Why wasn't I informed of the death of quest hubs? They are still there in almost every game. Am I to understand then when any game does something different, it "kills" the industry standard that it broke from?
It's pretty BIG HEADED to think that don't you think?
It's equally as BIG HEADED or small minded to think that doesn't ever happen either. Some things are paradigm shifting. People said the same thing about the Dungeon Finder too, but any major themepark coming out without one is nailed to the tree and castigated now. How did no DungeonFinder work out for RIFT and TOR? Why did LotRO and EQ2 add that after so many years absent them. Because the LFD tool was the death knell for spamming LFG in chat.
Yep, DFTools killed the MMORPG genre. Can't agree more on that one - major paradigm shift.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
A lot of you are missing the point entirely. Hearts in GW2 are not quest hubs. They are called Heart Tasks. These tasks are not required to progress your level or character. In GW2, you can level up efficiently by doing other tasks. WvW, Gathering & Crafting, Exploring, Zone Completion, Vistas, Dynamic Events, Puzzles. All these are alternative ways of leveling and progressing, which do not require Heart Tasks at all.
In WoW, and other MMOs, it is required to use Quest Hubs to level. PvP is the exception, but the xp gain is too minimal anyway.
This so much. There is no need to stay on the same map and go from heart to heart. Those are more like guides to get you around the map. Even then, you can go to other zones and level there. Hell, you can be level 79 and go back to the starting zones and gain XP there too. There's no need to have to level in one place in a single fashion.
And I really don't understand people complaining about tasks such as providing feed to cattle or pouring water on a burning haystack. You can do those things in between killing mobs. Variety. And if you actually speak to the NPC and read the text you'll know why you're doing it.
Dynamic events chaining together make "questing" feel more organic and yes, there's an entire story being woven together as they unfold if you pay attention to what the NPCs say and follow them around. Walls of text in other games? No thanks.
Been playing since the first day of head start and my highest level is 39. Just exploring, taking my time and actually paying attention to the NPCs has changed my outlook on MMOs. Simply cannot go back to how questing works in other games.
oh my this thread is popcorn worthy. Thrash harder haters and fanbois. This thread will have no effect (none at all) on whether or not the next game to come out will have quest hubs. If GW2 is successful then you will see people try to jump on the bandwagon, if not then you will continue to see little dudes with ? marks over their heads. I am still waiting for this to become a "definition" thread and people start posting wikipedia definitions.
The thing is - yes, there is that very vocal group that complains about X, Y, & Z. People often assume that very vocal group is the majority. Often that's incorrect.
TSW tried to break up quest hubs - spreading things out more - so it was not always point A to point B and back to point A. And you know what? People complained about that... they wanted quest hubs. Know what else? Some people liked it.
You can go to any forum for any game - take a look at the number of people posting compared to the number of people playing...and see that the very vocal group is a minority.
How many games have you played...where you've mentioned something in the game and had somebody ask where you saw that...and you say on the forums. Their reply to this being: "There are forums?"
Quest hubs did not originate with WoW. They did not even originate in MMORPGs. They did not originate in RPGs - whether CRPGs or PnP.
Take a look around - they're a part of life. As soon as we as a species started putting down roots, we created hubs.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Quests hubs aren't dead....GW2 just turned whole areas into quest hubs and removed the NPCs giving the quests, but in essence, they haven't really changed. They're just...larger.
Guild Wars 2 public areas are just quest hubs by another name. You still are directed to these areas to perform a number of tasks that culminate in a boss event.
I really do not see anything new here. Pioneered in WAR, refined in Rift and now used extensively in GW2
Guild Wars 2 public areas are just quest hubs by another name. You still are directed to these areas to perform a number of tasks that culminate in a boss event.
I really do not see anything new here. Pioneered in WAR, refined in Rift and now used extensively in GW2
No they aren't even close. Quest hubs are static and the DE's are dynamic. Having someone flag you down and run up to you asking for help or hearing a conversation between NPC's talking about their plight is the way a MMO should e designed. People can take their quest hubs and shove it.
I dont understand how quest hubs are dead.... they are still around. Games new and old still have them... DAOC had quest hubs BEFORE World Of Warcraft so no.. you didn't create them. You also didn't create the exclamation point, you just borrowed it from other peoples ideas (as you mentioned). Don't go all Apple on us and pretend you made something you didnt. You were just involved in making it popular.
