My point again is that our features, damned near everything but interviews, are driven by opinion. Asking us to remove our own thoughts and opinions towards any one topic would defeat the purpose of a site where the content is fueled by those thoughts and opinions.
I remember being banned soley because I pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUP after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?
In this site if you say something negative about a popular game it's considered trolling and unnecessary so they delete your post and ban you, however their "opinion" based reviews are ok in their eyes.
My point again is that our features, damned near everything but interviews, are driven by opinion. Asking us to remove our own thoughts and opinions towards any one topic would defeat the purpose of a site where the content is fueled by those thoughts and opinions.
I remember being banned soley because I pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUP after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?
I'd have to assume the tone or attitude you posted in was less then favorable. There is a ton of negative posts on this website. Hell, you see just pure venom being spit at certain games, yet a lot of the posters are not banned. So again, I'd have to assume you must of been either posted your opinion in a less then civil manner. But who knows I could be wrong.
Gotta say for scoring games, pocket gamer is exemplary in it's approach. They use the Edge (Future Publishing aka Edge-Online approach of x/10) and write with verve and context but also soley to nail that final score as it should be./just my 2 cents
Thanks for the heads up. I'm a big fan of Edge, leaving the scoring aside they write with insight and intelligence. Not only are they gaming enthusiasts they are publishing pros. They carry advertising of course but it is for within the industry, largely jobs, tools, etc. that actualy reflects that the industry (and not just the marketing dept) percieves them. I have said before I really think there is room for a more 'serious' games site, I guess gammasutra comes close. I have nothing against opinion but any journalist worth his salt Will make it crystal clear what are facts and what is opinion. When I read an article I want to be informed, I want details, I want genuine insight, sure toss an opinion or two in but please not an endless stream of gushing, rose tinted, fluff. The DCUO coverage was a perfect example of enthusiasm and personal 'feeling' causing a complete disconnect from the reality that was the game. Even a small step back to view from a wider perspective woul have revealed stuff that it was frankly inexcusable (IMHO) to miss. Sorry no paragraphs mmorpg.com is not mobile device friendly....a much bigger issue than quality of journalism.
I am kind of tired of coming here and looking at articles that put a positive spin on things that are clearly negative. The latest insult to my mind is how all these articles are being written about SW:TOR going F2P and having the gall to say that it's not because the game is an abject failure. Wake up and smell the humus MMORPG.com.
SW:TOR is not going F2P because EA is being kind or made a financial mistake in making SW:TOR P2P instead of F2P. F2P isn't always the "go to" model. If that was true all those P2P MMORPGs out there would be doing badly, which they clearly aren't. I'm tired of people thinking that if P2P games don't have a ridiculous amount of players in them than they are failures. RIFT is a good example of a game that is doing well with the P2P subscription model and they most certainly don't have millions of players.
The reason why SW:TOR is going F2P is because players realized that SW:TOR wasn't as good as many sites (such as this site) hyped it up to be. It's because the atrocious amount of money dumped into SW:TOR still didn't fix the fact that not enough love or patience was put into the game. You can hype a game to kingdom come, but it's the players that play the game and it's their opinions and wallets that matter the most and they've clearly spoken.
As a writer it hurts me to see that a lot of articles on MMORPG.com are written to hype up a game instead of to write about it with 100% honesty. I still have a ton of respect for MMORPG.com, but I'm definitely starting to lose a bit everytime I see such articles.
I understand what your saying and I agree with a lot of things about SWTOR being over-hyped. But don't blame mmorpg.com. They are a site dedicated to mmorpgs. They hype EVERY mmorpg - no matter how shitty or how great they are. You claim you are a writer, so i'm surprised your would attack their writing. Is this the first fansite you've been too?
SWTOR was a triple A title, despite how disappointing it was. Of course they will continue to provide coverage on the game during its first year of release. They did it for Warhammer, they did it for Aion, they did it for EQ2, ect.
Your huge, angry bias is making you blind towards a normal, "news from fans, for fans" type of system. Thats just silly.
I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.
In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section. Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features. The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds. Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.
However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.
Mobile friendly I would hope? In the interim please for the love of MMO's fix the forum software so that at least tablets/phones post with formatting intact!!!!!!! Sorry about excessive exclamation marks but it is getting close to driving me away. (yeah i know good ridance) Since getting one of the new iPads for my birthday it has become my interface of choice for..... well nearly everything.
Originally posted by Badaboom Originally posted by Fadedbomb Originally posted by BillMurphy Originally posted by niceguy3978
I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.
In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section. Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features. The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds. Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.
However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.
Bill, the problem here is that the Official MMORPG.com Articles have a LOT more weight than say forum threads or user Blogs here.
MMORPG.com isn't a fan site, and it isn't treated as such. MMORPG.com is treated as an MMO NEWS SITE, and one of the LARGEST aspects of being a NEWS SITE is that all of your Articles, and Article Writers, should be as close to Objective as humanly possible.
That's what being a Reporter, of a "News Site", is all about...being Objective. My English Professor would probably fail you for more than 9/10 of the Articles you, or anyone else, has written here because you're too Subjective & personally involved.
Not to mention the fact that, again Articles posted here have more weight as announcements and "Officiality", puts them under even larger microscopes than the normal forums.
The review, and adamant defending of SWTOR's obvious failure to the industry, is only adding fuel to the fire when it's not a forum topic being posted, but an OFFICIAL Article by MMORPG.com staff.
