A Major Concern about the B2P model: Lack of Power in Consumer Voice or even care about consumer's opinion post launch.
I was really looking forward to the future of the B2P model for saving me money from subs,
but major concerns still stand out. With Guild Wars 2, being the recent huge example of this model in action, I dont like the limited voice of the consumers in this model.
Recently on the official forum a poster voicing their opinion on the poor design decisions that Anet has done to the game over the last few days, and their rude comments, this poster was infracted.
well in most cases in the genre, people would simply say, unsub and dont support the title,
but B2P games dont have a sub. They already have your money. Your voice is meaningless as a consumer because of this.
Noce trolling mate. Just because they didn't care about one whining kid you think they are doing nothing ? I see plenty of dev team in forum. I see people them commenting issues from forum and stuff.
There is big statment about this kid problem and someone posted it there. Also there was REASON for that change.
What this kid was doing - he was farming money doing over and over same dungeon or something. When his milkcow was killed he started whining that he can't farm money anymore. So he was farming money or enjoying the game ? If he was farming then good things happened with this patch. If he was enjoying dungeon then why he is whining ? He can still enjoy it.
GW2 isn't a B2P business model. B2P games don't have cash shops.
I went to the store, and paid 60 dollars for it. I installed it on my computer and could play it instantly. That sounds like B2P to me.
That's not their model though. They have not planned to continue developing the game/supporting it strictly off of box sales. That is dependent upon the microtransactions. If enough people do not spend money in the cash shop...they'll go down. That's their business model.
/cough
Ah...
So it's a buymium?
It's the GW2 model.
I'm not sure I'd really apply any of the current labels to them. IMO, it's not really all that bad of a model. I'm not sure how it will work out - hopefully there are enough players that want to support the game, that they actually do support the game.
It's along the lines of a F2P model with some insurance built in, in the form of buying the box. So they get that upfront amount...upfront - as opposed to having no money upfront. That's perhaps enough to stave off that need for it to be a P2W/F2P-P2P game. So you have to give them credit for that. It's also a case that folks that have spent $50-60+ upfront, might be willing to spend a little more to make sure the game keeps going. They might not be willing to part with $15 a month, but if they throw $2-5 a month at them - that's better than nothing.
I'd use the following analogy:
It's a club with a cover charge but no drink minimum.
As opposed to...
A club with no cover charge but with a drink minimum.
A club where you buy a membership and pay dues, even if you do not go to the club.
A club where there's no cover charge, but they have a monthly plan where you can get a couple of well drinks free each month but you have to pay for your call drinks.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
A troll thread is a troll thread. You can see it in the first post.
In summary 'consumers don't have a voice, because Anet fixed a system that people were enjoying exploiting'. I've been running some new players through the dungeons, and one thing is abundantly clear. The people giving such reactions to the patch are not looking for a challenge, at all. They don't want a skill based game, nor one that offers any degree of difficulty. Basically exactly what GW2 promised to deliver.
Quite a number of the dungeons were way too easy, and Anet fixed it. Get over it. People are still farming dungeons, they just don't have piles of exp and money handed to them on a silver platter, they actually have to work for it a bit now.
I dont agree at all, they want you to keep playing the game and keep buying expansions.
As for subs my voice never got heard so i dont see how its any different there, they want you to keep subing and buy expansions.
Devs have a vision of how theyr game is and very very few move past that post launch sub or no sub, only game i have seen do it drasticly is wow. Thats one title that have changed alot over the years. Most stay the same, they just get bigger.
Swtor is a prime example, poeple voiced theyr opinion quite clearly and it was not to few that did so with theyr sub. Cant say much have changed over there except the f2p part.
There is far more eveidence that they cant change game drasticly after release then the oposite. What you get is 99% of the time what you will keep getting from games. Sub or no sub.
Eve is unique in that it is a sub game but the game style allows you to take breaks and return after any amount of time and effectively pick up where you left off i.e your not x tiers behind in gear. The developers of that game are both close to the player base and react relatively quickly to problems that the gaming community has- they care about the customer experience. In eve subs do also matter probably because they run a really lean profit model with a lower sub base (not a bad thing). If every subbed mmorg worked this way subs would be an equally powerful consumer voice, but that is not the case. The simple truth is p2b means you will pay once you have seen the product, which is allways the most powerful driver for good seller behaviour.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by MMOExposedOriginally posted by zakiyawowThe ANet forum post is just another whiner, nothing much. ANet manage GW1 just fine and I am sure they will treat GW2 the same if not better.
but GW2 isnt GW1.Blizzard did well on Warcraft 1-3doesnt mean they did well with Cata for WoW,,,,Anet made lots of bad design decisions lately which contradicts their words.They don't? Didn't they sell something like 3.4M copies in the first week and was the fastest selling PC game at that time?
