there is absolutely no problem in not having trinity. "tanks" arent really tanks as they crumple under conditions. everyone has CC.
basically, you can break the specs down to support, burst dps and sustain. but often, a spec can do two of those.
Eh, despite what Anet says you really can't break it down into just 3 rolls as best I see it.
You have damage, everyone does that to some degree. - DPS
You have condition application, which some people do. - DPS
You have condition removal, which some people do. - SUSTAIN
You have boon application, which some people do. - SUPPORT
You have boon removal, which some people do. - SUPPORT
You have healing, which some people do. - SUSTAIN
There's damage avoidance, which everyone has to do (though some conditions and boons assist here). - SUSTAIN
There's damage mitigation, which is much like avoidance, but still different. - SUSTAIN
there. i get what youre saying though. there are MANY builds within those 3 categories.
More to the point, while you can put a sustain/dps/support label on each category, in the game each one is fundamentally unique. There are some abilities that do two of them, but in a lot of ways each is its own thing with its own set of abilities to provide it. Heck, you could even seperate boons and conditions out into individual boons and conditions since one class that can do boons doesn't necessarily provide the same ones as another.
You really can't get away from how these abilities are seperated by the game mechanics themselves.
there is absolutely no problem in not having trinity. "tanks" arent really tanks as they crumple under conditions. everyone has CC.
basically, you can break the specs down to support, burst dps and sustain. but often, a spec can do two of those.
Eh, despite what Anet says you really can't break it down into just 3 rolls as best I see it.
You have damage, everyone does that to some degree. - DPS
You have condition application, which some people do. - DPS
You have condition removal, which some people do. - SUSTAIN
You have boon application, which some people do. - SUPPORT
You have boon removal, which some people do. - SUPPORT
You have healing, which some people do. - SUSTAIN
There's damage avoidance, which everyone has to do (though some conditions and boons assist here). - SUSTAIN
There's damage mitigation, which is much like avoidance, but still different. - SUSTAIN
there. i get what youre saying though. there are MANY builds within those 3 categories.
What's interesting is that my mesmer is actually an "all of the above".
At random. Really, really at random.
But it is certainly an interesting class. Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.
But it is certainly an interesting class. Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.
Not only does it have a great healing build (which was covered in a Thread that I can't find due to MMORPG's Search... not searching) but one of the core strengths of the Profession is swapping Boons and Conditions (stealing enemy Boons and transferring ally Conditions to enemies).
It definitely has a "random" element to it but I've found it plays pretty "smart" and fun - for example the Signet of Inspiration often gives you a speed boost out of combat making me think the randomness is weighted.
But it is certainly an interesting class. Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.
Not completely at random, but some things to add random elements. For condition removal I keep Null Field as a utility. It removes all conditions on allies and all boons on enemies in its area of effect. Having phantasms traited to provide regeneration on allies near them gives bonus healing, and the beauty of that is that you don't even have to change how you were playing... add the trait and you have added healing. (Caveat, I always have at least one phantasm up, usually more when I'm scepter/pistol.)
Cripples on the enemies can easily be planned (greatsword skill 4) or quasi-random (traited clones to cripple on shatter) plus clones can be traited to remove a boon from the enemy on shatter as well.
Other utilities I'm using and enjoying atm are the reflective bubble (cast around foe, reflects all projectiles back to the foe: Mitigation + damage) and... crap, hang on let me think... ah yes, right now the utility that produces two clones for more added shatter benefits at will. Nothing like a Mind Wrack, hit "8" (where I have it at) then an interrupt, or even distortion at need.
Like some said there is no aggro system. I personally feel the GW2 dungeons like a Wow dungeon with a crappy tank.
I'm not saying that in a bad way, I always kinda like to be able to kite/stun/cc mobs to their death even with a dead/fail tank
There is actually an "Aggro system", however just like Heart quests with those "Progress BarS" that hide how many X Bear Butts you need to farm, Aggro system is hidden just the same.
You can tell this by spamming stuns, or DPS, and standing the closest to a mob than other people. Mobs don't just "randomly" pick a target, and you can actually piss a Veteran, Champion, or Boss mob off to the point it focuses souly on you.
Playing more would lend this info to you more readily however.
