People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.
It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?
First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.
You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.
You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.
These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.
Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.
It's sad. Very, very sad.
I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.
A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point.
Originally posted by Bladestrom So cosmetic gear progression is bad, but if they have ever increasing stats that destroys the playability of everything appart from the last tier of items then the game has a rich end game. Brilliant. Read the above links if you are really interested in learning about alternate end game styles.
Ps bc, eve and gw1 have no stat progression- what do you think of those?
No. Atleast that's not how I feel. I feel only having a cosmetic gear grind is inadequate and a reach to call endgame.
luckily cosmetic gear is only one of the many options you have to strive for in GW2
And there is where this 60 page debate comes in
people have given a lot of examples on what you can strive for over the course of this thread.. If it's nothing that interests you that's fine but there is a LOT to do throughout this game and when you happen to reach level 80. On a side note why can't people see others may just enjoy the DE's and will do them for fun as part of their "endgame" You can go to any area you like and enjoy them. Most are varied and offer numerous options and outcomes unlike say Rift where its basically the same thing over and over. Orr looks like a lot of fun and I'm sure people will be spending a lot of time in there. Then you have PVP which is incredibly fun and is an entire other game within itself in many ways anyway. If you enjoy the races, the classes, the pvp, the DE's, the exploration, the hidden things to find, you will be enjoying this game for a long time.
All of those things except Orr are the samethings you do all game though. Thus this debate.
There is no debate. It's just you trying to come up with at least something that will make GW2 look less appealing. Give it up and go back to your game.
Buddy, I didn't start this fire.
62 pages says there is a debate going on. You dening that does not erase this thread.
edit - 63 pages.
How many of thoes pages are you refusing to stop spewing the same tired lines? Despite waves of people answering your garbage again and again.
Disgusting that you can continue this cherade with no intervention in sight.
Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)
we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...
Some people just - don't - get it.
I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.
People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.
It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?
First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.
You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.
You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.
These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.
Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.
It's sad. Very, very sad.
I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.
It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.
Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)
we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...
Some people just - don't - get it.
I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.
People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.
It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?
First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.
You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.
You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.
These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.
Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.
It's sad. Very, very sad.
I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.
Correct but in UO once you hit "cap" there was no stat progression. There was only content.
You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?
Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).
TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids (in less than 30 days) along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.
You see the difference?
All I see is a linear quest progression through 8 zones and harder versions of the same instances you already did as you were leveling up. Oh and zergy PvP.
Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)
we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...
Some people just - don't - get it.
I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.
People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.
It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?
First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.
You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.
You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.
These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.
Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.
It's sad. Very, very sad.
+1
Ah the good ole days. I don't know why so many people are fixated on chasing carrots nowadays. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love progression. But I don't really care about numbers going up, I love progression because I love discovery. Discovering a new ability, new skill combinations that open up with a new slot, new lands I can go to. That's why I like progression. I never got the appeal of watching 2049 turn into 2149.
But I guess that's why I always quit themepark MMORPGs when or before I get max level.
I love cosmetics, but cosmetics only as endgame progression? That's thin and stretching it to call it endgame.
If you love cosmetics (assuming we are talking about cosmetic items, and not makeup), then you should understand the appeal it can have for gamers.
GW2 isn't the first, and won't be the last game that has cosmetic rewards as the primary 'grind'. Every single MOBA has a cosmetic reward system. Planetside 2 is also releasing with a cosmetic reward system.
Cosmetic rewards aren't all that GW2 has to offer, but if someone can only think of games in terms of a verticle gear progression scheme, then they will absolutely fail to really understand what GW2 is doing. As BadSpock has pointed out, this isn't even the first MMO to have such an 'endgame', it's just that most people only know the skinnerbox model, and so they just can't comprehend a game that isn't based around the skinnerbox model. Furthermore, most people (on this site at least) seem to have gotten it in their head that MMOs can't have similar design mechanics to any other type of game, even when there's a ton of examples of this working just fine.
Originally posted by Bladestrom So cosmetic gear progression is bad, but if they have ever increasing stats that destroys the playability of everything appart from the last tier of items then the game has a rich end game. Brilliant. Read the above links if you are really interested in learning about alternate end game styles.
Ps bc, eve and gw1 have no stat progression- what do you think of those?
