Definitely agree with the OP, would be nice if the Wiki table was available in the in game help and as a pop up tutorial at a low level.
A lot of fields initially appear weak until you realise the combo potential. Water and darkness fields can dish out a lot more healing than they would initially seem to once you get people doing combos within them.
But they do have a explaination! Early on at about level 3-6 I think, there is a two sentence long explantion that you can use combo fields as a tip. /sarcasm on: What more do you need to know? If you didn't grasp the system from the tooltip anet gave you, then it is your fault and you are doing it wrong. Combo fields are so easy to use and pure win. Nubs will die because they are bad and can't figure out how to use them. /sarcasm off
I did not know about combo fields until my 5th? alt in GW2. I tend to just close tips as they are generally non-sense like "you can attack by left clicking." (really?) and noticed randomly that when i dropped fire with my torch and threw my axe through it, my axes were on fire. Later rerolling I glance at a tip and there it is, a footnote long bit about a system that is a cornerstone of GW2 combat.
I do not even wish to know how people can say things along the lines of "that is what a wiki is for" when talking about the complete lack of instructions in a game. Maybe an asian game where the explaination was left out in translation but what excuse does anet have for giving this combat feature (which is apparently important to the overall gameplay and combat) a couple lines and never mentioned again?
EDIT: Would also like to point out to people explaining combo system to OP, that he stated the lack of instructions to the system is an issue and not the system itself. Combo fields could use some work but they aren't hard to use at all and people most likely in zergs use them without even being aware they are doing so. The problem is that most don't know (because they were hardly introduced) and so in organized group play, not zergs, they just fall flat.
Definitely agree with the OP, would be nice if the Wiki table was available in the in game help and as a pop up tutorial at a low level.
A lot of fields initially appear weak until you realise the combo potential. Water and darkness fields can dish out a lot more healing than they would initially seem to once you get people doing combos within them.
I did not know about combo fields until my 5th? alt in GW2. I tend to just close tips as they are generally non-sense like "you can attack by left clicking." (really?) and noticed randomly that when i dropped fire with my torch and threw my axe through it, my axes were on fire. Later rerolling I glance at a tip and there it is, a footnote long bit about a system that is a cornerstone of GW2 combo.
You used them all the time naturally though w/o knowing the existed. It's not a thing where "only good players use them" It's hard not to use them.
Definitely agree with the OP, would be nice if the Wiki table was available in the in game help and as a pop up tutorial at a low level.
A lot of fields initially appear weak until you realise the combo potential. Water and darkness fields can dish out a lot more healing than they would initially seem to once you get people doing combos within them.
I did not know about combo fields until my 5th? alt in GW2. I tend to just close tips as they are generally non-sense like "you can attack by left clicking." (really?) and noticed randomly that when i dropped fire with my torch and threw my axe through it, my axes were on fire. Later rerolling I glance at a tip and there it is, a footnote long bit about a system that is a cornerstone of GW2 combo.
You used them all the time naturally though w/o knowing the existed. It's not a thing where "only good players use them" It's hard not to use them.
Yes but as i said in edit, the problem occurs when it isn't just a zergfest anymore and you have to know what you are doing.
Definitely agree with the OP, would be nice if the Wiki table was available in the in game help and as a pop up tutorial at a low level.
A lot of fields initially appear weak until you realise the combo potential. Water and darkness fields can dish out a lot more healing than they would initially seem to once you get people doing combos within them.
I did not know about combo fields until my 5th? alt in GW2. I tend to just close tips as they are generally non-sense like "you can attack by left clicking." (really?) and noticed randomly that when i dropped fire with my torch and threw my axe through it, my axes were on fire. Later rerolling I glance at a tip and there it is, a footnote long bit about a system that is a cornerstone of GW2 combo.
You used them all the time naturally though w/o knowing the existed. It's not a thing where "only good players use them" It's hard not to use them.
Yes but as i said in edit, the problem occurs when it isn't just a zergfest anymore and you have to know what you are doing.
I see the edit now. We agree for the most part.
Look at a 5 man example. 5 people lay down AoE then Dps into it. There will be 3-5 debuffs up on the mob w/o trying. 5 people stand in friendly AoE there will be 3-5 buffs naturally.
It almost feels unfinished. If they would take the extra step to make your 5 whirl finishers (warrior) have different active effects. As it stands now if you whirl in combo field A you are going to do Y no matter which whirl ability you use.
If thats your answer you might want to re-read my post.
for one i myself dont have problems with combos(but then again i followed this game and details for quite some time) but i do see that they go unused by most players in the game outside of the obvious accidental use. I keep telling people about it everyday i play mostly in spvp , their response ususally is "owh thats cool" but thats it i do not even see them to try and use it so the "thats cool" basically translates to a "whatever, gimmick" There is simply no emphasis made on it in the game. << the point
Im also getting a bit tired telling people about it and trying to convince people to use it who are on my team. I could care less wether they use it or not in PvE.
This is not a fps game where you get a gun and simply start using it for obvious reasons. People are not used to seeing it in MMORPG's and so far most only seem to regard it has a proc.
My answer being that they are easy to perform, easy to discover and clearly marked as existing in the tool tips of the skills that every single player uses every time they go into combat? If people think additional area heals, might stacks et al are gimmicks.. yeah that's not a dev team issue.
