Its an interesting take the fanbois have taken on this argument. The game clearly lacks a meaningful endgame. All of a sudden this is the only mmorpg where its OK to not have a meaningful endgame. Strange i know since i saw many gw2 defenders bashing other games for this reason.
Anyway..theres LOTS of mmorpgs that have meaningful endgames. They give the player the chance to build a "legacy" within the game...kind of like being famous for being good ect. This game lacks any real means to stand out in anything you do.
Theres the loot aspect thats missing...and thats fine...so long as theres some form of way to one up people...which drives motives of other people to achive that level of character progression.
Oh and my favorite is the "without gear the real pvpers shine" of whatever. Well aside from a risk free pvp enviroment...yeah i guess its a great day for the button macroers...but even then...theres really no way to stand out from the zerg. And again, when people think themepark pvp with no risk seperates the good pvpers from the bad is hilarious...since i gurantee you not more than 10% of these hardcore instance battleground pvp pros would touch any game that put even the most easily obtainable items at risk in pvp.
To the people who are bored of a game with no meaningful endgame...dont worry...i suspect they will sell you one shortly for $60. They would have to be retarded not to.
Its funny too...since lack of a fun and working endgame killed SWTOR....i guess ANET wont be risking that by not adding it...kind of like how they "innovated" the healer to the dustbin.
Character progression is the defining feature of an RPG.
It would be weird to whine about non-existent progression in an FPS game, since the main difference between FPS or action game and RPG is that in action game or FPS your character is not defined / limited by stats and levels.
Since this is a MMORPG forum, and not MMOFPS or MMOActionGame, it is perfectly logical that people complain about lack of character progression when the game is obviously almost totally lacking it.
GW2 has no content? GW2 has no character recognition?
GW2 has nothing to do end game?
If any of you can produce me a screenshot where you are standing with a full suit of the dungeon token armor on while holding a legendary weapon of your choice then everything you are complaining about is invalid in my eyes.
Not a single person in this entire thread has even began to scratch the surface on any of those goals. I know because the requirements for these items are on a scale of difficulty so insane that many will never see it.
Yet you want to sit around and say GW2 has no character recognition. The first time I see a player with the items I named above equipped I will personally send them a tell to ask where they are so I can come personally face to face tell them they are a bad ass and earned respect.
Now stop crying and go get "recognition" for your character.
Your missing the point, all these thing you mention do not make your character/avatar advance or become stonger etc. It's all just cosmetic.
It's not about crying in fact you have it all wrong. The cry babies are those that can't put effort into making their avatar stronger or better . The cry babies are the ones that want all classes to be balanced in all aspects and all gear of same type to have the same stats etc etc so it fair in pvp.
I'm sorry but i will not grind a dungeon becuase i want my armor to match the color of my eyes or this one has spikes and that one doesn't, I will however grind a dungeon if it will give me better gear that will allow me to go pvp with a distinct advantage and make the "cry babies" cry .
Acutally this thread and your way of thinking would suggest that the real "cry babies" are the people that get trashed in GW2 pvp, because they do not have the gear advantage that they are used to have in other MMOs, even though they are playing the game much more than people that are owning them...
I love it.
Not at all, those with skills and gear always win against those with skills and lesser gear thus endgame has an actual point. I rather think those that are cry babaies are the ones that don't want to putt any effort into staying competitive. Think about it.
I don't think GW2 is a bad game it can be quite fun but i also don't think they designed the game so that poeple would stay but rather to play in bursts, with extended periods of it sitting on your shelf collecting dust in between those bursts.
Mostly my post was to show the juvenile i quoted that name calling can turn around and bite you in the behind.
Heh one thing I see posted often is that the point of GW2 is to have fun. The thing about having fun is that "fun" isn't the same for all. So what we have here is one group calling the other group "whiners" and "cry babies" becuase their idea of fun is different and that is well silly.
The truth is both views can be correct it just depends on which side you are viewing it from and then there those like me that can see both sides.
Well the real problem of most MMOs is that those with good gear and no skill win against those with skill and bad gear.
Or in other words, someone that invests 16 hours per day for playing will be the strongest, and someone that only has time to play 2-3 hours per day will be completely incompoetitive against him regardless of skill, so it's better to just quit playing...
Some of us have jobs, but would still like to enjoy a true competitive game where skill counts more than gear, where I don't get flamed by a kid that can play all night long and feels awesome about himself when he one-shots me with his wtfUberEpicLegendaryFierySwordOfNo-Life.
Character progression is the defining feature of an RPG.
It would be weird to whine about non-existent progression in an FPS game, since the main difference between FPS or action game and RPG is that in action game or FPS your character is not defined / limited by stats and levels.
Since this is a MMORPG forum, and not MMOFPS or MMOActionGame, it is perfectly logical that people complain about lack of character progression when the game is obviously almost totally lacking it.