You also highly over rate guild wars 2. Its a decent game... but I don't see how anyone can find it that much of a game changer. Instead of exclamation points you look for hearts. The exploring is half hearted too as you are basically dictated where to go. The areas are also VERY small but the map makes them feel very large. When you see how quickly you get places even though your character is slow it kinda brings it home. I am enjoying guild wars 2, but really... stop over hyping it!!! PLEASE!!!!
They aren't, it's just hype and still before the 1-2 month period before the "Wow, there's nothing in GW2 but pvp..." really starts to set in with EVERYONE that's played a couple weeks is at the max level and they go back to WoW for the next expansion or the like..
With all respect, it still boils down to another shiny effect spectacle where the same races and classes are fighting each other in a pvp zone. To me, while folks are trying their best to gloss that fact over, it's still the same thing as any other Asian formula.
If I were 14-24 I suppose this would be a fun video game. I'm grown up, however, and unlike most guys who make mmorpgs, i.e., computer programmers of various types, I studied literature, ancient and world history and truly focused on the brilliance of epical writers - from Homer to Dante' to Tolkien.
This is far from anything epic.
/2 cents. And crud, I wonder if a ban is incoming for my honest to God opinion. I feel like GW2 is the chosen one of the quarter, and I realize that this is all about profiteering. I get that - but darnit, when will I get to log into a pvp fantasy mmorpg with three truly different realms and a purpose to fighting that makes a difference for EVERYONE in my realm?
I'm sure Mr. Kern would love Dynamic Events to kill quest hubs considering he's using DEs as content for his own game (Firefall) in the form of Chosen invasions.
Shouldn't there be some type of conflict of interest check before you start writing columns for this site?
I'm sure Mr. Kern would love Dynamic Events to kill quest hubs considering he's using DEs as content for his own game (Firefall) in the form of Chosen invasions.
Shouldn't there be some type of conflict of interest check before you start writing columns for this site?
My interests are fully disclosed, so you know where I'm coming from. This is why its an editorial, not journalistic article.
I'm sure Mr. Kern would love Dynamic Events to kill quest hubs considering he's using DEs as content for his own game (Firefall) in the form of Chosen invasions.
Shouldn't there be some type of conflict of interest check before you start writing columns for this site?
My interests are fully disclosed, so you know where I'm coming from. This is why its an editorial, not journalistic article.
Thanks for the clarification.
I'm personally not sure killing quest hubs is a good thing as they can be a form of guide for those who prefer a more linear approach. Games like Fallout/Skyrim have showed us that is possible for linear and non-linear to co-exist. Why kill something that a portion of the playerbase enjoys when you can please both groups?
With that said, keep up the good work with Firefall. It's shaping to be more fun and innovative than GW2 will ever be in my opinion.
They aren't, it's just hype and still before the 1-2 month period before the "Wow, there's nothing in GW2 but pvp..." really starts to set in with EVERYONE that's played a couple weeks is at the max level and they go back to WoW for the next expansion or the like..
Levels don't matter so much in GW2. I have about 155 hours in GW2 and only covered about 36% of the map, and thats with one character. I haven't even done any dungeons yet, and very little PvP. The game is not really competing for WoW anyway since WoW it is a raid/gear grind style game. GW2 is more casual and can be played at your leisure.
I have to say that hubs will always be around in older titles though. DEs will be incorporated in future AAA games because they work much better and are more entertaining.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Quest hubs are gone and now I'm grinding just to be high enough level to do quests. I'm begging to do quests. But I can't. So I have to sit and grind mobs, it's like Shadowbane all over again.
Good article. But just to be fair, GW2 is not the first game MMO to kill quest hubs. The Secret World did a similar thing, you still have quest givers, but the quests basically guide you through each zone, while you are free to choose possible paths. It's a bit more goided then GW2 but still very very far away from the WoW quest hubs.
Originally posted by Blackhound Quest hubs are gone and now I'm grinding just to be high enough level to do quests. I'm begging to do quests. But I can't. So I have to sit and grind mobs, it's like Shadowbane all over again.
