I have to agree. I like the fact that Guild Wars has headed away from so much instancing. But at the same time, what they think is game breaking - really isn't - as game breaking as they think.
Yes, they have dynamic events, but they talked it up as if it was something not yet touched upon. When in reality all they did was keep looping the same -event- over and over and over. It got boring, and it got boring quickly.
I had this idea that the events would more random, and what we did could affect the entire progression of the game. I did really like how they laid out the skill keys for my elementalist. That was very nice.
I liked many things about the game but there was so many restrictions on how your gear looked, and it just seemed like a mish-mash of free for alls - which was not so much a bad thing but - I can't explain it - I just felt as if would be fun to hit up now and then - but I did not feel totally connected to it.
But - I fully anticipate they will explore more options, and ideas and we will see the game evolve with input from the players.
I did not - NOT - like it, but I think I'll wait a bit more to return, and jump in when they do some updates/upgrades and changes.
The people btw were very nice, kind and I did love the energy. The community will undoubtedly become a winning part of GW2.
Aren't red5 and anet both seattle-based with ex-blizzard employees at them?
Is that why we are getting all of this gw2 lovin? Mark Kern is a smart guy, there is no way he writes such an over-the-top article without ulterior motives.
GW2 did not change the face of MMORPGs, it sold the same as the other big MMORPG launch this year, and that one was P2P, and there is no evidence that GW2 has good retention rate.
It did not innovate, it merely polished SOME things, while generally just making the game so easy that it would attempt to appeal to the masses and be a complete letdown to gamers that want those crazy hard challenges.
MMORPGs are supposed to be about playing characters that you build up and develop some sorta connection with in a game world. When you make the journey too easy, it is harder to build a bond.
Anyone that got max level in eq1 before velious knows what I'm talking about.
facebook and twitter is what is popular in this day and age though, and with the way mainstream consumers are, it's no wonder that we are getting flooded with these super-easy games that require little brain activity to play.
In all honesty what you state sounds fun and engaging in a pen and paper game but just like in GW2 the questing becomes boring. I would rather goto point A and know what I'm going to get into instead of finding nothing or something that I wasn't expecting.
I am guessing most of the people playong GW2 right now head to other games. It didn't change anything really. So what is next is people playing the mmo games out there that suit their tastes.
Originally posted by Lethargic_Synapse Everyone criticizes the modern MMO concept but nobody ever offers real, viable alternative solutions. Such is life, I suppose.
Solutions? The devloper's joib. I think there have been more than enough ideas thrown around. They just need to start thinking outside the box.
There's a lot I like about GW2, but most of that has to do with how the content is presented. I think its a step in the right direction for the kinds of content it has, but that's about it for me.
Any mmo that come's out without Dynamic Events is a step back.
In gw2 DE's are pretty well done, can be improved and i bet Anet are working on that for sure
In the meantime i realy hope other mmo studio's forget the pickup a quest at a hub go out and bring it back. I woulnt ever play a quest hub based mmo again tbh :P
Isn't this the past, present and future of MMORPG's? but dev's are too scared to let go of the power and see where it takes them.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Thats what i tought too, thats there was gonna be Game masters doing events special things, i have noticed some towns that sometimes will be different, like for example the centaur will own that town and theres gonna be a war, and you can go some other time and the town will be owned by friendly npcs and you can be safe without any monsters in there or agro. And there was one cave in the human lands that sometimes would be open and sometimes will be closed full with rocks. But thats all i have seen for now.
The dynamic events a lot of them are bug, the npcs you have to escort sometimes are just standing they wont walk, that also happened to me in the story line where Trahearne becomes marshal, that cave, im stopped in that part.
Im kinda unconfortable that the game wasnt finish on release and also about the dungeons i do agree 100% with you about the trash mobs and the big chest full of whites and blues at the end, not full just 1 or 2 items. I kinda feel bad for Arena im 50/50.
I love the idea of an AI game director, say was that stolen from the hunger games?