Cut them some slack. Watch the new HBO series, Newsroom and you will have a better understanding.
Pass, true journalism seems to only be in the Newspaper anymore, or with Online Indie News companies. It's like MMORPG.com is FauxNews for MMOs . That's how I feel anyways lol!
I completely agree with your points faded. Its certainly not just Mikes article. It's a question of editorial style and direction. Or, without wanting to give offence, lack of it. To be fare its not just mmorpg.com. The baby seems to have been thrown out with the bath water in the transition from traditional media.
In general, you don't pee on your own doorstep. A lot of gaming journalists tend to give positive spins on games as they get 'freebies' like advance info/access/favoritism from companies if they scratch their backs. I've worked in the gaming industry (and couldn't wait to get out partially for this incenstuous reason). With this motivation, they are doing their readers a diservice. Another way of going about it, is to become a ruthlessly objective, respected critic whose option is looked to, thereby generating a huge fanbase so that they are too well liked by customers to be snubbed by companies. Unfortunately, many choose the first option, it's easier. I don't want to be unfair to the staff on this site though, I don't want to second guess their motives.
Another possibility is that it can be hard as a game lover to totally crap on a huge effort of a game even if it's not as good as tauted because you know beneath that cruel corporate (EA) veneer there's a bunch of well-intentioned artists and writers that put their hearts and souls into something...then some suited (EA) type came to them and said 'right we're releasing this in half the time so you'd better make it good by then' *SLAM* Big money is both the enabler and the curse of modern gaming.
Originally posted by Razeekster I am kind of tired of coming here and looking at articles that put a positive spin on things that are clearly negative. The latest insult to my mind is how all these articles are being written about SW:TOR going F2P and having the gall to say that it's not because the game is an abject failure. Wake up and smell the humus MMORPG.com.
One has to remember this website has no interest in journalism,accuracy, providing information or helping the MMO genre. All they care about here is making money. Their interest is in page hits only. Nothing more. Which means they write articles with provactive sexy titles, blindly hype games to create interest and keep people coming back, let fanboys run wild over the forums, censor critical posts, and hire writers with limited MMO expereince who play MMOs only in the most casual of definitions.
The end result is mainstream MMO websites, especially this one, do a lot of damage to consumers and the genre. As they hype bad games and allow companies to lie, mislead and get away with selling unfinished games. They help sell bad games and turn a blind eye to a games faults because their only interest is in making money and being anything close to a legitimate newsite will make them less money and possibly damage the relationships they have with developers. When people talk about the decline in MMOs and ask why and how this has occured, They need to look no further than mmorpg.com which has been a major contributor behind the simplyifying and "McDonaldization" of the genre.
It is a shame that websites like this sellout for the dollar as there really is a need for a legitmate, honest and accurate MMO website. One that caters to actual players rather than one that is just used as a vehicle for developers to hype and advertise their games.
Cynical and cold, sadly that's probably the truth of the matter.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?
Simply put, Trav? The forums are not my area of expertise. I run content. Mike runs moderation. And his word there is law. But if you have a question about why you were banned, I do know he'll gladly tell you. Just shoot him a PM.
And no, we do NOT get paid hype games. We get paid to present information and offer our opinions. Sometimes that will stir hype, and other times it will deflate it. Any real hype that surrounds a game comes from not just our writing, but the entirety of the internet. Journalists, pundits, and bloggers? We're not the only reason GW2 has a high hype score here. In fact, it was hovering at the near 9 mark before anyone played it or started reporting on it here. Just a thought.
And lastly? If we're excited about a game, of course we're going to tell you we are. I'm not going to "pretend" not to like something just so I don't "influence" you. We'll write as much detail about a game as we can, but we're also going to offer our opinions with it. It's just how it's done.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
Mobile friendly I would hope? In the interim please for the love of MMO's fix the forum software so that at least tablets/phones post with formatting intact!!!!!!! Sorry about excessive exclamation marks but it is getting close to driving me away. (yeah i know good ridance) Since getting one of the new iPads for my birthday it has become my interface of choice for..... well nearly everything.
I'll forward this to Evan and Meddle for looking into. As far as I know, the new design will leave a lot of the forums intact, with a facelift. So maybe they can look at this in the meantime.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
My point again is that our features, damned near everything but interviews, are driven by opinion. Asking us to remove our own thoughts and opinions towards any one topic would defeat the purpose of a site where the content is fueled by those thoughts and opinions.
I remember being banned soley because I pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUP after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?
I'd have to assume the tone or attitude you posted in was less then favorable. There is a ton of negative posts on this website. Hell, you see just pure venom being spit at certain games, yet a lot of the posters are not banned. So again, I'd have to assume you must of been either posted your opinion in a less then civil manner. But who knows I could be wrong.
No, he probably wasn't banned for his attitude or anything like that. I know people who get banned for just stating their opinions . I've gotten warned for really tiny stuff. This site is just stricter than others when it comes to any negativity. It doesn't stop me from posting though.
My point again is that our features, damned near everything but interviews, are driven by opinion. Asking us to remove our own thoughts and opinions towards any one topic would defeat the purpose of a site where the content is fueled by those thoughts and opinions.
I remember being banned soley because I pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUP after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?
In this site if you say something negative about a popular game it's considered trolling and unnecessary so they delete your post and ban you, however their "opinion" based reviews are ok in their eyes.
