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"Scam" posts- mmorpg mods
stav1
Member Posts: 282
THis is a good site with lots of interesting forums.
Please allow us to continue talking about mmorpgs and exploring their potential.
Scam posts relating to DnL and Mourning prevent the 99.9% of us who want to discuss these games in a mature fashion from doing so.
This type of post made in relation to any game should be dealt with swiftly and harshly by you, the mmorpg mods.
Comments
I don't see how anyone can just expect the staff to broadsword any post that talks about scam. That would mean that the staff would have to verify postings to see if they are valid or not and make a judgement on its legitimacy. Most of the scam posts that have been posted here were conspiracy theory posts and many stated up from things that would clearly indicate that.
Plenty of people have called many MMO's scams over the years, starting with UO and going to EQ II. I don't see it necassary to do anything about them other then use some common sense. That may be just me however.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Those people are entitled to their opinion in the same way you are entitled to yours. Personally I don't see how it prevents anyone from discussing anything. You don't like it? Don't read it. You don't agree with it? Debate them about it.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Indeed i do read and debate these posts.
However i would ask you to do the same. It is obvious after a cursory read of such posts that they merely seek to defame a game and have no other purpose. These posts do not reflect an "opinion" rather a hidden agenda.
These posts overwhelm legitimate posts regarding a game, they obscure the true pros and cons of a game, they stifle real discussion.
Let me ask you - are the above not grounds for moderating a post? If not, what are the criteria you use to moderate posts?
I think it's been mentioned multiple times that flames/open personal attacks will not be tolerated here. Voicing of people's opinions, be it positive or negative are openly accepted and expected.
Actually to me it makes the OP look rather idiotic and I generally don't beleive a thing he says afterwards if its an outright "scam" post and he is doomsaying.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I think it's been mentioned multiple times that flames/open personal attacks will not be tolerated here. Voicing of people's opinions, be it positive or negative are openly accepted and expected.
I'll say it again although you won't listen (even though i am a damn lawyer). Scam posts are NOT a voicing of opinions. Its libel / defamation. Maybe no-one will bother to actually sue you but i think you do have a moral obligation to stop people harming games for no reason.
Dirk_Gentley sums it up quite accurately in this post
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/508/loadthread/36429/setstart/1/loadclass/173
By not moderating these forums properly you are also damaging the reputation of mmorpg.com.
If you are indeed a lawyer then I'm sure you are familiar with the fact that in order for these postings to be considered slander, they must injure the reputation of the company producting the game. Can you prove that these postings are defaming the companies current reputation as that reputation has been established by the companies own actions on it's own forums?
I think it's clearly apparent that the actions of the company itself have set the reputation of the company at such a level where slander is nearly impossible to accomplish as any tangible loss of sales the company will experience will be directly related to the way the members of such company have conducted themselves among the community.
Editted for formatting...
So this forum is like another uselessjunk.net and somethingawful.com? Blimey.
*gets hes trolling gear on*
Is there actually any rules I should avoid breaking?
Personally I think the only solution to this quandry is as follows.
1. mmorpg.com be forced to monitor the IQs of their members
2. Ban all members with IQ below 20.( Unfortunately 95% of us would be banned, myself included resulting in only the lawyers left to discuss legal jargon. Not sure where the gaming would fit in.)
3. Give names, phone numbers and ip addresses of anyone that wrote anything bad in the past and assist in prosecution costs.
4. Make this forum like uselessjunk of the mmorpgs and only allow posts like "wow suck" or "EQ is so much better than <insert mmorpg>" and delete any constructive discussion (or just let trolls bring these discussions down).
Stav1, rather then whining about posts where your favorite game is continuously getting flames and trying to get staff here to delete such posts, why don't you continue to simply support what a great product this game is as you have done in the past? Or is there a little too much smoke over there where all your dreams are dying in what's quickly becoming nothing but a few embers dying in the "morning" ashes?
- Zax
Communities self-regulate by nature. This community tends to jump all over those types of posts, especially when they are made here in the general forum.
I don't think you have a lot to worry about, and I certainly don't think the mods need to be overly aggressive about it.
Its called Free Speech. Unless you are flaming people or spamming- get over it and move on, it should be allowed to stay.
I don't think mmorpg.com deleting the Mourning forum will in any way make Mourning a worse game. For what its worth i do think t will be a good PvP game. And i think DnL will be better - that's why its rather annoying to see scam posts on the DnL forum.
