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GW2, TSW, and other modern MMO's
adamlin747
Member UncommonPosts: 28
Is it just me or are games trying so hard not to be WOW that they lose something of which made it good? I personally am a fan of class based gameplay and the trinity of tank damage healer. (though I think they could add to this). I guess I am not a fan of everyone does everything gameplay, maybe I like to be restricted to a certain style of class, I want my tank to be a tank. (maybe you guys don't and that is why these games are being made.) I also don't like how in games such as guild wars 2 that pvp is max lvl or nothing, and I miss learning my class in pvp on the way up, and my final complaint is what is so wrong with world pvp? Why does it seemed to be trending away from this, for me personally this was my favorite aspect of WOW. I can understand not having pvp like Age of conan too chaotic (I think the gank fest was a major reason this game failed) but open world pvp when you are questing and someone attacks and you fight them off was exhilirating. At the very least it should be a server option, but then again maybe the majority of people don't like it now who knows. I just wanted to ask in see if I am in the miniority or do game designers not get it?
Comments
I feel quite a few modern MMOs lack the feeling of an actual world, complete with politics, division and war. I remember playing Everquest and being absolutely afraid to go near a Dark Elf city. I also remember a time when games had ports that had boats coming and going. I think that’s one thing that’s been lost. For the sake of innovation, modern games have developed more advanced combat and questing systems, which are all fantastic features, but they haven’t expanded on the adventures that made earlier games so charming.
Currently, I’m playing Guild Wars 2 and in one way it feels like a world, with the push and pull of dynamic events. Something it always happening, there is so much to explore in the richly detailed world. Yet, it feels too safe. The cities never get invaded, there are no active ports. I feel Guild Wars 2 set a precedence with its take on questing and world interaction, I just hope the genre ( and that game ) can continue to march forward and add a sense of conflict to the world.
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It depends really on player preference. The problem I have with modern MMOs (not including Rift), is the lack of lore or backstory. I think this is where WoW did it best. Lore gives you a reason to do something. Why am I going into this cave to kill this dragon? Because this dragon has been reaking havoc over the last years! Judgement is upon you!.
Most modern games give you like a 5 year history, if you're lucky. Even GW2 which is supposed to take place 20 years (if I remember right) after the original GW. It doesn't seem to build on that much. Most of your time is spent just running around killing stuff with people or massing for a raid on other players in WvW. If you spend more time on the story than all the "kill 10 rats" quests, it gives you a reason to go do something and travel further down the path. Which MMOs are all about.
Alot of developers and players too, think the entire game is about endgame, it's not. MMOs have always, and always will be about the journey. This is where WoW and Rift do it right imho. Yes technically it's an endgame, but the raids and dungeons they add are part of the storyline, they're not just a random area to go kill a boss in. Rift does this better than any other MMO I've ever played. With the quick content releases, by the time you get to the end endgame, where you have all the loot you can get, there's a new adventure waiting for you. WoW does this as well, but there's usually a month or two between content patches where you're stand around stormwind talking to friends, which isn't that bad of a thing. Even heroes need time off hehe.
Edit: I know alot of people think Cataclysm was a failure, but before diablo 3 it was the fastest selling game ever. Blizzard understands that endgame isn't the end all, be all of an MMO. That's why they updated the world. You can go back with a new character and it's like playing a whole new game. There are familiar parts, but it's like a sequel. You're familiar with it, but it's just different.
Open world pvp was rejected by most playerbases that plays MMOs.
Prime example being WoW and its 'EPL towers / lolsand / lol BC Areas that no one did except Halaa to get rep items'.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
No, its time to get away from classes and the many limitations that go with them. Same goes for the trinity, sure, its a time tested mechanic, but not every MMORPG has to be designed around these two features just because WOW succeeded with them.
There were fun to play MMO's before WOW, and even know some titles such as EVE play quite different and are still fun.
I played TSW and enjoyed the way they put it together, unfortunately they couldn't come up with a better end game than dungeon running/gear grinding which has no appeal to me.