No. Atleast that's not how I feel. I feel only having a cosmetic gear grind is inadequate and a reach to call endgame.
luckily cosmetic gear is only one of the many options you have to strive for in GW2
And there is where this 60 page debate comes in
people have given a lot of examples on what you can strive for over the course of this thread.. If it's nothing that interests you that's fine but there is a LOT to do throughout this game and when you happen to reach level 80. On a side note why can't people see others may just enjoy the DE's and will do them for fun as part of their "endgame" You can go to any area you like and enjoy them. Most are varied and offer numerous options and outcomes unlike say Rift where its basically the same thing over and over. Orr looks like a lot of fun and I'm sure people will be spending a lot of time in there. Then you have PVP which is incredibly fun and is an entire other game within itself in many ways anyway. If you enjoy the races, the classes, the pvp, the DE's, the exploration, the hidden things to find, you will be enjoying this game for a long time.
All of those things except Orr are the samethings you do all game though. Thus this debate.
There is no debate. It's just you trying to come up with at least something that will make GW2 look less appealing. Give it up and go back to your game.
Buddy, I didn't start this fire.
62 pages says there is a debate going on. You dening that does not erase this thread.
edit - 63 pages.
How many of thoes pages are you refusing to stop spewing the same tired lines? Despite waves of people answering your garbage again and again.
Disgusting that you can continue this cherade with no intervention in sight.
about 2 of those pages are from me saying that cosmetic gear grind alon as a form of endgame progression is weak and a stretch to call it end game at all.
You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?
Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).
TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids in less than 30 days along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.
You see the difference?
TSW does not have raids right now. But I'll just magically say they are there for the sake of arguement.
You can do dungeons in GW2 and there are multiple difficulty levels.
GW2 version of raids is Orr and it will have it at launch.
So no. I see only a semantic difference at best. Everything you do while leveling in TSW is the same stuff you do at max level. By your logic, TSW has no endgame because you can do it all as you level up.
Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)
we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...
Some people just - don't - get it.
I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.
People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.
It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?
First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.
You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.
You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.
These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.
Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.
It's sad. Very, very sad.
I have never played either UO or SWG (although I did play GW1) and I get the concept. Thus, it's not a difficult concept to understand, which leads me to one logical conclusion: Those who don't "understand" it, are just being obtuse. If they stopped for a moment and thought outside their "endgame = raid = gear grind" mentality, they would figure it out pretty quickly.
I mean, how many times can the same thing be repeated in one thread and the same people over and over prove they don't get it?
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?
Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).
TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids (in less than 30 days) along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.
You see the difference?
All I see is a linear quest progression through 8 zones and harder versions of the same instances you already did as you were leveling up. Oh and zergy PvP.
Oh dear.
Another thing he's overlooking is that all the horiztonal skill progression TSW is overshadowed by the insanely heavy importance it places on gear. Thus, even though the cover of the game is based around customization, in reality it's still based off a gear grind skinner-box model. Only instead of grinding for 1 classes set of gear, you get to grind for all classes gear on 1 character. It's not unlike FFXI in that regard.
You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?
Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).
TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids (in less than 30 days) along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.
You see the difference?
Nope nor do I personally care. TSW did not interest me at all. If i wanted a game were I had to raid for the best gear (aka the hamster wheel) I'd stick with WoW and panda's. Atm i'm not really sure if you don't understand how GW2 is trying to be a little different, or if you care. Alot of us here like GW2, and I have not seen many of us go flame other game's, but that could be because I don't check those forum's much.
I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.
A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point.
Originally posted by Xzen
Correct but in UO once you hit "cap" there was no stat progression. There was only content.
Originally posted by heartless
It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.
I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do.
Sounds like you kinda got it!
Another way to look at it would be in thinking of Skyrim vs. Final Fantasy. In Skyrim you can rush through the game and beat it pretty quickly, if that's your goal. Or you can go back to areas you passed by and check them out, etc. You're correct, there are a lot of options, and endgame is really what you make of it. It also doesn't magically change from what you have been doing up to that point (hence anet's claim that 'the whole game is endgame').
I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do.
Sounds like you kinda got it!