And on top of that, none of that changes the almost universally positive groupthink exercised by the writers/editors here.
It is a fact that in the 80+ TOR columns/features/articles/"news stories" all but one were openly praising and/or promoting the game. Mostly while over emphacizing/over valuing the "positive aspects" of this game while ignoring the negative aspects. And from more than 6 authors?
All from the fastest tanking MMO in history, you think maybe, there was something wrong in there to cause that?
And almost without exception, the article/column/feature/news story authors missed or ignored the factors causing that?
That is not "opinion" or coincidence, that is POLICY.
Feel free to check the articles, they are all on here.
About the article on topic here, I actually wrote that. I don't see much "spin". I wrote up exactly what I was told in the interview, and paraphrased the rest. And this line, however you read it, seems to echo STE's sentiment about why SWTOR went F2P:
"But Jeff and Matt both sound superbly optimistic that when the dust settles on the announcement and all is said and done... Star Wars: The Old Republic will be better off and so will the players."
Trust me when I say we're not trying to drum up hype, and neither are we in anyone's pockets. I work two full time jobs (this is one of them). I wish I had some of the box sales from D3 or SWTOR, believe me. But, what we all are... are gamers. We do get excited. We do get hyped. We try to give you our honest opinions when we feel them, and while you may disagree... they're still our honest opinions. I'll point at my own TERA review as an example. I loved the game, but saw its flaws as well.
Mike really loves SWTOR, and will stand by the score he gave it until he re-reviews it after the F2P launch (which will happen). Because at that time, it will deserve a re-review more than ever.
I hope you guys, especially those of you who feel down on our content, will stick around and keep reading. I believe our review process is far better these days than it was before I took over as ME, and I believe we've got a lot of plans for the next year to drive the site in even more openly honest directions.
The best part of running this site's content? Though some of you might never believe me here, is that our owners handle all advertisements and tell me to never worry one bit about any of them when it comes to content. We keep our writing and our revenue stream entirely separate from one another. Remember the original Earthrise score we doled out and the full-page ads that came out that same day? Let's just say that I don't think anyone bought that score. On average, our Metacritic reviews are lower than the industry's as a whole... though admittedly not by much. I'm just saying.
Tomorrow we will post our TSW score. It's likely higher than some of you would give it. And lower than others would mark it too. I can say it's above the Metacritic curve, and not by a little bit. But it's Suzie's own opinion, and she gives damn good reasoning as to why she scores it higher in some areas and lower in others. I hope, when you read it and all future reviews and editorials here at the site, that you'll take into consideration always one thing: we never hide the fact that the words we present to you are opinion, and opinion only.
Whether you agree with us is up to you. But are we shills? Not even a little bit.
Then you really shouldn't write reviews, at all. Objectivity should be a minimum requirement for anyone reviewing games for a site this popular.
Which brings me to Danny Wojcicki, his excellent and spot on review of SWTOR. MMORPG.com deleted it and fired him for writing 'a too controversial' review.
Yeah right..
Why did you say this? You know very well the reason why he was let go, and it wasn't because of his review, it was due to his conduct.
Might as well add my view on the site and how it's run.
I have recently removed my bookmark to the MMORPG homepage and put a bookmark to the General Discussions forum instead. To me, the homepage is so diluted and filled with things I don't care about that I'm no longer looking at it. Instead, I go to the News sections in the General Discussion forum so now and then and scan the thread titles whether anything catches my attention.
I have to admit that I read another site (Massively in case you want to know) more frequently now for news about MMORPGs. I find the other site much clearer to navigate, much more focused on news about MMORPGs and find the advertising there less obtrusive.
I'm usually in the habit to disable Adblock on sites I visit frequently and had done that for MMORPG.com as well, I'm aware that it costs money to run the sites and to pay the salaries. Thus me watching ads is kinda necessary to keep the sites financed. No problem. However, I've put MMORPG on Adblock some time ago, it's just too much for me to read a forum while I have four Flash ads throwing "Buy Now!!!" buttons at me - at times it feels like watching ads on 4 TV screens simultaniously. (FYI - I have Adblock disabled on that other site I mentioned.)
More on topic than the above general remarks:
I'm aware that it's difficult to keep a good balance. But I also consider MMORPG.com rather unbalanced. To me it's clear that MMORPG.com has the tendency to promote the industry and their products by joining their hype, noise and excitement - a hype, noise and excitement that is laughable at times. It wouldn't be as bad if there were more opposing viewpoints - but on MMORPG.com there are precious little. MMORPG.com certainly doesn't have a critical view on the industry, far from that in my personal opinion.
I don't know whether that's a necessary policy to get information, interview opportunities and ad revenue from the studios and publishers - that's outside my area of knowledge. But personally I would certainly appreciate a more balanced and critical approach to the gaming industry and their products.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Originally posted by Gorilla Thanks, no doubt that more and more are using mobiles. Tapatalk would be cool too...it's the premiere forum app for mobile devices.
I've brought up Tapatalk in the past. I'll bring it up again and see where we're at on that.
My point again is that our features, damned near everything but interviews, are driven by opinion. Asking us to remove our own thoughts and opinions towards any one topic would defeat the purpose of a site where the content is fueled by those thoughts and opinions.
I remember being banned soley because I pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUP after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?
