I am so turned away from any game that is WoWish, unless it's WoW itself.
Here are a few of the big releases of the last 8 years.
You can add Warcraft to any Released MMO after 2004, example. Star Warcraft Galaxies (NGE), Guild Warcraft, Lord of the Warcraft Online, Warcraft Online, AIONCRAFT, Age of Warcraft, RIFTCRAFT, Star Warcraft and the Old Republic and finally Guild Warcraft 2.
WoW should just remain WoW, unfortunately it's the big influence on mmo themeparks today whether the company is taking some or if not all idea's from WoW.
Lol, hilarious... but also sad. Pretty accurate though.
The fact that most WoW Clones fail hard coupled with where the genre was at the time of WoW's release has always IMHO indicated its initial success was largely the result of a perfect storm & unlikely to be duplicated.
"The issues plaguing SW:TOR werent new, just about every themepark MMO launched since World of Warcraft has been plagued by the same problems, yet developers continued to use WoWs themepark design as a foundation."
This is one of the main reasons I consider tor a failure. Yet they blame us, saying this is what we wanted, when it has been proven time and time again over the last 7 years, that this is not what we want.
You also had a line about GW2, filling the gap so to speak.
Unfortunately I don't think this is true. I hope it is, I hope I just somehow missed the underlying difference that everyone is touting .. but I think many will tire quickly of GW2 as well. Because, having a zone give you a quest is really not that different from having an NPC give you a quest.
Hopefully it will take longer to chew through the content, and the system I believe does lend itself better to replayability, especially since they have created a pretty huge world .. but I expect within 6 months there will be a fairly decent dropoff in logins. Forcing it to go F2P .. oh wait <,<
Therein lies the advantage I suppose. People will likely feel their money was well spent and be ready to buy an expansion. That is of course unless AA or WS blow us all away. /holds breath
Oh and sorry, but shame on you for not talking about repop in a thread about sandboxes =P
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Even more than just the Sandbox vs. Themepark saber rattling, people need to look at what makes a good game.
A world that the devs create and stays eternally unchanging, is the Devs World and they are letting us play there. Kind of like going to visit grandma and all the plastic covered furniture and antique china. Nice to visit maybe, but we always feel out of place.
On the other hand, a world that changes based on player actions, even if they are Dev guided actions, rapidly becomes the players world. A world they care for and grow to love.
With all their flaws and faulty design elements, SWG and Horizons for example did marvelous jobs at becoming the players worlds.
Meanwile SWTOR and Warhammer created games from popular IP's, but kept these worlds wrapped in plastic with do not touch signs up everywhere. Pretty and fun for a while, but never our home.
I have great hopes for ArcheAge and The Repopulation, and there are others that may also make me happy by being able to point and claim "We helped build this", "We helped destroy that". All in a world that feels like mine!
Personally I am looking forward to The Repopulation. Its a sandbox sci-fi MMO without classes or levels. It has open world multi-sided PvP and a strong crafting side. Improve your skills by using them.
Still in alpha but hopefully coming in 2013 to a computer near you. I am not a fan boy or a shill for the devs. Just a player looking for a good MMO.
I rather enjoy being a bit of a "shill", though I am a reasonable shill with more hope than loyalty. The Repopulation looks great on paper, but still has to prove itself. I support them because they are on the right track in my opinion, they are a great group of developers who are working hard, and the game appeals to me.
You are both wasting your time on the Repopulation. Most FFA-PVP games are going to be nothing other than a small niche game. The anonymity of the internet insures that. People will play the asshat just because they can and be anonymous about it. I like everything else about the Repopulation, just that the developers have no clue how mean players can be when they have no restrictions. If you would notice, SWG had no FFA-PVP and yet was quite successful in it's own way. FFA-PVP almost killed UO until they duped Felucca with a non pvp area.
Not to say that FFA-PVP can't be done, just that I have not seen anyone come up with a method that restricts the asshat play enough. Eve has come the closest. Some of my most fun times in UO was hunting reds so I would welcome a game that could reproduce that fun, but not all the time.
Neither a hybrid nor a sandbox needs FFA-PVP to be successful, but it can be a real plus if implemented properly.
Just look at Eve for example, they made major changes to the mining ships this week, mainly because the asshats were having a field day killing sitting duck mining ships in safer areas. Now you have choices if you want to mine in peace and ignore any asshat.
I think Kyleran said it best:
"...players really are not screaming for a sandbox or a themepark, we just want MMO's that give us something more to do besides the same tired forumula that we've had shovelled at us for about the last 8 years."
Personally I am looking forward to The Repopulation. Its a sandbox sci-fi MMO without classes or levels. It has open world multi-sided PvP and a strong crafting side. Improve your skills by using them.
Still in alpha but hopefully coming in 2013 to a computer near you. I am not a fan boy or a shill for the devs. Just a player looking for a good MMO.
I rather enjoy being a bit of a "shill", though I am a reasonable shill with more hope than loyalty. The Repopulation looks great on paper, but still has to prove itself. I support them because they are on the right track in my opinion, they are a great group of developers who are working hard, and the game appeals to me.