Another way to look at it would be in thinking of Skyrim vs. Final Fantasy. In Skyrim you can rush through the game and beat it pretty quickly, if that's your goal. Or you can go back to areas you passed by and check them out, etc. You're correct, there are a lot of options, and endgame is really what you make of it. It also doesn't magically change from what you have been doing up to that point (hence anet's claim that 'the whole game is endgame').
at least someone understands now:)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
There is no debate. It's just you trying to come up with at least something that will make GW2 look less appealing. Give it up and go back to your game.
Buddy, I didn't start this fire.
62 pages says there is a debate going on. You dening that does not erase this thread.
edit - 63 pages.
How many of thoes pages are you refusing to stop spewing the same tired lines? Despite waves of people answering your garbage again and again.
Disgusting that you can continue this cherade with no intervention in sight.
An excellent question.
At the same time, how much effort has been expended by folks to try and change this person's opinion when his position and basic "arguments" have remained the same throughout this 60 pages. This appears to be an agenda, not a discussion.
Sometimes these forums represent an opportunity for a sincere exchange of information or debate, where people are willing to change or modify their opinions based on new data.
Do you think that is what is happening here?
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
There are some good points in this thread. I think the value-for-money argument listed above is a good one. Of course when viewed along those lines, there's very little reason not to play GW2 if you like single player games especially. There's just a lot of content to be played and many many hours of fun.
BUT! As I've posted, and many others have posted in other threads along these lines, it's not really about whether the game is fun for a few months. I think what these discussions are really about is "motivation" in the game post level cap. It's cool that they've gotten rid of the gear grind, I think a lot of people would agree to that. What's maybe not so cool (and I'm a huge fan of GW2 so I really WANT to like the endgame) is that on hitting 80, the cosmetic rewards might not be enough to motivate a lot of players.
Yes you can repeat or play the rest of the lower level content.
Yes you can do the dungeons.
Yes there is a pretty awesome WvWvW mode (but this is not attractive for some PvE'ers).
But really what people are worried about is a reward system. People want to "progress" or "evolve" their character in some way that's meaningful (and no, I don't consider different costumes evolving a character). I think that the skill points will do this for a while, until you max out what stats/skills your character has, but then what?
If I use Rift for a comparison. I'm not pumping Rift, I'm just using it as an example. Rift is built on a gear grind system, but it also has a post-level-cap level system called Planar Attunement : http://rift.zam.com/wiki/Planar_Attunement_(Rift)
This lets people continue to do quests, dynamic events, invasions, raids, whatever and leveling up their PA will let them distrubute poitns in this VERY large stat boost system. Rift also has 11 dungeons which also have multiple modes in which they can be completed (with different rewards).
I'm sorry to say, that even with so many dungeons, and multiple modes, they still get boring after a while.
But then on top of all this, Rift has 5 raid instances.
And oh yes one more, they have single player (or 2-player) versions of those raids, to include people who prefer not to raid in big groups.
Rift also has a down-leveling system to play with your friends at lower levels, and gain experience towards your Planar Attunement levels.
So back to GW2, it's great and I love it. I can't wait to play it. I'm going to love every minute of the leveling up experience, I can tell that already. The combat, I think, is superior to other games out there. But I just can't agree with a lot of the hype-posts about "JUST PLAY THE GAME!" or "ENDGAME STARTS AT LEVEL 2!" because I've played that game, and it's just not a valid argument when people question the longevity of the post-level-cap gameplay.
well considering that is Anets whole philosophy of how they built this game why is it not a valid argument? They said time and time again when you hit 80 it's not a complete 180 shift of what you will be doing in the game. The game was designed to play much of how you were leveling from 1-79 at level 80. If you did not enjoy or are the kind who only cares about getting that super rare drop that makes you that much stronger the game will not appeal to you as much. There are a sea of tier based gear grind for power games out there, Anet wanted to do something differn't and as someone who is tired of the gear grind to improve my character type MMO I welcome this new philosophy with open arms. Obviously there are a lot of people out their that enjoy the raid based gear grind endgame but having seen the trend of MMOs in the past decade I think it is time for a change for many people and feel gw2 brings that better than any before it.