However if you are saying the scam posts are flames which you seem to be - then i agree with you. And i thought that was the type of post that needed moderating. Simply, i fail to see the point of having moderators if "anything goes". Vague mumbling about moderators being concerned with flame posts don't really cut it - since it seems totally arbitrary in respect of the posts considered flames or not on this site.
Zaxtor - I started this post not to say "Mourning is a great game and i am a fanbois" rather i want to make a point that scam posts relating to any game aren't acceptable.
Finally a previous poster in this thread is quite correct- you do need evidence of lible to prove it. That's why people got to court - so the judge can decide the merits of the case on the evidence. I wouldn't want this great site to fall foul of something like that.
"Flames" do not need to be moderated. Personal abuse needs to be moderated. There is a rather large difference between the two.
Heavy moderation has a chilling effect on dialog. It is usually the worst possible way of stifling dissent since those who feel they have something worthwhile to say will often step up their efforts to get their message out. An otherwise paranoid consiracy theory often gains credibility when it is mercilessly crushed by overly-aggressive moderators...moderators and sites come under suspicion for being paid off by the aggrieved company, or simply the rumor itself gains a seeming credibility because it is being persecuted.
You are almost always better left allowing a community to police itself, and only stepping in when it is absolutely necessary to do so. I have never seen a "rumor" post not be attacked by rebuttal, often times a good rebuttal with plenty of reasoned truths.
"Flames" do not need to be moderated. Personal abuse needs to be moderated. There is a rather large difference between the two.
Heavy moderation has a chilling effect on dialog. It is usually the worst possible way of stifling dissent since those who feel they have something worthwhile to say will often step up their efforts to get their message out. An otherwise paranoid consiracy theory often gains credibility when it is mercilessly crushed by overly-aggressive moderators...moderators and sites come under suspicion for being paid off by the aggrieved company, or simply the rumor itself gains a seeming credibility because it is being persecuted.
You are almost always better left allowing a community to police itself, and only stepping in when it is absolutely necessary to do so. I have never seen a "rumor" post not be attacked by rebuttal, often times a good rebuttal with plenty of reasoned truths.
I think I have to completely agree with you on this. I think its what I have been trying to say and just wasn't quite getting it out right.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
By not moderating these forums properly you are also damaging the reputation of mmorpg.com.
Do you understand your statment? Putting aside the fact that this would most likely fall under slander and not libel in order to prosecute someone you would need to show that the person posting it knew it was false and was doing it for the intention of harm. Then you state people are harming games for no reason. So how can they both have a reason and not a reason? Don't intentions assume a reason behind it?
Further since mmorpg.com is not making the statement how are they liabel? They are not making the statements. They have no reason to assume that those statements are false.
As for moral obligation, what is the source of moral obligation? Where does it come from? What futies do we have to games? If saying a game is a "scam" is hurting the game, then isn't any bashing of a game harming the game? It seems to me they both cause "harm" by your concept and websties have this mysterious moral obligation to protect games.
So wouldn't it follow that any negative posts and about game should be deleted? If not then how are you drawing a distinction?
"WoW has horrible graphics and the community is a bunch of kids." By your reasoning I am telling people what is bad about the game. Isn't this causing harm? Maybe blizzard should sue me and mmorpg for allowing me post that statement. Maybe the community as a whole should get together and sue for defimation of character.
The best thing you can do is ignore such posts and do not go to the mourning boards. Seems to me that someone has read too much over there to the point where their brains have become illogical mush like the developers over there? (Can I say that? Will I get sued now by the developers? Oh now I am so scared now
)
By not moderating these forums properly you are also damaging the reputation of mmorpg.com.
Do you understand your statment? Putting aside the fact that this would most likely fall under slander and not libel in order to prosecute someone you would need to show that the person posting it knew it was false and was doing it for the intention of harm. Then you state people are harming games for no reason. So how can they both have a reason and not a reason? Don't intentions assume a reason behind it?
Further since mmorpg.com is not making the statement how are they liabel? They are not making the statements. They have no reason to assume that those statements are false.
As for moral obligation, what is the source of moral obligation? Where does it come from? What futies do we have to games? If saying a game is a "scam" is hurting the game, then isn't any bashing of a game harming the game? It seems to me they both cause "harm" by your concept and websties have this mysterious moral obligation to protect games.
