I think you've managed to identify the start of the "dumbing down" of PC gaming, prior to this it really was only for those who could understand and master the intracacies of a DOS based computer.
Heh, now we're going to claim "working with primitive hardware" as Mad Gaming Skillz Fo Sho Yo?
Why, I even reset jumpers on sound cards, sonny! :wave cane:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Did not stop me from reselling my copy of D3 on ebay for 45 bucks.
You actually found a buyer? {gawk}
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'd be interested to see what kind of response the seemingly affluent gaming consumer would be to this game Would there be anywhere near the number of pre-orders?
I'd be interested to see if the OPs claims of bug-free 80/90s software ever did hold any weight. I suspect it's selective memory, hard at work. I worked with DOS-based software, both as a user and a coder. His memory seems to be..a little different from mine.
Agreed. One of the cool things about Wolf3D is that it just worked.
I didn't have to
make edits to my config.sys or autoexec.bat file
rearrange my EMS/XMS allocation
know the port, interrupt handler or DMA of my sound card
hope my video card was one of the handful of brands/models supported
stop midgame for some oddball anti-piracy system such as entering the fifth word from page 4 paragraph 5 of the manual
Wolf3D was a refreshing change in a sea of games that required a lot of extra effort just to get them to run, let alone run stable.
I remember all of this. Hell I still had my Goldbox decoder wheel and collection of floppy's until Katrina wiped me out.
And if you weren't an ace at making boot disks your games wouldn't run. Not until the company came out with a patch or stablilized their server, it just wouldn't work EVER.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by KyleranI think you've managed to identify the start of the "dumbing down" of PC gaming, prior to this it really was only for those who could understand and master the intracacies of a DOS based computer.
Heh, now we're going to claim "working with primitive hardware" as Mad Gaming Skillz Fo Sho Yo?
Why, I even reset jumpers on sound cards, sonny! :wave cane:
OH, GOD! I remember that "activity", too! And trying to recall which card had what DMA... Was my soundcard on 220 or 240? Go to the config file and make changes. That was soooo long ago, I hope I recalled correctly
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Because gamers are idiots and let developers get away with it...
Why is it OK for everything in the world to be resold as used except software?
What game software cannot be resold as used?
Most newer software/games cannot be resold. Most of the time, the game key is tagged to your name or email address. You cannot resell that.
Interesting.
So pretty much it's a recent thing due to stuff like Origin and such?
Id say much earlier than that, probably started around the Steam days. Basically when games stopped making you have the physical CD in your computer to play the game. Even then, you probably weren't suppose to resell. Not that there weren't cracks for those back then.
And this is why this industry needs strict governmental regulations so they can warrant that we as consumers get value for our money.
Chuckle. Politics incoming, Danger Will Robinson.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Launch days are a special situation because they are not repesentative of the long-term experience. The problem is that marketting arms of companies hype up the launch day for sales while the engineering arms know that their infrastructure is not designed to handle that initial spike.
I have to say I run into fewer games today that simply won't install or crash every five minutes than I did 20 years ago. For all the complexity that has been added, the reliability has also greatly increased overall.
Originally posted by maplestone Launch days are a special situation because they are not repesentative of the long-term experience. The problem is that marketting arms of companies hype up the launch day for sales while the engineering arms know that their infrastructure is not designed to handle that initial spike.
The marketing arm is stupid when the engineering arm says the stress test went well and the infrastructure is A-OK.
I remember when things like beta tests and stress tests actually meant something.
I think you've managed to identify the start of the "dumbing down" of PC gaming, prior to this it really was only for those who could understand and master the intracacies of a DOS based computer.
Heh, now we're going to claim "working with primitive hardware" as Mad Gaming Skillz Fo Sho Yo?
Why, I even reset jumpers on sound cards, sonny! :wave cane:
OH, GOD! I remember that "activity", too! And trying to recall which card had what DMA... Was my soundcard on 220 or 240? Go to the config file and make changes. That was soooo long ago, I hope I recalled correctly
Yeah, and when you screwed it up you had to try to interpret the "beep" codes to figure out where you went wrong.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO's are large complex pieces of software. Boots by comparison are far easier to conceive and make. There is so much that comes into play that it would take a sizable wall of text to bore you with. Even if a company does everything right, to have it completely bug free is just not possible. You also have to realize that you can't test in quality by the time users are looking at beta code it is either quality code or it isn't. In order to make money an MMO must be released. It will always be a compromise; the game will never be perfect. Most software can be patched so it can be improved after purchase. My boots don't have that option.
When I buy a pair of boots I do a little research before spending my hard earned money. I want something that lasts. As others have said, it's up to the user to determine if the money you are spending is on a quality product or not. That is how it should be. If you really feel you are being shafted on quality I would recommend you never take the risk of buy an MMO at initial release because there just isnt enough info out on it yet.
