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Love the game, but ability progression is the weakest part
Pigozz
Member UncommonPosts: 886
I think you all know what I mean
The weapon skills all learned around first 7 levels
And pretty much all utility abillities learned by level 40 (if you grind challenges)
This is pretty weak
I know there are traits but that only every 5/10 levels and only being passive abillities - thats not very entertaining
I just went through new WoW talent trees and their specializations and boy was I amazed - I wanted to start MoP just because of them:
The variety of skills and the number of abillities was wonderful
I know that apart from GW2 you barely use most of the abillities you learn in wow, but still it is very ahead of GW2 IMO
For me, looking forward to learn new abillities as I level is my personal carrot on a stick (yup Im a leveler player) and this is what kinda bothers me in GW2
I think Anet should allow you to learn additional weapon skills around lvl 40 every 2/3 levels
so there would be something more meaningfull to look forward and player would already be enough familiar with his class to know what weapon skills he would like to swap (because Anet argument regarding static weapon skills was balance and built-in synergy so players wouldnt feel overhelmed when starting the game)
the bad thing about this idea is that it would require at least doubling the number of all weapon skills for all classes...which is way too much
But ever worse scenario is people leaving because they feel no progression 
So what do you think???
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Comments
I haven't seen MOP talent tree yet but i can only compare skill progression of GW2 to GW1. This was the first thing i noticed during beta and never liked it. Once you play GW1 and look at the amount of skills avilable to you it is very very hard to like GW2 skill system. I still play GW1 and the ability to come up withso many variation in builds is what kept me hooked for 5 years. There is no such hook in GW2.
I miss hunting elite mobs for elite skills ;(
Bite Me
http://www.wowhead.com/talent
Yeah cus the MoP talent tree looks awesome.
Wait, isnt it somewhat like the GW2?
You pick some spells for your bar? Hmm, interesting.
to call traits passive is missing what they do. The do change the playstyle possible to you, depending on what you chosse, the way you use your skills change accordingly. Their is alot of variation in that. If missing that i can understand i can understand you find ability progression the weakest part.
I will give you that i find it unneeded limiting that you have to pay for retraiting your progression in the lines.
61 abilities, 18 talents. What OP is saing is that ability progression goes all the way till 90. in GW2 is stops around 40.
Bite Me
I would kinda agree with this, I have been a dual sword wielder since lvl 1 and ive had the same abilities since the start, upgrading with other utilitys of course but it does make things a little stagnant. If GW2 has implemented a skill and weapon lvling feature it would have made the game perfect.
But not complaining still love the game, but you notice this when you stick to one weapon setup
I agree
As a big fan of Magic:the Gathering
I really loved that GW1 took the idea of it and implemented it into an RPG
If we at least had much more utility abillities and and least 2 more slots for them
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
+1
The problem with GW1 skill systems is that despite havin a ton of skills the reality is that unless you want to gimp yourself the real pool available is much smaller.
Pretty much the same in MTG without "the type 1, type 2, etc.
And there is a big difference with traits,runes and sigils - having faster recharge healing shouts with tons of health and toughness and an auto endure pain at 25% health, while relying on stacking might for damage is much different than stacking power and having shields that reflect projectiles, etc.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I agree that the amount of abilities are on the low side. I would also like to see more abilities. However, I like the fact that traits are seperate from skills. This means more customization in the future (when more skills are added) IMO.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Anyone miss the old " Capture signet " from GW1? and going out and capping every elite skill and looking forward to some crazy build with some offspec elite that had soo much synergy with your class main spec.
Sometimes you make a game, and you take two steps forward in some places, but 3 steps back in others.
Why couldn't the fun systems from GW1 have been in game, just unlocked at higher levels. Right now its like they took the worst part of GW1 ( maxing out early (lvl20)) and mixed in a lot of zerging (questing/and pvp) And just gave it all a higher lvl cap. And instead of giving players the choice of feeling "instanced" like gw1 was, now we feel like ants on mission with no queen? zerging around everywhere.
And don't get me started on how hard it is in this one to "team up" with friends to do anything.
Which was actually an easy part of gw1.
I hate stupid people.
Yep and I think GW2 falls prone to the same thing. Some weapons and utility groups are massively underused because they are obviously less powerful in every situation, as in they arent even situationally good.
I would much rather they focus on balancing the current skills so they are all valid options, before focusing on introducing new ones, which I am sure they will do in expansions.
And how many of those abilities will you use in WoW? 2,3,4 right? People complain about not enough skill variety, or not enough skill progression without taking a look at just how many skills you have all together. The game isn't about who has the most skills or who has their uber skill unlocked it's about who knows their class the best and vistory is based on your personal skill level. Personally I like that I don't have to wait until level 60 to see what my class is really made of. Around level 7 I, and a few hours of play, I can know whether or not this class is for me without grinding days on end to get x amount of levels. Not only that I can just unlock the skills on the weapons i prefer to play with and then jump straight into pvp to see if it's my style. I think their progression model is one of the best I've seen, but this comes from someone who is dog tired of the old MMO schema.
