have you even looked at gw2's cash shop? It is not p2w. Everything in the shop is attainable in game. Buying items do not make your chapter better than a b2p player. Furthermore, you can buy crystals for in game gold.
Many if not all P2W games allow players to buy/sell the items in their cash shops for in game currency. Why would a publisher limit the availability of those items only to players that spend money in their cash shops? Allowing for trade increases their customer base 10 fold if you consider the general rule that 10% of a P2W population actually spends money.
P2W is a business model. It has nothing to do with how " fair " a player perceives the cash shop.
B2P is the best business model out there, the console and PC gaming companies have been doing it for years and it's been very successful. paying a monthly subscription for a game lead to bad design of said game lead the developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month. WoW is the worst of the lot it's 8 years old and on top of paying a monthly sub you also have to pay for the new expansions which I think is ridiculous, so what are you really paying a sub for?
I bought GW1 back in May and got all 30 points for GW2 HoM rewards and I have to say it felt great that I could play without having to worry about my sub running out in a few days, "the way it's supposed to be".
What is better:
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
I prefer the subscription model where I pay a set fee and that's it. I didn't mind the Turbine hybrid LOTRO plan until WB bought them and is now starting to get greedy. (IE charging you to fix your inventory slots )
I have to agree with this. The Turbine model for LOTRO is excellent until the developer starts getting greedy. They allow you to permanently unlock content with a single purchase. If AoC had such a plan I probably would have spent some money, but their goal is to get you to subscribe and there are simply much better sub games available.
Right now I'm a big fan of B2P. I would have had zero complaints if SWTOR was B2P. I've purchased GW2 without ever trying it because it's B2P and I have no doubts I'll get my moneys worth. It's nice knowing I can play whenever I want without worrying about it being worthy of a subscription.
B2P is the best business model out there, the console and PC gaming companies have been doing it for years and it's been very successful. paying a monthly subscription for a game lead to bad design of said game lead the developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month. WoW is the worst of the lot it's 8 years old and on top of paying a monthly sub you also have to pay for the new expansions which I think is ridiculous, so what are you really paying a sub for?
I bought GW1 back in May and got all 30 points for GW2 HoM rewards and I have to say it felt great that I could play without having to worry about my sub running out in a few days, "the way it's supposed to be".
What is better:
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
So you're basically saying that MMO gamers, other than you of course, are damn morons. Otherwise, why would they pay for CS items they - and by 'they' I mean the people that aren't part of the 90% that never pay anything - don't want or don't find enjoyable in their entertainment service?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
B2P is the best business model out there, the console and PC gaming companies have been doing it for years and it's been very successful. paying a monthly subscription for a game lead to bad design of said game lead the developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month. WoW is the worst of the lot it's 8 years old and on top of paying a monthly sub you also have to pay for the new expansions which I think is ridiculous, so what are you really paying a sub for?
I bought GW1 back in May and got all 30 points for GW2 HoM rewards and I have to say it felt great that I could play without having to worry about my sub running out in a few days, "the way it's supposed to be".
What is better:
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
In the best case is the same crap.
Yeah because GW1 I couldn't play the entire game without some how purchasing something from the cash shop right? /sarcasm
B2P is the best business model out there, the console and PC gaming companies have been doing it for years and it's been very successful. paying a monthly subscription for a game lead to bad design of said game lead the developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month. WoW is the worst of the lot it's 8 years old and on top of paying a monthly sub you also have to pay for the new expansions which I think is ridiculous, so what are you really paying a sub for?
I bought GW1 back in May and got all 30 points for GW2 HoM rewards and I have to say it felt great that I could play without having to worry about my sub running out in a few days, "the way it's supposed to be".
What is better:
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
So you're basically saying that MMO gamers, other than you of course, are damn morons. Otherwise, why would they pay for CS items they - and by 'they' I mean the people that aren't part of the 90% that never pay anything - don't want or don't find enjoyable in their entertainment service?
Context was about bad design, if you design game around payment model alone. You get it all wrong.
Honestly, I've been happy with the actual F2P games I've played and love the model. Vindictus, Continent of the 9th, Aion, Firefalls current beta, all of them are fantastically fun games that really don't seem to have the kind of "cheap" hallmarks of F2P title (granted, Aion made the transition from sub-based to F2P).
While I prefer that business model (mainly because I can be cheap at times), I don't really have a big preference on business model, as long as the game is good and the model fits the rest of the game. I'm playing at least one game from each category and I enjoy them all for different reasons.