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
The problem i see is that in a traditional Trinity game the dev's can scale boss encounters based on how much the tank can midigate damage and how much the healer can heal. This allows a very high level of boss difficulty and complex encounters, something which is lacking in GW2.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Originally posted by stayontarget The problem i see is that in a traditional Trinity game the dev's can scale boss encounters based on how much the tank can midigate damage and how much the healer can heal. This allows a very high level of boss difficulty and complex encounters, something which is lacking in GW2.
Sorry but this really sounds like somebody who has never played the game.
In WoW it is nothing more than "learn the dance steps" gameplay. My Guild had a total of one wipe in our first ever trip into Naxx80 and we were in Blues.
Nobody is posting in here about face-rolling the GW2 dungeons and how they are one-shotting everything. Pretty much the opposite.
It never fails to crack me up when somebody thinks that DBM-style gaming is somehow "high-skill" or "high-challenge" - and I'm not saying that GW2 PvE is "Dark Souls/make you cry" challenging either. It's definitely tougher than WoW when it comes to dungeon content though, and the content won't ever get trivialized due to gear-stat inflation as well.
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.
Originally posted by Yamota You mean in the sense that they cant hold aggro? In that sense yes but you have far more tougher classes like the Guardian and Warrior than say an Elementalist.
Uh, that's not a tank... I don't NEED to read the rest of the thread, you were wrong in the first post.
Sorry but this really sounds like somebody who has never played the game.
In WoW it is nothing more than "learn the dance steps" gameplay. My Guild had a total of one wipe in our first ever trip into Naxx80 and we were in Blues.
Nobody is posting in here about face-rolling the GW2 dungeons and how they are one-shotting everything. Pretty much the opposite.
It never fails to crack me up when somebody thinks that DBM-style gaming is somehow "high-skill" or "high-challenge" - and I'm not saying that GW2 PvE is "Dark Souls/make you cry" challenging either. It's definitely tougher than WoW when it comes to dungeon content though, and the content won't ever get trivialized due to gear-stat inflation as well.
Soo you think its complex ?
You die alot so therefor it must be complex. lol
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.
How exactly is this not tanking?
If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?
Sorry but this really sounds like somebody who has never played the game.
In WoW it is nothing more than "learn the dance steps" gameplay. My Guild had a total of one wipe in our first ever trip into Naxx80 and we were in Blues.
Nobody is posting in here about face-rolling the GW2 dungeons and how they are one-shotting everything. Pretty much the opposite.
It never fails to crack me up when somebody thinks that DBM-style gaming is somehow "high-skill" or "high-challenge" - and I'm not saying that GW2 PvE is "Dark Souls/make you cry" challenging either. It's definitely tougher than WoW when it comes to dungeon content though, and the content won't ever get trivialized due to gear-stat inflation as well.
Soo you think its complex ?
You die alot so therefor it must be complex. lol
Read the other posts in the thread, eh?
Teamwork. Combo Field synergies. Everyone mitigating, clensing, debuffing, and dodging, while at the same time being the primary person responsible for their own health and staying out of fire. No "afk auto-follow auto-attack" dungeon runners here.
The ones who are dying a lot are those who simply can't beat a boss without DBM telling them where to go and what to do.
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.
How exactly is this not tanking?
If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.
How exactly is this not tanking?
If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?
Well this tank has tanking abilities that absorb damage. Pretty innovative, don't you think?
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.
How exactly is this not tanking?
If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?
Well this tank has tanking abilities that absorb damage. Pretty innovative, don't you think?
You do understand his reference to the dps, tank and HEALER trinity, right?
More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.
I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?
I can deal some burst damage in lighting & fire. Apply conditions in earth. Remove conditions whenever I switch to Water. Apply boons whenever I swtich to any attunement. Provide some fairly strong group heals every couple seconds. Avoid damage with my blinds and mitigate it with Weakness. So I certainly don't fall into any category of the trinity, yet my spec has proven to be incredibly effective in dungeons.
Sure it seems like I'm trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none, which is generally a big "no no" in MMORPGs. However there's really a good synergy with the choices I've made with my build and it shows that you don't have to truly focus on 1 thing (e.g. dealing tons of damage) to be effective.
More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.
I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?
What your are likely seeing is Over-leveled people downscaled to the area. On my lvl 40 Warrior I can handle lvl 15-25 Champions pretty easily with Dodging and Cooldowns without much(if any) support.
More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.
I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?
What your are likely seeing is Over-leveled people downscaled to the area. On my Warrior lvl 40 Warrior I can handle lvl 15-25 Champions pretty easily with Dodging and Cooldowns without much(if any) support.
