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Open world PvP without ganking. Is it possible?
Creslin321
Member Posts: 5,359
When MMORPGs first became popular with the release of UO...I think that many of us had a dream of how the PvP in the game would work. We thought that PvP would help support the whole ideal of a virtual world. Feuds would be born, mighty heroes would rise to defeat villians, wicked people would methodically plot robberies or murders, while peacekeepers tried to stop them. And every aspect of these scenarios would have created by players...it would have been marvelous.
But this isn't really what happened. What happened, was ganking. Many players quickly learned that the benefits of rampant player killing far outweighed the penalties, and since UO was basically just a game, many people had no moral qualms with mass murder. So the strong preyed upon the weak, and I think the dream was killed. Instead of really interesting scenarios playing out, players were just constantly in fear of a "PK" killing them and then mocking them in l33t sp34k while they were essentially minding their own business.
And that brings me to the question I would like to pose for discussion.
Is it possible to have a true open-world PvP system without ganking? And if so, how could it be accomplished?
I don't think we have ever seen an open-world PvP system that really "works" in that it makes the original dream of open-world PvP supporting the virtual world come true. Every open-world PvP system I have seen either devolves into ganking, or is so limited that the open-world PvP system basically boils down to specific areas where people go to kill each other.
PvP "zones" are a popular "solution" to the ganking problem, and while they can be fun, they don't really accomplish the goal that I think open-world PvP was originally intended for. So I would like to stay away from people saying that they are the solution.
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Comments
No.
In a non-consencual PvP environment ganking is 'smart PvP'. If the objective is to kill the opponent then you do it in the most efficient way and with the least risk to yourself.
Even from a 'good guy' perspective ganking is the prefered method. If I am going about my business and another player threatens me, I am going to try to kill him as fast as possible so I can get back to doing what I was doing. Essentially I will swat him like a fly because the guy is an annoyance.
If you want PvP with firmer rules and different 'skill tests' you need to do it in battlegrounds and arenas where people accept the handicaps that are required for the fights to happen a certain way.
Thread is flawed, there are no non-combatants in open world PvP
[ArcheAge, WoD, Embers of Caerus (repop?) all have OWPvP WITH CONSEQUENCES planned, but there has yet to be a game with any actual consequences in a freeform pvp system of any kind that I am aware of.]
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
As long as you can have many people attacking one person, there will be ganking.
I suppose there could be some artificial constraint where only a group can attack an equal group but I don't really see that fostering open world pvp.
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Nope. But ganking can be penalized by in game mechanics. Could even spawn a whole group of highwaymen that would be forced to live outside of large cities, praying on those passing by, as well as a group of guards acted out by players who would offer protection services.
This, however requires a polished, high quality sandbox game and a lot of thought behind it. Game like this would require some sort of player controlled zones so the bandits (gankers/PKers) could establish their camps and protect them from people that prefered to play the "good guys".
I think from the current MMOs EVE comes closest to it if you factor in how nullsec works, but the system could still be greately improved and transfered to more "ground" type MMO.
No and nor should it be, although your definition of ganking seems to be a hell of a catch all. Rampant pking is just rampant pking. Ganking is merely heavily lopsided combat, you can get that in non open world games.
Can an open world pvp game limit people killing players new to the game? Yes.
Can an open world pvp game prevent people from murdering everyone everywhere without consequence? Yes.
For those that can't abide the fact of being jumped at all, at any point, then open world will not work for them and it is not worth trying to make it work for them by overly neutering it.
Personally I wouldn't have any levels or character skill gains. Just have progression based upon territory and economic increases.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Big problem is in games like in WoW where a lower level players just can't possibly kill a high level, even if the high level does nothing while the low level one keeps attacking. One way I see that could work would be by actually de-leveling people based on the area they're in, kinda like GW2 does for PvE. That way if you attack someone, they have a chance to fight back, and if it's a big group, well, try to organize players to go hunt for them.
