Originally posted by The_Korrigan I have no idea what the OP is talking about. I'm making my own exotic armor with crafting. No problem.
So am I and crafting is something of a grind.
The most boring grind. I tried it but lost interest when I realised I need all kinds of weird ingredients which drop of mobs. What, so I need to farm mobs for crafting ingredients now? No, thanks.
Originally posted by The_Korrigan I have no idea what the OP is talking about. I'm making my own exotic armor with crafting. No problem.
So am I and crafting is something of a grind.
You got to be kidding me. It's not even 5% of the grind required to get any decent armor set in any other MMORPG.
But I guess that for some, if you don't get a gear upgrade on every rabbit you kill, it's a grind...
Ah I see, so that is how it works right? Anyone who mentions the fact that, actually, crafting to max cap to get exotics can be a bit of a grind, well ho ho they must "want teh maxed cap armourz from killing bunniez!!!!".
"Crafting is something of a grind", yeah that's a pretty valid statement actually. I didn't say it needed to be made faster, or easier, or cheaper (in fact I think it should be the opposite). But if you are going to go down the route of capping crafting profs just to provide yourself with full exotics, then yes it can be a bit of a grind.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
But if you are going to go down the route of capping crafting profs just to provide yourself with full exotics, then yes it can be a bit of a grind.
I don't need to cap all profs myself. My guild has 78 members as we speak, and my guildies are very helpful
A kind weaponsmith just made me the two parts I needed yesterday to get my exotic greatsword from the mystic forge with the coins gained from daily/monthly achievements. Took me zero effort except playing the game... the mats came as I was playing, never had to go out of my way to grind.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
You compare this to the gear grind of Wow? Getting exotic gear in GW2 aint that hard and go relatively fast.
Dungeon gear and legendary weapons is another matter but they never promised those werent supposed to be a grind, in fact they talked about grinding for cosmetic stuff since they revealed they were working on the game.
Sure, there is indeed gear you need in the game and you will spend some time grinding it but I still cant think of another modern MMO with less grind.
I think you stick up for this game wayyy too much...on every topic you've been fighting "the good fight" for the sake of ANET.
Unfortunately, you always fail to recognize that all the games you compare this too had ALOT more DIVERSE content than this game. There is NO diversity in the content for this game. Each zone has the same thing over and over and over again.
End game consists of a gear grind and that's it....nothing else. This game just released so it really wouldn't matter if it weren't for the fact that ANET and [mod edit] fans truly believe that this is the best approach for an MMO....it's not....you NEED raids, you NEED daily's, you NEED fishing (in my humble opinion)....in other words you NEED the infamous "Carrot on a stick"....it's why video games are video games...
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Example, if I want to, I can go outside and ride my bike for 3 hours. I don't have to, but I have the option. I can do everything normal in my day without doing this, but its there if I want to.
I have been able to progress and do dungeons with green gear, and have agood time. I know I could probalby hit for more damage or take more hits, but I don't want to, so I don't have to, and there's nothing stopping me from beating the dungeons without it.
Of course a gear with 44 stat is going to be better than a gear with 45 stat. And Arena would be foolish to completely negate gear during leveling down. When people say, there is no grinding, it means you don't need stuff to do stuff of an appropriate level. And you certainly don't need to spend real life money.
I commend people who want to run and do the sme things in this game 100 times. That seems ludacris to me as someone who plays 20 hours a week and is still only level 50 with 33 percent of the world discovered. I havn't even stepped in WvW yet.
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
For the argument that GW2 is P2W, I'm really struggling to see how Anet went back on their word.
They said money for time. And that's still what I am seeing. At best the argument may be Pay for temporary advantage. But eventually the non CS user will catch up. If it were such that the pay to gap could never be bridged or that continuous ongoing use of the CS could maintain the advantage, I'd give more wieght to the argument. At best, I just see this as a temporary lead.
Of course there are many subjective points here. If we had a CS where powerful items or buffs could be obtained by spending money and gotten no other way, that's clear P2W, but GW2 doesn't have that. But what we do have is the choice to buy or grind to get the same items. That said. What is a reaonable grind vs outright cost. So we have to compare the 3 ways to get them. Buy gems to convert to gold, go farm gold or go farm the items. If the relative trade off between those options is fairly even, then I can't reasonably say P2W. If it were such that you can say it's in the game, but no one can really obtain it, then that's just covering the P2W mechanic. I don't really see GW2 like that. Yeah, it may be a bitch, but it's very doable.