I'd have to assume the tone or attitude you posted in was less then favorable. There is a ton of negative posts on this website. Hell, you see just pure venom being spit at certain games, yet a lot of the posters are not banned. So again, I'd have to assume you must of been either posted your opinion in a less then civil manner. But who knows I could be wrong.
No, he probably wasn't banned for his attitude or anything like that. I know people who get banned for just stating their opinions . I've gotten warned for really tiny stuff. This site is just stricter than others when it comes to any negativity. It doesn't stop me from posting though.
No one is banned for stating their opinions (as long as those opinions don't violate our RoC, writing up a blog about your favorite drugs isn't going to fly!). In any case, it's not necessarily what you say, but more importantly, how you say it.
I've stated this countless times before, but we're not interested in making the lives of regular posters miserable with our ROC. The harshest punishments come to those who are looking to cause nothing but grief and add toxicity to the community. If you have some momentary lapse of judgment here and there and say something to someone else that you probably shouldn't, your account isn't likely to be in any jeopardy.
Anyways, this thread is about editorial, not moderation policy.
My point again is that our features, damned near everything but interviews, are driven by opinion. Asking us to remove our own thoughts and opinions towards any one topic would defeat the purpose of a site where the content is fueled by those thoughts and opinions.
I remember being banned soley because I pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUP after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.
Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?
In this site if you say something negative about a popular game it's considered trolling and unnecessary so they delete your post and ban you, however their "opinion" based reviews are ok in their eyes.
And on top of that, none of that changes the almost universally positive groupthink exercised by the writers/editors here.
It is a fact that in the 80+ TOR columns/features/articles/"news stories" all but one were openly praising and/or promoting the game. Mostly while over emphacizing/over valuing the "positive aspects" of this game while ignoring the negative aspects. And from more than 6 authors?
All from the fastest tanking MMO in history, you think maybe, there was something wrong in there to cause that?
And almost without exception, the article/column/feature/news story authors missed or ignored the factors causing that?
That is not "opinion" or coincidence, that is POLICY.
Feel free to check the articles, they are all on here.
One has to remember this website has no interest in journalism,accuracy, providing information or helping the MMO genre. All they care about here is making money. Their interest is in page hits only. Nothing more. Which means they write articles with provocative sexy titles, blindly hype games to create interest and keep people coming back, let fanboys run wild over the forums, censor critical posts, and hire writers with limited MMO expereince who play MMOs only in the most casual of definitions.
It is a shame that websites like mmorpg.com sell out for the dollar as there really is a need for a legitmate, honest and accurate MMO website. One that caters to actual players rather than one that is just used as a vehicle for developers to hype and advertise their games.
But what is even worse is the damage that websites like MMORPG.COM do the genre. They hype bad games while turining a blind eye to a games faults and to developer lies and exaggerations they either know is untrue or should know. They allow companies to lie, mislead and get away with selling unfinished poorly made games. Their previews are limited to just repeating developer talking points without questioning anything they are told. They do this because their only interest is in making money and not being anything close to a legitimate newsite. As being critical or objective might damage the relationships they have with developers and offend the fanboys. When people talk about the decline in MMOs and ask why and how this has occured, They need to look no further than mmorpg.com which has been a major contributor behind the "McDonaldization" of this genre.
I definitely agree.
The sites like this one, that hype up and do literally dozens of overly positive articles about games with significant faults (that are magically overlooked) or that are simply mediocre, are to blame along with the game companies that put them out.
These sites help create the hype, that is not warranted, and then people buy these games, sometimes depending on site "official" reviews and then are disappointed or angry when the games are crap/incomplete/same old thing and all of that is NOT mentioned the previews/features/reviews/whatever else they want to call it.
A review with no objectivity is worthless.
A review site with no objective reviews is likewise, worthless.
Mobile friendly I would hope? In the interim please for the love of MMO's fix the forum software so that at least tablets/phones post with formatting intact!!!!!!! Sorry about excessive exclamation marks but it is getting close to driving me away. (yeah i know good ridance) Since getting one of the new iPads for my birthday it has become my interface of choice for..... well nearly everything.
I'll forward this to Evan and Meddle for looking into. As far as I know, the new design will leave a lot of the forums intact, with a facelift. So maybe they can look at this in the meantime.
Thanks! Fixed. Now all we need is support for mobile apps (tapatalk being the leader). Even got emotes now!
I am kind of tired of coming here and looking at articles that put a positive spin on things that are clearly negative. The latest insult to my mind is how all these articles are being written about SW:TOR going F2P and having the gall to say that it's not because the game is an abject failure. Wake up and smell the humus MMORPG.com.
SW:TOR is not going F2P because EA is being kind or made a financial mistake in making SW:TOR P2P instead of F2P. F2P isn't always the "go to" model. If that was true all those P2P MMORPGs out there would be doing badly, which they clearly aren't. I'm tired of people thinking that if P2P games don't have a ridiculous amount of players in them than they are failures. RIFT is a good example of a game that is doing well with the P2P subscription model and they most certainly don't have millions of players.
The reason why SW:TOR is going F2P is because players realized that SW:TOR wasn't as good as many sites (such as this site) hyped it up to be. It's because the atrocious amount of money dumped into SW:TOR still didn't fix the fact that not enough love or patience was put into the game. You can hype a game to kingdom come, but it's the players that play the game and it's their opinions and wallets that matter the most and they've clearly spoken.