But doesn't character progression end anyway when there's no more skills to unlock, or nothing else for a character's self to "grow"? Are we counting continuous power acquisition through gear upgrades as character progression? I thought they're called gear progression. I thought raids were just slapped on by MMORPG devs in order to prolong content before the arrival of the next expansion which will continue the actual character progression?
As far as character progression is concerned, GW2 has it. Even as a player reaches 80 it is still possible to earn Skill Points so the character can "grow".
GW2 has no content? GW2 has no character recognition?
GW2 has nothing to do end game?
If any of you can produce me a screenshot where you are standing with a full suit of the dungeon token armor on while holding a legendary weapon of your choice then everything you are complaining about is invalid in my eyes.
Not a single person in this entire thread has even began to scratch the surface on any of those goals. I know because the requirements for these items are on a scale of difficulty so insane that many will never see it.
Yet you want to sit around and say GW2 has no character recognition. The first time I see a player with the items I named above equipped I will personally send them a tell to ask where they are so I can come personally face to face tell them they are a bad ass and earned respect.
Now stop crying and go get "recognition" for your character.
Your missing the point, all these thing you mention do not make your character/avatar advance or become stonger etc. It's all just cosmetic.
It's not about crying in fact you have it all wrong. The cry babies are those that can't put effort into making their avatar stronger or better . The cry babies are the ones that want all classes to be balanced in all aspects and all gear of same type to have the same stats etc etc so it fair in pvp.
I'm sorry but i will not grind a dungeon becuase i want my armor to match the color of my eyes or this one has spikes and that one doesn't, I will however grind a dungeon if it will give me better gear that will allow me to go pvp with a distinct advantage and make the "cry babies" cry .
Acutally this thread and your way of thinking would suggest that the real "cry babies" are the people that get trashed in GW2 pvp, because they do not have the gear advantage that they are used to have in other MMOs, even though they are playing the game much more than people that are owning them...
I love it.
Not at all, those with skills and gear always win against those with skills and lesser gear thus endgame has an actual point. I rather think those that are cry babaies are the ones that don't want to putt any effort into staying competitive. Think about it.
I don't think GW2 is a bad game it can be quite fun but i also don't think they designed the game so that poeple would stay but rather to play in bursts, with extended periods of it sitting on your shelf collecting dust in between those bursts.
Mostly my post was to show the juvenile i quoted that name calling can turn around and bite you in the behind.
Heh one thing I see posted often is that the point of GW2 is to have fun. The thing about having fun is that "fun" isn't the same for all. So what we have here is one group calling the other group "whiners" and "cry babies" becuase their idea of fun is different and that is well silly.
The truth is both views can be correct it just depends on which side you are viewing it from and then there those like me that can see both sides.
Well the real problem of most MMOs is that those with good gear and no skill win against those with skill and bad gear.
Or in other words, someone that invests 16 hours per day for playing will be the strongest, and someone that only has time to play 2-3 hours per day will be completely incompoetitive against him regardless of skill, so it's better to just quit playing...
Some of us have jobs, but would still like to enjoy a true competitive game where skill counts more than gear, where I don't get flamed by a kid that can play all night long and feels awesome about himself when he one-shots me with his wtfUberEpicLegendaryFierySwordOfNo-Life.
I was hoping someone would say this, not in all games. In most it just means it takes you longer to get that good gear and be effective at higher levels but if you have lesser gear but better skills you will win again someone with lesser skills but better gear. If your skill are to close the gear will decide. I have a job too and there's no need to play for 16 hours a day. It just means when new stuff comes out you will be at a disadvantage for awhile.
This lets people stand out and gives meaning to endgame.
As to the level difference I'm sorry but a level one should not be on par with a maxed level character. That's like saying my 3 year old that just learned to kick a soccer ball should be on par with an adult that's been kicking one around for 15 years on the soccer field.
Also gear progression is PART of character progression even if some would like to think otherwise.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Originally posted by vort3x Well the real problem of most MMOs is that those with good gear and no skill win against those with skill and bad gear. Or in other words, someone that invests 16 hours per day for playing will be the strongest, and someone that only has time to play 2-3 hours per day will be completely incompoetitive against him regardless of skill, so it's better to just quit playing... Some of us have jobs, but would still like to enjoy a true competitive game where skill counts more than gear, where I don't get flamed by a kid that can play all night long and feels awesome about himself when he one-shots me with his wtfUberEpicLegendaryFierySwordOfNo-Life.
Someone who plays more than you will most likely beat you. Even if the gear is the same. I don't get this argument that you can play a couple hours and be competitive just because there is no gear discrepancy. Unless the combat system is shallow, you're not going to beat someone who plays more than you. You will be at work, and the guys that owned you in every other mmo will be getting better at this one. The only thing you will be able to take away from your beatings is that these guys are truly better than you and you can no longer use gear as an excuse for getting stomped. Of course thats all moot if the combat system is shallow. Then everyone can master it, hardcore or not, and be on an even playing field in that regard as well.
Its an interesting take the fanbois have taken on this argument. The game clearly lacks a meaningful endgame. All of a sudden this is the only mmorpg where its OK to not have a meaningful endgame. Strange i know since i saw many gw2 defenders bashing other games for this reason.
