What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?
I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.
Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.
As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.
But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.
This goes for all games.
It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.
GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.
Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.
Win in EU3? Pray-tell! What is the "winning" condition in EU3?
Being a sandbox strategy game, that's very much subject to point of view. It would depend on the player and his strategic ambitions. One might argue that finishing the game is a victory in itself.
guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is
I'm not saying it doesn't have power progression. I'm saying it has very limited power progression AT LEVEL CAP.
how so? because it really isn't lmited at all you have many sets of differn't powered gear at 80, you also have runes to further customize all the gear all depending on skill setup and how you want to build your character.
It's extremely limited compared to the traditional themepark gear model. You can hype up what's there if you wish - but we all know that the goal of ArenaNet is to have equal gear-power for everyone very soon after cap.
Before you forget, I'm not advocating that themepark model - just pointing out where it provides longterm motivation.
Where GW2 may have less power progression at level cap (= no gear trendmill), it has more competitive progression than others.
What seems to be the best thing to do at levcap is to search for a high rank in pvp, high rank in pve (exploration mode dungeons), and when all of these has ended, just start a fresh new class (and thanks to ANet, they feel different enough not for it to be a chore).
I'm not talking about PvP.
But I see that every time this debate is started - it goes in the exact same circle over and over.
Just repeat content indefinitely - without motivation beyond doing it for "fun".
Ok, I think I'll give it up and just let the game speak for itself. Hope I'm wrong, actually
guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is
I'm not saying it doesn't have power progression. I'm saying it has very limited power progression AT LEVEL CAP.
how so? because it really isn't lmited at all you have many sets of differn't powered gear at 80, you also have runes to further customize all the gear all depending on skill setup and how you want to build your character.
It's extremely limited compared to the traditional themepark gear model. You can hype up what's there if you wish - but we all know that the goal of ArenaNet is to have equal gear-power for everyone very soon after cap.
Before you forget, I'm not advocating that themepark model - just pointing out where it provides longterm motivation.
Why is it limited? Traditionally you have a one armor set that gets progressively more and more powerful.
Doing raids in order, must finish raid1 to go to raid2 etc, getting the armor sets in order. How many are those sets?
In GW2 you can get far easier the top armor/weapon set and then you have to get perfect stat weapons and more specialized runes (the armor sets in GW2) for lots of different builds. Having the best Fire Elementalist Runes/Armor/Weapon doesn't mean much. Having the best Elementalist gear for all elements/situations is what a "max character" will be like. And that will take a lot of time, comparable to a raid progression perhaps, we will see. The difference is that nobody is forcing you to do it, you can stay with one "perfect" build if you want, and you can progress on your own doing a vast variety of activities, instead of farming a single raid until you get your set, then moving to the next raid rinse repeat until you reach the highest tier.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is
I'm not saying it doesn't have power progression. I'm saying it has very limited power progression AT LEVEL CAP.
how so? because it really isn't lmited at all you have many sets of differn't powered gear at 80, you also have runes to further customize all the gear all depending on skill setup and how you want to build your character.
It's extremely limited compared to the traditional themepark gear model. You can hype up what's there if you wish - but we all know that the goal of ArenaNet is to have equal gear-power for everyone very soon after cap.
Before you forget, I'm not advocating that themepark model - just pointing out where it provides longterm motivation.
again no true at all.. there goal is to allow fresh level 80s to be comptetative as soon as they get 80 and allow them to enjoy the content as a fresh 80. They don't want people to NEED to grind out tokens to get gear to enjoy the content of the game. The difference there is plenty of gear with better stats and better looks to strive for they just designed the game so it's not required to tackle the content as it is in other themeparks
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?
I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.
Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.
As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.
But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.
This goes for all games.
It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.
GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.
Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.
Win in EU3? Pray-tell! What is the "winning" condition in EU3?
Being a sandbox strategy game, that's very much subject to point of view. It would depend on the player and his strategic ambitions. One might argue that finishing the game is a victory in itself.
You could have just said "there's no win condition, you do what you want" thanks. For you maybe "power progression" is your "win". For others it's not. Just like I've never gone for a world conquer in EU3, cause expanding territory isn't my "win". Why isn't going for that pretty armor a valid goal? Is it wrong if I decide my job is to keep Morocco from being rolled over by Castille? What about if I decide my job is to keep Fort Salma/X area free of centaurs?
I am a Sandboxer first and a Raider second, so GW2 theoretically shouldn't be for me.
But I, played the Betas and I agreee the gameplay is somewhat not so boring as in other recent MMO. I can't point my fingers on something, but In WAR, Rift and SWTOR Betas I was bored almost instantly.