Setting people as PK might work, but needs to be designed so it can't be exploited. In AoC, for example, there were groups of low level players in the PvP servers that went around griefing by attacking higher level players. If the high level one fought back, then some of the low levels that weren't grouped would jump in to be hit by their attack (attacks in AoC aren't targetted), setting the high level one as a PK.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
I don't think so. Any such system would be quite clumsy and therefore highly exploitable, I'd imagine. Perhaps some combat mechanics or combination of those would discourage ganking, I don't know. I don't even know where to begin.
A simple, elegant solution to this would be a holy grail of some sort I bet, but I don't think there is one.
There are things that could reduce ganking:
This just off the top of my head. I admit some of those only work against zerging - they do not adress the 2v1 gank situation for example.
(*) An excelleng example of this would be Wargame: European Escalation where zerging simply does not work. Sure Abrams M1 may be the best tank in the game, especially in large numbers, but once those beasts run out of fuel (which they usually do about halfway the map) they are sitting ducks - damn expensive ones too. I've won many matches just by slowing the tank rush down and avoiding head-on confrontation until they've run out of fuel in which point you can finish them off with artillery.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ooh, a new idea! How 'bout a radar? Just see where enemies are. It would kill stalking, decrease fog of war etc. but wouldn't it also prevent ganking?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
One thing I've thought about is having PvP damage be related to the level of the person being attacked, not the level of the person doing the attacking (if you have a level based system). For instance, if a level 1 player attacks a level 80 player, the level 80 player takes level 80 damage, not level 1 damage. The level 1 player would take level 1 damage, not level 80 damage. The level 80 player still has an advantage in skills, but not in damage. A bunch of level 1 players could conceivably take down that level 80 player.
I'm not sure about a PK flag. How do you distinguish between killing a player that needs killing and a player that should be left alone? Any system you come up with will be exploitable. There are just far more people willing to look for holes in such a system than people capable of plugging the holes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
To truly have that dream society that you have stated, there must be a system in place where there is benefits to people protecting the weak. Where Killing the PK actually means something instead of having them instant spawn.
Here is my take on how it will work.
1) Make PKing a actual Class
2) Make all those that decided to PK become a Hardcore character
3) Making hunting down PKer rewarding, as well as an actual Job Class that has the tools to combat all the Pker skills.
4) Making it so that there is a Bounty System, but if the PKer decided to stop, they need to pay 2x their bounty to erase their Hardcore status and lose all the PK skills and Class Points.
5) Each players has unique trophies, like dog tags, when a PK kills a player, he collects that dog tag and it refreshes every 24 hours. So you can't camp a single player for benefits, but you can do it for fun. To prevent farming PK skills.
With these in place, not only will PKing become an event, Hunting down the PKer is also an event. Sure if you want to gather your 200 friends to gank others, I can gather 200 players to gank the PKers, and since my 200 friends can respawn, all PKers must fleet or get killed and have to start all over again.
I think many PK players will want to do that, because it actually provides excitment, and if their bounty is high, its definitely something to be proud of.
Then you will have Hunters protecting the weak, PK hunting the weak, and Hunters hunting the PK. PK guilds would be set up, Hunter guilds would exists it will become an society within itself.
PS: to clarify, PK will have its own skill up tree with specific skills to kill other players and escape from death, and Hunters have specific skill tress that counters those PK skills to hunt down the PKers. But They only level their PK status by killing other players, and Hunters skills up by hunting PK and killing them.
Sure people that have over 2000 friends can farm PK points, but really if you have 2000 friends that is willing to get killed every 24 hours for you, I am extremely happy for you, its really something to be proud of.
PSS: Oh, and add items that can cover up the fact that you are an PKer, but still keeps your hardcore status or not. But make it extremely expensive and only bought off an Elusive character like an Underground Guild for killers. So that you can still party with other players and stuff. Or make it an extremely hard skill to get that only available when you kill 1k players or something like that. It will be fun to have hidden PK in your guild that turns around and kills everyone.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Anarchy Online had a system that discouraged ganking. You could only pvp against players within a certain range of your own level. So if you were level 200, you could only pvp levels 180-200 (I forgot the exact numbers, but you get the idea). This stopped 220 players running around and killing level 25s.