You are both wasting your time on the Repopulation. Most FFA-PVP games are going to be nothing other than a small niche game. The anonymity of the internet insures that. People will play the asshat just because they can and be anonymous about it. I like everything else about the Repopulation, just that the developers have no clue how mean players can be when they have no restrictions. If you would notice, SWG had no FFA-PVP and yet was quite successful in it's own way. FFA-PVP almost killed UO until they duped Felucca with a non pvp area.
Not to say that FFA-PVP can't be done, just that I have not seen anyone come up with a method that restricts the asshat play enough. Eve has come the closest. Some of my most fun times in UO was hunting reds so I would welcome a game that could reproduce that fun, but not all the time.
Neither a hybrid nor a sandbox needs FFA-PVP to be successful, but it can be a real plus if implemented properly.
Just look at Eve for example, they made major changes to the mining ships this week, mainly because the asshats were having a field day killing sitting duck mining ships in safer areas. Now you have choices if you want to mine in peace and ignore any asshat.
I think Kyleran said it best:
"...players really are not screaming for a sandbox or a themepark, we just want MMO's that give us something more to do besides the same tired forumula that we've had shovelled at us for about the last 8 years."
Best read this first before stating 'The Repopulation' is only a FFA-PvP. The game will support 2 styles to get your information straight.
Originally posted by jusomdude I didn't know The Repopulation was gonna be FFA-PvP. If so it's an automatic write off.
Here you go buddy, the right information directly from their website. If you remember SWG, it's pretty much the same style of PVP.
PVP - The Repopulation
As mentioned previously we plan to support two rule sets in The Repopulation. The normal rule set in the Repopulation encourages PvP but does not force it. Where the hardcore server will focus on a more Free For All style. We’ll focus most of the explanation in this section on the normal rule set.
All players will begin their adventure as an Inactive member of the OWON or FPR military. Being inactive means that they will not be able to attack or be attacked by other players in protected areas. They will be subject to attack, and able to attack opposing players when they enter into contested areas, however. Players can elect to join the Active Military at any time. Active Military can be attack or be attacked other Active Military members anywhere in the world. They can not attack Inactive Military in the protected areas, however. Guards will aid friendly players in both protected and unprotected areas.
A common question by players is what will be protected and what will not? Areas near your starting cities are fully protected. OWON and FPR civilizations are located quite far from one another. The middle areas between the two are largely unprotected, with the exception of Rogue Nation cities. You can find the full complement of tiers and difficulty levels in both protected and unprotected regions. If a player wished to completely avoid PvP they would be able to. That having been said, we want to encourage players to participate in the PvP aspects of the game. There is very little penalty for doing so, and it can be a rewarding experience.
Nations can build cities and cities can be sieged and conquered. It is an open world experience with objectives created through engagements. Players will be automatically rewarded for their participation. You gain military rank through your participation, which can open up new rewards and abilities.
Originally posted by jusomdude Well I don't want to completely avoid PvP, I just want to choose when I want to participate.
I gotcha.
I remember the days all to well when I would PvP in SWG which we called a 'TEF' Temporary Enemy Flag if you saw a fellow Imp or Reb being attacked, you could just jump right on it. Throw a heal his or her way and now you are PvP enabled.
I loved the article: your opinion was concise and to the point. And I do agree with your opinion that sandbox mmo's are on their seing back into fashion, just maybe one's a bit more friendly than the love of my gaming life, EVE online.
It's not even sandbox mmo's specifically, though. If you are going to make a half-hearted attempt at making an actual RPG styled mmo, like SWTOR, you can't make it something that is to an rpg what canned spam is to ground beef. SWTOR wasn't terrible, but it seemed too contrived, and it obviously tried too hard to be a good game.
Would a sandbox Star Wars mmo survive today? I think so, as long as the developers did the game because they love gaming and Star Wars, and not because some d-bag publisher sees $$$. The thing is, would indie developers gain enough capital support to make the game? If CCP licensed their game engine, which is pretty awesome in its own right, that would take care of a ton of dev costs right there. And you would have a Star Wars game that, if nothing else, was awesome to look at, which I can't really say about SWTOR, my computer has terrible graphics. Creating the back-drop would be easy: just start a century or so after the fall of the Empire- let the people be the story.
And from what I can see, the main gripe with people about the theme park thing is endgame. I really don't care about endgame, I like gaming for the story. But, with EVE, there really is no endgame. You have the Alliance Tournement, but thats strategy and piloting, not endgame. So, how would you fill the endgame void with a sandbox?
I think you have to look at why WOW succeeded and why other games that tried to out- wow WoW failed.
To me WOW succeeded primarily because they took the painful parts of the game out and made it fun. the long tedious grinds and all that but they kept one thing from the old games, progressions, always something to do, always another set of gear to obtain, without feeling like we are grinding all the time like we did back in UO, EQ, AC, etc. WoW managed to walk that fine line between making a game too hardcore and making a game too easy.
All other games swtor in particular failed in at least one aspect imo. They made the endgame too easy or non existent, swtor was a good game, not bad at all, but with the fact in one week you could get completely geared up for raids and one week of raiding you would get most of your gear, 4 weeks of raiding and your maxed out, what do we do now. Endgame was boring.
Im all for a sandbox world we can live in as long as they arent full of nothing but monster grinds over and over and over. i got tired of that10 years ago also. I want a virtual world, not a boring landscape filled with monsters and I have to go find my own content. Make the world feel alive and the players will come, give us things to do in the world and the players will come. MMOs were designed to be played for years, but developers are designing them to be played for months.