I don't really think any business model is necessarily better than another, it's how the developers handle the game given the business model it falls under. There are plenty of hybrid/F2P/subscription based/F2P/ and some B2P (since it's pretty uncommon) that suck, just as there are plenty that are awesome. There are plenty that abuse their business model, just as there are plenty that embrace it and end up making it a benefit for players.
Till now i think the best free to play model after lol is dc universe online.
The whole game is for free and you buy only some extras that are account bound and some others that are hero bound.
Other free to play are crap.
Eq2 is a total crap along with conan and others.
Free to play should have been just like lol does.
In mmos they should give everything for free and add content in future updates that will need to be purchased and stay for ever .
Enter the dungeon for 2 days pass?Who the hell came up with this crap idea.Im not even gonna start a game that gives me an option to play a dungeon for 1 or 2 days.Thats what i call crap models.
Anything that is not permanent is not free.Enough said
B2P is the best business model out there, the console and PC gaming companies have been doing it for years and it's been very successful. paying a monthly subscription for a game lead to bad design of said game lead the developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month. WoW is the worst of the lot it's 8 years old and on top of paying a monthly sub you also have to pay for the new expansions which I think is ridiculous, so what are you really paying a sub for?
I bought GW1 back in May and got all 30 points for GW2 HoM rewards and I have to say it felt great that I could play without having to worry about my sub running out in a few days, "the way it's supposed to be".
What is better:
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
In the best case is the same crap.
Yeah because GW1 I couldn't play the entire game without some how purchasing something from the cash shop right? /sarcasm
Fact is, easier is to use RMT than grind, so peeps will pay, pay a lot.
Fadedbomb had it on page 1. Best model is sub fee. No cash shop. No initial box or expansion purchases. The second best would be B2P + Cosmetic Cash Shop.
Best model = B2P hands down for me. Just like my single player games, I buy the box and can play as much as I want. GW1 for me was the best money I every paid for an MMO type game.
Worst = Subscriptions. I absolutely loathe having to pay for the right to play a game I have already purchased. I have lots of MMO games I have paid full box price for and can't play them to the full extent without a subscription --> WAR, AOC, Rift, LOTRO, Vanguard--etc.
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
In the best case is the same crap.
Yeah because GW1 I couldn't play the entire game without some how purchasing something from the cash shop right? /sarcasm
Fact is, easier is to use RMT than grind, so peeps will pay, pay a lot.
If that's your arguement then I could just say it is easier to pay someone else to play the game for me, because it makes about as much sense as what you just said.
to me it is silly to lump all "free to play" together. some are a lot more obtrusive and/or game breaking than others.
aion and l2 have very respectable f2p setups. as opposed to let's say the nexon games where the itm shop is a little more "necessary" and on to other worse offenders where it really is "p2w".
my short list:
3) the f2p of l2/aion
2)the subscription / PLEX of eve (allowing people to supplement their game time with currency if they can afford it and wish for a free month)
1) the free/mium of LOTRO and DDO (***NOT*** the sony f2p of EQ1/2/vanguard)
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Are LoTRO and EQ2 also considered hybrid alongside DDO? They also both have broader options like subbing OR playing free to play and giving you "points" for their cash shops and what not. I never realized there were that many hybrid games, and I think that's a pretty great setup....for me anyway.
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
In the best case is the same crap.
Yeah because GW1 I couldn't play the entire game without some how purchasing something from the cash shop right? /sarcasm
Fact is, easier is to use RMT than grind, so peeps will pay, pay a lot.
If that's your arguement then I could just say it is easier to pay someone else to play the game for me, because it makes about as much sense as what you just said.
Fact about RMT is to clarify my post because MadKing was referring to GW1, and that game didn’t have RMT.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The entire premise of this column if flawed and very much secondary in regards to if a game is good or successful.
Can anyone name a single game that "failed" or was not successful because of the business model?
This is the flawed thinking that has plagued MMO makers for the last 7+ years: if the game is not successful, it is not the business model, IT IS THE GAME.
And the industry has gone down the toliet as a result.
The idiot devs and production companies have been spending their time and energy building games around the revenue model and cash shop (these days) and less about designing good and compelling gameplay, designed to foster player interdependence, a sense of community and of player ownership.
A good game sells itself, a bad one you can barely give away.
Bussiness model? Who cares. Compared to good game design/mechanics, it is nothing.
Charge 'em for the lice, extra for the mice Two percent for looking in the mirror twice Here a little slice, there a little cut Three percent for sleeping with the window shut When it comes to fixing prices There are a lot of tricks he knows How it all increases, all them bits and pieces Jesus! It's amazing how it grows!