Anyway..theres LOTS of mmorpgs that have meaningful endgames. They give the player the chance to build a "legacy" within the game...kind of like being famous for being good ect. This game lacks any real means to stand out in anything you do.
Theres the loot aspect thats missing...and thats fine...so long as theres some form of way to one up people...which drives motives of other people to achive that level of character progression.
Oh and my favorite is the "without gear the real pvpers shine" of whatever. Well aside from a risk free pvp enviroment...yeah i guess its a great day for the button macroers...but even then...theres really no way to stand out from the zerg. And again, when people think themepark pvp with no risk seperates the good pvpers from the bad is hilarious...since i gurantee you not more than 10% of these hardcore instance battleground pvp pros would touch any game that put even the most easily obtainable items at risk in pvp.
To the people who are bored of a game with no meaningful endgame...dont worry...i suspect they will sell you one shortly for $60. They would have to be retarded not to.
Its funny too...since lack of a fun and working endgame killed SWTOR....i guess ANET wont be risking that by not adding it...kind of like how they "innovated" the healer to the dustbin.
Character progression is the defining feature of an RPG.
It would be weird to whine about non-existent progression in an FPS game, since the main difference between FPS or action game and RPG is that in action game or FPS your character is not defined / limited by stats and levels.
Since this is a MMORPG forum, and not MMOFPS or MMOActionGame, it is perfectly logical that people complain about lack of character progression when the game is obviously almost totally lacking it.
But doesn't character progression end anyway when there's no more skills to unlock, or nothing else for a character's self to "grow"? Are we counting continuous power acquisition through gear upgrades as character progression? I thought they're called gear progression. I thought raids were just slapped on by MMORPG devs in order to prolong content before the arrival of the next expansion which will continue the actual character progression?
As far as character progression is concerned, GW2 has it. Even as a player reaches 80 it is still possible to earn Skill Points so the character can "grow".
What game are you talking about, if you're talking about gear progression? And yes, even gear progression counts as character progression.
Anyway, MMORPGs I play either have no level cap or have AA system in place (Alternate Advancement), which makes your character earn special XP points, which further specializes your character even when he's already at "max" level.
GW2 doesn't have a reasonable character progression even if it has 80 levels. Since the content scales to you, your character is not really improving compared to the environment. The feeling of progression is basically killed. People that like shooters or action games with constant difficulty might like it, I hate it.
The game clearly lacks a meaningful endgame. All of a sudden this is the only mmorpg where its OK to not have a meaningful endgame. Strange i know since i saw many gw2 defenders bashing other games for this reason.
Not really.
SWG Pre-NGE doesn't have an endgame
Darkfall doesn't have an endgame
APB doesn't have an endgame
DAoC doesn't have an endgame
EVE Online doesn't have an endgame
In fact, which mmo really has an "meaningful endgame"? Even in WoW, you get to best gear, new gear comes out, you gotta grind again. That's not meaningful - that's just a "materialistic top tier", as opposed to the games above, which is "power-based" or "political top tier", and definitely more meaningful than gear-based.
No MMO is supposed to have an "endgame", because it is perpetual and persistent. If you want it to "end", play Dragon Age, that ends.
WvW seems pointless really. The bonuses are not significant enough to care about.
spvp is pointless as the gear cannot be worn outside
Dungeons are pointless other than farming shards for crafting
It would seem there is no way to elevate yourself beyond others, there is no form of name recognition, no way to be known as the richest, best, etc. Just pointless content.
The graphics and questing system are very good, but once you hit 80 the game just comes to a halt. Perhaps I am missing something here?
I am honestly flabbergasted that yet again someone is asking what the point of a game is. There is never a point to a game.
why isnt this thread closed yet.....i dont see the point of this thread tbh.
The OP is a troll imho.......he does nothing but talking how bad the game is while he is obviously still playing it....cant be realy that bad then can it??
I am alos an oldschool sandbox player (UO FTW baby) and this guy is comparing sandboxes to themeparks.......tssss.
When it come to his beloved grind for the ultimate gear there is a game that is REALY good at making you grind for you UBER gear and thats wow......oh and tomorow you'll have a new expansion coming out where you can start from zero to 85 (or is it 90 these days....i dont care anyways) and then grind your guts out in pve OR pvp to be the better man on the server.
So OP.....plz go back to wow.....thats the game you like and need....bye now.
WvW seems pointless really. The bonuses are not significant enough to care about.
spvp is pointless as the gear cannot be worn outside
Dungeons are pointless other than farming shards for crafting
It would seem there is no way to elevate yourself beyond others, there is no form of name recognition, no way to be known as the richest, best, etc. Just pointless content.
The graphics and questing system are very good, but once you hit 80 the game just comes to a halt. Perhaps I am missing something here?
I too find the game lacking any real substantive way for me to impress my legions of internet girlfriends. They all live in Canada. You wouldn't know them.