No. There's a reason Left 4 Dead 2 is shown up in the article. The Left 4 Dead games used a aystem they called the AI Director that scaled game challenge and events in response to how the players were faring.
This concept greatly predates Hunger Games from within the game world itself. It is largely reference to a virtualization of human game masters so that there is not a need of constant human handling to ceatre a dynamic experience.
In a sense it's been a longtime holy grail of game design.
The other reason it's a thing worth mentioning is because of Gaia. Or what was previously being called Gaia in Firefall.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If you want to see where genre should evolve, go check EVE Online. It should be example for every MMO dev. Not another fantasy theme park with repetative grindfest called "dynamic events".
okay none of the pictures make any sense . i have seen no discussion about wow or warhammer in the article? and you have posted their pics? same mistakes have been done in other few articles .i want to ask who is responsible for putting the pictures?
PVP is most of what justifies the existence of the mmorpg genre. It is ONLY the PVP people who need the first "m" in mmorpg, the "m" for "massively."
PUG grouping for PVE/co-op story mode is the only other thing that kind of justifies the "massively" part of the MMORPG genre, but then again, that's just the way things are done once people are already inside the MMO model. Non-MMO online gaming has always had other ways to group up with random available people from a pool of available players.
So all over, the PVE players are everywhere being asked to accept 2nd tier priority status. Some of them want to be single players. Others want multiplayer, but all they need is one "m" multiplayer, not two "m" "massively multiplayer."
An MORPG is what RPG fans really want, not an MMORPG. "MMO's" are now a different sort of established genre.
Nonsense.
Final Fantasy XI handled the first 'M' just fine. A very limited form of PvP (Ballista and Brenner) notwithstanding, FFXI was pretty much entirely PvE.
FFXI had content that ranged anywhere from 1 to 2 people, on up to alliances of 18 people, and farther on up to open events (similar to, but more involved than GW2's DEs) in its Campaign Battle and Besieged scenarios. You could have as many as 200 people participating in a single Besieged, and hundreds of people were participating in Campaign Battles across various different battle fronts.
It was everyone fighting along side each other, for a common goal, just like the DE's in GW2. Difference is, things didn't just "reset" after a CB or Besieged was over. The outcome of Campaign Battles could have an effect on the game world, as it determined who had influence/control over a given area, as well as the frequency and severity of attacks. In Besieged, certain key NPCs could be taken hostage and players could fight their way into Beastman strongholds to try and rescue them. So long as those NPCs were imprisoned, players would not be able to use their services (e.g. chocobo rental, teleportation, etc). So, the outcome had an actual lasting impact on players.
Besieged and Campaign Battles were introduced in 2006 and 2007 respectively; 5 and 6 years prior to GW2. Each system was designed with *far* more depth and *far* more impact on the game world and the players than DEs in GW2 do. So, no, ANet hasn't brought anything great or innovative to MMOs with their DE's. It's been done before.
Point is, you can absolutely have large scale content in a PvE MMO, accounting for that first 'M', and it already has been done. It's just that - with so many people wanting more "me" and less "we" in their gameplay, developers haven't explored it very much. It certainly can be done. It just isn't.
And please don't be one of those people who will now move the goal post by modifying or amending your arguments. That's a request not to do it, not a suggestion that you are or will.
You seem to not understand why, after only a month, half of gw2 playerbase is gone for others.
The word is coherency.
In the world you describe, there is no coherency. there is only a long sequence of trivial encounters decided on a dice roll.
Think, a lot of players complain SW:TOR because it has no coherency, because what you have done before doesn't change the future path, Do you really think a series of casual events can be a solution?
I was a DM, I have done some "canvas story", or I have played that, but it's absolutely incomparable to a well written story.
The same difference between an hot dog and a dinner at the fancy restaurant.
Complete world builder where in different parts of the mmo world people create different things, If enough people believe in a God, than a God is created and changes the way that part of the world interacts-how cool would that be
See the thing is GW2 didn;t change everything. DEs are the future for themepark games maybe and GW2 deffently opened up some things to the themepark mmo world. However no one is gonna switch to coping what GW2 did.