In GW2 that doesn't happen.
Me too I keep playing the same starting zone, the Norn, and I am not yet bored of it, so I guess GW2 did something right
But the feature I am more looking forward to is the Dungeons, they look amazing and it looks like they provide a good challenge for the Raiders.
They do not look like the classic linear Dungeons, there is lots of exploration involved which is a plus.
Anyway while waiting for Archeage or EQ3 (I already gave up on TESO), GW2 is a good way to fill the time.
I really doubt the majority will bother maxing their gear in every combination. That's a bit OCD'ish. But even if they did, the game will neither require you to have it for any kind of content - nor will it take long without a gating mechanism - which isn't there.
So, no, I don't think I'm wrong.
OCD'ish like tiered, carrot-on-a-stick, gear progression? Good point, why would anyone want to do that? Those things have very little to do with having fun. More in common with "must do this a couple of hundred times, then do that a few hundred times, then we can do that and after having killed that boss until we're bored out of our minds we get to do a brand new one and actually have a chance of succeeding at downing it."
Skinner box behavior, OCD, where do you draw the line and how can that even be considered real fun?
dont play GW2, quite simple, no 8 pages needed for that conclusion, just the ability to read
not really because there IS a gear grind in a sense.. just not the same type people are used to but it's the type that caters more to both types of players not just one or the other.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
dont play GW2, quite simple, no 8 pages needed for that conclusion, just the ability to read
not really because there IS a gear grind in a sense.. just not the same type people are used to but it's the type that caters more to both types of players not just one or the other.
I don't mind grinding for gear as long as it doesn't work like a ladder where content is locked away because i don't have appropriate purple gear. I believe a lot of players have beginning to dislike this design.
I would love to do dungeons for cosmetic rewards but i am done with WOW style purple loot whoring, it just sucks away all the fun and focus only on loot.
dont play GW2, quite simple, no 8 pages needed for that conclusion, just the ability to read
not really because there IS a gear grind in a sense.. just not the same type people are used to but it's the type that caters more to both types of players not just one or the other.
I don't mind grinding for gear as long as it doesn't work like a ladder where content is locked away because i don't have appropriate purple gear. I believe a lot of players have beginning to dislike this design.
I would love to do dungeons for cosmetic rewards but i am done with WOW style purple loot whoring, it just sucks away all the fun and focus only on loot.
I agree which is why I enjoy GW2 approach on this so much and think a lot more will start to be converted to this mindset over the carrot on a stick tiered gear, hamster wheel style.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
As a fellow raider I will tell you straight that GW2 is a good game, but it isn't enough for the raiders alone. You will need another game alongside to get that fix. However, what GW2 does offer is a lot of PvP and PvE game, and it is fun to play.
I don't mind grinding for gear as long as it doesn't work like a ladder where content is locked away because i don't have appropriate purple gear. I believe a lot of players have beginning to dislike this design.
I would love to do dungeons for cosmetic rewards but i am done with WOW style purple loot whoring, it just sucks away all the fun and focus only on loot.
Yes.
I remember lot of times I had great time in raids with my guild, and when I got to that boss that should drop the last piece I need he dropped something else. And instantly I lost a lot of that fun factor. I didn't wanted that to happen but in game so focused on gear it's very hard to look the other way IMO.
I was starting to dislike that design even before I started to follow GW2.
Some of the best times ive had in mmos was as a progression raider. The feeling you get when you down a boss for the first time that you have put in the time and effort into the learning the strat for (joining a guild that has the content on farm doesnt count folks) is awesome. Vent exploding, its crazy. For people like myself and the people I raided with that was the reason we raided, not for the gear. The gear allowed us to be successful but it was not our motivating factor. Ive never been in a world first kill but Ive been in many, many US first. Its certainly something. You just have to understand thats not what this game is about.
Some of the best times ive had in mmos was as a progression raider. The feeling you get when you down a boss for the first time that you have put in the time and effort into the learning the strat for (joining a guild that has the content on farm doesnt count folks) is awesome. Vent exploding, its crazy. For people like myself and the people I raided with that was the reason we raided, not for the gear. The gear allowed us to be successful but it was not our motivating factor. Ive never been in a world first kill but Ive been in many, many US first. Its certainly something. You just have to understand thats not what this game is about.
Appreciate and enjoy the game for what it is.
I have a feeling people will get similar rush from downing the elder dragons as well but we will see..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Some of the best times ive had in mmos was as a progression raider. The feeling you get when you down a boss for the first time that you have put in the time and effort into the learning the strat for (joining a guild that has the content on farm doesnt count folks) is awesome. Vent exploding, its crazy. For people like myself and the people I raided with that was the reason we raided, not for the gear. The gear allowed us to be successful but it was not our motivating factor. Ive never been in a world first kill but Ive been in many, many US first. Its certainly something. You just have to understand thats not what this game is about.
Appreciate and enjoy the game for what it is.
Sadly not everyone thinks like you and in raiding games based purely on loot..the loot does become the only motivational factor. Why do you think you see so much elitisism in these MMOS? purple loot designs bring the worst out of people and TSW is the most recent example to prove this notion of mine.
dont play GW2, quite simple, no 8 pages needed for that conclusion, just the ability to read
There's some great irony in your post here, as perhaps you didn't have the ability to read my original post which was (I think) very positive about the game. Also I pointed out exactly why there was enough gear "grinding" -- or lets call it seeking instead -- to keep even me, a confessed hard core raider, happy.
Try to look through the thread a little deeper before you become snide with people.
dont play GW2, quite simple, no 8 pages needed for that conclusion, just the ability to read
GW2 has a ton of grinding, its a huge part of the end-game. The ability to read would have found that out easily enough. People are still confusing gear grinding for builds and looks with their tunnel-experience of being forced to grind for bigger and bigger stats.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Some of the best times ive had in mmos was as a progression raider. The feeling you get when you down a boss for the first time that you have put in the time and effort into the learning the strat for (joining a guild that has the content on farm doesnt count folks) is awesome. Vent exploding, its crazy. For people like myself and the people I raided with that was the reason we raided, not for the gear.
This has been my experience as well, and is the reason that I'm concerned about how long I'll stay interested in PVE in GW2.
I'm motivated by the challenge and teamwork required in raiding. Not gear. Gear for me is just a tool. Which is why, when people say that my endgame experience will be glorious because I have so many ways to farm for cosmetics or whatever, I feel a bit disappointed.
I think finding a good guild that wants to explore the high level dragons and ALSO be organized in PVP will be the thing that makes this game work for me.
What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?
I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.
Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.
As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.
But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.
This goes for all games.
It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.
GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.
Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.
People will quit playing GW2 because it does not have power progression? Want to bet? Login GW1, a very much the same system in terms of no "power progression" and strictly cosmetic progression.. I will tell you right now that some of the main areas in GW1 have just as many people in them as Stormwind. It probably has more people playing it then every MMO to come out since WoW, gee, I wonder why?
Where GW2 may have less power progression at level cap (= no gear trendmill), it has more competitive progression than others.
What seems to be the best thing to do at levcap is to search for a high rank in pvp, high rank in pve (exploration mode dungeons), and when all of these has ended, just start a fresh new class (and thanks to ANet, they feel different enough not for it to be a chore).
I'm not talking about PvP.
But I see that every time this debate is started - it goes in the exact same circle over and over.
Just repeat content indefinitely - without motivation beyond doing it for "fun".
Ok, I think I'll give it up and just let the game speak for itself. Hope I'm wrong, actually
How can you find repeating the same content 100 times until you get the right drops to move to the next tier more fun than completting your choice out of hundreds of DE's for tokens? If you take a step back and look at what raiding really is you'll see it's just carrot-on-a-stick induced compulsive behavior. Please don't try to pass that of as an ideal or even as something normal or desirable.
Then a long distant memory resurfaces from some other MMO I've played. I can distantly recall complaining to myself in WoW or Rift or some other game (maybe even SWTOR) that I was annoyed there was no reason to go into the zones I loved the most. Take WoW for example... I used to love a few of the forest zones on Kalimdor (however you spell it), but aside from leveling up a character, there wasn't much reason to go there. Because of that also, it was generally a ghost town except for the few people leveling up. Sometime later, they added archaeology, which kinda made people go quickly buzzing around the zone, but it didn't feel like a meaningful reason to visit.
This has been one of the biggest problems I've had with just about every themepark MMO. The game has gorgeous huge open world with a lot of interesting places, but the open world serves no other purpose than leveling.
Sometimes I wonder what is even the point of making a mmorpg if you're going to abandon the core of the game, the open world, once the player has leveled up. For this alone I feel like I'm propably going to stick a bit longer with GW2 than with all these "traditional" mmorpgs that follow the basic quest-grind-and-forget formulae.
There's a bunch of things I dont like about GW2, some design choises that just simply does not fit my "the greatest mmorpg of all time!" vision at all, but the positive core-level improvements when comparing to other themeparks just seem to make up for all the bad, more or less, usually more.
This has been one of the biggest problems I've had with just about every themepark MMO. The game has gorgeous huge open world with a lot of interesting places, but the open world serves no other purpose than leveling.
This is one of my personal dislikes about most MMOs as well. They create vast and beautiful playfields but then waste them all on levelling content which everyone eventually just zips through to get to endgame and then abandons the zones to sit in a single zone/city/lobby and spam LFG/Trade/Whatever looking for dungeon/raid groups.
That was one of the hopes I had for TSW, that they would follow on from Rise of the Godslayer and have 8 zones of endgame content, but instead it's 5 zones of levelling content and 3 of semi-endgame content and then everyone sits in Agartha and spams the LFG channel trying to find a Nightmare dungeon group. Such a disappointment.
The question is will GW2 be any better? Players will still get benefits for going back to lower level zones which is a plus, but they will still gravitate towards the higher level content I think. And will we see a similar situation to other games where everyone at 80 is sitting around trying to find a group for explorable mode dungeons for tokens so they can get their gear sets?
Comments
Being a sandbox strategy game, that's very much subject to point of view. It would depend on the player and his strategic ambitions. One might argue that finishing the game is a victory in itself.
It's extremely limited compared to the traditional themepark gear model. You can hype up what's there if you wish - but we all know that the goal of ArenaNet is to have equal gear-power for everyone very soon after cap.
Before you forget, I'm not advocating that themepark model - just pointing out where it provides longterm motivation.
I'm not talking about PvP.
But I see that every time this debate is started - it goes in the exact same circle over and over.
Just repeat content indefinitely - without motivation beyond doing it for "fun".
Ok, I think I'll give it up and just let the game speak for itself. Hope I'm wrong, actually
Why is it limited? Traditionally you have a one armor set that gets progressively more and more powerful.
Doing raids in order, must finish raid1 to go to raid2 etc, getting the armor sets in order. How many are those sets?
In GW2 you can get far easier the top armor/weapon set and then you have to get perfect stat weapons and more specialized runes (the armor sets in GW2) for lots of different builds. Having the best Fire Elementalist Runes/Armor/Weapon doesn't mean much. Having the best Elementalist gear for all elements/situations is what a "max character" will be like. And that will take a lot of time, comparable to a raid progression perhaps, we will see. The difference is that nobody is forcing you to do it, you can stay with one "perfect" build if you want, and you can progress on your own doing a vast variety of activities, instead of farming a single raid until you get your set, then moving to the next raid rinse repeat until you reach the highest tier.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
again no true at all.. there goal is to allow fresh level 80s to be comptetative as soon as they get 80 and allow them to enjoy the content as a fresh 80. They don't want people to NEED to grind out tokens to get gear to enjoy the content of the game. The difference there is plenty of gear with better stats and better looks to strive for they just designed the game so it's not required to tackle the content as it is in other themeparks
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You could have just said "there's no win condition, you do what you want" thanks. For you maybe "power progression" is your "win". For others it's not. Just like I've never gone for a world conquer in EU3, cause expanding territory isn't my "win". Why isn't going for that pretty armor a valid goal? Is it wrong if I decide my job is to keep Morocco from being rolled over by Castille? What about if I decide my job is to keep Fort Salma/X area free of centaurs?
Great post OP
I am a Sandboxer first and a Raider second, so GW2 theoretically shouldn't be for me.
But I, played the Betas and I agreee the gameplay is somewhat not so boring as in other recent MMO. I can't point my fingers on something, but In WAR, Rift and SWTOR Betas I was bored almost instantly.
In GW2 that doesn't happen.
Me too I keep playing the same starting zone, the Norn, and I am not yet bored of it, so I guess GW2 did something right
But the feature I am more looking forward to is the Dungeons, they look amazing and it looks like they provide a good challenge for the Raiders.
They do not look like the classic linear Dungeons, there is lots of exploration involved which is a plus.
Anyway while waiting for Archeage or EQ3 (I already gave up on TESO), GW2 is a good way to fill the time.
OCD'ish like tiered, carrot-on-a-stick, gear progression? Good point, why would anyone want to do that? Those things have very little to do with having fun. More in common with "must do this a couple of hundred times, then do that a few hundred times, then we can do that and after having killed that boss until we're bored out of our minds we get to do a brand new one and actually have a chance of succeeding at downing it."
Skinner box behavior, OCD, where do you draw the line and how can that even be considered real fun?
if you like to grind gear....
dont play GW2, quite simple, no 8 pages needed for that conclusion, just the ability to read
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
not really because there IS a gear grind in a sense.. just not the same type people are used to but it's the type that caters more to both types of players not just one or the other.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I don't mind grinding for gear as long as it doesn't work like a ladder where content is locked away because i don't have appropriate purple gear. I believe a lot of players have beginning to dislike this design.
I would love to do dungeons for cosmetic rewards but i am done with WOW style purple loot whoring, it just sucks away all the fun and focus only on loot.
I agree which is why I enjoy GW2 approach on this so much and think a lot more will start to be converted to this mindset over the carrot on a stick tiered gear, hamster wheel style.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Yes.
I remember lot of times I had great time in raids with my guild, and when I got to that boss that should drop the last piece I need he dropped something else. And instantly I lost a lot of that fun factor. I didn't wanted that to happen but in game so focused on gear it's very hard to look the other way IMO.
I was starting to dislike that design even before I started to follow GW2.
Some of the best times ive had in mmos was as a progression raider. The feeling you get when you down a boss for the first time that you have put in the time and effort into the learning the strat for (joining a guild that has the content on farm doesnt count folks) is awesome. Vent exploding, its crazy. For people like myself and the people I raided with that was the reason we raided, not for the gear. The gear allowed us to be successful but it was not our motivating factor. Ive never been in a world first kill but Ive been in many, many US first. Its certainly something. You just have to understand thats not what this game is about.
Appreciate and enjoy the game for what it is.
I have a feeling people will get similar rush from downing the elder dragons as well but we will see..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Sadly not everyone thinks like you and in raiding games based purely on loot..the loot does become the only motivational factor. Why do you think you see so much elitisism in these MMOS? purple loot designs bring the worst out of people and TSW is the most recent example to prove this notion of mine.
There's some great irony in your post here, as perhaps you didn't have the ability to read my original post which was (I think) very positive about the game. Also I pointed out exactly why there was enough gear "grinding" -- or lets call it seeking instead -- to keep even me, a confessed hard core raider, happy.
Try to look through the thread a little deeper before you become snide with people.
GW2 has a ton of grinding, its a huge part of the end-game. The ability to read would have found that out easily enough. People are still confusing gear grinding for builds and looks with their tunnel-experience of being forced to grind for bigger and bigger stats.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
This has been my experience as well, and is the reason that I'm concerned about how long I'll stay interested in PVE in GW2.
I'm motivated by the challenge and teamwork required in raiding. Not gear. Gear for me is just a tool. Which is why, when people say that my endgame experience will be glorious because I have so many ways to farm for cosmetics or whatever, I feel a bit disappointed.
I think finding a good guild that wants to explore the high level dragons and ALSO be organized in PVP will be the thing that makes this game work for me.
People will quit playing GW2 because it does not have power progression? Want to bet? Login GW1, a very much the same system in terms of no "power progression" and strictly cosmetic progression..
I will tell you right now that some of the main areas in GW1 have just as many people in them as Stormwind. It probably has more people playing it then every MMO to come out since WoW, gee, I wonder why?
How can you find repeating the same content 100 times until you get the right drops to move to the next tier more fun than completting your choice out of hundreds of DE's for tokens? If you take a step back and look at what raiding really is you'll see it's just carrot-on-a-stick induced compulsive behavior. Please don't try to pass that of as an ideal or even as something normal or desirable.
I mean, you have a choice, think about it.
This has been one of the biggest problems I've had with just about every themepark MMO. The game has gorgeous huge open world with a lot of interesting places, but the open world serves no other purpose than leveling.
Sometimes I wonder what is even the point of making a mmorpg if you're going to abandon the core of the game, the open world, once the player has leveled up. For this alone I feel like I'm propably going to stick a bit longer with GW2 than with all these "traditional" mmorpgs that follow the basic quest-grind-and-forget formulae.
There's a bunch of things I dont like about GW2, some design choises that just simply does not fit my "the greatest mmorpg of all time!" vision at all, but the positive core-level improvements when comparing to other themeparks just seem to make up for all the bad, more or less, usually more.
This is one of my personal dislikes about most MMOs as well. They create vast and beautiful playfields but then waste them all on levelling content which everyone eventually just zips through to get to endgame and then abandons the zones to sit in a single zone/city/lobby and spam LFG/Trade/Whatever looking for dungeon/raid groups.
That was one of the hopes I had for TSW, that they would follow on from Rise of the Godslayer and have 8 zones of endgame content, but instead it's 5 zones of levelling content and 3 of semi-endgame content and then everyone sits in Agartha and spams the LFG channel trying to find a Nightmare dungeon group. Such a disappointment.
The question is will GW2 be any better? Players will still get benefits for going back to lower level zones which is a plus, but they will still gravitate towards the higher level content I think. And will we see a similar situation to other games where everyone at 80 is sitting around trying to find a group for explorable mode dungeons for tokens so they can get their gear sets?
The Enlightened take things Lightly