Computer software, games especially, are complex and delicate tapestries of story-telling, game mechanics and so many other ingredients that it is nearly impossible for any one developer to GET IT RIGHT in a way that would satisfy every customer that buys the product in question.
Add to this the fact that developers can never test their product in all of the possible environments that their customers will have at home, and the problem increases.
Add to this the fact that it may take people some time to reach a point in the game where they realize the game is likely to disappoint them, mainly because they were expecting something the game simply doesn't deliver, but their disappointment is just a drop in an ocean of other customers who may approve of the disappointing feature, and you've got a recipe for many complaint threads on many forums.
What happend, is that over the years developers have become as lazy as their customers allow them to be while the customers have become a vocal bunch of wanna-be game designers who think they know better how to develop games and I blame it all on the Internet!
Heres the deal. There is a book by K.W. Jeter, Noir(1998), in which he describes two marketing and product cycles: SIAC(s#!* in a can) and SOAW(s#!* on a wire). "Crap in a can" is when you buy something that only works when you continually pay the mother company(cell phones, MMO's, etc) to use it. "Crap on a wire" is when you literally pay a company for electricity that appears to be a product, follows the same rules as SIAC, but you end up getting absolutely nothing. As in the case of Diablo 3. It is crap on a wire, and people will buy it because somebody in a marketing company said it was cool.
Both Sony and Microsoft are viciously sticking to Crap in a can, their new gaming systems are proof of that, just like the cell phone providers who are insisting on 4G wireless networking(cheaper than land lines-which AT&T is dumping wholesale) even though it firmly puts us at the bottom of the developing world as far as internet speeds go.
The reason we get cruddy products for our money is that we, as a society, are addicted to convenience and have become a service based society. We don't want to work for what we have, and as soon as something goes wrong with a device, we chuck it and buy a new one, making it fiscally irresponsible for big companies to make quality products since we will get rid of it at the first sign of adversity.
We get crappy products because we treat all producte we have like crap, regardless of quality, and are willing to slavishly follow our marketing masters into oblivion as long as they say something is cool.
what happened?same as usual!big company ignoring microsoft solution (as usual)a lot of big corp think they are better then ms when programming time come sadly not many can!i ve said it for years to have massive in the mmo the mmo will need at the minimum ms donnybrook!(5 year old techno that is free from ms,just need to pay them for how to implement it to your particular toy)let me give you an exemple!we still are in 32 bit in most game this should tell you a lot!
Before wow the majority of players bought games after the game had already been launched because there were plenty of unfinished mmorpg's being launched. Nowadays most people preorder games and complain that their unrealistic expectations created by hype wasn't fulfilled.
Stop buying games before launch and listen to both the good and the bad things said about games and you will avoid bad products. A reviewer that has nothing bad to say about a game isn't honest because there is no such thing as a perfect game with no flaws.
what happened?same as usual!big company ignoring microsoft solution (as usual)a lot of big corp think they are better then ms when programming time come sadly not many can!i ve said it for years to have massive in the mmo the mmo will need at the minimum ms donnybrook!(5 year old techno that is free from ms,just need to pay them for how to implement it to your particular toy)let me give you an exemple!we still are in 32 bit in most game this should tell you a lot!
While I can never really understand much of what you write (yours is a language and truth that far exceeds my limited abilities as a mere Earthling) I get the feeling that you won't rest until someone... ANYONE... uses Donnybrook to make an MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When D3 released there were only 2 days where I had login troubles (and only 0.5 days if you count the fact that I was able to login the morning after launch.)
With GW2 if you're a Super Drama Gamer who bitches about the first week of a game's launch, don't buy it in the first week. Simple problem. Simple solution.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
what happened?same as usual!big company ignoring microsoft solution (as usual)a lot of big corp think they are better then ms when programming time come sadly not many can!i ve said it for years to have massive in the mmo the mmo will need at the minimum ms donnybrook!(5 year old techno that is free from ms,just need to pay them for how to implement it to your particular toy)let me give you an exemple!we still are in 32 bit in most game this should tell you a lot!
While I can never really understand much of what you write (yours is a language and truth that far exceeds my limited abilities as a mere Earthling) I get the feeling that you won't rest until someone... ANYONE... uses Donnybrook to make an MMO.
I've always wondered if there was actually an example of that tech being used and working better than something like Planetside.
Or if it's just an overhyped cure-all baltazar completely bought into with no proof of concept.