~Les Miserables
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Please, tell me you're joking and that you really do have some basic understanding of the topic you chose to discuss.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Charge 'em for the lice, extra for the mice Two percent for looking in the mirror twice Here a little slice, there a little cut Three percent for sleeping with the window shut When it comes to fixing prices There are a lot of tricks he knows How it all increases, all them bits and pieces Jesus! It's amazing how it grows!
~Les Miserables
Basically...WoW.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In my opinion, the buy-to-play with cash-shop option is the best way to go. It still offers an initial RoI for the devs and publisher and offers trickle-in cash flow in the long term. DLC content packs and/or paid expansions then round out that offering.
Buy to play is no different than F2P other than the devs of B2P games may be greedier getting 60 bucks upfront (4 months up front) then balancing questing around cash shop XP pots.
No thank you b2p/f2p I will pay my $15 per month.
Sorry - many sub games you buy the game get one month free and then it is a sub a month. So you are actually paying for more than a B2P game, which can be 60 or more for collectors.
All have their place. I am not keen on Sub + CS or F2P + P2W (like Allods Online - I hope it changed!).
See there is ups and downs to each, and i know that each game with X buisness model doesnt work the way im saying however ive seen versions of each work well.
B2P - anyone who says B2P is pay once is retarded. unless your going to skip every expansion it releases B2P isnt Pay once. That being said you only need to pay for the cash shop and Expansions. lets also not forget these games are subject to B2W aswell.
Sub - Subbed games should be set up that if your paying for a monthly sub you shouldn't have to pay for content updates. from what ive read this is what TSW is doing monthly.
Hybrid - I do enjoy the hybrid model. LOTRO does it well, i go though content extremely fast. so with games like LOTRO i can buy the expansion and then tear through it and then let the game rot until it releases more. and if they do start making new content fast enough to justify a sub i have that option.
F2P - F2P is great for the fickle gamer. personally if i paid for every F2P game ive spent time on, i'd be heavily in debt. While they usually have Medium to low quality level they can still be fun for afew months.
Lifetime - ive never done a lifetime subscription because i go though content too quickly. the thought crossed my mind with TSW however i dont have 200 dollars to throw around.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Comments
Many if not all P2W games allow players to buy/sell the items in their cash shops for in game currency. Why would a publisher limit the availability of those items only to players that spend money in their cash shops? Allowing for trade increases their customer base 10 fold if you consider the general rule that 10% of a P2W population actually spends money.
P2W is a business model. It has nothing to do with how " fair " a player perceives the cash shop.
What is better:
'developer to build a game around grinding to keep you paying them every month'
or
developer to build a game around CS items/RMT to keep you paying them?
In the best case is the same crap.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
I have to agree with this. The Turbine model for LOTRO is excellent until the developer starts getting greedy. They allow you to permanently unlock content with a single purchase. If AoC had such a plan I probably would have spent some money, but their goal is to get you to subscribe and there are simply much better sub games available.
Right now I'm a big fan of B2P. I would have had zero complaints if SWTOR was B2P. I've purchased GW2 without ever trying it because it's B2P and I have no doubts I'll get my moneys worth. It's nice knowing I can play whenever I want without worrying about it being worthy of a subscription.
So you're basically saying that MMO gamers, other than you of course, are damn morons. Otherwise, why would they pay for CS items they - and by 'they' I mean the people that aren't part of the 90% that never pay anything - don't want or don't find enjoyable in their entertainment service?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah because GW1 I couldn't play the entire game without some how purchasing something from the cash shop right? /sarcasm
Context was about bad design, if you design game around payment model alone. You get it all wrong.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
Honestly, I've been happy with the actual F2P games I've played and love the model. Vindictus, Continent of the 9th, Aion, Firefalls current beta, all of them are fantastically fun games that really don't seem to have the kind of "cheap" hallmarks of F2P title (granted, Aion made the transition from sub-based to F2P).
While I prefer that business model (mainly because I can be cheap at times), I don't really have a big preference on business model, as long as the game is good and the model fits the rest of the game. I'm playing at least one game from each category and I enjoy them all for different reasons.
I don't really think any business model is necessarily better than another, it's how the developers handle the game given the business model it falls under. There are plenty of hybrid/F2P/subscription based/F2P/ and some B2P (since it's pretty uncommon) that suck, just as there are plenty that are awesome. There are plenty that abuse their business model, just as there are plenty that embrace it and end up making it a benefit for players.
Till now i think the best free to play model after lol is dc universe online.
The whole game is for free and you buy only some extras that are account bound and some others that are hero bound.
Other free to play are crap.
Eq2 is a total crap along with conan and others.
Free to play should have been just like lol does.
In mmos they should give everything for free and add content in future updates that will need to be purchased and stay for ever .