Originally posted by The_Korrigan I have no idea what the OP is talking about. I'm making my own exotic armor with crafting. No problem.
So am I and crafting is something of a grind.
The most boring grind. I tried it but lost interest when I realised I need all kinds of weird ingredients which drop of mobs. What, so I need to farm mobs for crafting ingredients now? No, thanks.
Then stop playing MMO's and go play something else.
Yes because it is an inherent function of MMOs to have boring and repetetive grind for crafting....
Originally posted by The_Korrigan I have no idea what the OP is talking about. I'm making my own exotic armor with crafting. No problem.
So am I and crafting is something of a grind.
The most boring grind. I tried it but lost interest when I realised I need all kinds of weird ingredients which drop of mobs. What, so I need to farm mobs for crafting ingredients now? No, thanks.
Then stop playing MMO's and go play something else.
Yes because it is an inherent function of MMOs to have boring and repetetive grind for crafting....
You leveling crafting using discovery I hope.
I found most of the stuff by just playing regularly - there are tons of mobs dropping the same items. Loot bags dropped by mobs also drop stuff - in some events it is possible to get a dozen or more of these bags.
Then you can exchange with your guildies or use the trade post.
It only requires you to go grind mobs if you want. it to be so.
Some of the stuff in GW2 are a bit on the grindy side, I expect them to be fine tuned with time like it happened in GW1.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
Thus, GW2 is not pay to win.
# 2 applies completely....whether ANET intended it or not, people that run dungeon runs or are elites will start asking for the gear that you either have to by gems for or farm gold for. Again, this is poor design (or intentional) from ANET...
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
Thus, GW2 is not pay to win.
# 2 applies completely....whether ANET intended it or not, people that run dungeon runs or are elites will start asking for the gear that you either have to by gems for or farm gold for. Again, this is poor design (or intentional) from ANET...
There will ALWAYS be people like this in every game - 'You can't join because your armor is ont elite'. Then I don't need to play with them - I have my guild to play with alon with other friends who don't care a lick for it. People being that way DOESN'T mean it it P2W - sorry.
I will give an example from GW1. In GvG or in HoH, may people believe you should only use a weapon mod 15% above 50 and that anything else was usless. The problem is 14% above 50, on average only lowered DPS by 1% - it was just elitism only - not playing the game. It is the same with the Elite armors - they give so little.
It is not a poor design, well maybe - poor design of MMO players.
I don't believe your stats. There is no way to reliably test damage in WvW.
I have tested gear difference in the Mists and they are not triple. Not by a longshot.
You saw some crit and got all impressed your perceptions are fooling you. Show me a tripling of DPS when your stats increase from 2500 power to 3000 on a target dummy in the mists and will believe.
However I know that won't happen because I have done it.
There are real differences between say a level40 and a level 80 in WvW but triple is complete BS. The biggest difference is traits.
In the end it doesn't matter. A properly built thief can kill any class in under 5 seconds if the person doesn't have an escape move. Doesn't matter if that person is in all exotics and 80 or not. That doesn't mean their are not build that can counter a theif like that, I know a few guardian and mesmer builds to counter those. They do crappy damage but they can essentially make that thief kill himself.
People are way too hung up on gear. Skill and timing are 1000 times more important especially if you are talking 1v1. An skillfully used escape move far far far more important than 500 toughness. If you are getting focued or attacked by a pure damage+cc build you will die no matter your gear and you will die in seconds. Your only hope is a good escpae move or two + skill.
Originally posted by sonoggi the only thing i agree with you on is the downleveling issue. even at lvl 30 getting downscaled to lvl 15 or so, im 3-shotting mobs. ive also noticed that being +2-3 levels on a particular area will make difficulty trivial. i hope ANet soon revisits scaling in PVE, in general, including and especially DE's vs. large crowds. this being said, GW2 has, by far, the most challenging PVE of any recent MMO and it makes WoW's leveling process look like a cakewalk.