At some point you do realise that the onus lies on the player to actually work out whether something is important or not. If you are telling people and then they are still not using it, they are just bad players. No amount of "Do combos!!!" is going to change that fact.
I gave up trying to explain basic stuff in pugs long ago, after you see people hammering on tanks and ignoring priority targets, fail to protect healers, fail to use assist/guard, you just stop running pugs. If you (generalized not aimed at you) are having to constantly explain to your team then either you are in a pug (and shouldn't be surprised) or you are simply in a bad team, c'est la vie.
If people read their tool tips they can see there are combos. If people are ever fighting with other players they will see combos go off. They know combos are there. They will also see the effects these combos have, what extra emphasis do people need?
You read about them, no problem. I looked at my tooltips and tried them out from the get go (followed by pretty much just running an ELE as a combo machine), no problem. So the issue then might, just might be with some of the players.
Perhaps combos are part of what is meant to separate a good pvp team from a bad one? Or at least their significance is something that is meant to be learned by the player.
Maybe adding some further information might make a difference which is why I've said perhaps they could add some info earlier. BUT I really can't see the issue with it as it stands at the moment and feel you will still get the majority NOT using combos most of the time and still just hammering away.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
How many can pinpoint exactly what Dark, Ethereal, Fire, Ice, Light, Lightning, Poison, Smoke, Water (NINE) combo starters do? And that each has at least two different types of effect depending on your class and the skill/weapon you use....
So far I haven't seen anyone use this feature besides randomly.
Haphazardly? It takes less than 5 minutes to run through any personal combos you can do (once you have your weapons skills ofc), you can do it rather systematically.
In a group or near other people? See a field? Press a combo finisher and note what happens.
That is not haphazard, that is experimentation and it is neither difficult or really time consuming in this case but it does give the player something to explore without the need for spoon feeding them absolutely everything.
If you haven't seen anyone using combos other than randomly them either you have been incredibly unlucky and have been grouped/near the worst players on earth, or you are simply not noticing it (which is the one I am going to go for here). I rotated combos all the time on my ELE in groups and I have noticed loads of people setting up repeat combos when I've been finishing them on my WAR and that is talking about the usual zerg DE's, not more structured pvp/dungeons where they occur far more often.
I'm not against them putting in a list (already a wiki after all), but I really can't see what is so hard about it at the moment.
Oh why did I bother? I'm so so sorry. The game is absolutely perfect. Everything is clear as day and everyone is playing to the best of their abilities. I hardly see anybody dying like noobs. People know exactly which skills to use to save the day as well.
Yep, nothing for me to see here, moving on. Enjoy.
He doesn't understand and it doesn't appear he wants to understand, NBlitz.
I agree that, while the system is easy to use (shoot, leap or blast in or through a white circle), it's not at all intuitive and there's very little feedback as to what the combo was or what the results were. I'm hoping they add more info ingame.
As an engineer, I just try to shoot mobs in or on the other side of a wall or aoe spell. On some I can tell something happened - split hearts that say burning, condition or poison - but on others I really am not sure what the effect is other than sometimes a visual change in the projectile or blast. For example, when one of my turrets is getting low on health, I'll wait until there's a player aoe circle cast around it before blowing it up because I know that will give a buff or regen to the group if I do.
It took a a bit before I realized thast when the sites were talking about a 'finisher' it just meant "second half of the pair" and not that it had to be the finishing shot on the mob.
Great system, virtually non-existent dissemination of information on it and nothing really in game other than a quick brief message when your first combo happens.
"There is simply no emphasis made on it in the game. << the point" -Xten
Exactly. Xten, your part about players perceiving it as a proc or, worse, a gimmick seems about right. It doesn't seem really communicated how these can really help in PvE and how they can prove to offer game-changing differences in PvP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
He doesn't understand and it doesn't appear he wants to understand, NBlitz.
I see the viewpoint being put forward and I disagree with it. There is something of a difference between that and "not wanting to understand", but nevermind.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You can utilise combo fields by yourself, but many professions either have lots of combo finishers (Warriors) or lots of combo field-creating skills (Necro). Basically, you create a field and use a finisher inside it or through it. For example, a Warrior could ignite the ground with his adrenal longbow skill, switch to 1h sword and use its skill #2 to leap through it and set the foes on fire.
It's a pretty simple system, but I suppose having a list of combo fields in-game wouldn't hurt. On the other hand, the official wiki exists for a reason.
To me, it's reason is as an alternative viable source of information. I shouldn't feel forced to browse online for information that should be readily available in-game.
E.g. I tried looking for info on something a day or two ago, via the Help function, but the info I was looking for wasn't there.
It should not be in game. Part of MMOs is learning the environmental rules. How raids work. How mobs work. How skills work together. How different builds work. And we do this through the scientific process because we have developed the scientific habits of mind. Otherwise known as SCIENTIFIC THINKING.
That's what 'theory crafters' are doing. That's what these guys who learn raids are doing. The help funciton is just a 'magic box' for those who can't think. And I, for one, and glad it's not there. And hasn't been there in virtually every MMO I've ever played.