Originally posted by Zecktorin See the thing is GW2 didn;t change everything. DEs are the future for themepark games maybe and GW2 deffently opened up some things to the themepark mmo world. However no one is gonna switch to coping what GW2 did.
Its funny you say this bcause a) youre wrong about it being for themeparks and b) people are already doing similar things and trying to improve upon them (in the same way that DEs were not 100% original, but an improved version of PQs from Warhammer)
Look up The Repopulation. Sandbox game with a system similar to DEs (though more random and with more impact on the world) currently in alpha testing. Fromt heir features page:
Engagement System
The easiest way to describe the Engagement system in The Repopulation is as a Random and Mutating Public Quest. Engagements occur randomly throughout the world, and depending on how players respond to them they can mutate and spread. Engagements can change the entire content of an area, for better or for worse.
For those unfamiliar with Public Quests, here is a brief overview of that mechanic. Public Quests are shared by all players in an area, at least by those of the appropriate faction. There are objectives, and anyone who contributes to completing those objectives is eligible for a reward upon completion. The level of their contribution affects their chances and quality of loot. Public Quests have been a successful mechanic in several titles, originating with Warhammer Online but also being found in Champions Online, Everquest 2 and Rift. The key advantage of Public Quests is that they encourage teamwork and make it easy for players to meet and cooperate with one another.
So how do our engagements differ from Public Quests? Let's take a look.
Randomly Occurring
Public Quests commonly occurred in static locations and repeated shortly after the previous incarnation of them was complete. Engagements in The Repopulation spawn randomly throughout the world and use any number of different templates. This causes content to mutate and change over time based on elements within and outside of the player's control.
Spreading
Engagement templates can specify a complex chain of stages. Each stage can end when certain specifications are met, or after a period of time. Depending on how an Engagement ended it can progress to a different stage and it can also spread to other nearby Engagement nodes. Those child nodes can in turn continue to spread to children of their own.
To give a functional example of a spreading Engagement we can take a look at the system in the Aemar Mine. Under normal circumstances the mine is filled with standard mission opportunities related to its operations. But there are any number of events that can occur randomly and alter the complex entirely.
One of those scenarios is an invasion by the Lesoo. They will invade through the first floor and if they are not stopped they will barricade themselves in and then begin spreading to the lower levels, one at a time. While a level is occupied by the Lesoo, there will be new mission opportunities, though the old ones are currently defunct until the invaders can be cleared and operations can be restored. This includes new bosses and mini-bosses that grow in power the longer they have occupied the area.
This is just one of several scenarios that can occur in the mines and each alters the mine in one way or another while it is in effect.
World Altering
As Engagements spread, they can completely change the environment of an area. This includes appearances, NPCs, and missions. NPCs can set up permanent camps or defenses that will remain until they are stopped.
Our hope is the Engagement system will prevent content from becoming stale by providing an ever-changing world where the player's actions really do matter.
The concept of "gameplay through time" isnt exactly accurate. Its not where you go, its what you do. How you are immersed into a rich and believable storylines that are engaging and player determined , simply look at Secret World, they completely hit the nail on the head. Creating zones, with a general direction, but also giving players the choice to go where they pleased. So they werent pigeonholed into a linear path. However, they didnt create enough, or look at the end game with an approach to longetivity. Something Funcom repeatedly seem to fail on.
But anyway, back to the point. Alot of MMO's fail to hire good storywriters these are the most important people imo.
TBH im kinda getting fedup with the whole "THIS GAME CHANGES THE MOLD" Hysteria.. Every time a big game comes out its hollar'd out from every corner.. The only games that ever changed the mold were EQ, EVE & WoW... Thats it.. MMO's are set in stone now to be carbon copies of the above and its going to take awhile for them to develop something completely original.. and genre redefining...
In all honesty, the latest "MMORPG CHANGING EVERYTHING" ive found, is minecraft.. Throw in some RPG plugins setup a server, and you've pretty much got your own sandbox MMORPG, where you can build or destroy anything you want.. Classes, races, pvp, quests, w/e How many MMO's can boast that? None..