I don't think GW2 is a bad game it can be quite fun but i also don't think they designed the game so that poeple would stay but rather to play in bursts, with extended periods of it sitting on your shelf collecting dust in between those bursts.
I find the above sentence to be particularly apt when it comes to GW2 as I have found that once I reached 80 that it's hard to play continually, day after day, without taking a break.
This is only my own opinion and I can expect others to think differently, but speaking for myself where I do find it a decent game and I've had a whole lot of fun playing, it's definitely one where I need another, subscription game, to back it up.
Character progression is the defining feature of an RPG.
It would be weird to whine about non-existent progression in an FPS game, since the main difference between FPS or action game and RPG is that in action game or FPS your character is not defined / limited by stats and levels.
Since this is a MMORPG forum, and not MMOFPS or MMOActionGame, it is perfectly logical that people complain about lack of character progression when the game is obviously almost totally lacking it.
But doesn't character progression end anyway when there's no more skills to unlock, or nothing else for a character's self to "grow"? Are we counting continuous power acquisition through gear upgrades as character progression? I thought they're called gear progression. I thought raids were just slapped on by MMORPG devs in order to prolong content before the arrival of the next expansion which will continue the actual character progression?
As far as character progression is concerned, GW2 has it. Even as a player reaches 80 it is still possible to earn Skill Points so the character can "grow".
What game are you talking about, if you're talking about gear progression? And yes, even gear progression counts as character progression.
I have no particular game in mind, just the usual raid-gear-endgame MMOs. Part of the OP and the ongoing discussion is about the lack of power through gear in GW2's endgame. I also consider gear progression as a part of character progression, but when it's gotten to a point that the only way for you to progress (be more powerful) is through gear I feel I'm just doing a filler until the introduction of a new level cap.
Anyway, MMORPGs I play either have no level cap or have AA system in place (Alternate Advancement), which makes your character earn special XP points, which further specializes your character even when he's already at "max" level.
GW2 doesn't have a reasonable character progression even if it has 80 levels. Since the content scales to you, your character is not really improving compared to the environment. The feeling of progression is basically killed. People that like shooters or action games with constant difficulty might like it, I hate it.
I don't know about reasonable. It sure doesn't have the typical character progression. The feeling of progression may have been nerfed...but I don't feel it killed. Going back to 1-15 zones I find it much much easier compared to when I was actually level 1-15. It's true I'm not a God to the mobs there, but I don't mind.
I don't think GW2 is a bad game it can be quite fun but i also don't think they designed the game so that poeple would stay but rather to play in bursts, with extended periods of it sitting on your shelf collecting dust in between those bursts.
I find the above sentence to be particularly apt when it comes to GW2 as I have found that once I reached 80 that it's hard to play continually, day after day, without taking a break.
This is only my own opinion and I can expect others to think differently, but speaking for myself where I do find it a decent game and I've had a whole lot of fun playing, it's definitely one where I need another, subscription game, to back it up.
same feelings. nice game, but thats it. cant hold as a main mmo, at least for me. to give a credit, its sub free and at least i can log in sometimes, when i have nothing to do or get bored to my main mmo.
Originally posted by SirFubar From that point of view, playing any sort of video game is pointless too.
I disagree. In other MMOs you can be better than other players by obtaining the best gear and being able to accomplish things that are not possible for them. I want recognition, I want to be known as one of the best in some catagory. This game does not offer that, the game has absolutely no purpose at all. There is no benefit to being level 80 when you could just be level 10. This game is really confusing and it isn't looking like it will have a bright future.
You can be better than other players simply by the virtue of being more skilled. You really think you're better because your gear allows you to hit harder? That's pretty sad reasoning for why GW2 is pointless.
What's the point of any game. They are just games, play one if you find it fun, dont if you dont. This isnt one of those games designed for socially deranged nerds who absolutely must have better stats in their gear to feel alive.
Originally posted by Kuinn What's the point of any game. They are just games, play one if you find it fun, dont if you dont. This isnt one of those games designed for socially deranged nerds who absolutely must have better stats in their gear to feel alive.
This, and the fact that people have logged hundreds of hours each already in a $60 game. Try stretching out the longevity of a linear single player game of the same price range like Batman: Arkahm Asylum. You can't. There are hundreds of hours of gameplay in GW2 though, however people are acting like they got robbed. They'd only be robbing you if they made you pay a sub for the same few hundred hours of content, but we've seen how that's working out for Tera and TSW so far. Personally, I think every game should start out B2P and if the quality and amount of content warrants it, they can have my $15 a month. The only game that manages to really make a dent with this payment plan is WoW, but no company nor the players ever learn.
WvW seems pointless really. The bonuses are not significant enough to care about.
spvp is pointless as the gear cannot be worn outside
Dungeons are pointless other than farming shards for crafting
It would seem there is no way to elevate yourself beyond others, there is no form of name recognition, no way to be known as the richest, best, etc. Just pointless content.
The graphics and questing system are very good, but once you hit 80 the game just comes to a halt. Perhaps I am missing something here?