Gw2 Is not gonna be the second coming of video games, it is gonna sell alot of boxes and dissapoint most of the people that buy it, but is b2p not p2p so at least people wont feel so ripped off, i mean most people nowadays only expect 10 hours out of a 50 dollar title, about you average call of duty content so if they get one or two days out of they will be happy.
i have played games since the UO first launch, and never played one after all that i belive surpases UO ambition and simplicity, all the next gen games that followed UO lack the spirit UO had, but still i have to admit UO could use some of the new ideas. here is my list of the requirementes/features a dream/succeful MMO should have
PVP
Active PVP no more targeting
Open PVP (never subestimate the trilling of the death/adventure)
No armor type or class restriction (yes mages can use plate if they want, just aply mobility penality, more time to cast high end spells)
Big mana and health pools so pvp cant be decided in seconds even if out numbered
in battle weapon/armor swap and revive
destroyable in fight armors (blunt weapons)
mounted pvp and means to unmount enemy (traps, special weapons)
Guarded Zones (auto kill for pks in this zones)
For hire companions (with decent to elite skills combat skills, i belive 5 would be a good top limit)
Stats Based combat (yo gain stats with aging and type of work and profesions)
Stats limit improves with age
Gears with no Stat improvement, just durability, improved def, less weight, and some special capabilitis
Full loot death (you loose all when you dies)
PVE
Active PVE no more targeting
Mobs can loot and if we are in dungeons mode, mobs can kill and save the loot to a treasure of course guarded by powerfull bosses ;d (if we can do why they dont), this way a dificult to kill dungeon boss will guarantee a very large treasure loot ,treasures should be big enough that cant be carried in once by the killling party/player
Mobs can wear/use player loot weapons and armor (and improve with them like players)
dungeons and open world have mobs enemy factions in constant battle so they can loot each other and get they treasures grow over time
since a mob faction can get loot its logical that over time if they get enought loot they can improve all faction weapons and armors and overall power, even they can improve dungeon defences and traps
dungeon traps can be put by owner mobs in random locations (no more memorized dungeons)
no more 1 hit kill, well only if your a top level and you atack chickens in town maybe
Full mosnter loot (you get all the monster has, plus the items your skills can provide, like skining, bones , teeth collection, etc)
if the monster is big enough you can divide the loot or just you cant carry it all, like if you kill a 10 sizes mamoth, then you carve it and get like 500 stakes, 200 hides, 50 teeth, 80 bones but you cant carry them all for the weight, and of course you cant solo it , well you can ,but with a lot of time if your skilled enough. and yeah you can skin that damn pks and hang their heads over a pickaxe in you house
heard and family protecion by the animals, baby (easy kills, less loot) are in the midle of the heard or can call full featured defensors of the same race
HOW TO GET RESOURCES
skills like mining/wood/stone should work in the vein system, that way valuable veins will be posible battle points for mobs and/or players
anything should be posible to collect from butterfys/insects to big monuments with the apropiate tools and transportation means
planting/farming system for food/wood/reagents/flowers
pet systems to get wool/meat/egs and whatever its needed
vegetables/wild animals should recover over long times, to make players more aware of the renovable systems like planting/pets to get theis resources
CRAFTING
no limit o very high limit of profesion you can have in one char, at least 12 of a pool of 36, or a 1/3 ratio
full craftable in game items (with creator name if they are special)
craftable items with 3 to 5 states of quality (diferent stats)
ALL items can be smelted/disasembled/reused
items CANT be enhanced via +1+2+3+4+5 system, insted of that items get the socketed system
player based market (city stores can be leased)
For hire vendors
player based housing (predesing and design, a good time to see an architect profesion)
for hire craftman, you can hire one to work for you if you provide enought resorces, he can have top craft skills but they take a lot of time to make the items, player craft should be less time consuming
OTHE GAME MECHANINCS
day/night/season/year mechanic, so mobs actual spawn and location can change , by example a vampire faction can be found in day time in a dungeon, but in night time they can venture outside it
faction controlled zones, to produce resources for the owner, even mobs factions can do this so they can improve their weapons and increase they treasure chests
action crating, you can trap chest with posion bombs, even you can trap a simple bag with explosives, this aplies to traps/arrows/bombs (finally alchemy is functional)
enviroment manipulation, you can plant trees in your bakyard so mobs/players cant get easy into them, same as puting trap holes (with spears) in your main entrance
tamable and ridable all mobs in the game, by the meanings of taming or growing from the eggs
pet system
this entire post can sound crazy but its my dream MMO, maybe you can share yours or improve mine
Again people who writes these type of article miss the big point always, why MMO's fail? One simple explanation:
1-The developers, GMs and Moderators do NOT respect the player base. There is a big disconnect between the players and the devs, very seldom you see any dev posting in a forum or bothering to answer questions by the players
2- Constant nerfing
3- In game GMs/moderators who think they are gods
4- Forum moderators who think they are gods
5- Lack of information or explanation why changes are made in game.
Until the devs stop thinking like they know everything and they start listening to the player base they are going to keep destroying the games.