How many can pinpoint exactly what Dark, Ethereal, Fire, Ice, Light, Lightning, Poison, Smoke, Water (NINE) combo starters do? And that each has at least two different types of effect depending on your class and the skill/weapon you use....
So far I haven't seen anyone use this feature besides randomly.
Haphazardly? It takes less than 5 minutes to run through any personal combos you can do (once you have your weapons skills ofc), you can do it rather systematically.
In a group or near other people? See a field? Press a combo finisher and note what happens.
That is not haphazard, that is experimentation and it is neither difficult or really time consuming in this case but it does give the player something to explore without the need for spoon feeding them absolutely everything.
If you haven't seen anyone using combos other than randomly them either you have been incredibly unlucky and have been grouped/near the worst players on earth, or you are simply not noticing it (which is the one I am going to go for here). I rotated combos all the time on my ELE in groups and I have noticed loads of people setting up repeat combos when I've been finishing them on my WAR and that is talking about the usual zerg DE's, not more structured pvp/dungeons where they occur far more often.
I'm not against them putting in a list (already a wiki after all), but I really can't see what is so hard about it at the moment.
Oh why did I bother? I'm so so sorry. The game is absolutely perfect. Everything is clear as day and everyone is playing to the best of their abilities. I hardly see anybody dying like noobs. People know exactly which skills to use to save the day as well.
Yep, nothing for me to see here, moving on. Enjoy.
So, sarcasm because you were demolished?
He's right you know. MMOs are about thinking and experimenting via the scientific process. Just like he described.
No game gives you the solution to a raid. You have to learn it yourself or from those who have learned it before you. NO game gives you the optimal build for your skill-based character, you have to learn it yourself or from those who learned it before you.
This game has combo-fields. You have those who use put in the effort and, therefore, know how to utilize the combo fields. And you have those that refuse to think, experiment or even try.
Let's look at the elementalist. With scepter/dagger you build self-combos in fire that increase might. You can stack 10. The necromancer can stack weakness and poison combos and just waste things. The guardian has a self-combo with the greatsword. And all classes have self-combos.
But the best ones are for parties. You have a field. You have a finisher. The two together do something.
Dark + Blast = AOE Blindness
Fire + Leap = Fire Armor
Ice + Projectile = Chilled
And so on. All discovered by players who sat down there and worked it out by thinking about it and getting off their butts and doing something instead of complaining about it and doing nothing.
This game has combo-fields. You have those who use put in the effort and, therefore, know how to utilize the combo fields.
Let's look at the elementalist. With scepter/dagger you build self-combos in fire that increase might. You can stack 10. The necromancer can stack weakness and poison combos and just waste things. The guardian has a self-combo with the greatsword. And all classes have self-combos.
But the best ones are for parties. You have a field. You have a finisher. The two together do something.
Dark + Blast = AOE Blindness
Fire + Leap = Fire Armor
Ice + Projectile = Chilled
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
Looking at it helps.
GW2 has to have the most agressive, rude and ignorant community or maybe just vocal minority.
To answer the question (without making it sound like I'm a superior being compared to you) like the combo system itself you just have to know what is what basically. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a nice pop up that comes by when you step into a field of x type or one that lists types of fields near by. It surely would make the system a lot more visually appealing but in short the system is best summed up as follows: Throw all your ranged spells through circles on the ground and stand in circles if you are using melee abilities. Knowing what does what is basically purely off your own exp or looking it up. There isn't a solid source of information about how fields work in the entire game. Which is the problem the OP stated. Which everyone that loves GW2 seems to be ignoring. Which is why GW2 topics about valid issues always go nowhere.
This game has combo-fields. You have those who use put in the effort and, therefore, know how to utilize the combo fields.
Let's look at the elementalist. With scepter/dagger you build self-combos in fire that increase might. You can stack 10. The necromancer can stack weakness and poison combos and just waste things. The guardian has a self-combo with the greatsword. And all classes have self-combos.
But the best ones are for parties. You have a field. You have a finisher. The two together do something.
Dark + Blast = AOE Blindness
Fire + Leap = Fire Armor
Ice + Projectile = Chilled
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
The visual effects are really clear indicators, with possibly water and light having some confusion in very intense fights. Otherwise, they look pretty much how you think they should look. Poison is green swirly crap, fire is well fiery, water looks like a big puddle, where light typically has weird looking runes. Fire patches from Elementalists or Warriors will look somewhat different from a fire patch from a Guardian given that the Guardian's fire is blueish white, but still has a fairly obvious fiery effect to it.
I think this was the intention. Learn the combo fields yourself. If everyone knew about them then they wouldn't be as special and strategies would be a lot harder to form as everyone will probably share your strat. The 'hard core' pvpers will likely learn as many combo fields as they can and utilize them in sPvP.
This game has combo-fields. You have those who use put in the effort and, therefore, know how to utilize the combo fields.
Let's look at the elementalist. With scepter/dagger you build self-combos in fire that increase might. You can stack 10. The necromancer can stack weakness and poison combos and just waste things. The guardian has a self-combo with the greatsword. And all classes have self-combos.
But the best ones are for parties. You have a field. You have a finisher. The two together do something.