I'm sure 100's of people have already corrected you on this but TSW is more challenging.
And OP you can't be serious. We have a game in which people are completely maxed out, playing somewhat casually, three weeks after launch what a horrible grind...............................
Imagine if they didn't put any grind in the game everyone would be done in what a week instead of three?
What themepark is going to be stupid enough to release with zero grind. They can't make enough content to last much longer than a month and not have people bitching about grind. This genre has picked up some people that never should have played MMO's in the first place and now we get to hear them cry and complain about grind if something isn't literally instant. Game jumping may be fun for some of the non MMO'ers out there but us old school MMO players really dont want to jump from game to game every freaking month.
Originally posted by bunnyhopperBut if you are going to go down the route of capping crafting profs just to provide yourself with full exotics, then yes it can be a bit of a grind.
I don't need to cap all profs myself. My guild has 78 members as we speak, and my guildies are very helpful
A kind weaponsmith just made me the two parts I needed yesterday to get my exotic greatsword from the mystic forge with the coins gained from daily/monthly achievements. Took me zero effort except playing the game... the mats came as I was playing, never had to go out of my way to grind.
^ that.
Come on now, guys... grind is so minimal in this game, I didn't pay attention to my level, my gear, etc. I leveled up and got my mats while playing/pvp'ing, my bank is loaded with stuff.
And what's this pay 2 win/equal? what are you spending money on? Gold is so stupidly easy to get in this game.
And no, a well geared level 80 won't always stomp a low level if you learn to dodge, reflect, daze, etc.
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
Thus, GW2 is not pay to win.
# 2 applies completely....whether ANET intended it or not, people that run dungeon runs or are elites will start asking for the gear that you either have to by gems for or farm gold for. Again, this is poor design (or intentional) from ANET...
There will ALWAYS be people like this in every game - 'You can't join because your armor is ont elite'. Then I don't need to play with them - I have my guild to play with alon with other friends who don't care a lick for it. People being that way DOESN'T mean it it P2W - sorry.
I will give an example from GW1. In GvG or in HoH, may people believe you should only use a weapon mod 15% above 50 and that anything else was usless. The problem is 14% above 50, on average only lowered DPS by 1% - it was just elitism only - not playing the game. It is the same with the Elite armors - they give so little.
It is not a poor design, well maybe - poor design of MMO players.
any MMO that doesnt consider the human element has poor designers. Also, thanks for using ANOTHER Anet game to prove a point.
Fact - elitist's exhist
Fact - they will require the best
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
You compare this to the gear grind of Wow? Getting exotic gear in GW2 aint that hard and go relatively fast.
Dungeon gear and legendary weapons is another matter but they never promised those werent supposed to be a grind, in fact they talked about grinding for cosmetic stuff since they revealed they were working on the game.
Sure, there is indeed gear you need in the game and you will spend some time grinding it but I still cant think of another modern MMO with less grind.
I think you stick up for this game wayyy too much...on every topic you've been fighting "the good fight" for the sake of ANET.
Unfortunately, you always fail to recognize that all the games you compare this too had ALOT more DIVERSE content than this game. There is NO diversity in the content for this game. Each zone has the same thing over and over and over again.
End game consists of a gear grind and that's it....nothing else. This game just released so it really wouldn't matter if it weren't for the fact that ANET and [mod edit] fans truly believe that this is the best approach for an MMO....it's not....you NEED raids, you NEED daily's, you NEED fishing (in my humble opinion)....in other words you NEED the infamous "Carrot on a stick"....it's why video games are video games...
And what you don't understand is that many people who play MMOs hate the gear grind treadmil. Hell, most of WoW's players never RAID.
And GW2 isn't P2W. I can't buy anything in the cash shop that gives me more power than is possible in game. Its pay for convience if anything, and not even that much convience.
Originally posted by Kuinn I think the game needs some long time goals like getting gear that you dont acquire in a day. I dont see farming DE's a grind at all since there's so many of them, I like to run into new ones and take part in it, it's not like in some other games where you need to do the exact same dailies every day for months. It's propably one of the best systems for long time goals atm, level scaling combined with all the DE's in different zones.