Been saying it all along. Hybrids are the wave of the future. We can't go back to the old style of sandbox and we can't continue with the current themepark style, so we need to find that middle ground and evolve from there, which we are in games like GW2, ArcheAge and Wildstar as well as others in the pipeline for the next few years.
agreed.. I hope that hybrids are the wave fo the future, but we'll see.. After playing GW2 in the last beta weekend, it is definately in the direction I like to see gaming go.. ArcheAge is very appealing as well.. and from what I heard about Wildstar, another opportunity.. I think more and more of us are tired of the linear quest ride that ends with a raiding hamster wheel.. I want diversity and variety.. and honestly.. I hope the journey to max level takes longer..
Again people who writes these type of article miss the big point always, why MMO's fail? One simple explanation:
1-The developers, GMs and Moderators do NOT respect the player base. There is a big disconnect between the players and the devs, very seldom you see any dev posting in a forum or bothering to answer questions by the players
2- Constant nerfing
3- In game GMs/moderators who think they are gods
4- Forum moderators who think they are gods
5- Lack of information or explanation why changes are made in game.
Until the devs stop thinking like they know everything and they start listening to the player base they are going to keep destroying the games.
Well there's about a million and one things players disagree on, so how do you choose which ones to listen to?
Originally posted by jusomdude I didn't know The Repopulation was gonna be FFA-PvP. If so it's an automatic write off.
Here you go buddy, the right information directly from their website. If you remember SWG, it's pretty much the same style of PVP.
PVP - The Repopulation
As mentioned previously we plan to support two rule sets in The Repopulation. The normal rule set in the Repopulation encourages PvP but does not force it. Where the hardcore server will focus on a more Free For All style. We’ll focus most of the explanation in this section on the normal rule set.
All players will begin their adventure as an Inactive member of the OWON or FPR military. Being inactive means that they will not be able to attack or be attacked by other players in protected areas. They will be subject to attack, and able to attack opposing players when they enter into contested areas, however. Players can elect to join the Active Military at any time. Active Military can be attack or be attacked other Active Military members anywhere in the world. They can not attack Inactive Military in the protected areas, however. Guards will aid friendly players in both protected and unprotected areas.
A common question by players is what will be protected and what will not? Areas near your starting cities are fully protected. OWON and FPR civilizations are located quite far from one another. The middle areas between the two are largely unprotected, with the exception of Rogue Nation cities. You can find the full complement of tiers and difficulty levels in both protected and unprotected regions. If a player wished to completely avoid PvP they would be able to. That having been said, we want to encourage players to participate in the PvP aspects of the game. There is very little penalty for doing so, and it can be a rewarding experience.
Nations can build cities and cities can be sieged and conquered. It is an open world experience with objectives created through engagements. Players will be automatically rewarded for their participation. You gain military rank through your participation, which can open up new rewards and abilities.
The point being all the good stuff is in the contested areas. Even crafters need things from those areas. So you either have to pvp or spend a lot to get those items. It always ends up in games like this that a big guild will control specific resources, hence you will be stuck buying at their prices. Not my idea of a very good game. You contention that pvp is optional does not meet my definition of optional.
The point being all the good stuff is in the contested areas. Even crafters need things from those areas. So you either have to pvp or spend a lot to get those items. It always ends up in games like this that a big guild will control specific resources, hence you will be stuck buying at their prices. Not my idea of a very good game. You contention that pvp is optional does not meet my definition of optional.
And those guys out in the area you are after will need items and base materials from you. Thats how it works in a Sandbox game. If they want to make money they will price it reasonably. If they are begging to be undercut they will be.
At first while the market is being seeded what you say may be true but the more gathering that takes place the less chance that this kind of thing occurs. In EvE there are people who craft and don't PVP in the most dangerous areas and those people are wildly useful to us and they make an insane amount money doing it and if they get into trouble we have their back.
The point being all the good stuff is in the contested areas. Even crafters need things from those areas. So you either have to pvp or spend a lot to get those items. It always ends up in games like this that a big guild will control specific resources, hence you will be stuck buying at their prices. Not my idea of a very good game. You contention that pvp is optional does not meet my definition of optional.
So you're saying because if you want certain things you will have to trade with pvper/clans or generally people who are willing to go into contested areas, somehow pvp is forced on you? I guess that means crafting is forced on everyone to because they have to deal with crafters for items, it's a forced crafting game?
It may not be your idea of a very good game but the set up makes perfect sense for a sandbox game.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I remember the days all to well when I would PvP in SWG which we called a 'TEF' Temporary Enemy Flag if you saw a fellow Imp or Reb being attacked, you could just jump right on it. Throw a heal his or her way and now you are PvP enabled.
Yes I remember. The system effectively encouraged people to stand around safe watching a handful fight until they thought they had enough to gank and then they bravely all "jump in" before scrabbling away in order to wait to go non SF again before the other side could bring in numbers.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The reason why sandboxes are not as popular is, that the players are not interested in long-term games. Players want instant rewards usually and not wait for the day they can bring in the crop they've worked for before.
Developers have no vision and that's why most sandboxes don't do very well. Look at EvE Online and see what a sandbox can be, if the devs have a vision.
1. The article mentions SWTOR and then a common weakness of "Themeparks" not being able to keep up with content demands of a ravonous playerbase. SWTOR had plenty of content, I seriously doubt most people that quit consumed all of it. Thier problem wasn't a lack of content. It was designing a world that is better visited than lived in. There is nothing wrong with this and it is absolutly fun if players approach it this way. The sub fee doesn't fit with this type of game which is why f2p is a good choice for them.