Ever since my first dynamic event in everquest, in form of a GM event (which unfortunately stopped again), I have been dreaming of mmorpg worlds with real adventure rather than scripted fights. There is simply nothing like something you are not sure how will play out. Exploring a new area or new quest is just not the same, as you know it is static and even the build in randomness is not very dynamic no matter how good it is made.
Anyways, ever since then I have been dreaming of that world that invited you in, and your "montly fee" would pay for real life Game Masters with the purpose of creating dynamic adventure for the players. Not all the time and not specifically for one person / party, but sometimes .. just the very idea that you are in a dynamic world where everything can and WILL happen could give the magic pen and paper roleplaying has. Might not be doable with a 13$ a month fee, but I am sure there are other options to fund such a thing if you just think outside the box.
Comments
I have to agree. I like the fact that Guild Wars has headed away from so much instancing. But at the same time, what they think is game breaking - really isn't - as game breaking as they think.
Yes, they have dynamic events, but they talked it up as if it was something not yet touched upon. When in reality all they did was keep looping the same -event- over and over and over. It got boring, and it got boring quickly.
I had this idea that the events would more random, and what we did could affect the entire progression of the game. I did really like how they laid out the skill keys for my elementalist. That was very nice.
I liked many things about the game but there was so many restrictions on how your gear looked, and it just seemed like a mish-mash of free for alls - which was not so much a bad thing but - I can't explain it - I just felt as if would be fun to hit up now and then - but I did not feel totally connected to it.
But - I fully anticipate they will explore more options, and ideas and we will see the game evolve with input from the players.
I did not - NOT - like it, but I think I'll wait a bit more to return, and jump in when they do some updates/upgrades and changes.
The people btw were very nice, kind and I did love the energy. The community will undoubtedly become a winning part of GW2.
Aren't red5 and anet both seattle-based with ex-blizzard employees at them?
Is that why we are getting all of this gw2 lovin? Mark Kern is a smart guy, there is no way he writes such an over-the-top article without ulterior motives.
GW2 did not change the face of MMORPGs, it sold the same as the other big MMORPG launch this year, and that one was P2P, and there is no evidence that GW2 has good retention rate.
It did not innovate, it merely polished SOME things, while generally just making the game so easy that it would attempt to appeal to the masses and be a complete letdown to gamers that want those crazy hard challenges.
MMORPGs are supposed to be about playing characters that you build up and develop some sorta connection with in a game world. When you make the journey too easy, it is harder to build a bond.
Anyone that got max level in eq1 before velious knows what I'm talking about.
facebook and twitter is what is popular in this day and age though, and with the way mainstream consumers are, it's no wonder that we are getting flooded with these super-easy games that require little brain activity to play.
Solutions? The devloper's joib. I think there have been more than enough ideas thrown around. They just need to start thinking outside the box.
Any mmo that come's out without Dynamic Events is a step back.
In gw2 DE's are pretty well done, can be improved and i bet Anet are working on that for sure
In the meantime i realy hope other mmo studio's forget the pickup a quest at a hub go out and bring it back.
I woulnt ever play a quest hub based mmo again tbh :P
Isn't this the past, present and future of MMORPG's? but dev's are too scared to let go of the power and see where it takes them.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
hallo ~_~
Thats what i tought too, thats there was gonna be Game masters doing events special things, i have noticed some towns that sometimes will be different, like for example the centaur will own that town and theres gonna be a war, and you can go some other time and the town will be owned by friendly npcs and you can be safe without any monsters in there or agro. And there was one cave in the human lands that sometimes would be open and sometimes will be closed full with rocks. But thats all i have seen for now.
The dynamic events
a lot of them are bug, the npcs you have to escort sometimes are just standing they wont walk, that also happened to me in the story line where Trahearne becomes marshal, that cave, im stopped in that part.
Im kinda unconfortable that the game wasnt finish on release and also about the dungeons i do agree 100% with you about the trash mobs and the big chest full of whites and blues at the end, not full just 1 or 2 items. I kinda feel bad for Arena im 50/50.