So wouldn't it follow that any negative posts and about game should be deleted? If not then how are you drawing a distinction?
"WoW has horrible graphics and the community is a bunch of kids." By your reasoning I am telling people what is bad about the game. Isn't this causing harm? Maybe blizzard should sue me and mmorpg for allowing me post that statement. Maybe the community as a whole should get together and sue for defimation of character.
The best thing you can do is ignore such posts and do not go to the mourning boards. Seems to me that someone has read too much over there to the point where their brains have become illogical mush like the developers over there? (Can I say that? Will I get sued now by the developers? Oh now I am so scared now
)
OK let me simplify things since i amalgamated all the reasons for not allowing these kind of posts together in a rush (hey i don't get paid for posting here
):
1. Legal danger - slander. Appellent would need to fulfill the legal criteria of slander. As you say.
2. Bad impression - people think that the mods are allowing the "scam" posters to harm a game wihout any reason.
The latter ain't part of the legal test for slander.
3. Although mmorpg aren't making the statements themselves, they consent to and provide the medium through which those statements are made. A plaintiff could join mmorpg in any action brought.
4. Moral obligation. Is this so hard to understand? Morality is personal, but to allow persons to post lies which could have a serious impact (eg. destroy the customer base for a game) when you know such posts are lies is immoral. Again, its at the discretion of those in charge what action to take.
5. Your example in relation to WoW is incorrect. You should read some cases about the distinction between mere opinion and slander.
Rest of your post i won't bother answering for obvious reasons.
The fact we are all posting on this topic does show that the credibility of the mmorpg.com mods is in some doubt. I would ask them once again just to let us know the criteria on which they moderate a post.
Flaming has always been and will always be a part of internet forum discussion. Heavily moderated forums usually don't succeed in this type of environment unless they are to be considered of a professional nature. Gamers talking about games really don't fall under this category.
Although the legal speak is in order, I doubt that ANYONE would waste their time trying to introduce a libel case in relation to forum flaming, into a court of law. I would imagine that it would get thrown out faster then you can say "tort reform", unless on the very rare occasion that strong evidence could be presented that the obvious biased, unfounded rant, actually did financial harm to the offended party.
I agree with most present in this thread; it all polices itself in the end, and I see no obligation on MMORPG.com's part to make sure that everything presented in these forums are factual and without malice.
-Raenz-
Providing a medium for speech does not condone speech. Also, I can join you to any action I wish, but that does not mean it will survive judicial muster.
The administrators of this site would merely need to act in good faith provided they were approached with an injunction, or for that matter a serious inquiry that specified wrongdoing. You will be laughed out of court to suggest that the mere presence of a forum indicates agreement with the thoughts that are subsequently provided. Failure to act upon meritorious claims, however, would certainly net judicial scrutiny.
Hence, the question becomes: what is the validity of the claims made? In nearly all cases I have seen on this site or others they are unmeritorious, clearly biased, and riddled with grievances that extend beyond the rationale of the complaint. In other words, there is little or no validity to the claim (rumor) and thus no reason to censure.
Allow people to speak their minds, regardless of the truth of their opinions, is the higher moral ground to take in my opinion. Who is right? This is an entire discussion unto itself, and begins to be a preposterous position to take in this narrow context.
By acting in the role of censor one is presenting one's self in the role of adjudicator of truth. This is a dangerous role to play.
---
Again, communities self-regulate themselves. If you bother to spend any time reading the complaints and responses you will see the trend of fact and fiction, and nearly all of those posts result in insubstantial, biased, fictional claims.
The very nature of public forums immediately implicates public postings and personal opinion, often biased and insubstantial. To suggest that the presence of text on the internet implies truth is naive beyond measure.
I agree on the legal front it is all a matter of degree - the burden of proof being the most important point. Perhaps a joining of mmorpg.com to proceedings would be "laughed out of court" perhaps not. All depends on the facts of the case - do mmorpg.com owe a duty of care? did they act negligently? very hard questions to answer on the fatcs available.
More importantly you say the great solution is that actually the community regulates itself. Generally i agree, if it aint broke don't fix it. But there's been alot of breakage lately!
Doesn't this count as an abject failure of self-regulation - one game's forum removed and another game forum (DnL) sprouting "scam" posts once again? But let's just ignore the problem...
Mourning's removal is entirely out of context, as the removal was by the mods specifically and for reasons that are not 100% clear. Not only does this not fit the context of this conversation it actually goes to suggest that the moderators are involved in this community...which is somewhat contrary to the thrust of many of your arguments.