2. If a sandbox means designing a world that is to be "lived in" I am not sure that will ever be anything more than niche. It's a time requirement issue. The pool of gamers that have 80 hours a week to throw at a game is much much smaller than the pool of gamers that have 20 or 10.
3. If sandbox means making an impact on the world Mindcraft style then yes, absolutly yes this is the next iteration of the genre. If it means fresh bleeding edge always different algorythmicly generated content that we can do once and never agian, then yes of course yes.
4. If it means FFA Full loot PvP, then no. If it means time commitments that likes of which olympic training doesn't even require, then of course no. If it means frustration so prevasive that you need to repeat the same activity 1000 times to be successful even once, then no. If it means a world so open ended that the only things to do is to grind mobs and emote going to bathroom, then hell no.
1. I agree, the game is fun to play as a sort of online co-op game, it just doesn't feel MMORPG to me as there are to many restrictions and hardly any true freedom, it's all combat oriented, graphics are somewhat dated, yet certain skylines are breathtaken yet very much painted as no way to reach certain views. Yet I am enjoying it as a game and just put in the mind set of it just being a co-op online combat game which I feel suits the game much more then calling it a MMORPG.
2. I agree on your first sentence about a world to be lived in, put personaly and how I play I have to disagree with the rest in the pointed 2 part. I say personaly as I am a patient gamer when it comes to MMORPG, there is absolutely nothing that I should rush into, for competitive gameplay I already play plenty of other genre's, apart from singleplayer RPG MMORPG's come in second as the most relaxing type of casual game. While I might play it in what I consider to be pretty hardcore, cause to me hardcore has many layers. In short I take my time to become the best but the only researche I take on my professions/skills/ability's can only come from within the game and MMORPG's use to make that possible, mainly because the more sandbox type of games gave you allot of freedom.
Commonly speaking I do agree cause I do know the majority for some reason think that being FIRST truly means something in a MMORPG today, it use to mean allot more as it meant you had gone thru so much content AND > GRIND that being first really meant something. Today's games make it so easy to cap lvl that you don't even have to do all content to be "first".
3. Nothing more to add then TOTALLY agree!
4. Mixed agree and disagree. I don't feel in a MMORPG 1 player should be able to do everything. These day's I can craft/heal/combat, I know the masses want this as they don't want to depent to much on others. Things should be hard to accomplisch. Wanna be a crafter then simply be prepared to make 10000xobject X to become better, don't want to do that, great in a sandbox game you got choice, the option to not do it, instead choose something you do like. Okay combat, well you want to wield that Great Sword of Übberness, then be prepared to make ALLOT of swings with different swords before you are able to wield that Great Sword of Übberness.
You might not like this and I am sure it's pretty niche, but it is the way I thought this genre involved more into and by evolving I do not mean become more and more just online combat games. But just more polished, less buggs, great graphics, yet certain themepark elements and also FFA Full Loot aslong it's a option players are able to controle as Sandbox games are about choice or atleast SHOULD be, nothing should be forced, but everything should feel natural.
Well written article and I can agree with the major points, that SWG helped put nails in the sandbox coffin...
I think you missed the point. SWG was the first to really offer sandbox, and the developers put the nails in the games coffin by changing that. SWG was the first major mmo that had player based weapons, armor, housing, buildings, equipment etc. etc. The game allowed players to decide what type of character they were going to be with a mixed class point delegation system. You could change allegances, change class build, build player cities, free to roam anywhere in any zone including space. (although this came after the great ruining and I mean the first ruining of the game not NGE) I have not touched on several of the games better points but in no means did SWG put the nail in the sand box's coffin.
SWG at launch and for a few months was the essence of sand box and sadly what was not touched on, and I have never seen touched, was its utter failure to launch. My friends and I had been waiting for its launch since we saw its announcement at E3 98 or 99. (can't remember which) They never had a commercial, game magazine ad, announcement releases, websites, announced betas, etc. When it came out none of us ever knew. I chanced upon it one Friday evening after work, and had to call 20+ people to let them know. It just showed up to the store unannounced. After a couple of months playing I ran into gamers that had no idea it even existed. So essentially the game was killed before it ever launched.(secretly)
By no means was it the nails, at one point it was a great game, just never given a proper chance. And some other poster stated that it was bleeding subs before NGE, duh like I stated previously, the game was ruined when they did the Combat Upgrade. CU was the answer to all the whiney lazy players that flood our games today. Pistoleers who only had to do one set of bars were as powerful as classes that had to do three full masteries.
Turkish is saying something I've been saying for years. SOE/LA never - NEVER - formally advertised SWG. Perhaps a snippet commercial LONG ago, somewhere that was forgotten, but much less than the way games are advertised these days (superhype).
Many talks between friends in-game were had on how we could make our own commercials or get the word out ourselves. This was a couple years before youtube. Now you see youtube movies about SWG everywhere. SWG PvP, SWG space battles, SWG crafting/decorating, SWGLetsPlay tutorials, SWG closure farewells.
Yes, the original game, the pre-CU game, the Raph Koster designed game that had a vision for what was a massive real life immersion in the video realm... that game made you wonder, made you design, made you THINK, made you LIVE the game. Sometimes to its own detriment - terrain negotiation, item decay, battle fatigue.