Dark + Blast = AOE Blindness
Fire + Leap = Fire Armor
Ice + Projectile = Chilled
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
More or less by the effect. 'Ice" is ice. Fire are fire. The lightning is a big lightning storm... Dark comes from those necromancer circles you see on the ground like "Well of Darkness," "Well of Corruption."
ICE is FROZEN GROUND which is a water elementalist spell used primarily for crowd control. Projectile can be from a gun or bow that says the attack is a 'projectile' finisher.
The spells is really 'weak' in its dps, so rather than attack the enemeies with it, the elementalist drops this spell on the ranged players so they automatically fire through it at what ever target they're attacking which gives a (potentially) broader field of fire against large groups. Their arrows/bullets being fired with the "projectile' finisher (which includes the longbow auto-attack) then have the chill effect (huge movement penalty) and they can really slow down a group.
Rangers can self-proc this same effect with Frost-Trap, dodge back then fire through the field when it triggers. Not terribly easy to do but with practice you can use frost trap and fire trap to self-combo with your ranger. That's why you often see my ranger running through groups of mobs dropping traps and using a greatsword to melee. People think I'm an idiot, but I'm setting up combo fields for others to use while I use my great sword for DPS. That they're not smart enough to understand what I'm doing, doesn't make me the idiot...
If you have the Arcane Wave cantrip (which I do) you can drop the frozen ground spell on yourself and then hit arcane wave and get frost armor instead which chills opponents that hit you. Really helpful when your heal is on cooldown and things are tight...
All of this I figured out on my own. Some by experimentation. Others by luck + observation. No help from anyone. I also figured out that if I shot through a fire wall that also made a combo finisher. Which I thought was terribly obvious... Where the trap things... Not so much...
GW2 has to have the most agressive, rude and ignorant community or maybe just vocal minority.
To answer the question (without making it sound like I'm a superior being compared to you) like the combo system itself you just have to know what is what basically. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a nice pop up that comes by when you step into a field of x type or one that lists types of fields near by. It surely would make the system a lot more visually appealing but in short the system is best summed up as follows: Throw all your ranged spells through circles on the ground and stand in circles if you are using melee abilities. Knowing what does what is basically purely off your own exp or looking it up. There isn't a solid source of information about how fields work in the entire game. Which is the problem the OP stated. Which everyone that loves GW2 seems to be ignoring. Which is why GW2 topics about valid issues always go nowhere.
It was a legitimate answer so save the white knighting for when it is actually warranted.
And yes, looking at it helps.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
Looking at it helps.
GW2 has to have the most agressive, rude and ignorant community or maybe just vocal minority.
To answer the question (without making it sound like I'm a superior being compared to you) like the combo system itself you just have to know what is what basically. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a nice pop up that comes by when you step into a field of x type or one that lists types of fields near by. It surely would make the system a lot more visually appealing but in short the system is best summed up as follows: Throw all your ranged spells through circles on the ground and stand in circles if you are using melee abilities. Knowing what does what is basically purely off your own exp or looking it up. There isn't a solid source of information about how fields work in the entire game. Which is the problem the OP stated. Which everyone that loves GW2 seems to be ignoring. Which is why GW2 topics about valid issues always go nowhere.
It's the actual answer. You look at the field. Ice is ice. Fire is fire. Lightning is lighting. Arcane is arcane (purple if you don't know that).
Originally posted by TheIronLegion I think this was the intention. Learn the combo fields yourself. If everyone knew about them then they wouldn't be as special and strategies would be a lot harder to form as everyone will probably share your strat. The 'hard core' pvpers will likely learn as many combo fields as they can and utilize them in sPvP.
That's how I think about it. But it's not just hardcore PvP. They're great help in dungeons and PvE. Knowing your self-combos as an elementalist and putting 10 stacks of might on yourself is very helpful since they're not a spike-dps class.
I dual-dagger a LOT. I build might when ever I can. I build might when I kill foes because that's the gear I make/modify. But I also build might through my skills.
Burning speed to attack. That's the field. Arcane Wave, that's the finisher. +3 Might
Burning speed to attack. F4. Magnetic Wave is the finisher. +3 Might.
Burning speed to attack. F4. Earthquake is the finisher. (Followed by skill 5 -- churning earth -- since they're knocked down.) +3 might.
I watch people whine about the elementalist profession. Learn to play. This class rocks when you know how to self-combo and build might.
And for God's sake -- MOVE. This isn't your DnD stand-around and drop fire-balls mage. This class is built to move constantly. Like a hot knife in the hands of a hyper-active bunny.
One really needs to observe in GW2, more than any other game I have played so far. if one is using AoE skills, one needs to make sure mobs around you are not aggroed, because if they take damage, they will aggro. They will also aggro if near from a patrol. In Rift, unless you were in a higher lvl area, this never occurred.
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
Looking at it helps.
GW2 has to have the most agressive, rude and ignorant community or maybe just vocal minority.
To answer the question (without making it sound like I'm a superior being compared to you) like the combo system itself you just have to know what is what basically. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a nice pop up that comes by when you step into a field of x type or one that lists types of fields near by. It surely would make the system a lot more visually appealing but in short the system is best summed up as follows: Throw all your ranged spells through circles on the ground and stand in circles if you are using melee abilities. Knowing what does what is basically purely off your own exp or looking it up. There isn't a solid source of information about how fields work in the entire game. Which is the problem the OP stated. Which everyone that loves GW2 seems to be ignoring. Which is why GW2 topics about valid issues always go nowhere.