Anyone can work on a piece of tech and promise big. In fact many often do! But whether that piece of tech is actually capable of not only executing, but being considerably better than other examples, is a big open question.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
First and foremost in regards to video games. When your spending your money on the game your not buying the game your buying a liscence to allow you to play said game. Read any eula or agreements in boxes and so on thats just how it is.
Secondly, everyone experiences software differently because many computers are different. Uploading files to a server can cause wear and tear on servers as well files can go mia whilst uploading. That is just part of the process. Adjusting fixes for each computer , console, and so on can be nerve wracking. Not to mention the people developing these games are still people.
They need to take care of themselves and their families as well. So there is always room for error and if you cannot expect that than your thought process is flawed greatly. At the same time no one is forcing you to buy said video game. No one is putting a gun to your head to buy this game. Most games now days also have demos or trials. Play one of those before spending your money on a game. It is impossible to have a 100% bug free, confrontation free launch of any game. Because shit happens. Companies have to deal with it as it happens.
Some companies have shitty customer service and or dont deal with the problems as well or as fast as others.
I do agree that game development even design has become more of making it look pretty and hoping the players dont notice the other crap. Don't get me wrong I like pretty graphics but games have become more about the graphics than the gameplay. Game Studios constantly fighting political battles between themselves. Usually when studios battle the consumer wins but not in all cases. Sometimes its the exact opposite.
My point in all this is, devs. designers are people just like you. Human error is always a possibillity and thinking there is no room for error then your wrong.
Comments
Heh, now we're going to claim "working with primitive hardware" as Mad Gaming Skillz Fo Sho Yo?
Why, I even reset jumpers on sound cards, sonny! :wave cane:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Did not stop me from reselling my copy of D3 on ebay for 45 bucks.
They can have my blizzard account, and the toons that I'd made as well, they wouldn't do me any good languishing on a Blizzard server anyhow.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
You actually found a buyer? {gawk}
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Lets put it this way, developers have no right to expect quality money out the consumers...
I remember all of this. Hell I still had my Goldbox decoder wheel and collection of floppy's until Katrina wiped me out.
And if you weren't an ace at making boot disks your games wouldn't run. Not until the company came out with a patch or stablilized their server, it just wouldn't work EVER.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
It was 3 days after release so yeah
(dont know what they're going for now, I'm guessing less than 45$ )
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Heh, now we're going to claim "working with primitive hardware" as Mad Gaming Skillz Fo Sho Yo?
Why, I even reset jumpers on sound cards, sonny! :wave cane:
OH, GOD! I remember that "activity", too! And trying to recall which card had what DMA... Was my soundcard on 220 or 240? Go to the config file and make changes. That was soooo long ago, I hope I recalled correctly
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Id say much earlier than that, probably started around the Steam days. Basically when games stopped making you have the physical CD in your computer to play the game. Even then, you probably weren't suppose to resell. Not that there weren't cracks for those back then.
And this is why this industry needs strict governmental regulations so they can warrant that we as consumers get value for our money.
Chuckle. Politics incoming, Danger Will Robinson.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Stop. Please
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Launch days are a special situation because they are not repesentative of the long-term experience. The problem is that marketting arms of companies hype up the launch day for sales while the engineering arms know that their infrastructure is not designed to handle that initial spike.
I have to say I run into fewer games today that simply won't install or crash every five minutes than I did 20 years ago. For all the complexity that has been added, the reliability has also greatly increased overall.
I remember when things like beta tests and stress tests actually meant something.
Yeah, and when you screwed it up you had to try to interpret the "beep" codes to figure out where you went wrong.
I used to hear quite a bit of beeping at times.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO's are large complex pieces of software. Boots by comparison are far easier to conceive and make. There is so much that comes into play that it would take a sizable wall of text to bore you with. Even if a company does everything right, to have it completely bug free is just not possible. You also have to realize that you can't test in quality by the time users are looking at beta code it is either quality code or it isn't. In order to make money an MMO must be released. It will always be a compromise; the game will never be perfect. Most software can be patched so it can be improved after purchase. My boots don't have that option.
When I buy a pair of boots I do a little research before spending my hard earned money. I want something that lasts. As others have said, it's up to the user to determine if the money you are spending is on a quality product or not. That is how it should be. If you really feel you are being shafted on quality I would recommend you never take the risk of buy an MMO at initial release because there just isnt enough info out on it yet.
Tired of not getting quality products? Stop buying products from companies that are known for their low quality. Simple.
My theme song.
Computer software, games especially, are complex and delicate tapestries of story-telling, game mechanics and so many other ingredients that it is nearly impossible for any one developer to GET IT RIGHT in a way that would satisfy every customer that buys the product in question.
Add to this the fact that developers can never test their product in all of the possible environments that their customers will have at home, and the problem increases.