The CU and NGE were the WoW-population-and-subscription-chasing-abominations, I can agree to that in their inceptions/implementations, but post-NGE (SWG post 2009) was by far the better game all around. Combat was fairly balanced, crafting was still FAR superior to anything out there even now, and the community and economy that the community created was second to none.
All in all it was the advertising. WoW never stopped advertising, even after they reached 2mil, 3mil, 5mil subs, the advertising still came on strong. If it wasn't Mr. T telling you he was a night-elf-mohawk, it was Chuck Norris and his battle cat puttin' the smack-down on some Orcs. Those commercials ran on numerous channels, multiple times, day and night. THAT is was made WoW a household name. Just because it was a spin-off of Blizzard's Warcraft, only meant that the minor (or more "secret") gaming population knew about it, otherwise the game meant nothing to the population that plays/knows about it now. It was pure advertising and being in the right place at the right time.
So you (we - my friends and I in-game) would have thought that during all that time, with all of the Star Wars movies on Spike TV being re-run month after month, year after year, they would have thrown out at least one simple ad for SWG to say "Hey, we're here and still going strong!" wouldn't have broke the bank, but actually brought in new subs... instead they took the beating like a boss, and faded away due to sneaky management and underhanded attorneys and CEOs after a pipe-dream-payday.
I'm sorry but i couldn't disgree more. The advertising certainly helped, but it wasn't the major factor. What made WOW able to acheive those levels of subs was by opening up the MMO genre to a broader market of gamers. Prior to wow there were somewhere between 1.2 and 1.8 million MMO players between UO, EQ, and AO, DAOC came in and added a few as well. WOW came out and made the game accessible. They made sure that the graphics weren't so intense so it would run on a broad range of computers. They dumbed everything down so it was easy to see quests and such, easy to do, easy to play, and far quicker to get through than previous MMO's. Because of this it attracted a crapton of new players. The advertising didnt start until well after the game had 3+ million subs.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
Lol, hilarious... but also sad. Pretty accurate though.
"The issues plaguing SW:TOR werent new, just about every themepark MMO launched since World of Warcraft has been plagued by the same problems, yet developers continued to use WoWs themepark design as a foundation."
This is one of the main reasons I consider tor a failure. Yet they blame us, saying this is what we wanted, when it has been proven time and time again over the last 7 years, that this is not what we want.
You also had a line about GW2, filling the gap so to speak.
Unfortunately I don't think this is true. I hope it is, I hope I just somehow missed the underlying difference that everyone is touting .. but I think many will tire quickly of GW2 as well. Because, having a zone give you a quest is really not that different from having an NPC give you a quest.
Hopefully it will take longer to chew through the content, and the system I believe does lend itself better to replayability, especially since they have created a pretty huge world .. but I expect within 6 months there will be a fairly decent dropoff in logins. Forcing it to go F2P .. oh wait <,<
Therein lies the advantage I suppose. People will likely feel their money was well spent and be ready to buy an expansion. That is of course unless AA or WS blow us all away. /holds breath
Oh and sorry, but shame on you for not talking about repop in a thread about sandboxes =P
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Even more than just the Sandbox vs. Themepark saber rattling, people need to look at what makes a good game.
A world that the devs create and stays eternally unchanging, is the Devs World and they are letting us play there. Kind of like going to visit grandma and all the plastic covered furniture and antique china. Nice to visit maybe, but we always feel out of place.
On the other hand, a world that changes based on player actions, even if they are Dev guided actions, rapidly becomes the players world. A world they care for and grow to love.
With all their flaws and faulty design elements, SWG and Horizons for example did marvelous jobs at becoming the players worlds.
Meanwile SWTOR and Warhammer created games from popular IP's, but kept these worlds wrapped in plastic with do not touch signs up everywhere. Pretty and fun for a while, but never our home.
I have great hopes for ArcheAge and The Repopulation, and there are others that may also make me happy by being able to point and claim "We helped build this", "We helped destroy that". All in a world that feels like mine!
You are both wasting your time on the Repopulation. Most FFA-PVP games are going to be nothing other than a small niche game. The anonymity of the internet insures that. People will play the asshat just because they can and be anonymous about it. I like everything else about the Repopulation, just that the developers have no clue how mean players can be when they have no restrictions. If you would notice, SWG had no FFA-PVP and yet was quite successful in it's own way. FFA-PVP almost killed UO until they duped Felucca with a non pvp area.
Not to say that FFA-PVP can't be done, just that I have not seen anyone come up with a method that restricts the asshat play enough. Eve has come the closest. Some of my most fun times in UO was hunting reds so I would welcome a game that could reproduce that fun, but not all the time.
Neither a hybrid nor a sandbox needs FFA-PVP to be successful, but it can be a real plus if implemented properly.
Just look at Eve for example, they made major changes to the mining ships this week, mainly because the asshats were having a field day killing sitting duck mining ships in safer areas. Now you have choices if you want to mine in peace and ignore any asshat.
I think Kyleran said it best:
"...players really are not screaming for a sandbox or a themepark, we just want MMO's that give us something more to do besides the same tired forumula that we've had shovelled at us for about the last 8 years."
