I cut my MMO teeth on Dark Age of Camelot about a decade ago, so my opinion is naturally biased(I'm not talking DAoC post TOA in this little rant). I played WoW off and on over the years(have never level capped WoW, just can't bring myself to play that long), played a lot of EvE, and a few other titles for a couple months here and there. But my MMO love will always be DAoC.
It was a different time in MMO gaming then. Community mattered, guilds mattered, and your guild leader was someone who wanted to lead, not just someone who thought they made up a cool sounding name. All that 'end game' crap everyone complains about non-stop? Yeah, your guild/alliance leaders provided that. Loot was something to be shared, not something to be horded and bickered over. And we played in groups, not because the content required it, but because it was fun to get to know other people between pulls. Yes, you had the occasional asshat, but they were blacklisted instead of celebrated.
In short, we played to have fun, to hang with our friends, and kill crap. If you got a cool glowy sword out of the deal: Bonus!
(I remember going on a dragon raid once with my alliance. I had a serise of really bad rolls and won no loot at all. I wasn't upset by it, didn't say a word about it, but the raid leader sent me a whisper and asked if I had gotten anything. I told him I hadn't, but it wasn't a big deal. He said, "Everyone gets something on my raids" and traded me some piece of crap drop that no one would have wanted for anything other than vendor fodder. It was glowy and pretty, but the sword I had was "better". Even though the sword was worth nothing as far as stats or usability, I still remember it years later.)
I'm not saying it was a utopian society or anything. We fought and bickered. Guilds hated each other, guild mates hated each other. You had elitist pricks and nubs like me who wanted to be elitist pricks someday. But, a vast majority of the people you ran into would at least talk to you. Yes, the game itself was buggy and poorly balanced and we bitched and whined about it as well. And if you didn't have a buff bot(a second account used solely for giving yourself buffs), you'd better give your guild cleric/shaman/druid a weekly reach-round.
As much as I miss the social aspects that I find lacking in today's games, I miss not winning the most. Maybe I'm one of those rare video game masochists, but I didn't mind that it took me forever to get my first level 50. I didn't mind having to sit and wait for my mana/heath/endurance to regen after a fight or 2. It gave me time to talk to my guild, to plan events, to buff or heal or (heaven forbid) help that guy next to me having a bitch of a time with a bad pull. I didn't mind that, if I messed up and died, that there was a consequence for it. To me, these things added a sense of realism to a world of swords and magic in which resurrection miracles were a common occurrence.
I mean, If I just swung that giant sword 30 times to kill a Mystical Bunny of Doom, I'd want to sit down before attacking the next one too.
(Oh and speaking of giant swords... For the love of all things holy, give me a sword that is proportionate to my charcater again.)
And I want PvP again, not what passes for PvP. I want a persistent, on going, never ending struggle. I don't want a timed match, or to slaughter my enemies by gaining more points. I want to slaughter my enemies by slaughtering my damned enemies. I don't care if its just me and Bob against 30,000 rampaging trolls. Bob and I will die; horribly, repeatedly, and with great prejudice. But that's ok. Next time I'll bring more friends( and Bob is useless anyway). Until then Bob and I will laugh and boast that it took every last one of those 30,000 tolls to take us down.
Comments
Any reply that I've tried to come up with - does not do the OP justice.
/internet moment of silence
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I'm going to provide the counterpoint. No I'm not doing it to say that you are completely wrong, but just to illustrate that nothing as really changed. And note this is coming from EQ I played Daoc for about a month only.
Communities weren't better, EQ had to implement a play nice policy just because people were such jerks, people talk about the golden community but that policy right there refutes it. People deliberately griefed other guilds/groups on plane runs, preventing them from advancing.
Guilds did not matter more than than they do now. Some were great, looking at you legacy of honor, fantastic guild. Some were just plain crap. Some had great leaders, some were just looking for people to pl them, and be on hand to get them keyed.
Reputation did not matter, despite what people think. Black lists were routinely ignored. People scammed other people, ninja'd loot, their name went around the server for a day but somehow magically they all had great gear that requires dedicated group and raids to get. So obviously the black list was compeletey pointless.
There were no social aspects implented in most of the games (SWG had cantina's thats it). The only thing that made people talk was they had to find a group, and there was a heck of a lot of downtime.
Thats why nothing has changed. The people are the same. Some good, some bad. Some jerks, some nice. Good guild bad guilds. If someone had done a percentage then I would say the percentage was the same today.
depends, EQ was a group intensive game
reputation certainly did matter if you cared about joining pickup groups for doing experience
if you were a loner or had an asshat guild - rep did not matter
it has changed : mmos are less group intensive now and cater to solo players more
EQ2 fan sites
If it mattered then they wouldn't have been able to get the good gear, and yet they did, routinely. So rep couldn't have mattered that much.