It's the actual answer. You look at the field. Ice is ice. Fire is fire. Lightning is lighting. Arcane is arcane (purple if you don't know that).
There is, really, no 'non-condescending' answer.
Actually there are plenty of non-condescending answers that were given.
I think that some are forgetting their personal familiarity with the system and assuming others know the same. For example,
Dark comes from those necromancer circles you see on the ground like "Well of Darkness," "Well of Corruption." - MosesZD
That was actually great information. I now know those green things aren't poison and aren't just traps, they're dark, and they constitute as debuff circles for the purpose of combos. Now the answer to that from some might be "zomg what a noob doesnt know necro spells l2p much?" Great stance for hardcore gamers flexing their ePeen, not so great for a developer making not only a casual game, but a casual game with cool game-changing features that there is both confusion and lack of awareness about.
See fire looks like fire unless it's guardian fire because that's blue like ice... and water. And dark looks like darkness unless it's green like poison, but definitely discernable from arcane which is the color of arcane - which is purple but not the purple of the dark spells that aren't green like poison.
That's a bit of an exaggeration but I hope it brings about the point that the system is rather convoluted to try to learn on the fly in game during the heat of combat. No one is saying it's a bad system, just that there should be the option for more in-game information about it as none currently exists.
It's a great system, but it definitely needs either better feedback for the player or a decent tutorial.
Thanks for the great replies all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually there are plenty of non-condescending answers that were given.
I think that some are forgetting their personal familiarity with the system and assuming others know the same. For example,
Dark comes from those necromancer circles you see on the ground like "Well of Darkness," "Well of Corruption." - MosesZD
That was actually great information. I now know those green things aren't poison and aren't just traps, they're dark, and they constitute as debuff circles for the purpose of combos. Now the answer to that from some might be "zomg what a noob doesnt know necro spells l2p much?" Great stance for hardcore gamers flexing their ePeen, not so great for a developer making not only a casual game, but a casual game with cool game-changing features that there is both confusion and lack of awareness about.
See fire looks like fire unless it's guardian fire because that's blue like ice... and water. And dark looks like darkness unless it's green like poison, but definitely discernable from arcane which is the color of arcane - which is purple but not the purple of the dark spells that aren't green like poison.
That's a bit of an exaggeration but I hope it brings about the point that the system is rather convoluted to try to learn on the fly in game during the heat of combat. No one is saying it's a bad system, just that there should be the option for more in-game information about it as none currently exists.
It's a great system, but it definitely needs either better feedback for the player or a decent tutorial.
Thanks for the great replies all.
Nice response, and I do apologise if my answer seemed a bit arsey. It wasn't intended that way.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
Looking at it helps.
GW2 has to have the most agressive, rude and ignorant community or maybe just vocal minority.
To answer the question (without making it sound like I'm a superior being compared to you) like the combo system itself you just have to know what is what basically. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a nice pop up that comes by when you step into a field of x type or one that lists types of fields near by. It surely would make the system a lot more visually appealing but in short the system is best summed up as follows: Throw all your ranged spells through circles on the ground and stand in circles if you are using melee abilities. Knowing what does what is basically purely off your own exp or looking it up. There isn't a solid source of information about how fields work in the entire game. Which is the problem the OP stated. Which everyone that loves GW2 seems to be ignoring. Which is why GW2 topics about valid issues always go nowhere.
It's the actual answer. You look at the field. Ice is ice. Fire is fire. Lightning is lighting. Arcane is arcane (purple if you don't know that).
There is, really, no 'non-condescending' answer.
Actually there are plenty of non-condescending answers that were given.
I think that some are forgetting their personal familiarity with the system and assuming others know the same. For example,
Dark comes from those necromancer circles you see on the ground like "Well of Darkness," "Well of Corruption." - MosesZD
That was actually great information. I now know those green things aren't poison and aren't just traps, they're dark, and they constitute as debuff circles for the purpose of combos. Now the answer to that from some might be "zomg what a noob doesnt know necro spells l2p much?" Great stance for hardcore gamers flexing their ePeen, not so great for a developer making not only a casual game, but a casual game with cool game-changing features that there is both confusion and lack of awareness about.
See fire looks like fire unless it's guardian fire because that's blue like ice... and water. And dark looks like darkness unless it's green like poison, but definitely discernable from arcane which is the color of arcane - which is purple but not the purple of the dark spells that aren't green like poison.
That's a bit of an exaggeration but I hope it brings about the point that the system is rather convoluted to try to learn on the fly in game during the heat of combat. No one is saying it's a bad system, just that there should be the option for more in-game information about it as none currently exists.
It's a great system, but it definitely needs either better feedback for the player or a decent tutorial.
Thanks for the great replies all.
While I agree with you. I also see where bunnyhopper was coming from. You really can just 'look' at them and see what they are. Arenanet did a very good job of making obvious things, well, obvious.
Oh why did I bother? I'm so so sorry. The game is absolutely perfect. Everything is clear as day and everyone is playing to the best of their abilities. I hardly see anybody dying like noobs. People know exactly which skills to use to save the day as well.