The problem with DE, especially the big group ones, is that you can't tell where they are happening unless you are in the vicinity or somebody announce them. Which is why everyone that is after karma enters the WvW and exactly WvW has such big queue times (which will get bigger after the dungeon nerfs). Simply put, karma gain in a relatively successful battleground is 3x the amount of karma in the open word, if for no other reason but because inside the WvW you know exactly where the action is.
I can see that is a problem to who knows how many people, but personally I'm not much of a powerplayer my self and often take my sweet time with things so it's not a problem from my perspective.
You compare this to the gear grind of Wow? Getting exotic gear in GW2 aint that hard and go relatively fast.
Dungeon gear and legendary weapons is another matter but they never promised those werent supposed to be a grind, in fact they talked about grinding for cosmetic stuff since they revealed they were working on the game.
Sure, there is indeed gear you need in the game and you will spend some time grinding it but I still cant think of another modern MMO with less grind.
I think you stick up for this game wayyy too much...on every topic you've been fighting "the good fight" for the sake of ANET.
Unfortunately, you always fail to recognize that all the games you compare this too had ALOT more DIVERSE content than this game. There is NO diversity in the content for this game. Each zone has the same thing over and over and over again.
End game consists of a gear grind and that's it....nothing else. This game just released so it really wouldn't matter if it weren't for the fact that ANET and [mod edit] fans truly believe that this is the best approach for an MMO....it's not....you NEED raids, you NEED daily's, you NEED fishing (in my humble opinion)....in other words you NEED the infamous "Carrot on a stick"....it's why video games are video games...
And what you don't understand is that many people who play MMOs hate the gear grind treadmil. Hell, most of WoW's players never RAID.
And GW2 isn't P2W. I can't buy anything in the cash shop that gives me more power than is possible in game. Its pay for convience if anything, and not even that much convience.
Like I said in the previous post (that you must not have seen) is that the other games have what GW2 + a bunch of other things to do, including Raiding if it fits your fancy.
GW2 allows you to buy items that can be converted into in-game gold. If that's not P2W I don't know what is.....
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
Thus, GW2 is not pay to win.
# 2 applies completely....whether ANET intended it or not, people that run dungeon runs or are elites will start asking for the gear that you either have to by gems for or farm gold for. Again, this is poor design (or intentional) from ANET...
There will ALWAYS be people like this in every game - 'You can't join because your armor is ont elite'. Then I don't need to play with them - I have my guild to play with alon with other friends who don't care a lick for it. People being that way DOESN'T mean it it P2W - sorry.
I will give an example from GW1. In GvG or in HoH, may people believe you should only use a weapon mod 15% above 50 and that anything else was usless. The problem is 14% above 50, on average only lowered DPS by 1% - it was just elitism only - not playing the game. It is the same with the Elite armors - they give so little.
It is not a poor design, well maybe - poor design of MMO players.
any MMO that doesnt consider the human element has poor designers. Also, thanks for using ANOTHER Anet game to prove a point.
Fact - elitist's exhist
Fact - they will require the best
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
= P2W.....
You are missing the point - no game can be designed to remove elitism. It is inherent in our nature as human beings - I am better than you because - all you have to do is look at the American Elections and see elitism on both sides at work.
It is not P2W - I was on a GW1 GvG team and played several teams the were known to have bought accounts because they had the best gear - they lost because they thought it was all gear. You are missing the point - you think everything playes like WoW or Rift and games don't (TSW and GW2 come to mind).
The way to deal with elitiism is ignore them or grind them into a grease spot - not hard to do either.
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
Thus, GW2 is not pay to win.
# 2 applies completely....whether ANET intended it or not, people that run dungeon runs or are elites will start asking for the gear that you either have to by gems for or farm gold for. Again, this is poor design (or intentional) from ANET...
There will ALWAYS be people like this in every game - 'You can't join because your armor is ont elite'. Then I don't need to play with them - I have my guild to play with alon with other friends who don't care a lick for it. People being that way DOESN'T mean it it P2W - sorry.
I will give an example from GW1. In GvG or in HoH, may people believe you should only use a weapon mod 15% above 50 and that anything else was usless. The problem is 14% above 50, on average only lowered DPS by 1% - it was just elitism only - not playing the game. It is the same with the Elite armors - they give so little.