You may not like it ... but it is certainly NOT a commercial failure. Heck, it even reviews well (90% on metacritics).
They have also lost nearly 3 million subscribers since the release of Cataclysm.
The loss of so many people FAR outweighs how many boxes it sold in the first month.
People quitting GW2 means they wont buy Gems or expansions but not everyone buys tons of Gems and expansions are pretty far away at this point. So, when someone leaves GW2 theres only a minor impact revenue wise. LOTS of people leaving will be felt but the impact wont be immediate as it was on an MMO like SW:TOR.
So, the loss to ArenaNet and their parent company NCSoft of people quitting GW2 is really only felt in the long term.
A Major Concern about the B2P model: Lack of Power in Consumer Voice or even care about consumer's opinion post launch.
I was really looking forward to the future of the B2P model for saving me money from subs,
but major concerns still stand out. With Guild Wars 2, being the recent huge example of this model in action, I dont like the limited voice of the consumers in this model.
Recently on the official forum a poster voicing their opinion on the poor design decisions that Anet has done to the game over the last few days, and their rude comments, this poster was infracted.
well in most cases in the genre, people would simply say, unsub and dont support the title,
but B2P games dont have a sub. They already have your money. Your voice is meaningless as a consumer because of this.
Faaaantastic. This is good news Consumer voice is fine. Consumer gamers are not, they are dumb, hatefull, agenda driven and usually wrong. I am glad that Anet is in a position where they aren't tied to consumers in that way. Don't like it unsub about it.
With a buy to pay model you have the same sort of consumer pull as you do with any single player game(especially now that almost all single player pc games have some form of forced online requirement). Basically stop buying from the company involved regarding expansions, dlc(or shop in this case) follow ups etc.
Wether or not the company in question pays any attention to this is another question. As is wether or not players will too, i.e. bitch about things then completely ignore thier own complaints and buy the next hyped up piece of junk from said company and start the same process over again.
For the long-term success of any title be it B2P, F2P, sub or others, they need to listen to their customers. If the tide swings against them, it can me going the way of the dodo for them.
For the long-term success of any title be it B2P, F2P, sub or others, they need to listen to their customers. If the tide swings against them, it can me going the way of the dodo for them.
Perhaps if they surveyed them, took into account what percentage replied, and went from there... they have to be careful listening to the vocal minorities on their forums.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Anet must have done something right to have this many haters. If you start to think about it they are badass... You cant even go to a gaming forum without seeing gw2. Handfull people hate it so much they are jealous and they cant just let go its amazing... GW2 FTW
Originally posted by ChrisReitz Anet must have done something right to have this many haters. If you start to think about it they are badass... You cant even go to a gaming forum without seeing gw2. Handfull people hate it so much they are jealous and they cant just let go its amazing... GW2 FTW
Probably has little to do with ANet and mainly with all the folks talking about GW2 as if it butters your toast...
It's kind of chicken and egg though, eh? Fanboi and hater?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Ahhh B2P I love it, it eliminates trash like the gist of it below, which I've had to put up with since Anarchy Online
"If you nerf my OP face-roling class I'll unsub"
"My class is a three shotter and therefore I'm UP'ed, buff me to one shotter or I'll unsub"
"Make the game the way I want it, I'm a paying customer and I know whats best from my armchair or I'll unsub and play panda craft"
"I have L2P issues with my FOTM face-roller, keep being owned by skilled players nerf them plz or I'll unsub"
"GIMME instant Alpha class now because working to be the alpha class is not instant self gratification or I'll quit"
Yep thank you Anet no more rage quitting QQing, happy days ahead for Guild Wars 2 forums
Big winds come from empty caves. Most of those people are making idle threats and everyone knows it. GW2 will still get them no matter their business model. The "threat" will just be phrased "<do what I want> or I'll quit".
As for the OP, I do understand where he's coming to a small degree. B2P games get $60 up front whether you liked the game or not. Of course, as others have stated, they want to keep you playing so you buy stuff in the item shop, buy future expansions and get the word of mouth advertising going.