Nice.
A simple enough way to do that should be just to reduce the size of the old player "backpack". Don't allow people to carry over9000 arrows etc. Instead they would have to use carts, wagons et al dependant upon what they where intending to move.
So on a quick, short raid, you could go out on your own, or on horse and have combat. If you wanted to travel further you would have to loot, re gear along the way or take baggage trains with you which could be attacked.
Some areas would be easier to loot/restock in, whilst others would mean that a baggage train is more in order.
This would all also drive the looting/economy of the game more (along with decay, player crafting etc).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The dream that is open world PvP always sounds a lot more romantic and honorable and majestic when its proponents wax philosophically about it.
But in real life, in practice, in every single game with open world PvP the result is always the same.
Exactly as Creslin describes - ganking, greifing, general ass-hatery.
The penalties for being a douche are NEVER strong enough to pursuade players. The PK's are coddled way, way too much by the devs because the PK's are the LOUDEST whiners/complainers.
The sheep they pray on simply leave the game for greener pastures.
The PK's flood the forums and developer's ears with their QQ.
It WOULD be possible to create a game with open world PvP that actually works - I've written blogs on it too.
But the PK's would HATE it because you HAVE to make the game harder and more difficult on the "rule breaker" than you do for the "rule followers."
Stop coddling the PK's and giving them so many "outs" - make it actually a difficult play style and it could work.
Yes, there are methods and ways to minimize ganking.. Some have already brought up good ideas like "attrition".. If you had limited amo or item damage that required reasonable repairs.. Add back aspects like stamina and mana regenation, where REST is required between zerg kills.. Hard to fight if you just spent all your fuel on the last kill.. Right now games make it too easy for players to instant refuel and move on to the next kill..
Something that would reduce, not stop is like I suggested once on another forum;
- Hide all level, targeting color marks etc... All you get from looking at a guy is maybe his name.
- Allow cosmetic clothing, is that shabbly dressed bum a newbie? Or an end player?
Now when I suggested these 2 things I got the typical: "but then I wouldn't know if I could one shot win" whine.
- Also I think a faction based form of Pvp would work better. If you did do a random killing on you ownside, then you'd be marked as a murderer and hunted from the city and declared wolfshead for anyone to claim a bounty on. If caught your character would then get to dangle from the nearest tree (and the toon would become totally unplayable).
The concept of "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime." Thus making the penalty cut down on the amount of ganking for fun.
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You're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist as you've assigned the perjorative term 'ganking' to what is basically conquest/control gameplay. It's like asking if you can have vanilla ice cream without the horrible taste.
Now, to be fair, there are some open world PvP systems where there is no conquest/control goal, and I personally wonder what the purpose behind them is other than a system to farm lower level players.
In games with conquest or territorial control in an open world environment, the battle started the minute you entered that region. One could even say the battle started at release, long before you even showed up. It is very different from battlegrounds and arena combat, where the conflict only begins once the bell soundsand both sides are let out of their pens.
Basically, it's like playing RISK or Axis and Allies, with players entering mid battle. By your definition, sending four tanks and three infantry after one infantry guy in Axis and Allies is ganking. By your definition, multiple players attacking a weaker player or even one player attacking a weaker player in RISK is ganking. You don't personally care for the gameplay, therefore you have assigned a negative term to it and sell it as a problem to be fixed.
One direction that some games have gone is to do world resets, such as ATITD and PotBS. This allows players equal chances on a regular basis to gain the upperhand in the open world competitive gameplay. Another direction is to tie the social aspect into the combat aspect as with Puzzle Pirates, where occupation instead of conquest is the system for territorial control in open world PVP, creating a need to wage war and attack responsibly if an armada wishes to have the backing of the locals when taking over an island/town.