Best read this first before stating 'The Repopulation' is only a FFA-PvP. The game will support 2 styles to get your information straight.
http://www.therepopulation.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=234&Itemid=474
Here you go buddy, the right information directly from their website. If you remember SWG, it's pretty much the same style of PVP.
PVP - The Repopulation
As mentioned previously we plan to support two rule sets in The Repopulation. The normal rule set in the Repopulation encourages PvP but does not force it. Where the hardcore server will focus on a more Free For All style. We’ll focus most of the explanation in this section on the normal rule set.
All players will begin their adventure as an Inactive member of the OWON or FPR military. Being inactive means that they will not be able to attack or be attacked by other players in protected areas. They will be subject to attack, and able to attack opposing players when they enter into contested areas, however. Players can elect to join the Active Military at any time. Active Military can be attack or be attacked other Active Military members anywhere in the world. They can not attack Inactive Military in the protected areas, however. Guards will aid friendly players in both protected and unprotected areas.
A common question by players is what will be protected and what will not? Areas near your starting cities are fully protected. OWON and FPR civilizations are located quite far from one another. The middle areas between the two are largely unprotected, with the exception of Rogue Nation cities. You can find the full complement of tiers and difficulty levels in both protected and unprotected regions. If a player wished to completely avoid PvP they would be able to. That having been said, we want to encourage players to participate in the PvP aspects of the game. There is very little penalty for doing so, and it can be a rewarding experience.
Nations can build cities and cities can be sieged and conquered. It is an open world experience with objectives created through engagements. Players will be automatically rewarded for their participation. You gain military rank through your participation, which can open up new rewards and abilities.
I gotcha.
I remember the days all to well when I would PvP in SWG which we called a 'TEF' Temporary Enemy Flag if you saw a fellow Imp or Reb being attacked, you could just jump right on it. Throw a heal his or her way and now you are PvP enabled.
Yeah I played SWG too, and it had a good system.
Are there better resources to gain in no mans land?
I loved the article: your opinion was concise and to the point. And I do agree with your opinion that sandbox mmo's are on their seing back into fashion, just maybe one's a bit more friendly than the love of my gaming life, EVE online.
It's not even sandbox mmo's specifically, though. If you are going to make a half-hearted attempt at making an actual RPG styled mmo, like SWTOR, you can't make it something that is to an rpg what canned spam is to ground beef. SWTOR wasn't terrible, but it seemed too contrived, and it obviously tried too hard to be a good game.
Would a sandbox Star Wars mmo survive today? I think so, as long as the developers did the game because they love gaming and Star Wars, and not because some d-bag publisher sees $$$. The thing is, would indie developers gain enough capital support to make the game? If CCP licensed their game engine, which is pretty awesome in its own right, that would take care of a ton of dev costs right there. And you would have a Star Wars game that, if nothing else, was awesome to look at, which I can't really say about SWTOR, my computer has terrible graphics. Creating the back-drop would be easy: just start a century or so after the fall of the Empire- let the people be the story.
And from what I can see, the main gripe with people about the theme park thing is endgame. I really don't care about endgame, I like gaming for the story. But, with EVE, there really is no endgame. You have the Alliance Tournement, but thats strategy and piloting, not endgame. So, how would you fill the endgame void with a sandbox?
Anything new here? Hmmm... Nope. o/
I think you have to look at why WOW succeeded and why other games that tried to out- wow WoW failed.
To me WOW succeeded primarily because they took the painful parts of the game out and made it fun. the long tedious grinds and all that but they kept one thing from the old games, progressions, always something to do, always another set of gear to obtain, without feeling like we are grinding all the time like we did back in UO, EQ, AC, etc. WoW managed to walk that fine line between making a game too hardcore and making a game too easy.
All other games swtor in particular failed in at least one aspect imo. They made the endgame too easy or non existent, swtor was a good game, not bad at all, but with the fact in one week you could get completely geared up for raids and one week of raiding you would get most of your gear, 4 weeks of raiding and your maxed out, what do we do now. Endgame was boring.
Im all for a sandbox world we can live in as long as they arent full of nothing but monster grinds over and over and over. i got tired of that10 years ago also. I want a virtual world, not a boring landscape filled with monsters and I have to go find my own content. Make the world feel alive and the players will come, give us things to do in the world and the players will come. MMOs were designed to be played for years, but developers are designing them to be played for months.
Gw2 Is not gonna be the second coming of video games, it is gonna sell alot of boxes and dissapoint most of the people that buy it, but is b2p not p2p so at least people wont feel so ripped off, i mean most people nowadays only expect 10 hours out of a 50 dollar title, about you average call of duty content so if they get one or two days out of they will be happy.
i have played games since the UO first launch, and never played one after all that i belive surpases UO ambition and simplicity, all the next gen games that followed UO lack the spirit UO had, but still i have to admit UO could use some of the new ideas. here is my list of the requirementes/features a dream/succeful MMO should have
PVP
Again people who writes these type of article miss the big point always, why MMO's fail? One simple explanation:
1-The developers, GMs and Moderators do NOT respect the player base. There is a big disconnect between the players and the devs, very seldom you see any dev posting in a forum or bothering to answer questions by the players
2- Constant nerfing
3- In game GMs/moderators who think they are gods
4- Forum moderators who think they are gods
5- Lack of information or explanation why changes are made in game.