Edit: I'd say if there's been any mistake it's been in new titles not moving far enough away from the standard theme park design which as caused them to be less the successful in retaining long term subscribers.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The only thing I can think of recently that didn't try to be WoW was GW2.
TSW had the same type of bs instanced linear solo quest grinding that makes WoW BAD.
WoW has almost no good features to its name, and people need to stop trying to copy it, because we've had bout 9 AAA companies try to make WoW clones and each and every one has failed in a big way.
MMOs started out without classes and were far better, it is about time companies have realized that and gone back to classless systems.
To this day the 2 MMOs I've had the most fun in throughout the history of MMOs (I started with The Realm which was arguably the first graphical MMO) were UO and AC, 2 classless games. I tried EQ when it came out and left it very fast because I just didn't like that setup. Unfortunately the next couple of generations all went to class based with the trinity and I never found any of them able to keep my interest.
I'm glad companies are going back to classless, it is such a better system it isn't even funny.
A large majority of posters on this website have been clamouring for something different. All we've been getting are WoW clones since WoW came out for AAA releases. Now something different comes out and you're complaining that it's not like the WoW clones? I'm coming across harsher than I intend to, but you have a crap load of games to play that cater to open world PvP and the trinity system.
As for world PvP and GW2, if you haven't played WvWvW in GW2, you don't understand. The WvWvW zone is HUGE. The size of some pre-WoW game worlds. There's PvE DE's and non-PvP objectives to be done in WvW.
And in WoW, world PvP WAS a gankfest. I'd be questing and have someone who doesn't even belong in that zone come and gank me while I'm fighting mobs. Then they'd go kill all the quest givers and continue to grief until he got bored. I'd eventually just log out and this is everytime I was ganked. Never was it a fair fight. So yeah, world PvP can blow me.
I feel quite a few modern MMOs lack the feeling of an actual world, complete with politics, division and war. I remember playing Everquest and being absolutely afraid to go near a Dark Elf city. I also remember a time when games had ports that had boats coming and going. I think that’s one thing that’s been lost. For the sake of innovation, modern games have developed more advanced combat and questing systems, which are all fantastic features, but they haven’t expanded on the adventures that made earlier games so charming.
Currently, I’m playing Guild Wars 2 and in one way it feels like a world, with the push and pull of dynamic events. Something it always happening, there is so much to explore in the richly detailed world. Yet, it feels too safe. The cities never get invaded, there are no active ports. I feel Guild Wars 2 set a precedence with its take on questing and world interaction, I just hope the genre ( and that game ) can continue to march forward and add a sense of conflict to the world.
^This plus the option to open world pvp, would make me very happy with GW2. I still prefer the trinity style of gameplay as opposed to everyone does everything but oh well.
You shouldn't worry about coming across as harsh, it bakes my clams to see people do this, after all the years I read that they wanted something different. A lot of them really didn't. You're pretty much stating a fact. A very, very annoying fact. People love change until it happens.
"It depends really on player preference. The problem I have with modern MMOs (not including Rift), is the lack of lore or backstory. I think this is where WoW did it best. Lore gives you a reason to do something. Why am I going into this cave to kill this dragon? Because this dragon has been reaking havoc over the last years! Judgement is upon you!.
Most modern games give you like a 5 year history, if you're lucky. Even GW2 which is supposed to take place 20 years (if I remember right) after the original GW. It doesn't seem to build on that much. Most of your time is spent just running around killing stuff with people or massing for a raid on other players in WvW. If you spend more time on the story than all the "kill 10 rats" quests, it gives you a reason to go do something and travel further down the path. Which MMOs are all about.
Alot of developers and players too, think the entire game is about endgame, it's not. MMOs have always, and always will be about the journey. This is where WoW and Rift do it right imho. Yes technically it's an endgame, but the raids and dungeons they add are part of the storyline, they're not just a random area to go kill a boss in. Rift does this better than any other MMO I've ever played. With the quick content releases, by the time you get to the end endgame, where you have all the loot you can get, there's a new adventure waiting for you. WoW does this as well, but there's usually a month or two between content patches where you're stand around stormwind talking to friends, which isn't that bad of a thing. Even heroes need time off hehe.