I had that problem a few times in WoW using my druid. I messed up by stealthing too much and sneaking into areas to finsish quests. Sometimes its good to fight your way in to the quest objective!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Originally posted by Blackhound Quest hubs are gone and now I'm grinding just to be high enough level to do quests. I'm begging to do quests. But I can't. So I have to sit and grind mobs, it's like Shadowbane all over again.
I had that same feeling on my first char around level 13 to 25, almost made me stop playing. Problem was I never moved away from the first two human zones. After that i started to play other zones aside and I am basically always ahead or on par with the level curve. Way more fun. You can't go for 100% map completion in 1-15 then 15-25 then 25-35 without leaving those zones. But going to do 100% in another starting area helps wonders, after level 30 you have tons of zones to choose from.
I admit, they should boost the experience gained in the first two zones a bit, or actively send you to another zone early on as conditioning...
Originally posted by cylon8 is the writer serious i havent even played guildw2 and i can tell you still get fed quests it is the foundation of mmos it wont go anywhere soon
Quest hubs exists in endgame in the sense that certain event chains are very linear and rewarding in karma and loot currency once you figure out when to be where, and what chain they take. After a week some npc hubs in Orr were not only crowded but so over run by farmers of karma currency that mobs died in 0.5 seconds if that. So while they arent called quests anymore, and therefor not questhubs, instead we have event hubs, that serve the same purposes as daily hubs in world of warcraft.
Not only that, but with the heart system its still "go to this place and do these tasks for this NPC." It may not have individual exclamation points over characters heads, but you still have tasks to complete in that area. In some ways, without specific quests, you actually lose some immersion because theres not a lot of backstory behind what you're doing : /
Comments
Yep, DFTools killed the MMORPG genre. Can't agree more on that one - major paradigm shift.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
This so much. There is no need to stay on the same map and go from heart to heart. Those are more like guides to get you around the map. Even then, you can go to other zones and level there. Hell, you can be level 79 and go back to the starting zones and gain XP there too. There's no need to have to level in one place in a single fashion.
And I really don't understand people complaining about tasks such as providing feed to cattle or pouring water on a burning haystack. You can do those things in between killing mobs. Variety. And if you actually speak to the NPC and read the text you'll know why you're doing it.
Dynamic events chaining together make "questing" feel more organic and yes, there's an entire story being woven together as they unfold if you pay attention to what the NPCs say and follow them around. Walls of text in other games? No thanks.
Been playing since the first day of head start and my highest level is 39. Just exploring, taking my time and actually paying attention to the NPCs has changed my outlook on MMOs. Simply cannot go back to how questing works in other games.
oh my this thread is popcorn worthy. Thrash harder haters and fanbois. This thread will have no effect (none at all)
on whether or not the next game to come out will have quest hubs. If GW2 is successful then you will see people try to jump on the bandwagon, if not then you will continue to see little dudes with ? marks over their heads. I am still waiting for this to become a "definition" thread and people start posting wikipedia definitions.
I better not be out of popcorn its kitchen time.
Yes it is
@Torvaldr
The thing is - yes, there is that very vocal group that complains about X, Y, & Z. People often assume that very vocal group is the majority. Often that's incorrect.
TSW tried to break up quest hubs - spreading things out more - so it was not always point A to point B and back to point A. And you know what? People complained about that... they wanted quest hubs. Know what else? Some people liked it.
You can go to any forum for any game - take a look at the number of people posting compared to the number of people playing...and see that the very vocal group is a minority.
How many games have you played...where you've mentioned something in the game and had somebody ask where you saw that...and you say on the forums. Their reply to this being: "There are forums?"
Quest hubs did not originate with WoW. They did not even originate in MMORPGs. They did not originate in RPGs - whether CRPGs or PnP.
Take a look around - they're a part of life. As soon as we as a species started putting down roots, we created hubs.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Guild Wars 2 public areas are just quest hubs by another name. You still are directed to these areas to perform a number of tasks that culminate in a boss event.
I really do not see anything new here. Pioneered in WAR, refined in Rift and now used extensively in GW2
Not for me it isn't. I'm sure it is also for the many millions of people currently playing.
No they aren't even close. Quest hubs are static and the DE's are dynamic. Having someone flag you down and run up to you asking for help or hearing a conversation between NPC's talking about their plight is the way a MMO should e designed. People can take their quest hubs and shove it.