Yep, nothing for me to see here, moving on. Enjoy.
Good counter point there...
The game is soo very far from perfect and I am far from a fanboy protector if it. I just fail to see the issue with this system and I have laid out my reasons why.
Your tooltips tell you they are there, you see them in action all the time, how about exploring the system yourself through gameplay? As soon as you see the benefits, "hmm that's good I'll do it some more".
People die like noobs in every game.
There is a difference between hand-holding and good game design. Watch ego-raptors sequilitis video on mega man x, and you'll understand what I'm saying here.
We aren't asking for a a straight up npc or giant window to pop up giving an in depth explanation of combo fields. We are asking for a better introduction to it than a tool-tip.
For example, if arenanet implemented a really hard personal storyline quest where, say, a boss had an increible weakness to a special kind of poison your npc buddy could throw in bottles, they could introduce the mechanic in an indirect way that encourages exploration of the mechanic. Your friend doesn't need to say, "try shooting through the cloud!' In fact, it would be much more satisfying if he was more negative. "I can't hit him with my poison bottles! He's too fast!". Suddenly, there is a poison cloud on the floor. Player accidently shoots through it, hitting the boss with the poison! "Wow! That was incredible!", says the NPC, congradulating you in your freak accident and exploration of game mechanics. There. Combo fields are introduced in-game as a significant mechanic. Then, the new player has the ability to explore combo fields and try and discover his own with other players.
The issue is that this kind of tutorial don't exist at all. In fact, most of this game lacks any real fluid tutorial. It sort of exists in sPvP with rolling and underwater combat, but most of the game seems very lacking in explanation.
It's not that I'm too stupid to figure it out, it's just that when a game relies on a wiki to help a player understand some fundemental mechanics of a game, it's a sign of poor game design. It makes it so the game is more frustrating than fun to newer players, making them want to quit the game instead of continue.
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But they do have a explaination! Early on at about level 3-6 I think, there is a two sentence long explantion that you can use combo fields as a tip. /sarcasm on: What more do you need to know? If you didn't grasp the system from the tooltip anet gave you, then it is your fault and you are doing it wrong. Combo fields are so easy to use and pure win. Nubs will die because they are bad and can't figure out how to use them. /sarcasm off
I did not know about combo fields until my 5th? alt in GW2. I tend to just close tips as they are generally non-sense like "you can attack by left clicking." (really?) and noticed randomly that when i dropped fire with my torch and threw my axe through it, my axes were on fire. Later rerolling I glance at a tip and there it is, a footnote long bit about a system that is a cornerstone of GW2 combat.
I do not even wish to know how people can say things along the lines of "that is what a wiki is for" when talking about the complete lack of instructions in a game. Maybe an asian game where the explaination was left out in translation but what excuse does anet have for giving this combat feature (which is apparently important to the overall gameplay and combat) a couple lines and never mentioned again?
EDIT: Would also like to point out to people explaining combo system to OP, that he stated the lack of instructions to the system is an issue and not the system itself. Combo fields could use some work but they aren't hard to use at all and people most likely in zergs use them without even being aware they are doing so. The problem is that most don't know (because they were hardly introduced) and so in organized group play, not zergs, they just fall flat.
You used them all the time naturally though w/o knowing the existed. It's not a thing where "only good players use them" It's hard not to use them.
Yes but as i said in edit, the problem occurs when it isn't just a zergfest anymore and you have to know what you are doing.
I see the edit now. We agree for the most part.
Look at a 5 man example. 5 people lay down AoE then Dps into it. There will be 3-5 debuffs up on the mob w/o trying. 5 people stand in friendly AoE there will be 3-5 buffs naturally.
It almost feels unfinished. If they would take the extra step to make your 5 whirl finishers (warrior) have different active effects. As it stands now if you whirl in combo field A you are going to do Y no matter which whirl ability you use.
My answer being that they are easy to perform, easy to discover and clearly marked as existing in the tool tips of the skills that every single player uses every time they go into combat? If people think additional area heals, might stacks et al are gimmicks.. yeah that's not a dev team issue.
At some point you do realise that the onus lies on the player to actually work out whether something is important or not. If you are telling people and then they are still not using it, they are just bad players. No amount of "Do combos!!!" is going to change that fact.
I gave up trying to explain basic stuff in pugs long ago, after you see people hammering on tanks and ignoring priority targets, fail to protect healers, fail to use assist/guard, you just stop running pugs. If you (generalized not aimed at you) are having to constantly explain to your team then either you are in a pug (and shouldn't be surprised) or you are simply in a bad team, c'est la vie.
If people read their tool tips they can see there are combos. If people are ever fighting with other players they will see combos go off. They know combos are there. They will also see the effects these combos have, what extra emphasis do people need?
You read about them, no problem. I looked at my tooltips and tried them out from the get go (followed by pretty much just running an ELE as a combo machine), no problem. So the issue then might, just might be with some of the players.
Perhaps combos are part of what is meant to separate a good pvp team from a bad one? Or at least their significance is something that is meant to be learned by the player.