Question, did you:
- completed all areas and even found the hidden ones in every zone?
- completed all story and explorable paths of all dungeons?
- maxed your crafting proffesions or all crafting professions?
- completed all achievements on your achievements page (PvE & PvP ones)?
- reached max rank in the structure PvP?
- got yourself legendary gear or weapons?
- completed your personal story?
- played tournaments in the mists?
- checked other professions and played with them till the updates of GW2 will come our way?
I don't know if the next announced free update will include these but with the guild halls on their way there will be also Guild vs Guild in the game soon.
Additional to that our hall of monuments will come aswell personal housing in which you will be able to have trophies of your achievements you can show to friends or guests.
It was also said that you will have the possibility to indeed having your own statue in your home instance in the future (not personal housing cause its extra)
WvW seems pointless really. The bonuses are not significant enough to care about.
spvp is pointless as the gear cannot be worn outside
Dungeons are pointless other than farming shards for crafting
It would seem there is no way to elevate yourself beyond others, there is no form of name recognition, no way to be known as the richest, best, etc. Just pointless content.
The graphics and questing system are very good, but once you hit 80 the game just comes to a halt. Perhaps I am missing something here?
Finally people are seeing what I have been saying since Arena.Net said they were going to make GW2. Arena.Net and NCsoft have no concept of end game whether it is PvP or PvE. Everyone laughed at me and said Guild Wars 2 would be different from Guild Wars 1. whelp here it comes
"I TOLD YOU SO!"
Pretty sure Arenanet has a very good concept of endgame. Guild Wars 1 is a fine testiment to that. Go play through GW1 and try to sail through all of its content; it will take you quite some time. Saying "I told you so" only solidifies that you are nothing more than a blind hater. I think, in fact that most of Ncsofts published titles have a large amount of "end game". Look at Aion. Love it or hate it aion has a TON of content. Every content patch they introduced several new zones with hundreds of quests, new world bosses, several new instances, new gear, skins, housing, etc etc. Aion may not have been the game for me when i played it for x months. And the fact that it is now F2P and still maintains its servers and can push out the same amount of new content at a regular pace is impressive. Lineage II is another good testiment to Ncsofts knowlege of endgame. GW1, with every new expansion, added a new map to the game that was either equal in size to the original or larger. They pretty much made an entirely new game to add on to the original. We might as well be on Guild Wars 4. So I'm going to have to disagree with you, though you obviously won't care and will just continue to spout hate.
I have played Guild Wars 1 all the way through and found it to be dull that is why I have repeatedly stated Guild Wars 2 will be like Guild Wars 1. You get to end game and find nothing there. I have played almost every game NCsoft has released(Dungeon Runers, Exteel, Lineage 2, CoH/CoV, Tabula Rasa, and Aion). Compared to games like Asheron's Call, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest 2, and World of Warcraft NCsofts and Arena.Nets understanding of End Game Content sucks.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
....but once you hit 80 the game just comes to a halt. Perhaps I am missing something here?
You're not wrong, but that's true of every MMO whenever you hit max level these days. No game has anything useful to do at "end game" which is why they keep the obsessives happy with the "Hamster Wheel of Never-Ending Raiding", leaving everyone else wondering what to do for entertainment.
WvW seems pointless really. The bonuses are not significant enough to care about.
spvp is pointless as the gear cannot be worn outside
Dungeons are pointless other than farming shards for crafting
It would seem there is no way to elevate yourself beyond others, there is no form of name recognition, no way to be known as the richest, best, etc. Just pointless content.
The graphics and questing system are very good, but once you hit 80 the game just comes to a halt. Perhaps I am missing something here?
Finally people are seeing what I have been saying since Arena.Net said they were going to make GW2. Arena.Net and NCsoft have no concept of end game whether it is PvP or PvE. Everyone laughed at me and said Guild Wars 2 would be different from Guild Wars 1. whelp here it comes
"I TOLD YOU SO!"
Pretty sure Arenanet has a very good concept of endgame. Guild Wars 1 is a fine testiment to that. Go play through GW1 and try to sail through all of its content; it will take you quite some time. Saying "I told you so" only solidifies that you are nothing more than a blind hater. I think, in fact that most of Ncsofts published titles have a large amount of "end game". Look at Aion. Love it or hate it aion has a TON of content. Every content patch they introduced several new zones with hundreds of quests, new world bosses, several new instances, new gear, skins, housing, etc etc. Aion may not have been the game for me when i played it for x months. And the fact that it is now F2P and still maintains its servers and can push out the same amount of new content at a regular pace is impressive. Lineage II is another good testiment to Ncsofts knowlege of endgame. GW1, with every new expansion, added a new map to the game that was either equal in size to the original or larger. They pretty much made an entirely new game to add on to the original. We might as well be on Guild Wars 4. So I'm going to have to disagree with you, though you obviously won't care and will just continue to spout hate.