No offense, but how do you know it will be enough? How do you know that the level scaling and the branching events will be enough for this to become your main game and that it will last you for months or years. You have only played a limited amount for a very short period of time. There is no harm in approaching the game skeptically. I think broadly stating something that you haven't experienced as fact is a little presumptive. He wasn't bashing GW2, he was just stating a concern that is completely valid and that no one has the answer too.
I don't have long since I have a night class soon, but basically read into what I am saying: You say that your opinion on GW2 is the only valid opinion based upon your own view of what games should have. Regardless of number of people who say things on internet forums: it is still an opinion. You are now trying to defend TSW because I was attacking it. You don't like that and pretend to make up statistics based on poor data just to back it up. (Number of registered users on a website as a sample size, you can't be serious) GW2 has no statistical data yet to prove either way other then data like what you have posted. So really there is no win here. Its all opinion.
The FACT is that GW2 does have an endgame. You just don't like it so you don't count it as end game. By your logic TSW has no end game as well because I do not consider what they have end game. Funny that even on the TSW forums I totally destroyed your arguments --based on opinions as facts-- (the ones you LOVE to bring up) and alot of people backed me up there as they do here. I don't have to make a signature about what I am saying since you will regret it and feel guilty about saying it in the first place. 9/5/12 if there is not a 10 man and 20 man raid you were wrong. Mark the day. I don't have to wait long though considering that you claimed Funcom will announce 750k subs in 2 days. Can't wait !;)
I never said that nor did I create this thread.
I love cosmetics, but cosmetics only as endgame progression? That's thin and stretching it to call it endgame.
Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)
we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...
Some people just - don't - get it.
I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.
People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.
It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?
First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.
You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.
You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.
These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.
Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.
It's sad. Very, very sad.
I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.
It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.
No. GW2 is not a world in the sense that SWG and UO were. GW2 is a game and a pretty good game, but not a world. SWG and UO were true virtual worlds in which people lived second lives. GW2 is more of a beautiful environment where people go to experience some pretty neat content.
I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do.
Sounds like you kinda got it!
Another way to look at it would be in thinking of Skyrim vs. Final Fantasy. In Skyrim you can rush through the game and beat it pretty quickly, if that's your goal. Or you can go back to areas you passed by and check them out, etc. You're correct, there are a lot of options, and endgame is really what you make of it. It also doesn't magically change from what you have been doing up to that point (hence anet's claim that 'the whole game is endgame').
Yeah, I can see that as well. I figured that's what they meant by that from the get go. They have their work cut out for them in that regard, as some have pointed out many of the current generation aren't going to understand such a concept in an MMORPG. They aren't exactly accustomed to making their own way in a game.
Just for clarification I was only questioning something said by Badspock earlier, wasn't really questioning the concept of end-game when it comes to GW2.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)
we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...
Some people just - don't - get it.
I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.
People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.
It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?
First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.
You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.
You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.
These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.
Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.
It's sad. Very, very sad.
I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.
It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.
No. GW2 is not a world in the sense that SWG and UO were. GW2 is a game and a pretty good game, but not a world. SWG and UO were true virtual worlds in which people lived second lives. GW2 is more of a beautiful environment where people go to experience some pretty neat content.
Re-read what I wrote. GW2 has a world, just like any MMO out there. It's not, however, an emulation of our world.
Comments
A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point.
I don't see the kings clothes?
ok guys I'm out will check in later for any new developments.
How many of thoes pages are you refusing to stop spewing the same tired lines? Despite waves of people answering your garbage again and again.
Disgusting that you can continue this cherade with no intervention in sight.
It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.
Correct but in UO once you hit "cap" there was no stat progression. There was only content.
My theme song.
All I see is a linear quest progression through 8 zones and harder versions of the same instances you already did as you were leveling up. Oh and zergy PvP.
+1
Ah the good ole days. I don't know why so many people are fixated on chasing carrots nowadays. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love progression. But I don't really care about numbers going up, I love progression because I love discovery. Discovering a new ability, new skill combinations that open up with a new slot, new lands I can go to. That's why I like progression. I never got the appeal of watching 2049 turn into 2149.
But I guess that's why I always quit themepark MMORPGs when or before I get max level.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
If you love cosmetics (assuming we are talking about cosmetic items, and not makeup), then you should understand the appeal it can have for gamers.