It is not a poor design, well maybe - poor design of MMO players.
any MMO that doesnt consider the human element has poor designers. Also, thanks for using ANOTHER Anet game to prove a point.
Fact - elitist's exhist
Fact - they will require the best
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
= P2W.....
You are missing the point - no game can be designed to remove elitism. It is inherent in our nature as human beings - I am better than you because - all you have to do is look at the American Elections and see elitism on both sides at work.
It is not P2W - I was on a GW1 GvG team and played several teams the were known to have bought accounts because they had the best gear - they lost because they thought it was all gear. You are missing the point - you think everything playes like WoW or Rift and games don't (TSW and GW2 come to mind).
The way to deal with elitiism is ignore them or grind them into a grease spot - not hard to do either.
I wouldn't say that GW2 plays differently than those games...TSW, yeah...not GW2...it's the same with even less imho. but I really wanted you to focus on this line more than any of the others:
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
The fact that you can buy a product with Real money and exchange it for in-game gold is as P2W as it gets....
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
Thus, GW2 is not pay to win.
# 2 applies completely....whether ANET intended it or not, people that run dungeon runs or are elites will start asking for the gear that you either have to by gems for or farm gold for. Again, this is poor design (or intentional) from ANET...
There will ALWAYS be people like this in every game - 'You can't join because your armor is ont elite'. Then I don't need to play with them - I have my guild to play with alon with other friends who don't care a lick for it. People being that way DOESN'T mean it it P2W - sorry.
I will give an example from GW1. In GvG or in HoH, may people believe you should only use a weapon mod 15% above 50 and that anything else was usless. The problem is 14% above 50, on average only lowered DPS by 1% - it was just elitism only - not playing the game. It is the same with the Elite armors - they give so little.
It is not a poor design, well maybe - poor design of MMO players.
any MMO that doesnt consider the human element has poor designers. Also, thanks for using ANOTHER Anet game to prove a point.
Fact - elitist's exhist
Fact - they will require the best
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
= P2W.....
You are missing the point - no game can be designed to remove elitism. It is inherent in our nature as human beings - I am better than you because - all you have to do is look at the American Elections and see elitism on both sides at work.
It is not P2W - I was on a GW1 GvG team and played several teams the were known to have bought accounts because they had the best gear - they lost because they thought it was all gear. You are missing the point - you think everything playes like WoW or Rift and games don't (TSW and GW2 come to mind).
The way to deal with elitiism is ignore them or grind them into a grease spot - not hard to do either.
I wouldn't say that GW2 plays differently than those games...TSW, yeah...not GW2...it's the same with even less imho. but I really wanted you to focus on this line more than any of the others:
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
The fact that you can buy a product with Real money and exchange it for in-game gold is as P2W as it gets....
Get this - THE STATS ARE THE SAME - at lvl 80 Armor is the same - looks are different. NOT P2W - P2M (Pay 2 Model) - maybe....
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So am I and crafting is something of a grind.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You got to be kidding me. It's not even 5% of the grind required to get any decent armor set in any other MMORPG.
But I guess that for some, if you don't get a gear upgrade on every rabbit you kill, it's a grind...
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- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The most boring grind. I tried it but lost interest when I realised I need all kinds of weird ingredients which drop of mobs. What, so I need to farm mobs for crafting ingredients now? No, thanks.
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Ah I see, so that is how it works right? Anyone who mentions the fact that, actually, crafting to max cap to get exotics can be a bit of a grind, well ho ho they must "want teh maxed cap armourz from killing bunniez!!!!".
"Crafting is something of a grind", yeah that's a pretty valid statement actually. I didn't say it needed to be made faster, or easier, or cheaper (in fact I think it should be the opposite). But if you are going to go down the route of capping crafting profs just to provide yourself with full exotics, then yes it can be a bit of a grind.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I don't need to cap all profs myself. My guild has 78 members as we speak, and my guildies are very helpful
A kind weaponsmith just made me the two parts I needed yesterday to get my exotic greatsword from the mystic forge with the coins gained from daily/monthly achievements. Took me zero effort except playing the game... the mats came as I was playing, never had to go out of my way to grind.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I think you stick up for this game wayyy too much...on every topic you've been fighting "the good fight" for the sake of ANET.