I dont understand how quest hubs are dead.... they are still around. Games new and old still have them... DAOC had quest hubs BEFORE World Of Warcraft so no.. you didn't create them. You also didn't create the exclamation point, you just borrowed it from other peoples ideas (as you mentioned). Don't go all Apple on us and pretend you made something you didnt. You were just involved in making it popular.
You also highly over rate guild wars 2. Its a decent game... but I don't see how anyone can find it that much of a game changer. Instead of exclamation points you look for hearts. The exploring is half hearted too as you are basically dictated where to go. The areas are also VERY small but the map makes them feel very large. When you see how quickly you get places even though your character is slow it kinda brings it home. I am enjoying guild wars 2, but really... stop over hyping it!!! PLEASE!!!!
They aren't, it's just hype and still before the 1-2 month period before the "Wow, there's nothing in GW2 but pvp..." really starts to set in with EVERYONE that's played a couple weeks is at the max level and they go back to WoW for the next expansion or the like..
With all respect, it still boils down to another shiny effect spectacle where the same races and classes are fighting each other in a pvp zone. To me, while folks are trying their best to gloss that fact over, it's still the same thing as any other Asian formula.
If I were 14-24 I suppose this would be a fun video game. I'm grown up, however, and unlike most guys who make mmorpgs, i.e., computer programmers of various types, I studied literature, ancient and world history and truly focused on the brilliance of epical writers - from Homer to Dante' to Tolkien.
This is far from anything epic.
/2 cents. And crud, I wonder if a ban is incoming for my honest to God opinion. I feel like GW2 is the chosen one of the quarter, and I realize that this is all about profiteering. I get that - but darnit, when will I get to log into a pvp fantasy mmorpg with three truly different realms and a purpose to fighting that makes a difference for EVERYONE in my realm?
Sigh.
I'm sure Mr. Kern would love Dynamic Events to kill quest hubs considering he's using DEs as content for his own game (Firefall) in the form of Chosen invasions.
Shouldn't there be some type of conflict of interest check before you start writing columns for this site?
My interests are fully disclosed, so you know where I'm coming from. This is why its an editorial, not journalistic article.
Follow me on <a href="https://twitter.com/grummz">Twitter: @Grummz<;/a>
Thanks for the clarification.
I'm personally not sure killing quest hubs is a good thing as they can be a form of guide for those who prefer a more linear approach. Games like Fallout/Skyrim have showed us that is possible for linear and non-linear to co-exist. Why kill something that a portion of the playerbase enjoys when you can please both groups?
With that said, keep up the good work with Firefall. It's shaping to be more fun and innovative than GW2 will ever be in my opinion.
Great read! and i couldn't agree more with the OP!
Levels don't matter so much in GW2. I have about 155 hours in GW2 and only covered about 36% of the map, and thats with one character. I haven't even done any dungeons yet, and very little PvP. The game is not really competing for WoW anyway since WoW it is a raid/gear grind style game. GW2 is more casual and can be played at your leisure.
I have to say that hubs will always be around in older titles though. DEs will be incorporated in future AAA games because they work much better and are more entertaining.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I had that problem a few times in WoW using my druid. I messed up by stealthing too much and sneaking into areas to finsish quests. Sometimes its good to fight your way in to the quest objective!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I had that same feeling on my first char around level 13 to 25, almost made me stop playing. Problem was I never moved away from the first two human zones. After that i started to play other zones aside and I am basically always ahead or on par with the level curve. Way more fun. You can't go for 100% map completion in 1-15 then 15-25 then 25-35 without leaving those zones. But going to do 100% in another starting area helps wonders, after level 30 you have tons of zones to choose from.
I admit, they should boost the experience gained in the first two zones a bit, or actively send you to another zone early on as conditioning...
so say we all
Quest hubs exists in endgame in the sense that certain event chains are very linear and rewarding in karma and loot currency once you figure out when to be where, and what chain they take. After a week some npc hubs in Orr were not only crowded but so over run by farmers of karma currency that mobs died in 0.5 seconds if that. So while they arent called quests anymore, and therefor not questhubs, instead we have event hubs, that serve the same purposes as daily hubs in world of warcraft.
Its not innovating.