As a writer it hurts me to see that a lot of articles on MMORPG.com are written to hype up a game instead of to write about it with 100% honesty. I still have a ton of respect for MMORPG.com, but I'm definitely starting to lose a bit everytime I see such articles.
Couldn't agree more. Another example is Turbine, who have angered a lot of customers since announcing F2P. They create smaller expansions and charge more each time. They miseld the players and got them to buy their currency by telling them they could use it to buy expansions. And then when the first F2P expanion was announced they claimed you could only preorder or buy the full expansion on release for cash. They stated this was due to a technical limitation of their store software, a limitation they haven't bothered to fix this year either. Turbine chooses to mislead the sheep because they know they will double dip with cash and point purchases.
The writers at this site only hype the expansion and mounted combat. They are so concerned with selling advertiser space that they are afraid to rail against developers or stand up for the actual players. It's rather pathetic.
It's pretty much how the world works. It's the same in world politics, people lie but it's obvious to the masses that they have to say it even though it doesn't make sense. But if you look around, there's people who have a different approach, and acctually says whats on their mind. Both in politics and videogame critisism
That's why I love user blogs on gaming a lot more at times because they seem to be more truthful because they aren't being backed up by sponsers or advertisements.
Same....I jsut dont know how many kickbacks alot of these sites get in exchange for positive reviews......Even some of the posters here we just dont know if someone from Funcom or EA or Mythic or some other company created an account to drum up business.
I don't think developers pay this site under the table. The developers can simply say if you harshly criticize us we'll pull advertisements. In most cases that's not even required, MMORPG knows that's how it works and is careful with what they put in reviews and articles.
In response to those who say that games go f2p only because they are doing badly and that p2p is always more profitable, I submit LotRO. At the time of its f2p conversion LotRO was one of the most well-respected games on the market and had a lot more subscribers than most of its competitors. It went f2p because Turbine believed that they had found a model that was more profitable than p2p and so they converted their flag-ship game. Whether or not they actually have been more profitable I have no idea.
LOTRO was quickly dying when they announced F2P. They released a half ass expansion in SoM and were quickly losing susbcribers. LOTRO was not going gangbusters when they went F2P. They were on a major downward spiral due to Turbine cutting way back on content and updates.
In response to those who say that games go f2p only because they are doing badly and that p2p is always more profitable, I submit LotRO. At the time of its f2p conversion LotRO was one of the most well-respected games on the market and had a lot more subscribers than most of its competitors. It went f2p because Turbine believed that they had found a model that was more profitable than p2p and so they converted their flag-ship game. Whether or not they actually have been more profitable I have no idea.
LOTRO was quickly dying when they announced F2P. They released a half ass expansion in SoM and were quickly losing susbcribers. LOTRO was not going gangbusters when they went F2P. They were on a major downward spiral due to Turbine cutting way back on content and updates.
Does anyone remember the F2P trailer? You'd think a game that had Warner Bros. at their disposal would be able to hire some better actors... Of course the trailer for Riders of Rohan expansion had even worse acting.
Also to those talking about objectivity, apparently from what I've summarized from the comments from some of the writers, objectivity is not their goal. They have the ones who really like a game write about it (it's bad if you want a review that highlights the bads objectively, but I guess that's the way they do it here).
On the right there you can see the user score for SW:TOR is 5.6. compared to their 8.7 rating. Of course user rating on here is also 7.2 so I'm note quite sure how that works.
I enjoy reading the articles on this site as they are usually entertaining and provoke decent discussions. I don't mind that the site I am visiting is mmorpg.COM and not mmorpg.ORG. Being subjected to four advetisements on every page view, is not ideal- but I'm not paying a subscription or donating, so whatever pays the bills. What I began to find absolutely revolting about the "official reviews" I am now starting to regard as responsible journalism.
It had reached the point where I was on the verge of creating a thread titled "Credibility, Integrity, Game Reviews, and Ad Revenues". I had done some limited research on the subject, Reviewers vs. Advertisers, and Bad Reviews & Being Nice. I remembered a poll asking the question "What is your favorite feature on MMORPG.com?", and the results made it clear without a doubt that the main attraction of this site for viewers are the Reviews (14180 participants voted). That certainly was the case for myself when I first came here looking for a new game to play.
I hadn't been motivated to post in the forums here until reading the mmorpg.com "official review" of Darkfall, linked in the Aventurine official forums. The game had its flaws- yet, it was palatable to the niche audience that had been seeking such an offering and enjoying the game for over 2 years. I compared my in-game experiences to the review and realized the staff here write to the mainstream casual audience, as mainstream causual gamers (not experienced gamers writing for the eyes of other experienced gaming consumers).
In Sean Bulger's Darkfall review he mentions one of the cons as "little content". Let that sink in for a minute, reaming a sandbox game for not being themepark enough. A game that lasted me 2 years with one of the slowest developers at the helm has "little content" but here we are in 2012 and I read about the great longevity of TSW after reaching the end and growing sick of the grind after only two weeks. This same author's review of Aion does not mention the word "grind" in the cons list (the main reason I quit that game at release). Of course this was before Bill took the reins as ME- and the reviews since then have become more subjectively balanced, but still lack the objectivity I would expect from journalists being paid to examine a product.
I encourage the staff of this site to analyze the mission statement from Consumer Reports, an organization providing reviews with the consumers best interests in mind.