Unfortunately, you always fail to recognize that all the games you compare this too had ALOT more DIVERSE content than this game. There is NO diversity in the content for this game. Each zone has the same thing over and over and over again.
End game consists of a gear grind and that's it....nothing else. This game just released so it really wouldn't matter if it weren't for the fact that ANET and [mod edit] fans truly believe that this is the best approach for an MMO....it's not....you NEED raids, you NEED daily's, you NEED fishing (in my humble opinion)....in other words you NEED the infamous "Carrot on a stick"....it's why video games are video games...
So with this definition, Runes of Magic is NOT pay to win.....but it really is???
I think the OP misses the point.
Example, if I want to, I can go outside and ride my bike for 3 hours. I don't have to, but I have the option. I can do everything normal in my day without doing this, but its there if I want to.
I have been able to progress and do dungeons with green gear, and have agood time. I know I could probalby hit for more damage or take more hits, but I don't want to, so I don't have to, and there's nothing stopping me from beating the dungeons without it.
Of course a gear with 44 stat is going to be better than a gear with 45 stat. And Arena would be foolish to completely negate gear during leveling down. When people say, there is no grinding, it means you don't need stuff to do stuff of an appropriate level. And you certainly don't need to spend real life money.
I commend people who want to run and do the sme things in this game 100 times. That seems ludacris to me as someone who plays 20 hours a week and is still only level 50 with 33 percent of the world discovered. I havn't even stepped in WvW yet.
Having played Runes of Magic, and emphasizing on the comment you're responding to,
Pay to Win means that
1. there are things in the game needed to do content. In Runes of Magic, you need gear of particular level in order to do various dungeon content.
2. the only reasonable way to get this gear is to use diamonds to buy it. You could farm it, but it can take days of grinding. This is not reasonable.
GW2 doesnt fit either of these. I don't need a particular toughness or power to do any dungeon. If I'm level 30 and have used any of the gear I've picked up along the way, I will be able to perform the dungeon.
In GW2 I can attempt to get things like legendary gear or exotic gear or matching gear, but these things aren't needed to play the dungeon or acess any content. The help they give u is margional at best.
Thus, GW2 is not pay to win.
For the argument that GW2 is P2W, I'm really struggling to see how Anet went back on their word.
They said money for time. And that's still what I am seeing. At best the argument may be Pay for temporary advantage. But eventually the non CS user will catch up. If it were such that the pay to gap could never be bridged or that continuous ongoing use of the CS could maintain the advantage, I'd give more wieght to the argument. At best, I just see this as a temporary lead.
Of course there are many subjective points here. If we had a CS where powerful items or buffs could be obtained by spending money and gotten no other way, that's clear P2W, but GW2 doesn't have that. But what we do have is the choice to buy or grind to get the same items. That said. What is a reaonable grind vs outright cost. So we have to compare the 3 ways to get them. Buy gems to convert to gold, go farm gold or go farm the items. If the relative trade off between those options is fairly even, then I can't reasonably say P2W. If it were such that you can say it's in the game, but no one can really obtain it, then that's just covering the P2W mechanic. I don't really see GW2 like that. Yeah, it may be a bitch, but it's very doable.
Yes because it is an inherent function of MMOs to have boring and repetetive grind for crafting....
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You leveling crafting using discovery I hope.
I found most of the stuff by just playing regularly - there are tons of mobs dropping the same items. Loot bags dropped by mobs also drop stuff - in some events it is possible to get a dozen or more of these bags.
Then you can exchange with your guildies or use the trade post.
It only requires you to go grind mobs if you want. it to be so.
Some of the stuff in GW2 are a bit on the grindy side, I expect them to be fine tuned with time like it happened in GW1.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
# 2 applies completely....whether ANET intended it or not, people that run dungeon runs or are elites will start asking for the gear that you either have to by gems for or farm gold for. Again, this is poor design (or intentional) from ANET...
There will ALWAYS be people like this in every game - 'You can't join because your armor is ont elite'. Then I don't need to play with them - I have my guild to play with alon with other friends who don't care a lick for it. People being that way DOESN'T mean it it P2W - sorry.