<a href="http://s526.photobucket.com/albums/cc344/zori4/Guild Wars 2 Beta/?action=view&current=zoyita.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc344/zori4/Guild Wars 2 Beta/zoyita.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
No. There's a reason Left 4 Dead 2 is shown up in the article. The Left 4 Dead games used a aystem they called the AI Director that scaled game challenge and events in response to how the players were faring.
This concept greatly predates Hunger Games from within the game world itself. It is largely reference to a virtualization of human game masters so that there is not a need of constant human handling to ceatre a dynamic experience.
In a sense it's been a longtime holy grail of game design.
The other reason it's a thing worth mentioning is because of Gaia. Or what was previously being called Gaia in Firefall.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If you want to see where genre should evolve, go check EVE Online. It should be example for every MMO dev. Not another fantasy theme park with repetative grindfest called "dynamic events".
Nonsense.
Final Fantasy XI handled the first 'M' just fine. A very limited form of PvP (Ballista and Brenner) notwithstanding, FFXI was pretty much entirely PvE.
FFXI had content that ranged anywhere from 1 to 2 people, on up to alliances of 18 people, and farther on up to open events (similar to, but more involved than GW2's DEs) in its Campaign Battle and Besieged scenarios. You could have as many as 200 people participating in a single Besieged, and hundreds of people were participating in Campaign Battles across various different battle fronts.
It was everyone fighting along side each other, for a common goal, just like the DE's in GW2. Difference is, things didn't just "reset" after a CB or Besieged was over. The outcome of Campaign Battles could have an effect on the game world, as it determined who had influence/control over a given area, as well as the frequency and severity of attacks. In Besieged, certain key NPCs could be taken hostage and players could fight their way into Beastman strongholds to try and rescue them. So long as those NPCs were imprisoned, players would not be able to use their services (e.g. chocobo rental, teleportation, etc). So, the outcome had an actual lasting impact on players.
Besieged and Campaign Battles were introduced in 2006 and 2007 respectively; 5 and 6 years prior to GW2. Each system was designed with *far* more depth and *far* more impact on the game world and the players than DEs in GW2 do. So, no, ANet hasn't brought anything great or innovative to MMOs with their DE's. It's been done before.
Point is, you can absolutely have large scale content in a PvE MMO, accounting for that first 'M', and it already has been done. It's just that - with so many people wanting more "me" and less "we" in their gameplay, developers haven't explored it very much. It certainly can be done. It just isn't.
And please don't be one of those people who will now move the goal post by modifying or amending your arguments. That's a request not to do it, not a suggestion that you are or will.
You seem to not understand why, after only a month, half of gw2 playerbase is gone for others.
The word is coherency.
In the world you describe, there is no coherency. there is only a long sequence of trivial encounters decided on a dice roll.
Think, a lot of players complain SW:TOR because it has no coherency, because what you have done before doesn't change the future path, Do you really think a series of casual events can be a solution?
I was a DM, I have done some "canvas story", or I have played that, but it's absolutely incomparable to a well written story.
The same difference between an hot dog and a dinner at the fancy restaurant.
Next Step'
Complete world builder where in different parts of the mmo world people create different things, If enough people believe in a God, than a God is created and changes the way that part of the world interacts-how cool would that be
Its funny you say this bcause a) youre wrong about it being for themeparks and b) people are already doing similar things and trying to improve upon them (in the same way that DEs were not 100% original, but an improved version of PQs from Warhammer)
Look up The Repopulation. Sandbox game with a system similar to DEs (though more random and with more impact on the world) currently in alpha testing. Fromt heir features page:
Engagement System
The easiest way to describe the Engagement system in The Repopulation is as a Random and Mutating Public Quest. Engagements occur randomly throughout the world, and depending on how players respond to them they can mutate and spread. Engagements can change the entire content of an area, for better or for worse.