Until the devs stop thinking like they know everything and they start listening to the player base they are going to keep destroying the games.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
agreed.. I hope that hybrids are the wave fo the future, but we'll see.. After playing GW2 in the last beta weekend, it is definately in the direction I like to see gaming go.. ArcheAge is very appealing as well.. and from what I heard about Wildstar, another opportunity.. I think more and more of us are tired of the linear quest ride that ends with a raiding hamster wheel.. I want diversity and variety.. and honestly.. I hope the journey to max level takes longer..
Well there's about a million and one things players disagree on, so how do you choose which ones to listen to?
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
The point being all the good stuff is in the contested areas. Even crafters need things from those areas. So you either have to pvp or spend a lot to get those items. It always ends up in games like this that a big guild will control specific resources, hence you will be stuck buying at their prices. Not my idea of a very good game. You contention that pvp is optional does not meet my definition of optional.
The point being all the good stuff is in the contested areas. Even crafters need things from those areas. So you either have to pvp or spend a lot to get those items. It always ends up in games like this that a big guild will control specific resources, hence you will be stuck buying at their prices. Not my idea of a very good game. You contention that pvp is optional does not meet my definition of optional.
And those guys out in the area you are after will need items and base materials from you. Thats how it works in a Sandbox game. If they want to make money they will price it reasonably. If they are begging to be undercut they will be.
At first while the market is being seeded what you say may be true but the more gathering that takes place the less chance that this kind of thing occurs. In EvE there are people who craft and don't PVP in the most dangerous areas and those people are wildly useful to us and they make an insane amount money doing it and if they get into trouble we have their back.
So you're saying because if you want certain things you will have to trade with pvper/clans or generally people who are willing to go into contested areas, somehow pvp is forced on you? I guess that means crafting is forced on everyone to because they have to deal with crafters for items, it's a forced crafting game?
It may not be your idea of a very good game but the set up makes perfect sense for a sandbox game.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Yes I remember. The system effectively encouraged people to stand around safe watching a handful fight until they thought they had enough to gank and then they bravely all "jump in" before scrabbling away in order to wait to go non SF again before the other side could bring in numbers.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The reason why sandboxes are not as popular is, that the players are not interested in long-term games. Players want instant rewards usually and not wait for the day they can bring in the crop they've worked for before.
Developers have no vision and that's why most sandboxes don't do very well. Look at EvE Online and see what a sandbox can be, if the devs have a vision.
1. I agree, the game is fun to play as a sort of online co-op game, it just doesn't feel MMORPG to me as there are to many restrictions and hardly any true freedom, it's all combat oriented, graphics are somewhat dated, yet certain skylines are breathtaken yet very much painted as no way to reach certain views. Yet I am enjoying it as a game and just put in the mind set of it just being a co-op online combat game which I feel suits the game much more then calling it a MMORPG.
2. I agree on your first sentence about a world to be lived in, put personaly and how I play I have to disagree with the rest in the pointed 2 part. I say personaly as I am a patient gamer when it comes to MMORPG, there is absolutely nothing that I should rush into, for competitive gameplay I already play plenty of other genre's, apart from singleplayer RPG MMORPG's come in second as the most relaxing type of casual game. While I might play it in what I consider to be pretty hardcore, cause to me hardcore has many layers. In short I take my time to become the best but the only researche I take on my professions/skills/ability's can only come from within the game and MMORPG's use to make that possible, mainly because the more sandbox type of games gave you allot of freedom.
Commonly speaking I do agree cause I do know the majority for some reason think that being FIRST truly means something in a MMORPG today, it use to mean allot more as it meant you had gone thru so much content AND > GRIND that being first really meant something. Today's games make it so easy to cap lvl that you don't even have to do all content to be "first".
3. Nothing more to add then TOTALLY agree!
4. Mixed agree and disagree. I don't feel in a MMORPG 1 player should be able to do everything. These day's I can craft/heal/combat, I know the masses want this as they don't want to depent to much on others. Things should be hard to accomplisch. Wanna be a crafter then simply be prepared to make 10000xobject X to become better, don't want to do that, great in a sandbox game you got choice, the option to not do it, instead choose something you do like. Okay combat, well you want to wield that Great Sword of Übberness, then be prepared to make ALLOT of swings with different swords before you are able to wield that Great Sword of Übberness.
You might not like this and I am sure it's pretty niche, but it is the way I thought this genre involved more into and by evolving I do not mean become more and more just online combat games. But just more polished, less buggs, great graphics, yet certain themepark elements and also FFA Full Loot aslong it's a option players are able to controle as Sandbox games are about choice or atleast SHOULD be, nothing should be forced, but everything should feel natural.
I'm sorry but i couldn't disgree more. The advertising certainly helped, but it wasn't the major factor. What made WOW able to acheive those levels of subs was by opening up the MMO genre to a broader market of gamers. Prior to wow there were somewhere between 1.2 and 1.8 million MMO players between UO, EQ, and AO, DAOC came in and added a few as well. WOW came out and made the game accessible. They made sure that the graphics weren't so intense so it would run on a broad range of computers. They dumbed everything down so it was easy to see quests and such, easy to do, easy to play, and far quicker to get through than previous MMO's. Because of this it attracted a crapton of new players. The advertising didnt start until well after the game had 3+ million subs.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche