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So what is the secret here?

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  • MaelkorMaelkor Member UncommonPosts: 459

    Did not read the entire thread so not sure if this is covered, however, one thing ANET will not do is lower the price of their game over time.

    They will leave the game at $50 or $60 untill a major expansion comes out. Even then depending on how they do the expansions they will still leave their base game at a high price. The majority of game currently coming out drop their base game to $15 or $20 with one free month within 3 to 6 months of release and start hemorghing players long before. with no sub fee they keep a healthy playerbase - charge more for their base game for a much longer time period and still have a cash shop to keep a steady flow of money in to maintain the game with CSR's etc.

     

    With GW1 model they ended making as much money on some of the expansion material as they did the original game or at least a significant amount of money. When GW2 can no longer provide a good income stream from expansions and new players they will make GW3 or some other game and start the model over again. This is basically the model that a good single player type franchise uses or games like Halo and Call of Duty etc use. If you can get a playerbase up to 5 to 10 million players you dont need a sub fee.

     

    On a side note - if blizzard had actually put a significant amount of the money generated by the sub fees back into the game  - WoW would still be the #1 best seller as they could have created a whole new game engine several times over.  It still has a lot of momentum but that is quickly fading as long time vets move on and newer players see the newer shinier MMO's and other games and pass over WoW.

  • ElSandmanElSandman Member Posts: 94
    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    For those of you comparing "F2P" cash shops to the GW2 Cash Shop, you might as well stop. Normally you would be right about some of the things wrong with a cash shop, but theres 3 major differences in GW2 vs a normal Cash Shop

    1) All of the boosts and stuff, just about everything besides character/bank slots, are also available completely free as drops, quest rewards, daily/monthly task rewards, and 100% map completion rewards. Most games have only 1 option, spend $

    2) If you dont have the money to spend, there are those that have money and are willing to exchange it for in-game gold to save them time. Thats where gem trading comes in, allowing you to buy EVERYTHING (like character and bank slots) in the cash shop completely free you invest the time to make some gold and buy gems.

    3) Just about any cash shop I can think of in any F2P MMO ive ever tried has amongst other things (like massive stat boost) either a) the ability to directly buy better equipment than everyone else , or b) the ability to buy upgraders, allowing you to craft your own equipment to higher grades and much easier than everyone else. GW2 has neither of those

     

    Also consider this. Its pretty easy to guess that theve sold at least 2-3m copies of the game so far in its 1st week, most likely closer to 3. Even if they dont retain 1/3 of those players, they would have around 2m active players. Even if only 10-20% of the players (200-400k) spend an average of $10 a month for buying various things or trading for in-game gold, thats still bringing in 2-4 million bucks per month for them. Thats kind of lowballing it too, since most likely they probably will have somewhere around that percent or higher spending $10, theyre likely also going to have some of the more dedicated players spending quite a bit more than that (ive played with many who wind up spending sometimes $100-200 and more a month on cash shops just cause they have the cash to blow and enjoy the game )which will add a few mor emillion to their profit. This is all, if the game doesnt continue to grow in popularity, which it hopefully will.

    Add in things like expansion sales down the road, and they can very easily turn a profit as well as suppor tthe game well and continue further development, all while over half of the players dont even need to spend a penny in the cash shop unless they really want to. Its win-win for both the players and Anet. They can still turn a decent profit, and we can all play the full game and access everything in the shop without being forced to pay at any time to play.

    Stop right there?  Err no.  In response to your three points:

     

    1). It is called puppy dog selling.  They are getting you addicted to the "crack".

    2) someone still has spent the money.  This just passes control of gold selling back to Anet.  Clever move only enhances the cash shop sales.

    3) haven't seen many of these other FTP games with massive stat boosters and better gear on the cash shop than what you can get in game, myself.  But anyway, GW2 has the drop quality boost item,  so you are wrong on this point.

  • MisarisMisaris Member Posts: 140

    GW2 is like a "free" Facebook game.

     

    they'll get filthy rich by selling gold and keys for locked treasure chests in the Cash Shop, XP Boosts and other knick knack.

     

    don't you get the concept of "free games"... puh-leaze....

  • IneveraskforthisIneveraskforthis Member Posts: 374

    LoL proves that a popular with cash shop is far more profitable and stable compares to month to month subscription base game.

    GW2 is a good game, and it is popular, i am damn sure it will generate hell a lot of revenue via cash shop selling cosmetic items and xp boost/blacklion keys..

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678
    Originally posted by iamjason1989

    LoL proves that a popular with cash shop is far more profitable and stable compares to month to month subscription base game.

    When you can't get people to pay a monthly fee, then a cash shop generated more revenue.  That's pretty clear.  However, if you CAN get people to pay the monthly fee, then that fee is a heck of a lot more profitable than a cash shop.  The vast majority of players in games with signiciant cash shops do not spend 15+ a month on the shop.  If that were the case, Blizzard would switch to a shop to generate more revenue.  But they don't.  Why?  Because they dont' have a rushed MMO or otherwise unpopular MMO that they need to prop up.

    Honestly, games that go FTP to get more players really just show how cheap bandwidth and computing power is these days.  They can afford a lot more people paying less (and in some cases basically nothing) and still make more money than they could with a smaller number paying a monthly fee.

    Regarding LoL, it has a cash shop because if it charged a monthly fee, it would have failed.  Too few would pay for it.  Again, cash shops only generate more revenue when too few would pay for a sub.

    Anyhow, GW2 has a quite modest cash shop.  If they charge for notable content updates, then I won't mind as long as they are reasonable priced.  (E.g. if they are as much content as Bioware has in their paid content, then I won't be remotely happy).  And frankly, I'm look at getting a bank tab in a few days or perhaps a new character slot.  I won't have to spend a dime.  Gems aren't too hard to get with in-game money.  So as far as cash shops go, it's rather small and not even something that requires actual money to be spent.

    I do think it is most definite that this is a much better model for the consumer.  Let's say they charge for content updates such as new zones, etc, but not for changing DEs up and adding them to existing zones (they couldn't charge for the latter).  With each such bit of content, they have to justify it to the consumer.  If that content isn't up to snuff, then it won't be bought as much.  So for each bit of content, they have to fight for sales.  On the other hand, with a monthly sub, this isn't happening.  Look at Blizzard.  They've had hardly any updates in a year and they can still get people to pay for monthly fees AND then pay for MoP on top of it.  A big part of that is just simple psychology.  It's easier for people to not cancel a sub than to cancel it.  Blizzard has its hand in your wallet already.  Then they do things like offer one game if you pay them a bunch of money for a yearly sub.  Woot, they get the profit of 3-4 games sold retail and you get one game of content.

    Subs are a rippoff.  They just don't deliver on content per dollar spent at all.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 7,098
    Originally posted by vgamer
    Originally posted by Warjin
    Originally posted by lifeordinary

    Anet makes a MMO, AAA in quality. Jam packed with content. All the features that one would expect from a themepark MMOS and more. And yet it is not asking customers 15 bucks a month for it? what is it that Anet knows and rest don't? 

    Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

    I keep thinking about it and i just can not explain this. If Anet can do it (they are surely not going bankrupt now are they)...so why does other companies need monthly fee for? and for what i have been paying 15 bucks a month for last 10 years? and where did all that money of you and me go? was it really used in the development of those games?

    So many questions. Please tel me i am not the only one who thinks about this and feels a little stupid for spending all that money for monthly access to MMOS. Were we just conditioned into thinking all these years that monthly fee is 'necessary' for long life of a MMO? were we being fooled?

    p.s English isn't my first language so bear with me ;)

    Anet is making loot from there shop, not only that they will most likly add expacs every 6-8 months for $50 a pop to pretty much be on par with a monthly sub game.

    Wow does that too... Pay for exp. pack and cash shop.

    Where have you been hiding? They pretty much did that with Guild Wars 1.

    Difference now is that they have a bigger cashshop to rake in even more cash.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO Member UncommonPosts: 1,326
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    *snip
    3) haven't seen many of these other FTP games with massive stat boosters and better gear on the cash shop than what you can get in game, myself.  But anyway, GW2 has the drop quality boost item,  so you are wrong on this point.

     I have yet to see one that doesn't.

    Archlord, CABAL, Runes of Magic, Allods Online, ...

    P2W is, in my experience, the norm in F2P gaming.

    imageimage
  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    For those of you comparing "F2P" cash shops to the GW2 Cash Shop, you might as well stop. Normally you would be right about some of the things wrong with a cash shop, but theres 3 major differences in GW2 vs a normal Cash Shop

    1) All of the boosts and stuff, just about everything besides character/bank slots, are also available completely free as drops, quest rewards, daily/monthly task rewards, and 100% map completion rewards. Most games have only 1 option, spend $

    2) If you dont have the money to spend, there are those that have money and are willing to exchange it for in-game gold to save them time. Thats where gem trading comes in, allowing you to buy EVERYTHING (like character and bank slots) in the cash shop completely free you invest the time to make some gold and buy gems.

    3) Just about any cash shop I can think of in any F2P MMO ive ever tried has amongst other things (like massive stat boost) either a) the ability to directly buy better equipment than everyone else , or b) the ability to buy upgraders, allowing you to craft your own equipment to higher grades and much easier than everyone else. GW2 has neither of those

     

    Also consider this. Its pretty easy to guess that theve sold at least 2-3m copies of the game so far in its 1st week, most likely closer to 3. Even if they dont retain 1/3 of those players, they would have around 2m active players. Even if only 10-20% of the players (200-400k) spend an average of $10 a month for buying various things or trading for in-game gold, thats still bringing in 2-4 million bucks per month for them. Thats kind of lowballing it too, since most likely they probably will have somewhere around that percent or higher spending $10, theyre likely also going to have some of the more dedicated players spending quite a bit more than that (ive played with many who wind up spending sometimes $100-200 and more a month on cash shops just cause they have the cash to blow and enjoy the game )which will add a few mor emillion to their profit. This is all, if the game doesnt continue to grow in popularity, which it hopefully will.

    Add in things like expansion sales down the road, and they can very easily turn a profit as well as suppor tthe game well and continue further development, all while over half of the players dont even need to spend a penny in the cash shop unless they really want to. Its win-win for both the players and Anet. They can still turn a decent profit, and we can all play the full game and access everything in the shop without being forced to pay at any time to play.

    Stop right there?  Err no.  In response to your three points:

     

    1). It is called puppy dog selling.  They are getting you addicted to the "crack".

    2) someone still has spent the money.  This just passes control of gold selling back to Anet.  Clever move only enhances the cash shop sales.

    3) haven't seen many of these other FTP games with massive stat boosters and better gear on the cash shop than what you can get in game, myself.  But anyway, GW2 has the drop quality boost item,  so you are wrong on this point.

    1) that has what to do with the ability to get them free if you work for them in game? Looks like youre pretty new to the site, so you probably missed several things int he past with Arenanet (as well as their history with GW1's cash shop)) like when they first mentioned the locked treasure chests, and keys to unlock them only available in  the cash shop. People didn't like that, they brought it up to Arenanet, Arenanet within a week listened to the feedback and added the keys as drops and rewards. One thing Arenanet understands is that getting greedy and trying to milk players results in the loss of players. Empty servers and not enough people to play with, especially in the WvWvW only results in even more loss of players. This also isnt the first game to allow earning of cash shop stuff through game play. DDO has been for a long time considered one of the best cash shops in a F2P because of the ability to earn Favor points which earns you Cash Shop points, so even those not spending money can still unlock everything through gameplay.

    2)  Of course someone spent the money. Were they forced to? No. They did it because they wanted to. But for those who are unwilling or unable to pay, they still get everything. Very few games with cash shops have this in place, leaving players with their only options being either spend $ or be unable to use the shop at all. The ones that do have these sort of options, even if theyre bad games, people generally do mention this factor as one of the good points of the game.

    3) Really dont know how you could claim that unless you just have no experience with F2P games. Where do you think people get the term "Pay 2 Win". Because the majority of F2P games are exactly that because whoever spends the most has the best gear and you cant be competetive without spending a pretty good amount of cash. Ive watched people literally drop hundreds of dollars a month into several F2P games just for a CHANCE to get better gear/upgrades, not even a sure thing. If you look at the list of F2P games, then take maybe 10 of those names off the list, whats left is the list of games that either directly sell good equipment, or the upgraders needed to get good equipment because upgrade rates without them are horrible.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    Well OP ,if you actually knew how much effort and cost Anet is avoiding with tthe design of this game,you would understand it.

    I don't feel like telling every single person because there is a billion GW2 threads many all the same.

    I will tell you this for your own education.....

    Take a look at Gw2 buildings and tell me what you see or don't see.If you don't understand then look on you tube for tutorials on creating a mesh/structure/biuilding.

    There are a ton more things to look at in this game that are cost cutting and ease the operation of the game.

    people that understand how things are designed and done understand how GW2 can deliver what they did.

    It is simply fair value for your dollar.You are playing a f2p game and the quality is F2p quality.

    Now if i compared quality to say Wow a game that charges a sub fee,then yes you are getting better quality,Wow is a game that SHOULD and could operate f2p.However there are other little things that come into play like server cost,we don't know how many people ANet are crushing into servers.So far it seems a lot,too many actually.Quality of GM and support is another aspect that costs money and again i question ANETS quality here.Blizzard operates over 500 servers ,that takes a lot of support staff.

    Blizzard operates an ongoing Test server as does now FFXi.FFXI has released  free content along the way,i doubt you get anything for free in GW2,only xpacs.Of course the term "free" is always questionable,sometimes i just like to say free content is content that was suippose to make launch but never did.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Well OP ,if you actually knew how much effort and cost Anet is avoiding with tthe design of this game,you would understand it.

    I don't feel like telling every single person because there is a billion GW2 threads many all the same.

    I will tell you this for your own education.....

    Take a look at Gw2 buildings and tell me what you see or don't see.If you don't understand then look on you tube for tutorials on creating a mesh/structure/biuilding.

    There are a ton more things to look at in this game that are cost cutting and ease the operation of the game.

    people that understand how things are designed and done understand how GW2 can deliver what they did.

    It is simply fair value for your dollar.You are playing a f2p game and the quality is F2p quality.

    Now if i compared quality to say Wow a game that charges a sub fee,then yes you are getting better quality,Wow is a game that SHOULD and could operate f2p.However there are other little things that come into play like server cost,we don't know how many people ANet are crushing into servers.So far it seems a lot,too many actually.Quality of GM and support is another aspect that costs money and again i question ANETS quality here.Blizzard operates over 500 servers ,that takes a lot of support staff.

    Blizzard operates an ongoing Test server as does now FFXi.FFXI has released  free content along the way,i doubt you get anything for free in GW2,only xpacs.Of course the term "free" is always questionable,sometimes i just like to say free content is content that was suippose to make launch but never did.

    If I had an option to pay 15$/month for a customer service line when I need it, I would gladly pay. No live customer support is a glaring weakness of this B2P model.

  • ThraliaThralia Member Posts: 219
    the secret is future pay2win
  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759
    Originally posted by Thralia
    the secret is future pay2win

    Of course. I mean after all we know GW1 was so pay2win, thats what kept them going all these years..... oh wait.

  • pmilespmiles Member Posts: 383

    OP or MOD need to edit the title of this thread to "Cash Shops... Good or Bad?"

     

    Really has little to do with GW2 other than the fact that it has a cash shop and no sub... so do lots of other games out there.  All you are talking about really is the pros/cons to cash shop over subs.

  • emestoemesto Member Posts: 55
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    Originally posted by Thralia
    the secret is future pay2win

    Of course. I mean after all we know GW1 was so pay2win, thats what kept them going all these years..... oh wait.

    NCSoft is the publisher, and if you take a look at games like Aion you still cannot pay to win, it's just cosmetic items like wedding dresses and lightsabers etc.

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713
    Anet sells their own gold for real money. Enough said. That will bring them tons of money.

    image
  • EricDanieEricDanie Member UncommonPosts: 2,238
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Anet sells their own gold for real money. Enough said. That will bring them tons of money.

    It should be noted that this kind of operation exists in any other game, the only difference being the developer supposedly gets nothing out of it as it gets done by third-parties.

    Anyway, on my experience I decided to spend $10 on gems for improved bank because I am a hoarder, I am saving what I acquire from the black lion chests, there are a few crafting materials (especially orange quality) that have no spot on the collections tab and finally I am also saving the runes/upgrade components I get lucky enough to salvage out of equipment I can't currently sell due to the Trading Post and its eternal maintenance. I will be spending a monthly $10 on gems because I think the game has far more than enough quality to deserve it. Also, it seems it is perfectly viable to get gems for money, at least for now the exchange rates aren't that bad - around 272 gems for 1 gold coin.

    Hopefully the game service will improve by next month and I will then decide to spend more than that $10 limit as long as it feels that money is getting fairly reinvested in the game.

  • Mari2kMari2k Member UncommonPosts: 367

    If they dont get enough money with the cash shop, they will start to make the game pay to win slowly.

    The people that will cry out loud about it, just dont count for them, couse this people are the kind of people that never use cash shop, so it doesnt matter if they leave.

  • EricDanieEricDanie Member UncommonPosts: 2,238
    Originally posted by Mari2k

    If they dont get enough money with the cash shop, they will start to make the game pay to win slowly.

    The people that will cry out loud about it, just dont count for them, couse this people are the kind of people that never use cash shop, so it doesnt matter if they leave.

    That is an unfortunate truth, by featuring a cash shop any kind of philosophy they use will never be as solid as their demand for revenue. It's a reason I inherently despise any cash shop (even the purely cosmetic one) as it gives too much power to the developer but so far they have managed it in a fair way by providing the two-way convertion rates for both currencies and not charging a monthly subscription on top of it.

    I also dislike the "microtransaction" term for cash shops - I refuse to call any shop with items that cost over $5 a microtransaction game.

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