Edit: I know alot of people think Cataclysm was a failure, but before diablo 3 it was the fastest selling game ever. Blizzard understands that endgame isn't the end all, be all of an MMO. That's why they updated the world. You can go back with a new character and it's like playing a whole new game. There are familiar parts, but it's like a sequel. You're familiar with it, but it's just different"
True and that is one of the reasons WOW is still king of subscriptions all these years later. I am hoping someone else carries the banner soon.
As much as it pains GW2 fans to hear, it probably won't be GW2. GW2 will hopefully do what I expected, and force people out of their 1 dimensional way of thinking that every MMO has to have the same features to be fun, but it ushers in hopes for change rather than a global revolution. It's the ripple that will hopefully start a wave. GW2, however, is the top contender for the crown (or what's left of it) right now... I just don't see anything else worth hyping on the horizon.
I don't mean open world objectives, I mean the ability to attack and be attacked anywhere. Wow PVP server is what I mean. Like in GW2 there is no enemy players unless you are in a pvp area designed just for pvp. This bores me.
200 years. All of the characters from GW1 are dead and gone. And the main story (not your personal story, but the story about the main NPC characters) mostly unfolds in dungeons.
I got ganked occasionaly but usually it was someone around my level trying to kill me made it fun. The WvsW that I dont like in GW2 is you start at 80 so it feels more like pvp for the sake of it. I guess by the look of the forums though most people here at least dont like the EQ/WOW type of gameplay. I seem to be in the minority on this one. I like the way those worlds were shaped I like what some games are doing now but I guess I just perfer having open pvp in the world, and a class type system.
I never said I wanted drastic change. To be honest I just wanted a new Everquest more my style of game. So don't assume all of us where "clamoring for change" then are upset when we got it. Some people eq2/wow games I just wanted a newer version I guess. I may be in the minority (as it seems I am in the forums at the very least) but don't accuse me of something I didn't say or do.
Good to see I am not completely alone lol.
Nah, I wasn't referring to you, but a lot of people retracted their wishes for a new kind of MMO when one happened. Some of us appreciate the little changes that might benefit the genre in the months and years to come. But yeah, nostalgia is a hard thing to kill, I don't blame you.. heck, the new Kid Icarus games are on-rails shooters and it depresses me because of my love for the original, for an example.
If you're a fan of traditional class/trinity elements and owpvp, that's perfectly fine, but i don't think every mmos is going away from it.
I mean, yes, GW2 and TSW, and maybe TESO in the future, but you have to remember that those features already exist in many mmorpgs today. Wildstar for example will have trinity and, i believe, traditional clasees. Just don't know about owpvp.
If you enjoy those elements in WOW and other games, cool, but many are tired of them. Maybe in the future there will be a good vareity of mmos for everyones desires. For now, let's see what lies ahead for the genre.
Most GW2 don't need it to be. If GW2 doesn't get the sales of wow, honestly~ the thing that makes me SADDEST about that is just those people won't have played and experienced it. It's an amazing, amazing game... and one of the more delicious mmos to come to the landscape in a long time.
Does it have to steal them from WoW? No~ it doesn't... but when people log into that game and get that fresh feeling again now WoW expansion will ever do, and feel how different an MMO can be while still feeling warm, familiar, and worthwhile... I think it'll enrich them as gamers. Especially the gamers who never played an MMO before WoW. They need this, but they won't even try it due to the brainwashing of WoW players who will not see past subscription numbers in the millions when they play on servers limited to thousands.
GW2 is constantly in overflow in many zones. There are MANY people everywhere. This is what I wish Warhammer could have been. Public events everywhere, and lots of social atmosphere. Lively chats in all zones, beautiful, beautiful worlds to explore and a world design made for people to go "where they're not supposed to" to find hidden dungeons and treasure. It can not get a single new person and I'll still be so ridiculously happy with the game, but I care for others, and they deserve to enjoy it too.
I actually want to try GW2 but I can't on principles. I feel a game should either have a cash shop or it should charge you for the game, doing both is just wrong to me so I won't be trying it. If it just had a box price and no store I'd be in there right now trying it out.