There are also artificial systems that can be put in place, as well. Puzzle Pirates effectively does trhis with the Black Ship, an overpowered NPC ship that appears and attacks ships who display a pattern of taking on only weaker ships. While it works well in Puzzle Pirates, that is more because of the audience, as such a system would not go over well in a game such as Darkfall, PotBS or EVE Online, where control and resources could then be shuttled around by relatively invulnerable newbies.
The problem with 'ganking' in open world PVP is that players who do not understand how the system works (and loons that understnad it, don't like it and play it anyway) have assigned a perjorative term to the gameplay rather than adapt to it or move on to a game with PVP they would enjoy.
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You my friend should be a developer! I wish developers would put this much effort into systems.
I played original UO and call me a carebear if you want, but I got turned off by the rampant PKing. There were just too many times I didn't have many friends online or whatever and I'd go out alone, or with a buddy and we'd get jumped by the roving band of 6-8 PKers and there was literally nothing we could do but die. It just got to be too much.
A system like you describe would be cool.
I also love some of the other suggestions like having enemy players just display a name, and cosmetic clothing options so you have no idea how powerful someone is when you decide to attack them, just like in real life. In real life I could see some pudgy middle-aged guy in a business suit walking down the street and assume I could kick his butt, only to find out he's a ju-jitsu black belt and get my butt handed to me.
Runescapes wilderness system was pretty good. When you entered, you were in level 1 wilderness, this meant you could attack people 1 level above and below you, the further you went in , the higher or lower levels you could attack. It went up to 55 if I'm not mistaken.
If I'm honest, ganking has never annoyed me. Whenever I was ganked, either in WoW or EVE, I never turned around and said "damn game and its stupid mechanics," I was always just mad at myself for being stupid enough to get myself into that situation.
You can't fix stupid and you can't fix chicken shit pkers.
Short answer: No.
Also your not using the term ganking right.
The thing is open world pvp shares ganking, greifing, and general-asshats with instanced, controlled team based pvp. Ganking is just 2+ people attacting one person. Hell it's a common term in LOL.
http://www.gamereplays.org/leagueoflegends/portals.php?show=index&name=league-of-legends-beginners-guide&tab=6907275
Any game with pvp is going to have ganking. The thing is that whole sheep and wolves analogy they use falls flat when the sheep can pick up a sword and swing it back or hire protection. In a hostile open world pvp enviroment your an idiot just begging to be killed if you walk around by yourself. It's a pretty basic practice that survival chances are better in a group.
What your really talking about is pvp with balanced risk vs reward and consequences.
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I agree, every open-world PvP game I have played has, IMO, been too easy on PKers. And I think one of the big problems is that some of PKers/griefers typically tend to view the game differently than other players do.
They see the game as almost a huge hunger-games-esque arena where they can run around and try to survive in a hostile environment. They can make friends sure, but everyone else is a potential enemy...and it's just a game so it's all in good fun. Everyone else tends to see them as jerks that have no moral compass and love to kick sand in other people's faces at the playground.
So I think when developers put heavy penalties on PKers, they whine because they feel like it's destroying the game that they like the play...the arena game where everyone is a potential enemy and you have to kill to survive and gain power.
Basically, like you, I think that developers need to be crystal clear with their goals for the game and not waver from them. They can't try to cater to both PKers and regular players. And if a bunch of PKers start whining that the penalties are too high, then they can go and play Darkfall...they would probably cost the game way more money than they bring in anyway.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I think most people knew what I meant by ganking
. It has a different context in MOBA games.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Ganking and Open World PVPing is never a problem, with all the solutions that everyone thought of, it can be done, its just whether or not its easier said then done.
There is already alot of mechanics available that makes the clothing cosmetic thing you said doable. RIFT did it by making it a separate clothing that you can buy and equip next to your original gear that you can tacle on and off for display purposes with all the strength of the gear you are wearing.
And I think my system allows PKers to become PKers on their own free will, althought its an Hardcore character, its their decision to do so and they get the excitment of death by becoming death themselves in the first place. I doubt true PKers would QQ about it.
btw thank you for your support of my idea.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.