GW2 isn't the first, and won't be the last game that has cosmetic rewards as the primary 'grind'. Every single MOBA has a cosmetic reward system. Planetside 2 is also releasing with a cosmetic reward system.
Cosmetic rewards aren't all that GW2 has to offer, but if someone can only think of games in terms of a verticle gear progression scheme, then they will absolutely fail to really understand what GW2 is doing. As BadSpock has pointed out, this isn't even the first MMO to have such an 'endgame', it's just that most people only know the skinnerbox model, and so they just can't comprehend a game that isn't based around the skinnerbox model. Furthermore, most people (on this site at least) seem to have gotten it in their head that MMOs can't have similar design mechanics to any other type of game, even when there's a ton of examples of this working just fine.
about 2 of those pages are from me saying that cosmetic gear grind alon as a form of endgame progression is weak and a stretch to call it end game at all.
I'm out forealz this time.
TSW does not have raids right now. But I'll just magically say they are there for the sake of arguement.
You can do dungeons in GW2 and there are multiple difficulty levels.
GW2 version of raids is Orr and it will have it at launch.
So no. I see only a semantic difference at best. Everything you do while leveling in TSW is the same stuff you do at max level. By your logic, TSW has no endgame because you can do it all as you level up.
I have never played either UO or SWG (although I did play GW1) and I get the concept. Thus, it's not a difficult concept to understand, which leads me to one logical conclusion: Those who don't "understand" it, are just being obtuse. If they stopped for a moment and thought outside their "endgame = raid = gear grind" mentality, they would figure it out pretty quickly.
I mean, how many times can the same thing be repeated in one thread and the same people over and over prove they don't get it?
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Oh dear.
Another thing he's overlooking is that all the horiztonal skill progression TSW is overshadowed by the insanely heavy importance it places on gear. Thus, even though the cover of the game is based around customization, in reality it's still based off a gear grind skinner-box model. Only instead of grinding for 1 classes set of gear, you get to grind for all classes gear on 1 character. It's not unlike FFXI in that regard.
Nope nor do I personally care. TSW did not interest me at all. If i wanted a game were I had to raid for the best gear (aka the hamster wheel) I'd stick with WoW and panda's. Atm i'm not really sure if you don't understand how GW2 is trying to be a little different, or if you care. Alot of us here like GW2, and I have not seen many of us go flame other game's, but that could be because I don't check those forum's much.
I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Good
Sounds like you kinda got it!
Another way to look at it would be in thinking of Skyrim vs. Final Fantasy. In Skyrim you can rush through the game and beat it pretty quickly, if that's your goal. Or you can go back to areas you passed by and check them out, etc. You're correct, there are a lot of options, and endgame is really what you make of it. It also doesn't magically change from what you have been doing up to that point (hence anet's claim that 'the whole game is endgame').
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
at least someone understands now:)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
An excellent question.
At the same time, how much effort has been expended by folks to try and change this person's opinion when his position and basic "arguments" have remained the same throughout this 60 pages. This appears to be an agenda, not a discussion.
Sometimes these forums represent an opportunity for a sincere exchange of information or debate, where people are willing to change or modify their opinions based on new data.
Do you think that is what is happening here?
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
No offense, but how do you know it will be enough? How do you know that the level scaling and the branching events will be enough for this to become your main game and that it will last you for months or years. You have only played a limited amount for a very short period of time. There is no harm in approaching the game skeptically. I think broadly stating something that you haven't experienced as fact is a little presumptive. He wasn't bashing GW2, he was just stating a concern that is completely valid and that no one has the answer too.
pvp, and actually done well.
No. GW2 is not a world in the sense that SWG and UO were. GW2 is a game and a pretty good game, but not a world. SWG and UO were true virtual worlds in which people lived second lives. GW2 is more of a beautiful environment where people go to experience some pretty neat content.
Yeah, I can see that as well. I figured that's what they meant by that from the get go. They have their work cut out for them in that regard, as some have pointed out many of the current generation aren't going to understand such a concept in an MMORPG. They aren't exactly accustomed to making their own way in a game.
Just for clarification I was only questioning something said by Badspock earlier, wasn't really questioning the concept of end-game when it comes to GW2.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Re-read what I wrote. GW2 has a world, just like any MMO out there. It's not, however, an emulation of our world.