Add to this the fact that it may take people some time to reach a point in the game where they realize the game is likely to disappoint them, mainly because they were expecting something the game simply doesn't deliver, but their disappointment is just a drop in an ocean of other customers who may approve of the disappointing feature, and you've got a recipe for many complaint threads on many forums.
What happend, is that over the years developers have become as lazy as their customers allow them to be while the customers have become a vocal bunch of wanna-be game designers who think they know better how to develop games and I blame it all on the Internet!
Yay common sense!!!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Heres the deal. There is a book by K.W. Jeter, Noir(1998), in which he describes two marketing and product cycles: SIAC(s#!* in a can) and SOAW(s#!* on a wire). "Crap in a can" is when you buy something that only works when you continually pay the mother company(cell phones, MMO's, etc) to use it. "Crap on a wire" is when you literally pay a company for electricity that appears to be a product, follows the same rules as SIAC, but you end up getting absolutely nothing. As in the case of Diablo 3. It is crap on a wire, and people will buy it because somebody in a marketing company said it was cool.
Both Sony and Microsoft are viciously sticking to Crap in a can, their new gaming systems are proof of that, just like the cell phone providers who are insisting on 4G wireless networking(cheaper than land lines-which AT&T is dumping wholesale) even though it firmly puts us at the bottom of the developing world as far as internet speeds go.
The reason we get cruddy products for our money is that we, as a society, are addicted to convenience and have become a service based society. We don't want to work for what we have, and as soon as something goes wrong with a device, we chuck it and buy a new one, making it fiscally irresponsible for big companies to make quality products since we will get rid of it at the first sign of adversity.
We get crappy products because we treat all producte we have like crap, regardless of quality, and are willing to slavishly follow our marketing masters into oblivion as long as they say something is cool.
Anything new here? Hmmm... Nope. o/
what happened?same as usual!big company ignoring microsoft solution (as usual)a lot of big corp think they are better then ms when programming time come sadly not many can!i ve said it for years to have massive in the mmo the mmo will need at the minimum ms donnybrook!(5 year old techno that is free from ms,just need to pay them for how to implement it to your particular toy)let me give you an exemple!we still are in 32 bit in most game this should tell you a lot!
Before wow the majority of players bought games after the game had already been launched because there were plenty of unfinished mmorpg's being launched. Nowadays most people preorder games and complain that their unrealistic expectations created by hype wasn't fulfilled.
Stop buying games before launch and listen to both the good and the bad things said about games and you will avoid bad products. A reviewer that has nothing bad to say about a game isn't honest because there is no such thing as a perfect game with no flaws.
While I can never really understand much of what you write (yours is a language and truth that far exceeds my limited abilities as a mere Earthling) I get the feeling that you won't rest until someone... ANYONE... uses Donnybrook to make an MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Eh?
When Aion released I had no problems.
When D3 released there were only 2 days where I had login troubles (and only 0.5 days if you count the fact that I was able to login the morning after launch.)
With GW2 if you're a Super Drama Gamer who bitches about the first week of a game's launch, don't buy it in the first week. Simple problem. Simple solution.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've always wondered if there was actually an example of that tech being used and working better than something like Planetside.
Or if it's just an overhyped cure-all baltazar completely bought into with no proof of concept.
Anyone can work on a piece of tech and promise big. In fact many often do! But whether that piece of tech is actually capable of not only executing, but being considerably better than other examples, is a big open question.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
First and foremost in regards to video games. When your spending your money on the game your not buying the game your buying a liscence to allow you to play said game. Read any eula or agreements in boxes and so on thats just how it is.
Secondly, everyone experiences software differently because many computers are different. Uploading files to a server can cause wear and tear on servers as well files can go mia whilst uploading. That is just part of the process. Adjusting fixes for each computer , console, and so on can be nerve wracking. Not to mention the people developing these games are still people.
They need to take care of themselves and their families as well. So there is always room for error and if you cannot expect that than your thought process is flawed greatly. At the same time no one is forcing you to buy said video game. No one is putting a gun to your head to buy this game. Most games now days also have demos or trials. Play one of those before spending your money on a game. It is impossible to have a 100% bug free, confrontation free launch of any game. Because shit happens. Companies have to deal with it as it happens.
Some companies have shitty customer service and or dont deal with the problems as well or as fast as others.
I do agree that game development even design has become more of making it look pretty and hoping the players dont notice the other crap. Don't get me wrong I like pretty graphics but games have become more about the graphics than the gameplay. Game Studios constantly fighting political battles between themselves. Usually when studios battle the consumer wins but not in all cases. Sometimes its the exact opposite.
My point in all this is, devs. designers are people just like you. Human error is always a possibillity and thinking there is no room for error then your wrong.