Maybe adding some further information might make a difference which is why I've said perhaps they could add some info earlier. BUT I really can't see the issue with it as it stands at the moment and feel you will still get the majority NOT using combos most of the time and still just hammering away.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
He doesn't understand and it doesn't appear he wants to understand, NBlitz.
I agree that, while the system is easy to use (shoot, leap or blast in or through a white circle), it's not at all intuitive and there's very little feedback as to what the combo was or what the results were. I'm hoping they add more info ingame.
As an engineer, I just try to shoot mobs in or on the other side of a wall or aoe spell. On some I can tell something happened - split hearts that say burning, condition or poison - but on others I really am not sure what the effect is other than sometimes a visual change in the projectile or blast. For example, when one of my turrets is getting low on health, I'll wait until there's a player aoe circle cast around it before blowing it up because I know that will give a buff or regen to the group if I do.
It took a a bit before I realized thast when the sites were talking about a 'finisher' it just meant "second half of the pair" and not that it had to be the finishing shot on the mob.
Great system, virtually non-existent dissemination of information on it and nothing really in game other than a quick brief message when your first combo happens.
"There is simply no emphasis made on it in the game. << the point" -Xten
Exactly. Xten, your part about players perceiving it as a proc or, worse, a gimmick seems about right. It doesn't seem really communicated how these can really help in PvE and how they can prove to offer game-changing differences in PvP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I see the viewpoint being put forward and I disagree with it. There is something of a difference between that and "not wanting to understand", but nevermind.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It should not be in game. Part of MMOs is learning the environmental rules. How raids work. How mobs work. How skills work together. How different builds work. And we do this through the scientific process because we have developed the scientific habits of mind. Otherwise known as SCIENTIFIC THINKING.
That's what 'theory crafters' are doing. That's what these guys who learn raids are doing. The help funciton is just a 'magic box' for those who can't think. And I, for one, and glad it's not there. And hasn't been there in virtually every MMO I've ever played.
So, sarcasm because you were demolished?
He's right you know. MMOs are about thinking and experimenting via the scientific process. Just like he described.
No game gives you the solution to a raid. You have to learn it yourself or from those who have learned it before you. NO game gives you the optimal build for your skill-based character, you have to learn it yourself or from those who learned it before you.
This game has combo-fields. You have those who use put in the effort and, therefore, know how to utilize the combo fields. And you have those that refuse to think, experiment or even try.
Let's look at the elementalist. With scepter/dagger you build self-combos in fire that increase might. You can stack 10. The necromancer can stack weakness and poison combos and just waste things. The guardian has a self-combo with the greatsword. And all classes have self-combos.
But the best ones are for parties. You have a field. You have a finisher. The two together do something.
Dark + Blast = AOE Blindness
Fire + Leap = Fire Armor
Ice + Projectile = Chilled
And so on. All discovered by players who sat down there and worked it out by thinking about it and getting off their butts and doing something instead of complaining about it and doing nothing.
I found a good bit of your post rather helpful. Jotted down those combinations to try out later today.
Question: How do I tell what element/type the circle is?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Looking at it helps.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
GW2 has to have the most agressive, rude and ignorant community or maybe just vocal minority.
To answer the question (without making it sound like I'm a superior being compared to you) like the combo system itself you just have to know what is what basically. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a nice pop up that comes by when you step into a field of x type or one that lists types of fields near by. It surely would make the system a lot more visually appealing but in short the system is best summed up as follows: Throw all your ranged spells through circles on the ground and stand in circles if you are using melee abilities. Knowing what does what is basically purely off your own exp or looking it up. There isn't a solid source of information about how fields work in the entire game. Which is the problem the OP stated. Which everyone that loves GW2 seems to be ignoring. Which is why GW2 topics about valid issues always go nowhere.
The visual effects are really clear indicators, with possibly water and light having some confusion in very intense fights. Otherwise, they look pretty much how you think they should look. Poison is green swirly crap, fire is well fiery, water looks like a big puddle, where light typically has weird looking runes. Fire patches from Elementalists or Warriors will look somewhat different from a fire patch from a Guardian given that the Guardian's fire is blueish white, but still has a fairly obvious fiery effect to it.
This is actually a pretty decent quick reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrzwFP1vCag
first, people complain that there isn't everything explained in "a game", and WAY too hard.
then, people complain that everything is explained in "a game", and waaahaaaay too easy.
^^
example: wow (since wow IS the rule...)
a) "it's so hard to find raids, we need some kind of raid finder to help us find groups easier!"
b) "it got so easy to raid lately, everyone can raid without the slightest clue of management or skil!"
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
More or less by the effect. 'Ice" is ice. Fire are fire. The lightning is a big lightning storm... Dark comes from those necromancer circles you see on the ground like "Well of Darkness," "Well of Corruption."
ICE is FROZEN GROUND which is a water elementalist spell used primarily for crowd control. Projectile can be from a gun or bow that says the attack is a 'projectile' finisher.
The spells is really 'weak' in its dps, so rather than attack the enemeies with it, the elementalist drops this spell on the ranged players so they automatically fire through it at what ever target they're attacking which gives a (potentially) broader field of fire against large groups. Their arrows/bullets being fired with the "projectile' finisher (which includes the longbow auto-attack) then have the chill effect (huge movement penalty) and they can really slow down a group.