That and I believe it's been said before, but the reason Arenanet went with the current system was for this reason: GW1's system was great! You could create any build you wanted with a choice of thousands of skills, but this left room for thousands of terrible builds to include the one on the inside of the retail box that is [to this day] openly mocked by the developers. This narrows things down for us. Sure there is less 'choice' in the matter, but it gives you better choice in creating the build you want or need; The system is somewhat "noob proof". This means a 'noob' can jump in choose his weapons and have a viable build and can mix it up with his utilities or by changing is offhand/mainhand etc. From what I've seen almost all of the weapon sets are viable - for certain types of play styles. If you love to be a support [mesmer] and just want to sit back and back your team mates up. Staff, oddly enough, is a great option. Chaos storm on top of your allies in the middle of a teamfight, clones that bounce buffs to allies and conditions to enemies(same for your autoattack), a lot of mobility to keep yourself alive; makes for an awesome support build with the right utilities[timewarp,heal, etc]. If you want to be a galss cannon then Greatsword is where its at[also mesmer]. A dagger elementalist can be very deadly but has a higher skill cap as some of its skills can be conditional. Some builds are created with the idea of the 'team' in mind and are meant to be used in team situations.
So there are less skills, yes, but viable builds are accessible to everyone. I think they did this to stop the 'uber builds' from coming about. You all know the cycle. Uber build for sin comes out, Everyone adopts it, Anet nerfs it, new uberbuild comes out. That cycle got quite old. If I have a build that I love I'd rather not have it taken away from me. I am a strong supporter of the curret syste. GW1 was great, but this game is called GW2 for a reason.
The skills in Guild Wars 2 are tediously unvarying. It’s a big problem when you have to spend 80 levels with them, or when you’re limited to a single structured pvp format with them. You spend so much time with your skills that ArenaNet have failed to make them interesting.
The feeling of monotony encroaches too quickly due to an abundance of simple, repeated effects. There are not enough advantages or disadvantages for timing, aiming, and/or chaining skills. Changing how some of the skills behave could put some of the elements like positioning, recognition, and anticipation back into the mix making it much more fulfilling without adding much complexity.
In fact, it is quite possible to maximize synergy, strengthen identity and distinguish sets, and increase opportunity costs, all using existing mechanics, thus maximizing the potential for proficiency without introducing any additional complexity. The Guild Wars 2 engine is so powerful that nearly every ability from games like Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, Guild Wars 1, World of Warcraft, Diablo 2, and many other popular titles could exist in the lands of Tyria. Unfortunately, we’re stuck with skills that predominantly don’t cost anything but time and have very similar activation costs.
Example
The Ranger's Axe & Warhorn(yes i play a ranger)
1: Projectile damage in an area. (Ricochet)
2: Projectile damage in an area. (Splitblade)
3: Projectile damage with a snare. (Winter’s Bite)
4: Damage over time. (Hunter’s Call)
5: Apply Swiftness to allies. (Call of the Wild)
It feels as if activating skills as they are available is the most efficient way to use this set, rather than relying on timing, aiming, coordination, positioning, or using skills in a certain order. This set offers a minor increase in damage if you use skill 2 at point blank range, but little else.
There is little you can do to react to the actions of your opponent or threaten your opponent into responding to your actions. An experienced player will be nearly as threatening as a novice player. If one of either skill 1 or 2 did not cover an area; if any of skills 1 through 4 did not require line of sight; if one or more skills required charging up or channelling; if one or more skills required the player to choose a target; if different ratios of damage or utility could be achieved by using the skills in a different order; if different effects resulted from different situations; and if the actions of your pet influenced one or more of these skills, then attempts to master this weapon set and build a character around these skills would feel much more fulfilling.
An experienced player would be able to outclass a novice with practice. It is possible to reward experience without punishing inexperience, so designing for noob-friendlyness is no excuse. It is acceptable and desirable to have some weapon sets require more experience and other weapon sets to require less, just like it’s easier to play a Dervish than a Warrior; however, that ratio is currently lopsided in favor of monotony.
The solution revolves around the existence of basic and complimentary mechanisms, and rewards for proficiency in assembly and execution of those mechanisms. This means that basic and complimentary mechanisms may exist, and plenty do exist in Guild Wars 2 already, but without assurance that proficiency is aptly rewarded, mastery is meaningless and monotony remains. “Apt rewards” here mean increases in one’s ability to kill or avoid being killed, or to better accomplish objectives secondary to defeating an opponent.