And grouping is by far the most common way to level even in WoW.
Bitter much? lol
The EQ community was 100 times more mature and tolerable then WoW's even with the griefing, suggesting anything different is obvious trolling.
you cannot use the dungeon finder until level 15
most players are soloing in WOW - when they are not using the dungeon finder
EQ2 fan sites
Rep mattered mostly for things like Killstealing and ninja-looting or if you sucked and routinely trained your group and others or couldnt play your class. That stuff got around (trainers and ninja-looters were widely shunned and ostracized)
As far as being a jerk it matters about as much as it does in real life. If you are a jerk who isn't dependable or trustworthy and can't get stuff done you will be shunned. But if you are a jerk who is good at what they do than people will tolerate you because at the end of the day people will put up with assholes as long as it helps them accmplish their goals.
It also helped IMMENSELY that voice chat didn't exist until around late 2002 and even then text was the main form of communication well into 2004. Dealing with jerks over text is much much much easier to stomach than some loudmouthed idiot coming in over your speakers.
@Jimmy. I'm not bitter at all. I had a great time in EQ. However it was not a bed of roses, there were just as many jerks (percent wise IMO, obviiously not absolute wise as WoW). I didn't make up the play nice policy, it was implemented because there were a lot of jerks
@nadia. Yes you are right it isn't available till after 15, and when not in the dungeons they do solo. However leveling through the dungeon finder is still the most common way to level. Perhaps they do it because it's the most efficient.
Thats why most people in EQ grouped, it was by far the most efficient. And when you weren't squatting in spot with your group for hours, you were solo.
So again no real difference.
People are acting the same way today as they did back then. Grouping is still encouraged today via better loot, easier grouping and faster xp - just like then.
People are still jerks, and good. Just like then.
I share your sentiments as well, almost every mmo since vanilla WoW has been very very very very forgiving.
I miss struggling to get things done, having a reputation in the online community, keeping relations with the "right people", taking months - years to progress.
I miss everything old school, open pvp, no mounts, not being able to kill things alone, exploration required groups... but doesn't seem like there's any market for that in today's mmo scene.
I play Monster Hunter or Dark/Demon Souls to get my fix or struggling in a game, mmo's haven't done that for me in a long time. Sad thing is I still play almost every big mmo title that comes out -_-...
One thing I miss from older games is a great big quest. Istaria has the adult and ancient dragon quests (which were pretty long), EQ had the epic quests.
What I would like is a single quest that takes months to finish. However it needs to be broken up into lot of 30 minute segments. I don't mind taking a long time to level, or finish things. I just want to feel like I've achieved something in the time that I have.
Your experience may have been diferent than mine. And I completely respect that you have a different view. Yes, there were crap guilds and crap people. And as I admitted, it wasn't a utopian society, but black lists mattered to the majority of the players and guilds I interacted with. The community on the server I played on was smaller, you knew or heard of most of the people online with you. It was hard to be an asshat and get anywhere.
"Good" and "crap" are relitive terms. What I define as good, you may think is crap. I played for the social aspects of the game, aspects I now find severly lacking. It may be that I've changed over th past decade, and what satisfied me then, wouldn't now. But I don't think it's strictly that.
"If it mattered then they wouldn't have been able to get the good gear, and yet they did, routinely. So rep couldn't have mattered that much."
There was no such thing as "good gear", especially early on in DAoC. You had random drops, a few sets, and play crafted. The play crafted was the best thing you could use for a long time, and even someone with a bad rep could make their own.
So Say We All !!!
Great read OP glad i was there and witnessed it, today kids think they know it all been there done that talking as if they own the market since 1950.
But we know...
Time passes and average community's sink deeper and deeper in hate unwillingness to assist another soul.
Loot Loot Loot gimme gimme gimme cursing like no tomorow and the massive amount of frustration and hate comming from this generation is causing a big concern about the future of mmo's.
Worste part is....iam doing it to...its action reaction.
Haha. I know the feeling. I found myself avoiding groups and the like when I play certain games. It just isn't worth the hassle to me.
Now, in games like EvE, where it is highly encouraged to group/guild(corp) for basic survivability, the community within the corps is still somewhat reminiscent of what I used to enjoy. Even if the interactions between coprs is vicious, the social aspects within the corps and the interdependency of players is still one of the things that keeps drawing me back.Yes MMO’s have changed, far more to the worse unfortunately. Getting there used to be more important than top level, now the only reason to level is to be top level.
Hopefully we will see more of you on here, to help us point out to new players what has been lost.
