like dragon's tooth, or ice spike, then you have to lead those casts a bit, and kite the mobs into it (takes a bit of practice & timing).
Other skills like Lava font, can be used both offensively and defensively. For example, if an enemy is actively trying to avoid it, then keep the AoE in between the enemy and yourself. Or if it's an enemy that uses ranged attacks, you can use them to force the enemy to choose between attacking you, or interrupting their big attacks and fleeing.
If you don't like this, then there are other types of AoE that are a little easier to control. For example the necro has AoE that is basically a once-off. It hits once, and then dispenses it's full effects over time (via conditions). You also have ones like the thieve's smoke field, which is good for casting AoE blindness on your targets (and you can hide in it to avoid taking dmg for a short while).
There's a lot of different ways to usethe AoE in this game. Trying to use Meteor Shower as a sure-fire AoE pwnage skill has always been tough in GW. It's one of the reasons why it's so powerful. Things will actively try and avoid it, because it's such a powerful attack, unless you take measures to ensure that they can't.
The devs posted the fleeing from AOE by all mobs was a mistake, its a new behavior, but not all mobs are supposed to be smart enough to do it.
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I agree, you just had to be a bit smarter about how you used it. I found the AI could be used to your advantage especially in creating some breathing room. This AI was actually present in the original Guild Wars and made PvE interesting and calculated.
I would expect any intelligent creature to run out of an area that was hurting it.
That was not the AI.... that sounded more like abusing a bug.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I really like this, actually. You still do damage, even if they avoid a tick or two and you can really use the time they spend moving out of the AoE to your advantage. It requires a little more strategy, so some people will be slow to adapt, but I think it's pretty awesome!
I'm pretty sure a Dagger/Dagger Fire Spec Elementalist will be my main character at release. I can already see way I can use the new AI to my advantage, while making combat even more dynamic.
You have to also realize that part of what increases the challenge level of combat as you reach higher level content is AI challenges. You should probably learn to adapt to the "out of AoE" AI asap, because I anticipate that further into the game the AI is going to be even smarter, with a lot better use of Dodge rolls and their own multi skill and meneuver tactics.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Abusing a bug? Please.
Using AEs should be a viable tactic to make things run away from you. Forcing them into a corner or into a trap by diverting them. Thats a tactic, not an exploit. You would expect a player to do the same.
Is it abusing a bug to make someone run away from your AEs in PvP into a trap? No. Don't be silly.
If fire started spewing out over your head, would you just stand there in the middle of it? Anything that would just stand there and cop it isnt very intelligent at all.