This does NOT work in the Dungeons though.
This. Also, in low level areas, Champions are intentionally weaker than normal.
Yes GW2 has a 'lose trinity' of damage/support/control. Each profession can perform each roll quite well, and all three are needed to successfully complete the dungeons. As Fendel said, there are no tanks. You can certainly build up a very defensive characters but with no way to taunt or control agro, it is impossible to tank.
I notice a lot of folks having trouble with the dungeons, but more and more seem to be 'getting it', that the dungeons in GW2 are not faceroll easy instances where everyone just blasts through them without batting an eye like WoW. They take some skill, knowledge of your profession, complitent builds and above all, working together for the best results.
This ^
The problem w/ GW2 isn't that it doesn't have a trinity. It's that players are still trying to play it like it does. Hell, just yesterday I was playing on an alt, and /map chat was filled with people who honestly believed that the only viable role in GW2 is a glass cannon / damage build.
Rewind that to when I was running dungeons on my main, and I've seen countless numbers of people doing this, only to get 1 shotted when they go to the dungeons. Why? Because they have no health, they never bother to bring any sort of CC, and they are only focused on a 1-dimensional way of playing the game. The more challenging content of GW2 is VERY difficult for these types of people, if not impossible in certain cases.
This game actually demands that you re-evaluate your build at times. Someone posted a video of Kripporian trying to play through CM explorable (and getting his arse kicked). While it was cleverly edited, what it didn't show is how they beat most of the encounters. For example, the hallway full of traps & snipers / bombers at the end cannot be done by glass cannons. It's impossible. You need at least 1 person w/ strong gap closers and survivability. You also need some CC or else you get AoEd by the bomber at the end of the tunnel. Most groups I've been in still don't coordinate their skills, they never bother to change up their build for certain encounters, and they just try and zerg-fest everything.
Some fights that works, others it doesn't. The reason GW2 has a soft trinity, is that it has 3 very important roles, that everyone can fulfill at different times throughout the fight. Having the biggest numbers is often the easiest way to get killed in GW2.
The spreading out of the playerbase is already showing how the "no trinity" system works as opposed to set roles. If you are fighting a champion mob with around five people the fight is going to take longer than any class has cooldowns for. Taking on standard "group" content is going to take more coordination and awareness than the standard trinity.
I cannot speak on dungeons yet, only 29, but I assume the bosses are like overworld champion mobs.
Comments
More to the point, while you can put a sustain/dps/support label on each category, in the game each one is fundamentally unique. There are some abilities that do two of them, but in a lot of ways each is its own thing with its own set of abilities to provide it. Heck, you could even seperate boons and conditions out into individual boons and conditions since one class that can do boons doesn't necessarily provide the same ones as another.
You really can't get away from how these abilities are seperated by the game mechanics themselves.
If you guys are really having trouble on how player cooperation works in GW2, then no amount of blathering on the boards is going to help.
Just try this...
Go into dungeon.
Try to tank a mob...see what happens.
Try to heal the tank...see what happens.
Have your group only DPS and ignore all support and control abilities...see what happens.
You'll learn...or fail and basically just think the dungeon is designed wrong
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
At random. Really, really at random.
But it is certainly an interesting class. Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.
Not only does it have a great healing build (which was covered in a Thread that I can't find due to MMORPG's Search... not searching) but one of the core strengths of the Profession is swapping Boons and Conditions (stealing enemy Boons and transferring ally Conditions to enemies).
It definitely has a "random" element to it but I've found it plays pretty "smart" and fun - for example the Signet of Inspiration often gives you a speed boost out of combat making me think the randomness is weighted.
Not completely at random, but some things to add random elements. For condition removal I keep Null Field as a utility. It removes all conditions on allies and all boons on enemies in its area of effect. Having phantasms traited to provide regeneration on allies near them gives bonus healing, and the beauty of that is that you don't even have to change how you were playing... add the trait and you have added healing. (Caveat, I always have at least one phantasm up, usually more when I'm scepter/pistol.)
Cripples on the enemies can easily be planned (greatsword skill 4) or quasi-random (traited clones to cripple on shatter) plus clones can be traited to remove a boon from the enemy on shatter as well.