Do you honestly believe your propaganda? You taint OPs sensible opinion.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I noticed huge 1 huge difference between the grouping in WoW and the grouping in DAoC (or EQ1):
In Wow, you join the dungeon finder, get thrown into a group, run an instance where the only 'conversation' is people berating each other, you finish, you quit the group, rinse and repeat.
In DAoC, you 'manually' find a group, you pull, fight, rest. Whilst resting you talk to each other about the weather, politics, the best places to hunt, where to move to next, what tactics to use next time, you pull again, fight, rest, chat some more. In general you stayed with the group for far longer as there was no defined 'end' to the group's purpose.
The rise of questing (even though both EQ and DAoC had quests) and instanced dungeon runs has placed a clearly defined objective to play sessions: this group will run through Dungeon X. The older, more 'grindy' games didn't have that. Sure, you could form a group to run though a dungeon, but as the mobs were constantly respawning even when you reached the 'end' of the dungeon you weren't necessarily 'done'. You could find a good spawn and camp it. Sometimes for hours on end. Because you were having FUN. Or you could just fight your way back out. It wasn't just a case of run through the dungeon and quit the group.
I made a lot of new friends that I met in PuGs in DAoC. PuGs in WoW, almost without fail, broke apart after the current dungeon run and, due to cross server queues, you'd likely never meet those people again. In most modern games health, mana, endurance, whatever all regenerate so quickly there is no down time in which to socialise. Socialising in these newer games is per force something that you do when you're not doing anything else. If you're XPing you don't have time to socialise, to chat, to get to know other people. It's all about getting things done as quickly as possible to reach the 'end game'.
Someone needs to make DAoC 2 now! The time to level, death penalty, 'grind', lack of instances and downtime between fights would prevent most younger players from playing it. So someone that is happy to NOT be a 'WoW killer' has to step up and do it. DAoC must have been, and must continue to be, a profittable game to have lasted as long as it has. Especially now that EA owns it. Sure, it may never had made millions a month, but it must made enough to be worth doing...
I'm convinced DAOC was an anomoly, an almost "perfect storm" of features that fostered social interaction including encouraged group play, forced downtimes, travel times, crafting etc that we've not really seen before or since.
You can't point to EQ1, it wasn't the same, in fact, many DAOC players were EQ1 refugees who left it because it didn't offer what DAOC had.
If you weren't there in the heyday, you can't understand what the game was like, and no, its nothing like that today, it's been "updated" with more modern mechanics that completely changed the experience.
Problem is, those very features many of us enjoyed were abhored by an even larger percentage of the gaming market, they wanted soloing to be more important, fewer limitations, less emphasis on social interaction (they have other tools for that) and even the addition of voice chat changed the landscape forever (and not always for the better).
It is true, grouping was far different back then, there's nothing like the camp grinding experience of those earlier titles, and today's modern audiance would never tolerate those game mechanics. (heck, not even sure I would either)
What the market needs to do is try to experiment with new ways to encourge player interdependence and interaction, with mechanics more palatible to today's marketplace, what worked before won't really hold true today.
Damned if I know that those new mechanics are though, I'm clearly out of touch with the more modern (translation - younger) playerbase so I have no idea what really floats their boat. And even if someone figures it out, will I be able to enjoy it too, or am I just too much of a curmudgeon to relate? Who can say.
I agree, DAOC 2 would be a wonderful thing, just doesn't seem to be anyone left who understood how the magic was made, maybe it really was just a lucky accident that won't be repeated.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
you cant knock daoc..probabally one of the best, if not the best mmo ever made pre toa.
Is the hate and frustration really coming from this generation of gamers, or from the BitterVets?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Reminds of the movie quote:
"No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that today, two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom; so grant me this one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!" -- Conan the Barbarian
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Couldn't agree more with the OP, and Kyleran added more to it..
What server/faction did you play on? I was on Percival/Albion. God, I remember the countless hours and fun times my wife and I had with groups in Lyonesse pulling tree and pygmys spawns. You had to wait to get there because they would only spawn so fast, so only so many groups at a time could do it, so you might way 2 or 3 hours until a spot opened up in a group.
It was a good 8 or so months until I actually got my first set of epic armor at the end of the Paladin quest chain, and it was awesome, because for ME to get it, it required I had at least 24 other people to help. Good friends, a good reputation, and general civility made the experience much easier, and much more enjoyable.
Shrouded Isles I still remember as the singularly best example of an expansion pack done right for an MMO. I don't know what it was about it, but it was perfectly executed IMO.
The crafting took time and dedication. The persistant RVR zones, the persistant battlegrounds.. Just perfect.
Then came Trials of Atlantis... That's when the ball was dropped.
C'est la vie. It was a great experience.. Lightning in a bottle that we'll likely never see again.