For those unfamiliar with Public Quests, here is a brief overview of that mechanic. Public Quests are shared by all players in an area, at least by those of the appropriate faction. There are objectives, and anyone who contributes to completing those objectives is eligible for a reward upon completion. The level of their contribution affects their chances and quality of loot. Public Quests have been a successful mechanic in several titles, originating with Warhammer Online but also being found in Champions Online, Everquest 2 and Rift. The key advantage of Public Quests is that they encourage teamwork and make it easy for players to meet and cooperate with one another.
So how do our engagements differ from Public Quests? Let's take a look.
Randomly Occurring
Public Quests commonly occurred in static locations and repeated shortly after the previous incarnation of them was complete. Engagements in The Repopulation spawn randomly throughout the world and use any number of different templates. This causes content to mutate and change over time based on elements within and outside of the player's control.
Spreading
Engagement templates can specify a complex chain of stages. Each stage can end when certain specifications are met, or after a period of time. Depending on how an Engagement ended it can progress to a different stage and it can also spread to other nearby Engagement nodes. Those child nodes can in turn continue to spread to children of their own.
To give a functional example of a spreading Engagement we can take a look at the system in the Aemar Mine. Under normal circumstances the mine is filled with standard mission opportunities related to its operations. But there are any number of events that can occur randomly and alter the complex entirely.
One of those scenarios is an invasion by the Lesoo. They will invade through the first floor and if they are not stopped they will barricade themselves in and then begin spreading to the lower levels, one at a time. While a level is occupied by the Lesoo, there will be new mission opportunities, though the old ones are currently defunct until the invaders can be cleared and operations can be restored. This includes new bosses and mini-bosses that grow in power the longer they have occupied the area.
This is just one of several scenarios that can occur in the mines and each alters the mine in one way or another while it is in effect.
World Altering
As Engagements spread, they can completely change the environment of an area. This includes appearances, NPCs, and missions. NPCs can set up permanent camps or defenses that will remain until they are stopped.
Our hope is the Engagement system will prevent content from becoming stale by providing an ever-changing world where the player's actions really do matter.
The concept of "gameplay through time" isnt exactly accurate. Its not where you go, its what you do. How you are immersed into a rich and believable storylines that are engaging and player determined , simply look at Secret World, they completely hit the nail on the head. Creating zones, with a general direction, but also giving players the choice to go where they pleased. So they werent pigeonholed into a linear path. However, they didnt create enough, or look at the end game with an approach to longetivity. Something Funcom repeatedly seem to fail on.
But anyway, back to the point. Alot of MMO's fail to hire good storywriters these are the most important people imo.
TBH im kinda getting fedup with the whole "THIS GAME CHANGES THE MOLD" Hysteria.. Every time a big game comes out its hollar'd out from every corner.. The only games that ever changed the mold were EQ, EVE & WoW... Thats it.. MMO's are set in stone now to be carbon copies of the above and its going to take awhile for them to develop something completely original.. and genre redefining...
In all honesty, the latest "MMORPG CHANGING EVERYTHING" ive found, is minecraft.. Throw in some RPG plugins setup a server, and you've pretty much got your own sandbox MMORPG, where you can build or destroy anything you want.. Classes, races, pvp, quests, w/e How many MMO's can boast that? None..
Sandbox is gonna be the next big changer..
---
Ever since my first dynamic event in everquest, in form of a GM event (which unfortunately stopped again), I have been dreaming of mmorpg worlds with real adventure rather than scripted fights. There is simply nothing like something you are not sure how will play out. Exploring a new area or new quest is just not the same, as you know it is static and even the build in randomness is not very dynamic no matter how good it is made.
Anyways, ever since then I have been dreaming of that world that invited you in, and your "montly fee" would pay for real life Game Masters with the purpose of creating dynamic adventure for the players. Not all the time and not specifically for one person / party, but sometimes .. just the very idea that you are in a dynamic world where everything can and WILL happen could give the magic pen and paper roleplaying has. Might not be doable with a 13$ a month fee, but I am sure there are other options to fund such a thing if you just think outside the box.
Dreams are free and this is mine.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0