I have played Guild Wars 1 all the way through and found it to be dull that is why I have repeatedly stated Guild Wars 2 will be like Guild Wars 1. You get to end game and find nothing there. I have played almost every game NCsoft has released(Dungeon Runers, Exteel, Lineage 2, CoH/CoV, Tabula Rasa, and Aion). Compared to games like Asheron's Call, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest 2, and World of Warcraft NCsofts and Arena.Nets understanding of End Game Content sucks.
You really can't be serious by this statement.
Guild Wars 1 prophecies or did you play all 3 chapters + the expansion EotN?
What did you play from Coh/CoV? Ever checked the mission architect, got involved in supergroups and their base construction + supergroup mission, raids, base raids and other?
WoW can't and will never come close to both of these games to say the least and LotR is the generic and classical design of a mmo for 99% of its content.
Everquest 2 is also a classic design and can't be compared (even I liked the game back then) with the uniqueness of systems GW1 or CoH offer.
NCSoft has released and unfortunately partially cancelled great games that were mainly fun.
Lineage 2 was a classic design with a few twists here and there that made it stood out but not much though.
Tabula Rasa had a awesome design but they dropped it and changed it from fantasy to sci fi so it can stand out more.
A very bad move in my opinion that destroyed the whole game and previously planned systems.
I'll take ANets "Endgame" and partially NCSofts understanding at any day while I would avoid Blizzards and many others for sure.
Can work on my crafting and crafting is meaningfull I can go have fun in WvW with my guild. Can go have fun with my guild doing high end de chains / world bosses Both the above don't require us all to log on at a set time, or for some people to miss out because we are full.
There's no wow / EQ style raids, but i couldn't give a monkeys, I'm not interested in doing them.
Only thing in wow endgame for me is wintergrasp / tol barad which is poor in comparison to say war or aion never mind WvW.
Originally posted by Kuinn What's the point of any game. They are just games, play one if you find it fun, dont if you dont. This isnt one of those games designed for socially deranged nerds who absolutely must have better stats in their gear to feel alive.
This, and the fact that people have logged hundreds of hours each already in a $60 game. Try stretching out the longevity of a linear single player game of the same price range like Batman: Arkahm Asylum. You can't. There are hundreds of hours of gameplay in GW2 though, however people are acting like they got robbed. They'd only be robbing you if they made you pay a sub for the same few hundred hours of content, but we've seen how that's working out for Tera and TSW so far. Personally, I think every game should start out B2P and if the quality and amount of content warrants it, they can have my $15 a month. The only game that manages to really make a dent with this payment plan is WoW, but no company nor the players ever learn.
This ^
Honestly, a lot of people are chasing a giant pipe-dream when it comes to MMOs. There's a huge double-standard put on MMOs, that doesn't get placed on any other type of game. Games, by their nature, are repetative and often pointless. However, that doesn't stop games like mario, or zelda, or shadow of the colossus, etc. etc. etc. from being great games.
Progression can be a really fun thing in a game, but it's not the only reason to play it. For example, Natural Selection / Starcraft have a sense of progression, but that's not the reason they are fun. It's a bonus, but every game is redoing the same progression all over again.
In GW2, you have progression, but at a certain point the focus changes. It becomes much more about customization, strategy, and skill. If you are only interested in linear progression, MMOs are probably not for you, because they will inevitably always run out of unique content. There's just only a certain amount of things you can do before they become 'too similar'. Even WoW is very guilty of this. I have yet to play a linearly progressive MMO that doesn't suffer from this. It's physically impossible to keep that ball rolling uphill forever. People just consume the content far too quickly.
Comments
Its an interesting take the fanbois have taken on this argument. The game clearly lacks a meaningful endgame. All of a sudden this is the only mmorpg where its OK to not have a meaningful endgame. Strange i know since i saw many gw2 defenders bashing other games for this reason.
Anyway..theres LOTS of mmorpgs that have meaningful endgames. They give the player the chance to build a "legacy" within the game...kind of like being famous for being good ect. This game lacks any real means to stand out in anything you do.
Theres the loot aspect thats missing...and thats fine...so long as theres some form of way to one up people...which drives motives of other people to achive that level of character progression.
Oh and my favorite is the "without gear the real pvpers shine" of whatever. Well aside from a risk free pvp enviroment...yeah i guess its a great day for the button macroers...but even then...theres really no way to stand out from the zerg. And again, when people think themepark pvp with no risk seperates the good pvpers from the bad is hilarious...since i gurantee you not more than 10% of these hardcore instance battleground pvp pros would touch any game that put even the most easily obtainable items at risk in pvp.
To the people who are bored of a game with no meaningful endgame...dont worry...i suspect they will sell you one shortly for $60. They would have to be retarded not to.
Its funny too...since lack of a fun and working endgame killed SWTOR....i guess ANET wont be risking that by not adding it...kind of like how they "innovated" the healer to the dustbin.
Character progression is the defining feature of an RPG.
It would be weird to whine about non-existent progression in an FPS game, since the main difference between FPS or action game and RPG is that in action game or FPS your character is not defined / limited by stats and levels.
Since this is a MMORPG forum, and not MMOFPS or MMOActionGame, it is perfectly logical that people complain about lack of character progression when the game is obviously almost totally lacking it.
REALITY CHECK
Well the real problem of most MMOs is that those with good gear and no skill win against those with skill and bad gear.
Or in other words, someone that invests 16 hours per day for playing will be the strongest, and someone that only has time to play 2-3 hours per day will be completely incompoetitive against him regardless of skill, so it's better to just quit playing...
Some of us have jobs, but would still like to enjoy a true competitive game where skill counts more than gear, where I don't get flamed by a kid that can play all night long and feels awesome about himself when he one-shots me with his wtfUberEpicLegendaryFierySwordOfNo-Life.
But doesn't character progression end anyway when there's no more skills to unlock, or nothing else for a character's self to "grow"? Are we counting continuous power acquisition through gear upgrades as character progression? I thought they're called gear progression. I thought raids were just slapped on by MMORPG devs in order to prolong content before the arrival of the next expansion which will continue the actual character progression?
As far as character progression is concerned, GW2 has it. Even as a player reaches 80 it is still possible to earn Skill Points so the character can "grow".
I was hoping someone would say this, not in all games. In most it just means it takes you longer to get that good gear and be effective at higher levels but if you have lesser gear but better skills you will win again someone with lesser skills but better gear. If your skill are to close the gear will decide. I have a job too and there's no need to play for 16 hours a day. It just means when new stuff comes out you will be at a disadvantage for awhile.
This lets people stand out and gives meaning to endgame.
As to the level difference I'm sorry but a level one should not be on par with a maxed level character. That's like saying my 3 year old that just learned to kick a soccer ball should be on par with an adult that's been kicking one around for 15 years on the soccer field.
Also gear progression is PART of character progression even if some would like to think otherwise.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Someone who plays more than you will most likely beat you. Even if the gear is the same. I don't get this argument that you can play a couple hours and be competitive just because there is no gear discrepancy. Unless the combat system is shallow, you're not going to beat someone who plays more than you. You will be at work, and the guys that owned you in every other mmo will be getting better at this one. The only thing you will be able to take away from your beatings is that these guys are truly better than you and you can no longer use gear as an excuse for getting stomped. Of course thats all moot if the combat system is shallow. Then everyone can master it, hardcore or not, and be on an even playing field in that regard as well.
well said lad
What game are you talking about, if you're talking about gear progression? And yes, even gear progression counts as character progression.
Anyway, MMORPGs I play either have no level cap or have AA system in place (Alternate Advancement), which makes your character earn special XP points, which further specializes your character even when he's already at "max" level.
GW2 doesn't have a reasonable character progression even if it has 80 levels. Since the content scales to you, your character is not really improving compared to the environment. The feeling of progression is basically killed. People that like shooters or action games with constant difficulty might like it, I hate it.
REALITY CHECK
Not really.
SWG Pre-NGE doesn't have an endgame
Darkfall doesn't have an endgame
APB doesn't have an endgame
DAoC doesn't have an endgame
EVE Online doesn't have an endgame
In fact, which mmo really has an "meaningful endgame"? Even in WoW, you get to best gear, new gear comes out, you gotta grind again. That's not meaningful - that's just a "materialistic top tier", as opposed to the games above, which is "power-based" or "political top tier", and definitely more meaningful than gear-based.
No MMO is supposed to have an "endgame", because it is perpetual and persistent. If you want it to "end", play Dragon Age, that ends.
I am honestly flabbergasted that yet again someone is asking what the point of a game is. There is never a point to a game.
why isnt this thread closed yet.....i dont see the point of this thread tbh.
The OP is a troll imho.......he does nothing but talking how bad the game is while he is obviously still playing it....cant be realy that bad then can it??
I am alos an oldschool sandbox player (UO FTW baby) and this guy is comparing sandboxes to themeparks.......tssss.
When it come to his beloved grind for the ultimate gear there is a game that is REALY good at making you grind for you UBER gear and thats wow......oh and tomorow you'll have a new expansion coming out where you can start from zero to 85 (or is it 90 these days....i dont care anyways) and then grind your guts out in pve OR pvp to be the better man on the server.
So OP.....plz go back to wow.....thats the game you like and need....bye now.
I too find the game lacking any real substantive way for me to impress my legions of internet girlfriends. They all live in Canada. You wouldn't know them.
I find the above sentence to be particularly apt when it comes to GW2 as I have found that once I reached 80 that it's hard to play continually, day after day, without taking a break.
This is only my own opinion and I can expect others to think differently, but speaking for myself where I do find it a decent game and I've had a whole lot of fun playing, it's definitely one where I need another, subscription game, to back it up.
yep, i hate playing wvw.
it's soo, boring and pointless.
im going back playing bf3.
same feelings. nice game, but thats it. cant hold as a main mmo, at least for me. to give a credit, its sub free and at least i can log in sometimes, when i have nothing to do or get bored to my main mmo.