I will give an example from GW1. In GvG or in HoH, may people believe you should only use a weapon mod 15% above 50 and that anything else was usless. The problem is 14% above 50, on average only lowered DPS by 1% - it was just elitism only - not playing the game. It is the same with the Elite armors - they give so little.
It is not a poor design, well maybe - poor design of MMO players.
I don't believe your stats. There is no way to reliably test damage in WvW.
I have tested gear difference in the Mists and they are not triple. Not by a longshot.
You saw some crit and got all impressed your perceptions are fooling you. Show me a tripling of DPS when your stats increase from 2500 power to 3000 on a target dummy in the mists and will believe.
However I know that won't happen because I have done it.
There are real differences between say a level40 and a level 80 in WvW but triple is complete BS. The biggest difference is traits.
In the end it doesn't matter. A properly built thief can kill any class in under 5 seconds if the person doesn't have an escape move. Doesn't matter if that person is in all exotics and 80 or not. That doesn't mean their are not build that can counter a theif like that, I know a few guardian and mesmer builds to counter those. They do crappy damage but they can essentially make that thief kill himself.
People are way too hung up on gear. Skill and timing are 1000 times more important especially if you are talking 1v1. An skillfully used escape move far far far more important than 500 toughness. If you are getting focued or attacked by a pure damage+cc build you will die no matter your gear and you will die in seconds. Your only hope is a good escpae move or two + skill.
I'm sure 100's of people have already corrected you on this but TSW is more challenging.
And OP you can't be serious. We have a game in which people are completely maxed out, playing somewhat casually, three weeks after launch what a horrible grind...............................
Imagine if they didn't put any grind in the game everyone would be done in what a week instead of three?
What themepark is going to be stupid enough to release with zero grind. They can't make enough content to last much longer than a month and not have people bitching about grind. This genre has picked up some people that never should have played MMO's in the first place and now we get to hear them cry and complain about grind if something isn't literally instant. Game jumping may be fun for some of the non MMO'ers out there but us old school MMO players really dont want to jump from game to game every freaking month.
Come on now, guys... grind is so minimal in this game, I didn't pay attention to my level, my gear, etc. I leveled up and got my mats while playing/pvp'ing, my bank is loaded with stuff.
And what's this pay 2 win/equal? what are you spending money on? Gold is so stupidly easy to get in this game.
And no, a well geared level 80 won't always stomp a low level if you learn to dodge, reflect, daze, etc.
any MMO that doesnt consider the human element has poor designers. Also, thanks for using ANOTHER Anet game to prove a point.
Fact - elitist's exhist
Fact - they will require the best
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
= P2W.....
And what you don't understand is that many people who play MMOs hate the gear grind treadmil. Hell, most of WoW's players never RAID.
And GW2 isn't P2W. I can't buy anything in the cash shop that gives me more power than is possible in game. Its pay for convience if anything, and not even that much convience.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
I can see that is a problem to who knows how many people, but personally I'm not much of a powerplayer my self and often take my sweet time with things so it's not a problem from my perspective.
Like I said in the previous post (that you must not have seen) is that the other games have what GW2 + a bunch of other things to do, including Raiding if it fits your fancy.
GW2 allows you to buy items that can be converted into in-game gold. If that's not P2W I don't know what is.....
You are missing the point - no game can be designed to remove elitism. It is inherent in our nature as human beings - I am better than you because - all you have to do is look at the American Elections and see elitism on both sides at work.
It is not P2W - I was on a GW1 GvG team and played several teams the were known to have bought accounts because they had the best gear - they lost because they thought it was all gear. You are missing the point - you think everything playes like WoW or Rift and games don't (TSW and GW2 come to mind).
The way to deal with elitiism is ignore them or grind them into a grease spot - not hard to do either.
I wouldn't say that GW2 plays differently than those games...TSW, yeah...not GW2...it's the same with even less imho. but I really wanted you to focus on this line more than any of the others:
Fiction - farming/grinding for "the best" is just as easy as paying for them with RMT's
The fact that you can buy a product with Real money and exchange it for in-game gold is as P2W as it gets....
Get this - THE STATS ARE THE SAME - at lvl 80 Armor is the same - looks are different. NOT P2W - P2M (Pay 2 Model) - maybe....