Enter the dungeon for 2 days pass?Who the hell came up with this crap idea.Im not even gonna start a game that gives me an option to play a dungeon for 1 or 2 days.Thats what i call crap models.
Anything that is not permanent is not free.Enough said
Fact is, easier is to use RMT than grind, so peeps will pay, pay a lot.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
Fadedbomb had it on page 1. Best model is sub fee. No cash shop. No initial box or expansion purchases. The second best would be B2P + Cosmetic Cash Shop.
My theme song.
Best model = B2P hands down for me. Just like my single player games, I buy the box and can play as much as I want. GW1 for me was the best money I every paid for an MMO type game.
Worst = Subscriptions. I absolutely loathe having to pay for the right to play a game I have already purchased. I have lots of MMO games I have paid full box price for and can't play them to the full extent without a subscription --> WAR, AOC, Rift, LOTRO, Vanguard--etc.
If that's your arguement then I could just say it is easier to pay someone else to play the game for me, because it makes about as much sense as what you just said.
to me it is silly to lump all "free to play" together. some are a lot more obtrusive and/or game breaking than others.
aion and l2 have very respectable f2p setups. as opposed to let's say the nexon games where the itm shop is a little more "necessary" and on to other worse offenders where it really is "p2w".
my short list:
3) the f2p of l2/aion
2)the subscription / PLEX of eve (allowing people to supplement their game time with currency if they can afford it and wish for a free month)
1) the free/mium of LOTRO and DDO (***NOT*** the sony f2p of EQ1/2/vanguard)
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Are LoTRO and EQ2 also considered hybrid alongside DDO? They also both have broader options like subbing OR playing free to play and giving you "points" for their cash shops and what not. I never realized there were that many hybrid games, and I think that's a pretty great setup....for me anyway.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Fact about RMT is to clarify my post because MadKing was referring to GW1, and that game didn’t have RMT.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
Yes, it does.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is only CS, and good one, atleast for GW.
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
The entire premise of this column if flawed and very much secondary in regards to if a game is good or successful.
Can anyone name a single game that "failed" or was not successful because of the business model?
This is the flawed thinking that has plagued MMO makers for the last 7+ years: if the game is not successful, it is not the business model, IT IS THE GAME.
And the industry has gone down the toliet as a result.
The idiot devs and production companies have been spending their time and energy building games around the revenue model and cash shop (these days) and less about designing good and compelling gameplay, designed to foster player interdependence, a sense of community and of player ownership.
A good game sells itself, a bad one you can barely give away.
Bussiness model? Who cares. Compared to good game design/mechanics, it is nothing.
And that is the bottom line.
Optimized multiple revenue streams:
Box + sub + expansions + cash shop + account services + freemium (free access + purchasable content unlocks).
Charge 'em for the lice, extra for the mice
Two percent for looking in the mirror twice
Here a little slice, there a little cut
Three percent for sleeping with the window shut
When it comes to fixing prices
There are a lot of tricks he knows
How it all increases, all them bits and pieces
Jesus! It's amazing how it grows!
~Les Miserables
Please, tell me you're joking and that you really do have some basic understanding of the topic you chose to discuss.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Basically...WoW.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sorry - many sub games you buy the game get one month free and then it is a sub a month. So you are actually paying for more than a B2P game, which can be 60 or more for collectors.
All have their place. I am not keen on Sub + CS or F2P + P2W (like Allods Online - I hope it changed!).
See there is ups and downs to each, and i know that each game with X buisness model doesnt work the way im saying however ive seen versions of each work well.
B2P - anyone who says B2P is pay once is retarded. unless your going to skip every expansion it releases B2P isnt Pay once. That being said you only need to pay for the cash shop and Expansions. lets also not forget these games are subject to B2W aswell.
Sub - Subbed games should be set up that if your paying for a monthly sub you shouldn't have to pay for content updates. from what ive read this is what TSW is doing monthly.
Hybrid - I do enjoy the hybrid model. LOTRO does it well, i go though content extremely fast. so with games like LOTRO i can buy the expansion and then tear through it and then let the game rot until it releases more. and if they do start making new content fast enough to justify a sub i have that option.
F2P - F2P is great for the fickle gamer. personally if i paid for every F2P game ive spent time on, i'd be heavily in debt. While they usually have Medium to low quality level they can still be fun for afew months.
Lifetime - ive never done a lifetime subscription because i go though content too quickly. the thought crossed my mind with TSW however i dont have 200 dollars to throw around.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Where did you dig that link, rofl.
CS = Cash Shop (general term for ingame item shop)
RMT = Real Money Trade (gold selling, real curency for virtual one)
Better look here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_economy
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."