You can be better than other players simply by the virtue of being more skilled. You really think you're better because your gear allows you to hit harder? That's pretty sad reasoning for why GW2 is pointless.
This, and the fact that people have logged hundreds of hours each already in a $60 game. Try stretching out the longevity of a linear single player game of the same price range like Batman: Arkahm Asylum. You can't. There are hundreds of hours of gameplay in GW2 though, however people are acting like they got robbed. They'd only be robbing you if they made you pay a sub for the same few hundred hours of content, but we've seen how that's working out for Tera and TSW so far. Personally, I think every game should start out B2P and if the quality and amount of content warrants it, they can have my $15 a month. The only game that manages to really make a dent with this payment plan is WoW, but no company nor the players ever learn.
Question, did you:
- completed all areas and even found the hidden ones in every zone?
- completed all story and explorable paths of all dungeons?
- maxed your crafting proffesions or all crafting professions?
- completed all achievements on your achievements page (PvE & PvP ones)?
- reached max rank in the structure PvP?
- got yourself legendary gear or weapons?
- completed your personal story?
- played tournaments in the mists?
- checked other professions and played with them till the updates of GW2 will come our way?
I don't know if the next announced free update will include these but with the guild halls on their way there will be also Guild vs Guild in the game soon.
Additional to that our hall of monuments will come aswell personal housing in which you will be able to have trophies of your achievements you can show to friends or guests.
It was also said that you will have the possibility to indeed having your own statue in your home instance in the future (not personal housing cause its extra)
As about Ladders and Rankings there you go:
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/pvp/Ladder-ranking-custom-tournaments/page/2
ANet is known for lots pvp options like in GW1 and they are already working on it to give us more options.
As you can see on their thread the ladder and ranking system is coming our way aswell.
Not sure if it will be added with the update we will probably get today or not though.
To the guy that said he played till level 9 I can only say:
- you didn't saw anything yet cause you never left the starting area.
I have played Guild Wars 1 all the way through and found it to be dull that is why I have repeatedly stated Guild Wars 2 will be like Guild Wars 1. You get to end game and find nothing there. I have played almost every game NCsoft has released(Dungeon Runers, Exteel, Lineage 2, CoH/CoV, Tabula Rasa, and Aion). Compared to games like Asheron's Call, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest 2, and World of Warcraft NCsofts and Arena.Nets understanding of End Game Content sucks.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
You're not wrong, but that's true of every MMO whenever you hit max level these days. No game has anything useful to do at "end game" which is why they keep the obsessives happy with the "Hamster Wheel of Never-Ending Raiding", leaving everyone else wondering what to do for entertainment.
You really can't be serious by this statement.
Guild Wars 1 prophecies or did you play all 3 chapters + the expansion EotN?
What did you play from Coh/CoV? Ever checked the mission architect, got involved in supergroups and their base construction + supergroup mission, raids, base raids and other?
WoW can't and will never come close to both of these games to say the least and LotR is the generic and classical design of a mmo for 99% of its content.
Everquest 2 is also a classic design and can't be compared (even I liked the game back then) with the uniqueness of systems GW1 or CoH offer.
NCSoft has released and unfortunately partially cancelled great games that were mainly fun.
Lineage 2 was a classic design with a few twists here and there that made it stood out but not much though.
Tabula Rasa had a awesome design but they dropped it and changed it from fantasy to sci fi so it can stand out more.
A very bad move in my opinion that destroyed the whole game and previously planned systems.
I'll take ANets "Endgame" and partially NCSofts understanding at any day while I would avoid Blizzards and many others for sure.
Can work on my crafting and crafting is meaningfull
I can go have fun in WvW with my guild.
Can go have fun with my guild doing high end de chains / world bosses
Both the above don't require us all to log on at a set time, or for some people to miss out because we are full.
There's no wow / EQ style raids, but i couldn't give a monkeys, I'm not interested in doing them.
Only thing in wow endgame for me is wintergrasp / tol barad which is poor in comparison to say war or aion never mind WvW.
This ^
Honestly, a lot of people are chasing a giant pipe-dream when it comes to MMOs. There's a huge double-standard put on MMOs, that doesn't get placed on any other type of game. Games, by their nature, are repetative and often pointless. However, that doesn't stop games like mario, or zelda, or shadow of the colossus, etc. etc. etc. from being great games.
Progression can be a really fun thing in a game, but it's not the only reason to play it. For example, Natural Selection / Starcraft have a sense of progression, but that's not the reason they are fun. It's a bonus, but every game is redoing the same progression all over again.
In GW2, you have progression, but at a certain point the focus changes. It becomes much more about customization, strategy, and skill. If you are only interested in linear progression, MMOs are probably not for you, because they will inevitably always run out of unique content. There's just only a certain amount of things you can do before they become 'too similar'. Even WoW is very guilty of this. I have yet to play a linearly progressive MMO that doesn't suffer from this. It's physically impossible to keep that ball rolling uphill forever. People just consume the content far too quickly.