Costs
Currently, activation and recharge time are the primary methods for controlling cost, but aren’t used extensively. Skills could have longer cast times, bonuses for charging up, bonuses or requirements for standing still, or players could channel for an effect that is maintained. Some examples of these exist, but are not at the level of significance they should be at (in order to affect choice based on opportunity) since the removal of energy.
Using activation times and mobility extensively for the cost of skills would not only aid in balance but in differentiation. This approach is one method that would act to alleviate the monotony. When skills have an equal cost, as many do at the moment, there is little or no relationship between opportunity and cost; there is therefore little reason to use one skill rather than another in any given opportunity. If more skills required you to channel, take longer to activate, be stationary, or otherwise force you to weigh the costs of your time and positioning versus the benefits of a skill in a given opportunity, then monotony would be reduced, balance would be fine-tuned, skills and skill sets would differentiate and establish identities, and the removal of energy would be further justified. The inclusion of opportunity costs also adds intrigue, and is a tool subject to veteran mastery. It also allows human reasoning to overpower artificial intelligence. Opportunity costs help make fun happen, and fun is ultimately what Guild Wars 2 should be all about.
Right now it's not fun,the skill system is boring and really lacks any imagination.
That's my 2 cent..
I think the problem will fix itself with an expansion or 2.
Adding more skills and weapons would help, particularly if some skills demands that you have certain points invested in certain trees. Like a thief trickster skill you only could use if you had 30 in the skill.
A new skill to the toolbar at every second of third level wouldnt help me at least. Fewer skills that you need to time is more fun than 100 skills that you just rotate to me at least.
And in many games most of those "new" skills just replaces a lower level skill anyways which is pointless. Take EQ2, you have loads of skills but most of the ones you get post lvl 20 is just an upgrade from a skill you already have and is used a gold/timesink (you buy upgrades for the skills there).
But twice the number of skills to choose between would be nice, and maybe a few new weapons as well. I wouldnt even mind that some new weapon types had a level restriction or forces you to have a certain specc.
I think it's tied with the personal story and lore delivery.
I've hit a wall. I'm level 53. The only thing I have to look foward to is a few passive traits. That coupled with the fact that I'm boosted to 80 for WvW and Spvp really takes away from my desire to keep playing. Weapons need to be much more flexible aswell. Why the hell can't I hold a cepter in my left hand (off hand)?
Idk the little things are starting to bother me. Everyone seems the same for the most part. I think TSW spoiled me in these two areas. There are so many more abilities you can use, and no two characters are alike.
Coming from TSW I did notice this, but it's just a part of the bigger problem.
_No feeling of progression_
Always scaled down.
All abilities unlocked the first day of gaming.
Traits are just meh.
Granted you are a lot stronger when you go to lvl1 heart as a lvl 80, but the feeling of progression lacks while you are still levelling.
Sorry but this is kind of stupid IMHO. You don't learn all skills until level 40 mate. You learn minimum you can afford. Buying all of them require you to hit lvl 80.
Weapons have enough skills. You have skill for each weapon and skills change with class (guardian and warrior use different skills while handling greatsword for example). Skills also change when you switch weapons from left to right and you can switch weapons in mid combat.
And every class can use multiple weapons including underwater weapon set.
Why I need 5 bars of skills like in The Old Republic or other dump game when I will be using only few of them ? Current system is great.
I don't get this complaint at all. Changing wpn on any class is almosta completely different play experience, add to that your utilities and traits and you have so much space for builds it's insane.
Do I want a fake progression where I get one new ability to spam every 3 levels? Nope.
I just went through new WoW talent trees and their specializations and boy was I amazed - I wanted to start MoP just because of them:
That there is a terrible sign when a rather washed up talent system... err sorry thats callng it far more then what it is... a very limited skill options granted rarely over the leveling process stands out as bein better then in another game.
I agree, the ability progression i think is bad... it really helps combined with the down leveling to create an illusion you really aren't making any progress. Talents do help a little but their effects just don't really seem to stand out enough to make it feel like they really play much of a part.
If that's what he's saying then he's full of crap. You don't unlock your last trait point until level 80, and if you don't think traits significantly affect how you play you may want to sit down and really take a good look at the system. Simply unlocking the major trait where my clones cripple foes when destroyed had changed how my mesmer plays, let alone others.
Yes, you have a set number of skills available based on weapons, and a larger set of utilities. When you combine them with traits, though, is when you really see the complexity of the system. Suddenly those skills you unlocked on your wepaons do a whole lot more.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Click the arrow in your utility skills.
See that wide array of skills?
Same kind of array should be for every weapon in the game and you unlock them as you progress.
Why isn't there?
Casual, Lazy, Ambition for balance?
Beats me.