Rangers can self-proc this same effect with Frost-Trap, dodge back then fire through the field when it triggers. Not terribly easy to do but with practice you can use frost trap and fire trap to self-combo with your ranger. That's why you often see my ranger running through groups of mobs dropping traps and using a greatsword to melee. People think I'm an idiot, but I'm setting up combo fields for others to use while I use my great sword for DPS. That they're not smart enough to understand what I'm doing, doesn't make me the idiot...
If you have the Arcane Wave cantrip (which I do) you can drop the frozen ground spell on yourself and then hit arcane wave and get frost armor instead which chills opponents that hit you. Really helpful when your heal is on cooldown and things are tight...
All of this I figured out on my own. Some by experimentation. Others by luck + observation. No help from anyone. I also figured out that if I shot through a fire wall that also made a combo finisher. Which I thought was terribly obvious... Where the trap things... Not so much...
It was a legitimate answer so save the white knighting for when it is actually warranted.
And yes, looking at it helps.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It's the actual answer. You look at the field. Ice is ice. Fire is fire. Lightning is lighting. Arcane is arcane (purple if you don't know that).
There is, really, no 'non-condescending' answer.
That's how I think about it. But it's not just hardcore PvP. They're great help in dungeons and PvE. Knowing your self-combos as an elementalist and putting 10 stacks of might on yourself is very helpful since they're not a spike-dps class.
I dual-dagger a LOT. I build might when ever I can. I build might when I kill foes because that's the gear I make/modify. But I also build might through my skills.
Burning speed to attack. That's the field. Arcane Wave, that's the finisher. +3 Might
Burning speed to attack. F4. Magnetic Wave is the finisher. +3 Might.
Burning speed to attack. F4. Earthquake is the finisher. (Followed by skill 5 -- churning earth -- since they're knocked down.) +3 might.
I watch people whine about the elementalist profession. Learn to play. This class rocks when you know how to self-combo and build might.
And for God's sake -- MOVE. This isn't your DnD stand-around and drop fire-balls mage. This class is built to move constantly. Like a hot knife in the hands of a hyper-active bunny.
One really needs to observe in GW2, more than any other game I have played so far. if one is using AoE skills, one needs to make sure mobs around you are not aggroed, because if they take damage, they will aggro. They will also aggro if near from a patrol. In Rift, unless you were in a higher lvl area, this never occurred.
Actually there are plenty of non-condescending answers that were given.
I think that some are forgetting their personal familiarity with the system and assuming others know the same. For example,
Dark comes from those necromancer circles you see on the ground like "Well of Darkness," "Well of Corruption." - MosesZD
That was actually great information. I now know those green things aren't poison and aren't just traps, they're dark, and they constitute as debuff circles for the purpose of combos. Now the answer to that from some might be "zomg what a noob doesnt know necro spells l2p much?" Great stance for hardcore gamers flexing their ePeen, not so great for a developer making not only a casual game, but a casual game with cool game-changing features that there is both confusion and lack of awareness about.
See fire looks like fire unless it's guardian fire because that's blue like ice... and water. And dark looks like darkness unless it's green like poison, but definitely discernable from arcane which is the color of arcane - which is purple but not the purple of the dark spells that aren't green like poison.
That's a bit of an exaggeration but I hope it brings about the point that the system is rather convoluted to try to learn on the fly in game during the heat of combat. No one is saying it's a bad system, just that there should be the option for more in-game information about it as none currently exists.
It's a great system, but it definitely needs either better feedback for the player or a decent tutorial.
Thanks for the great replies all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nice response, and I do apologise if my answer seemed a bit arsey. It wasn't intended that way.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
While I agree with you. I also see where bunnyhopper was coming from. You really can just 'look' at them and see what they are. Arenanet did a very good job of making obvious things, well, obvious.
There is a difference between hand-holding and good game design. Watch ego-raptors sequilitis video on mega man x, and you'll understand what I'm saying here.
We aren't asking for a a straight up npc or giant window to pop up giving an in depth explanation of combo fields. We are asking for a better introduction to it than a tool-tip.
For example, if arenanet implemented a really hard personal storyline quest where, say, a boss had an increible weakness to a special kind of poison your npc buddy could throw in bottles, they could introduce the mechanic in an indirect way that encourages exploration of the mechanic. Your friend doesn't need to say, "try shooting through the cloud!' In fact, it would be much more satisfying if he was more negative. "I can't hit him with my poison bottles! He's too fast!". Suddenly, there is a poison cloud on the floor. Player accidently shoots through it, hitting the boss with the poison! "Wow! That was incredible!", says the NPC, congradulating you in your freak accident and exploration of game mechanics. There. Combo fields are introduced in-game as a significant mechanic. Then, the new player has the ability to explore combo fields and try and discover his own with other players.
The issue is that this kind of tutorial don't exist at all. In fact, most of this game lacks any real fluid tutorial. It sort of exists in sPvP with rolling and underwater combat, but most of the game seems very lacking in explanation.
It's not that I'm too stupid to figure it out, it's just that when a game relies on a wiki to help a player understand some fundemental mechanics of a game, it's a sign of poor game design. It makes it so the game is more frustrating than fun to newer players, making them want to quit the game instead of continue.