The customer still has a voice.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Ahhh B2P I love it, it eliminates trash like the gist of it below, which I've had to put up with since Anarchy Online
"If you nerf my OP face-roling class I'll unsub"
"My class is a three shotter and therefore I'm UP'ed, buff me to one shotter or I'll unsub"
"Make the game the way I want it, I'm a paying customer and I know whats best from my armchair or I'll unsub and play panda craft"
"I have L2P issues with my FOTM face-roller, keep being owned by skilled players nerf them plz or I'll unsub"
"GIMME instant Alpha class now because working to be the alpha class is not instant self gratification or I'll quit"
Yep thank you Anet no more rage quitting QQing, happy days ahead for Guild Wars 2 forums
Big winds come from empty caves. Most of those people are making idle threats and everyone knows it. GW2 will still get them no matter their business model. The "threat" will just be phrased " or I'll quit".
As for the OP, I do understand where he's coming to a small degree. B2P games get $60 up front whether you liked the game or not. Of course, as others have stated, they want to keep you playing so you buy stuff in the item shop, buy future expansions and get the word of mouth advertising going.
The customer still has a voice.
I won't dispute its normally just bluster and its a shame GW2 model removes some customer leverage to help provide a positive impact on GW2, but the "I quit" line seems to get taken seriously by dev's and used too many times by one community within a MMO as a weapon againist another community, now I grant that OP classes, items, things, ETC need to be brought back into line, but I've seen well constructed, intelligent & logical arguments go on unheeded and even snubbed by Dev's, but once the "I quit" threads & posts start up en masse "knee-jerk reactions" start which I've seen too many times over too many MMO's for example:
The hunter nerf at the start of WoW 'S WotLK result of knee-jerk = BM & MM smashed everyone had to go SV with Ex-Shot.
The Warrior class at the launch of Rift result of kneel-jerk = out of 6 souls only Paragon Soul with SLi was viable.
SWTOR Smugglers-Scoundrels-Scrappers result of knee-jerk = only Bone saw was left viable.
IMO because of the negetive impact of the "I quit/unsub" it has contributed to ending the days of lasting class choices & consequences and taking the time and effort to L2P and replaced it with FOTM re-rolling & instant gratification face rolling PvP, I don't know maybe I'm just an old MMO Sandboxer dog who doesn't or not happy to want to learn new tricks just my 2 cents n the matter.
Comments
Noce trolling mate. Just because they didn't care about one whining kid you think they are doing nothing ? I see plenty of dev team in forum. I see people them commenting issues from forum and stuff.
There is big statment about this kid problem and someone posted it there. Also there was REASON for that change.
What this kid was doing - he was farming money doing over and over same dungeon or something. When his milkcow was killed he started whining that he can't farm money anymore. So he was farming money or enjoying the game ? If he was farming then good things happened with this patch. If he was enjoying dungeon then why he is whining ? He can still enjoy it.
Kid these days. Never see bigger picture.
It's the GW2 model.
I'm not sure I'd really apply any of the current labels to them. IMO, it's not really all that bad of a model. I'm not sure how it will work out - hopefully there are enough players that want to support the game, that they actually do support the game.
It's along the lines of a F2P model with some insurance built in, in the form of buying the box. So they get that upfront amount...upfront - as opposed to having no money upfront. That's perhaps enough to stave off that need for it to be a P2W/F2P-P2P game. So you have to give them credit for that. It's also a case that folks that have spent $50-60+ upfront, might be willing to spend a little more to make sure the game keeps going. They might not be willing to part with $15 a month, but if they throw $2-5 a month at them - that's better than nothing.
I'd use the following analogy:
It's a club with a cover charge but no drink minimum.
As opposed to...
A club with no cover charge but with a drink minimum.
A club where you buy a membership and pay dues, even if you do not go to the club.
A club where there's no cover charge, but they have a monthly plan where you can get a couple of well drinks free each month but you have to pay for your call drinks.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
A troll thread is a troll thread. You can see it in the first post.
In summary 'consumers don't have a voice, because Anet fixed a system that people were enjoying exploiting'. I've been running some new players through the dungeons, and one thing is abundantly clear. The people giving such reactions to the patch are not looking for a challenge, at all. They don't want a skill based game, nor one that offers any degree of difficulty. Basically exactly what GW2 promised to deliver.