"Consumer Reports (CR) is an expert, independent, nonprofit organization whose mission is to work for a fair, just, and safe marketplace for all consumers and to empower consumers to protect themselves. The organization was founded in 1936 when advertising first flooded the mass media. Consumers lacked a reliable source of information they could depend on to help them distinguish hype from fact and good products from bad ones. Since then CR has filled that vacuum with a broad range of consumer information. To maintain its independence and impartiality, CR accepts no outside advertising and no free samples and employs several hundred mystery shoppers and technical experts to buy and test the products it evaluates."
Rest assured, I am not suggesting this site adopt some radical new financial model in the hopes of appearing less biased. Consumer Reports is supported by subscriptions and donations, while I enjoy the content of this site for free. What I would like to see are more consistent, methodical and objective reviews that cause me to praise the writer's integrity instead of experienceing the revolting feeling I may be hearing about your findings through the language of salesmanship.
The rationalization I came to when thinking about starting that thread (and ultimately the reason I dropped the issue until reading through this thread) was embodied in a couple old cliches. According to Voltiare, "with power comes responsibility". Bacon tells us, "knowledge is power". I looked at the most recent review which discusses the numerous bugs in TSW. Suzie acknowledged them in a responsible manner in her written review. The majority have been dealt with, and certainly anyone checking her review with the intention of trying the game for the first time would not be bothered by already-squashed bugs.
Yet, parts of the review strike me as purposefully short-sighted. It's not like you guys are rocking the boat with cutting edge reviews here- at the point of publication you have the benefit of digesting nearly every other major and minor site's reviews in addition to knowing the average user-score here at mmorpg.com. Feigning limited knowledge of the current abysmal end-game and resting on future potential allowed her to give the game a great forecast in the longevity department with what I assume to be a clear conscience. At the time of publishing that review the majority of the playerbase was barely scratching the half-way point of the game's content. They won't know any better for a few months, and by that time maybe Funcom will get the game into a sustainable subscription state. I suppose either way she acted responsibly by giving the developer the benefit of the doubt, and not prematurely turning away potential customers.
One change I would like to see are more specific review categories. Lumping PvE, PvP, and crafting into "Gameplay" for a score of 8.5 does not reflect the written word of great PvE, badly designed PvP and useless crafting (at least not to me).
Comments
In this site if you say something negative about a popular game it's considered trolling and unnecessary so they delete your post and ban you, however their "opinion" based reviews are ok in their eyes.
It does seem like every game gets fairly positive press.
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I'd have to assume the tone or attitude you posted in was less then favorable. There is a ton of negative posts on this website. Hell, you see just pure venom being spit at certain games, yet a lot of the posters are not banned. So again, I'd have to assume you must of been either posted your opinion in a less then civil manner. But who knows I could be wrong.
Thanks for the heads up. I'm a big fan of Edge, leaving the scoring aside they write with insight and intelligence. Not only are they gaming enthusiasts they are publishing pros. They carry advertising of course but it is for within the industry, largely jobs, tools, etc. that actualy reflects that the industry (and not just the marketing dept) percieves them. I have said before I really think there is room for a more 'serious' games site, I guess gammasutra comes close. I have nothing against opinion but any journalist worth his salt Will make it crystal clear what are facts and what is opinion. When I read an article I want to be informed, I want details, I want genuine insight, sure toss an opinion or two in but please not an endless stream of gushing, rose tinted, fluff. The DCUO coverage was a perfect example of enthusiasm and personal 'feeling' causing a complete disconnect from the reality that was the game. Even a small step back to view from a wider perspective woul have revealed stuff that it was frankly inexcusable (IMHO) to miss. Sorry no paragraphs mmorpg.com is not mobile device friendly....a much bigger issue than quality of journalism.I understand what your saying and I agree with a lot of things about SWTOR being over-hyped. But don't blame mmorpg.com. They are a site dedicated to mmorpgs. They hype EVERY mmorpg - no matter how shitty or how great they are. You claim you are a writer, so i'm surprised your would attack their writing. Is this the first fansite you've been too?
SWTOR was a triple A title, despite how disappointing it was. Of course they will continue to provide coverage on the game during its first year of release. They did it for Warhammer, they did it for Aion, they did it for EQ2, ect.
Your huge, angry bias is making you blind towards a normal, "news from fans, for fans" type of system. Thats just silly.
I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.
In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section. Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features. The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds. Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.
However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.
Mobile friendly I would hope? In the interim please for the love of MMO's fix the forum software so that at least tablets/phones post with formatting intact!!!!!!! Sorry about excessive exclamation marks but it is getting close to driving me away. (yeah i know good ridance) Since getting one of the new iPads for my birthday it has become my interface of choice for..... well nearly everything.I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.
In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section. Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features. The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds. Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.
However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.
Bill, the problem here is that the Official MMORPG.com Articles have a LOT more weight than say forum threads or user Blogs here.
MMORPG.com isn't a fan site, and it isn't treated as such. MMORPG.com is treated as an MMO NEWS SITE, and one of the LARGEST aspects of being a NEWS SITE is that all of your Articles, and Article Writers, should be as close to Objective as humanly possible.
That's what being a Reporter, of a "News Site", is all about...being Objective. My English Professor would probably fail you for more than 9/10 of the Articles you, or anyone else, has written here because you're too Subjective & personally involved.