Other utilities I'm using and enjoying atm are the reflective bubble (cast around foe, reflects all projectiles back to the foe: Mitigation + damage) and... crap, hang on let me think... ah yes, right now the utility that produces two clones for more added shatter benefits at will. Nothing like a Mind Wrack, hit "8" (where I have it at) then an interrupt, or even distortion at need.
Oderint, dum metuant.
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Sorry but this really sounds like somebody who has never played the game.
In WoW it is nothing more than "learn the dance steps" gameplay. My Guild had a total of one wipe in our first ever trip into Naxx80 and we were in Blues.
Nobody is posting in here about face-rolling the GW2 dungeons and how they are one-shotting everything. Pretty much the opposite.
It never fails to crack me up when somebody thinks that DBM-style gaming is somehow "high-skill" or "high-challenge" - and I'm not saying that GW2 PvE is "Dark Souls/make you cry" challenging either. It's definitely tougher than WoW when it comes to dungeon content though, and the content won't ever get trivialized due to gear-stat inflation as well.
That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.
How exactly is this not tanking?
Uh, that's not a tank... I don't NEED to read the rest of the thread, you were wrong in the first post.
Soo you think its complex ?
You die alot so therefor it must be complex. lol
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Read the other posts in the thread, eh?
Teamwork. Combo Field synergies. Everyone mitigating, clensing, debuffing, and dodging, while at the same time being the primary person responsible for their own health and staying out of fire. No "afk auto-follow auto-attack" dungeon runners here.
The ones who are dying a lot are those who simply can't beat a boss without DBM telling them where to go and what to do.
they probalby also have a "healer"....
Well this tank has tanking abilities that absorb damage. Pretty innovative, don't you think?
You do understand his reference to the dps, tank and HEALER trinity, right?
More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.
I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?
We usually run with 2 healers. I thought it was obvious he was getting healed.
Edit:
Just to avoid further confusion we also brought some DPS.
ohh now you also have healers. This is definately worst than politics...
Funny thing is that my Scepter/Dagger Elementalist can do it all too and still be effective at all of them.
I can deal some burst damage in lighting & fire. Apply conditions in earth. Remove conditions whenever I switch to Water. Apply boons whenever I swtich to any attunement. Provide some fairly strong group heals every couple seconds. Avoid damage with my blinds and mitigate it with Weakness. So I certainly don't fall into any category of the trinity, yet my spec has proven to be incredibly effective in dungeons.
Sure it seems like I'm trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none, which is generally a big "no no" in MMORPGs. However there's really a good synergy with the choices I've made with my build and it shows that you don't have to truly focus on 1 thing (e.g. dealing tons of damage) to be effective.
you are becoming a profesional bubble burster!
What your are likely seeing is Over-leveled people downscaled to the area. On my lvl 40 Warrior I can handle lvl 15-25 Champions pretty easily with Dodging and Cooldowns without much(if any) support.
This does NOT work in the Dungeons though.
This. Also, in low level areas, Champions are intentionally weaker than normal.
This ^
The problem w/ GW2 isn't that it doesn't have a trinity. It's that players are still trying to play it like it does. Hell, just yesterday I was playing on an alt, and /map chat was filled with people who honestly believed that the only viable role in GW2 is a glass cannon / damage build.
Rewind that to when I was running dungeons on my main, and I've seen countless numbers of people doing this, only to get 1 shotted when they go to the dungeons. Why? Because they have no health, they never bother to bring any sort of CC, and they are only focused on a 1-dimensional way of playing the game. The more challenging content of GW2 is VERY difficult for these types of people, if not impossible in certain cases.
This game actually demands that you re-evaluate your build at times. Someone posted a video of Kripporian trying to play through CM explorable (and getting his arse kicked). While it was cleverly edited, what it didn't show is how they beat most of the encounters. For example, the hallway full of traps & snipers / bombers at the end cannot be done by glass cannons. It's impossible. You need at least 1 person w/ strong gap closers and survivability. You also need some CC or else you get AoEd by the bomber at the end of the tunnel. Most groups I've been in still don't coordinate their skills, they never bother to change up their build for certain encounters, and they just try and zerg-fest everything.
Some fights that works, others it doesn't. The reason GW2 has a soft trinity, is that it has 3 very important roles, that everyone can fulfill at different times throughout the fight. Having the biggest numbers is often the easiest way to get killed in GW2.
I cannot speak on dungeons yet, only 29, but I assume the bosses are like overworld champion mobs.