Quite a number of the dungeons were way too easy, and Anet fixed it. Get over it. People are still farming dungeons, they just don't have piles of exp and money handed to them on a silver platter, they actually have to work for it a bit now.
you could make the same argument for any product (game or not) without a recurring fee
and you would be wrong
having a sub or a recurring fee for a service -- does not mean you have MORE consumer voice
dont like a product? stop using the product
EQ2 fan sites
I dont agree at all, they want you to keep playing the game and keep buying expansions.
As for subs my voice never got heard so i dont see how its any different there, they want you to keep subing and buy expansions.
Devs have a vision of how theyr game is and very very few move past that post launch sub or no sub, only game i have seen do it drasticly is wow. Thats one title that have changed alot over the years. Most stay the same, they just get bigger.
Swtor is a prime example, poeple voiced theyr opinion quite clearly and it was not to few that did so with theyr sub. Cant say much have changed over there except the f2p part.
There is far more eveidence that they cant change game drasticly after release then the oposite. What you get is 99% of the time what you will keep getting from games. Sub or no sub.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Meh.
As if it would be better with P2P ...
They don't? Didn't they sell something like 3.4M copies in the first week and was the fastest selling PC game at that time?
You may not like it ... but it is certainly NOT a commercial failure. Heck, it even reviews well (90% on metacritics).
They have also lost nearly 3 million subscribers since the release of Cataclysm.
The loss of so many people FAR outweighs how many boxes it sold in the first month.
People quitting GW2 means they wont buy Gems or expansions but not everyone buys tons of Gems and expansions are pretty far away at this point. So, when someone leaves GW2 theres only a minor impact revenue wise. LOTS of people leaving will be felt but the impact wont be immediate as it was on an MMO like SW:TOR.
So, the loss to ArenaNet and their parent company NCSoft of people quitting GW2 is really only felt in the long term.
Faaaantastic. This is good news Consumer voice is fine. Consumer gamers are not, they are dumb, hatefull, agenda driven and usually wrong. I am glad that Anet is in a position where they aren't tied to consumers in that way. Don't like it unsub about it.
With a buy to pay model you have the same sort of consumer pull as you do with any single player game(especially now that almost all single player pc games have some form of forced online requirement). Basically stop buying from the company involved regarding expansions, dlc(or shop in this case) follow ups etc.
Wether or not the company in question pays any attention to this is another question. As is wether or not players will too, i.e. bitch about things then completely ignore thier own complaints and buy the next hyped up piece of junk from said company and start the same process over again.
For the long-term success of any title be it B2P, F2P, sub or others, they need to listen to their customers. If the tide swings against them, it can me going the way of the dodo for them.
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
Perhaps if they surveyed them, took into account what percentage replied, and went from there... they have to be careful listening to the vocal minorities on their forums.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Probably has little to do with ANet and mainly with all the folks talking about GW2 as if it butters your toast...
It's kind of chicken and egg though, eh? Fanboi and hater?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Big winds come from empty caves. Most of those people are making idle threats and everyone knows it. GW2 will still get them no matter their business model. The "threat" will just be phrased "<do what I want> or I'll quit".
As for the OP, I do understand where he's coming to a small degree. B2P games get $60 up front whether you liked the game or not. Of course, as others have stated, they want to keep you playing so you buy stuff in the item shop, buy future expansions and get the word of mouth advertising going.
The customer still has a voice.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I won't dispute its normally just bluster and its a shame GW2 model removes some customer leverage to help provide a positive impact on GW2, but the "I quit" line seems to get taken seriously by dev's and used too many times by one community within a MMO as a weapon againist another community, now I grant that OP classes, items, things, ETC need to be brought back into line, but I've seen well constructed, intelligent & logical arguments go on unheeded and even snubbed by Dev's, but once the "I quit" threads & posts start up en masse "knee-jerk reactions" start which I've seen too many times over too many MMO's for example:
The hunter nerf at the start of WoW 'S WotLK result of knee-jerk = BM & MM smashed everyone had to go SV with Ex-Shot.
The Warrior class at the launch of Rift result of kneel-jerk = out of 6 souls only Paragon Soul with SLi was viable.
SWTOR Smugglers-Scoundrels-Scrappers result of knee-jerk = only Bone saw was left viable.
IMO because of the negetive impact of the "I quit/unsub" it has contributed to ending the days of lasting class choices & consequences and taking the time and effort to L2P and replaced it with FOTM re-rolling & instant gratification face rolling PvP, I don't know maybe I'm just an old MMO Sandboxer dog who doesn't or not happy to want to learn new tricks just my 2 cents n the matter.