Not to mention the fact that, again Articles posted here have more weight as announcements and "Officiality", puts them under even larger microscopes than the normal forums.
The review, and adamant defending of SWTOR's obvious failure to the industry, is only adding fuel to the fire when it's not a forum topic being posted, but an OFFICIAL Article by MMORPG.com staff.
Cut them some slack. Watch the new HBO series, Newsroom and you will have a better understanding.
Pass, true journalism seems to only be in the Newspaper anymore, or with Online Indie News companies. It's like MMORPG.com is FauxNews for MMOs
. That's how I feel anyways lol!
I completely agree with your points faded. Its certainly not just Mikes article. It's a question of editorial style and direction. Or, without wanting to give offence, lack of it. To be fare its not just mmorpg.com. The baby seems to have been thrown out with the bath water in the transition from traditional media.In general, you don't pee on your own doorstep. A lot of gaming journalists tend to give positive spins on games as they get 'freebies' like advance info/access/favoritism from companies if they scratch their backs. I've worked in the gaming industry (and couldn't wait to get out partially for this incenstuous reason). With this motivation, they are doing their readers a diservice. Another way of going about it, is to become a ruthlessly objective, respected critic whose option is looked to, thereby generating a huge fanbase so that they are too well liked by customers to be snubbed by companies. Unfortunately, many choose the first option, it's easier. I don't want to be unfair to the staff on this site though, I don't want to second guess their motives.
Another possibility is that it can be hard as a game lover to totally crap on a huge effort of a game even if it's not as good as tauted because you know beneath that cruel corporate (EA) veneer there's a bunch of well-intentioned artists and writers that put their hearts and souls into something...then some suited (EA) type came to them and said 'right we're releasing this in half the time so you'd better make it good by then' *SLAM* Big money is both the enabler and the curse of modern gaming.
One has to remember this website has no interest in journalism,accuracy, providing information or helping the MMO genre. All they care about here is making money. Their interest is in page hits only. Nothing more. Which means they write articles with provactive sexy titles, blindly hype games to create interest and keep people coming back, let fanboys run wild over the forums, censor critical posts, and hire writers with limited MMO expereince who play MMOs only in the most casual of definitions.
The end result is mainstream MMO websites, especially this one, do a lot of damage to consumers and the genre. As they hype bad games and allow companies to lie, mislead and get away with selling unfinished games. They help sell bad games and turn a blind eye to a games faults because their only interest is in making money and being anything close to a legitimate newsite will make them less money and possibly damage the relationships they have with developers. When people talk about the decline in MMOs and ask why and how this has occured, They need to look no further than mmorpg.com which has been a major contributor behind the simplyifying and "McDonaldization" of the genre.
It is a shame that websites like this sellout for the dollar as there really is a need for a legitmate, honest and accurate MMO website. One that caters to actual players rather than one that is just used as a vehicle for developers to hype and advertise their games.
Cynical and cold, sadly that's probably the truth of the matter.Simply put, Trav? The forums are not my area of expertise. I run content. Mike runs moderation. And his word there is law. But if you have a question about why you were banned, I do know he'll gladly tell you. Just shoot him a PM.
And no, we do NOT get paid hype games. We get paid to present information and offer our opinions. Sometimes that will stir hype, and other times it will deflate it. Any real hype that surrounds a game comes from not just our writing, but the entirety of the internet. Journalists, pundits, and bloggers? We're not the only reason GW2 has a high hype score here. In fact, it was hovering at the near 9 mark before anyone played it or started reporting on it here. Just a thought.
And lastly? If we're excited about a game, of course we're going to tell you we are. I'm not going to "pretend" not to like something just so I don't "influence" you. We'll write as much detail about a game as we can, but we're also going to offer our opinions with it. It's just how it's done.
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I'll forward this to Evan and Meddle for looking into. As far as I know, the new design will leave a lot of the forums intact, with a facelift. So maybe they can look at this in the meantime.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
My Review Manifesto
Follow me on Twitter if you dare.
No, he probably wasn't banned for his attitude or anything like that. I know people who get banned for just stating their opinions . I've gotten warned for really tiny stuff. This site is just stricter than others when it comes to any negativity. It doesn't stop me from posting though.
Smile
And on top of that, none of that changes the almost universally positive groupthink exercised by the writers/editors here.
It is a fact that in the 80+ TOR columns/features/articles/"news stories" all but one were openly praising and/or promoting the game. Mostly while over emphacizing/over valuing the "positive aspects" of this game while ignoring the negative aspects. And from more than 6 authors?
All from the fastest tanking MMO in history, you think maybe, there was something wrong in there to cause that?
And almost without exception, the article/column/feature/news story authors missed or ignored the factors causing that?
That is not "opinion" or coincidence, that is POLICY.
Feel free to check the articles, they are all on here.
Why did you say this? You know very well the reason why he was let go, and it wasn't because of his review, it was due to his conduct.
Might as well add my view on the site and how it's run.
I have recently removed my bookmark to the MMORPG homepage and put a bookmark to the General Discussions forum instead. To me, the homepage is so diluted and filled with things I don't care about that I'm no longer looking at it. Instead, I go to the News sections in the General Discussion forum so now and then and scan the thread titles whether anything catches my attention.
I have to admit that I read another site (Massively in case you want to know) more frequently now for news about MMORPGs. I find the other site much clearer to navigate, much more focused on news about MMORPGs and find the advertising there less obtrusive.