As for the DnL posts, are they or are they not being rebutted? Just because someone stands on a street corner shouting apocryphal lies doesn't mean everyone around believes them.
No- the removal of Mourning is totally within context and relevant.
I'm not arguing that the mmorpg.com mods are not involved in the community- i'm argiing about how they should be inolved and how mmorpg.com should wnt itself to be perceived.
On the first point, i simply believe the mods should have policed those scam posts better for all the reasons i metion above. DOn't want to argue about this anymore. I think the very fact there are the same "scam" posts on the DnL forum shows the mods policy isn't working.
And what about mmorpg.com? It seems bizarre to me that an online journal (specialising in mmorpgs) effectively refuses to report on the very thing (a mmorpg) its supposed to.
When a newspaper is sued by an angry peron it's allegedly defamed, that newspaper doesn't suddenly stop reporting news about that person. It hasn't even reached that level in the mmorpg.com/Mourning debacle, so why on earth stop reporting on the game?? It does the site a disservice.
OK let me simplify things since i amalgamated all the reasons for not allowing these kind of posts together in a rush (hey i don't get paid for posting here
):
1. Legal danger - slander. Appellent would need to fulfill the legal criteria of slander. As you say.
2. Bad impression - people think that the mods are allowing the "scam" posters to harm a game wihout any reason.
The latter ain't part of the legal test for slander.
3. Although mmorpg aren't making the statements themselves, they consent to and provide the medium through which those statements are made. A plaintiff could join mmorpg in any action brought.
4. Moral obligation. Is this so hard to understand? Morality is personal, but to allow persons to post lies which could have a serious impact (eg. destroy the customer base for a game) when you know such posts are lies is immoral. Again, its at the discretion of those in charge what action to take.
5. Your example in relation to WoW is incorrect. You should read some cases about the distinction between mere opinion and slander.
Rest of your post i won't bother answering for obvious reasons.
The fact we are all posting on this topic does show that the credibility of the mmorpg.com mods is in some doubt. I would ask them once again just to let us know the criteria on which they moderate a post.
The fact that people are posting here says that a lot of us are board. I think you might have doubts about mmorpg mods and maybe some others, but most of us do not. I judge this on the number of people against you versus those who think you are right.
As for my comment about WoW it would not fall any more under opinion than slander. Since you wanted me to look it up here is what slander means:
"defamatory oral statements" The definition of defamatory is "communication to third parties of false statements about a person that injure the reputation of or deter others from associating with that person."
Since I am communicating to third parties about a product that I have never played for the intent to injure the reputation of WoW and to keep people from associating with the game, then it seems to fit with the definition of slander. I mention this only to show that slander is an opinion! An opinions can be slanderous. That is why the courts almost never get involved in cases of slander and only slightly more in cases of libel.
Further in the ACLU vs Reno in 1996 the Supreme Court ruled that the internet is a global communication medium. That is it is to be considered as and protected as freedom of speach. As such those who provide a medium for the communication are not to be held civily or criminally accountable for actions of those who use the medium. If you cannot hold the city responsible for what people say on the public street you cannot hold those who provide a medium responsible for what people use the medium for.
As for moral obligation if you know what morality is and what makes something moral then please share with us. Further please inform of philosophers and theologins of your answer because they have only been at it for a few thousand years so to hear that some on this message board has the answer I am sure would please them.
In order to justify your statement in terms of morality you would need to establish that there is a damage to a game's customer base. That those statements are lies. That mmorpg knows or ought to know that they are lies. That the value of benefits gained by preventing speach outway the loss of freedom of speach. Further that the damge to the game ought to even be considered a harm. Perhaps people's lives would be better if a game didn't reach market? Perhaps it would be better for more people if the game market were less crowded? How are we to assign harms and benefits? Wouldn't it be safer to treat people as though they can make up their own minds and choose the side of caution over censorship?
Not all harm is wrong. Certain drugs harm the body but are necessary to save the life of the patient. Harm happens to people in forms of punishment. Lying to save a life is often considered moral. So not all lies and harms are bad.
So I assume your theory is that there is a harm from a lie that mmorpg knows is a lie hence that harm requires action. So harm is your standard of morality. But hopefully you can see just on the surface how complicated that can be and how it will not solve any issues because off all the questions you leave unanswered.