I'm usually in the habit to disable Adblock on sites I visit frequently and had done that for MMORPG.com as well, I'm aware that it costs money to run the sites and to pay the salaries. Thus me watching ads is kinda necessary to keep the sites financed. No problem. However, I've put MMORPG on Adblock some time ago, it's just too much for me to read a forum while I have four Flash ads throwing "Buy Now!!!" buttons at me - at times it feels like watching ads on 4 TV screens simultaniously. (FYI - I have Adblock disabled on that other site I mentioned.)
More on topic than the above general remarks:
I'm aware that it's difficult to keep a good balance. But I also consider MMORPG.com rather unbalanced. To me it's clear that MMORPG.com has the tendency to promote the industry and their products by joining their hype, noise and excitement - a hype, noise and excitement that is laughable at times. It wouldn't be as bad if there were more opposing viewpoints - but on MMORPG.com there are precious little. MMORPG.com certainly doesn't have a critical view on the industry, far from that in my personal opinion.
I don't know whether that's a necessary policy to get information, interview opportunities and ad revenue from the studios and publishers - that's outside my area of knowledge. But personally I would certainly appreciate a more balanced and critical approach to the gaming industry and their products.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I've brought up Tapatalk in the past. I'll bring it up again and see where we're at on that.
No one is banned for stating their opinions (as long as those opinions don't violate our RoC, writing up a blog about your favorite drugs isn't going to fly!). In any case, it's not necessarily what you say, but more importantly, how you say it.
I've stated this countless times before, but we're not interested in making the lives of regular posters miserable with our ROC. The harshest punishments come to those who are looking to cause nothing but grief and add toxicity to the community. If you have some momentary lapse of judgment here and there and say something to someone else that you probably shouldn't, your account isn't likely to be in any jeopardy.
Anyways, this thread is about editorial, not moderation policy.
I definitely agree.
The sites like this one, that hype up and do literally dozens of overly positive articles about games with significant faults (that are magically overlooked) or that are simply mediocre, are to blame along with the game companies that put them out.
These sites help create the hype, that is not warranted, and then people buy these games, sometimes depending on site "official" reviews and then are disappointed or angry when the games are crap/incomplete/same old thing and all of that is NOT mentioned the previews/features/reviews/whatever else they want to call it.
A review with no objectivity is worthless.
A review site with no objective reviews is likewise, worthless.
Thanks! Fixed. Now all we need is support for mobile apps (tapatalk being the leader).
Even got emotes now!
Couldn't agree more. Another example is Turbine, who have angered a lot of customers since announcing F2P. They create smaller expansions and charge more each time. They miseld the players and got them to buy their currency by telling them they could use it to buy expansions. And then when the first F2P expanion was announced they claimed you could only preorder or buy the full expansion on release for cash. They stated this was due to a technical limitation of their store software, a limitation they haven't bothered to fix this year either. Turbine chooses to mislead the sheep because they know they will double dip with cash and point purchases.
The writers at this site only hype the expansion and mounted combat. They are so concerned with selling advertiser space that they are afraid to rail against developers or stand up for the actual players. It's rather pathetic.
I don't think developers pay this site under the table. The developers can simply say if you harshly criticize us we'll pull advertisements. In most cases that's not even required, MMORPG knows that's how it works and is careful with what they put in reviews and articles.
LOTRO was quickly dying when they announced F2P. They released a half ass expansion in SoM and were quickly losing susbcribers. LOTRO was not going gangbusters when they went F2P. They were on a major downward spiral due to Turbine cutting way back on content and updates.
Does anyone remember the F2P trailer? You'd think a game that had Warner Bros. at their disposal would be able to hire some better actors... Of course the trailer for Riders of Rohan expansion had even worse acting.
Also to those talking about objectivity, apparently from what I've summarized from the comments from some of the writers, objectivity is not their goal. They have the ones who really like a game write about it (it's bad if you want a review that highlights the bads objectively, but I guess that's the way they do it here).
If you want user scores all you can really do is check http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/star-wars-the-old-republic
On the right there you can see the user score for SW:TOR is 5.6. compared to their 8.7 rating. Of course user rating on here is also 7.2 so I'm note quite sure how that works.
Smile
I enjoy reading the articles on this site as they are usually entertaining and provoke decent discussions. I don't mind that the site I am visiting is mmorpg.COM and not mmorpg.ORG. Being subjected to four advetisements on every page view, is not ideal- but I'm not paying a subscription or donating, so whatever pays the bills. What I began to find absolutely revolting about the "official reviews" I am now starting to regard as responsible journalism.
It had reached the point where I was on the verge of creating a thread titled "Credibility, Integrity, Game Reviews, and Ad Revenues". I had done some limited research on the subject, Reviewers vs. Advertisers, and Bad Reviews & Being Nice. I remembered a poll asking the question "What is your favorite feature on MMORPG.com?", and the results made it clear without a doubt that the main attraction of this site for viewers are the Reviews (14180 participants voted). That certainly was the case for myself when I first came here looking for a new game to play.
Interviews - 8.8%
Forums - 21.9%
Weekly Columnists - 7.3%
Reviews - 41.5%
Developer Journals - 5.1%
Event Coverage (ComicCon, GDC, AGC, E3 etc.) - 9.3%
Podcast - 6.1%