Originally posted by Loktofeit There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.
Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.
Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.
Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.
Some people like to play baseball...
Some people like to play golf..
Some people like to play both...
What is the problem with that?
The problem is that playing a team sport is not exactly socializing. This was discussed in another thread too. Incidentally, many people socialize while playing golf. Playing a team sport or not has little to do with socializing.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Loktofeit There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.
Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.
Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.
Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.
Some people like to play baseball...
Some people like to play golf..
Some people like to play both...
What is the problem with that?
The problem is that playing a team sport is not exactly socializing. This was discussed in another thread too. Incidentally, many people socialize while playing golf. Playing a team sport or not has little to do with socializing.
I played hockey for 12 years. I never once saw anyone who never spoke to anyone else on the team once. Everyone talked to each other, we all joked with each other, we all learned together and learned how to work as a team. Not sure how anyone can say playing a team sport doesn't involve socializing.
So you agree with me that people who want mechanics designed to make others interact with them to compensate for their inability to initiate interaction are off their rocker. Thank you.
WOW, I so totally disagree with you, I hope they don't listen to you too often over there at CCP.
(and thanks for insulting we socially inadequate individuals, really appreciate that, not)
But isn't it exactly that? Forcing other people to interact with you. Demand more downtime and group dependancy, lack of LFG tools or auction house... just to make people talk to you. It is mad.
They are all major inconveniences too, you know. And anything forced is generally bad.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I played hockey for 12 years. I never once saw anyone who never spoke to anyone else on the team once. Everyone talked to each other, we all joked with each other, we all learned together and learned how to work as a team. Not sure how anyone can say playing a team sport doesn't involve socializing.
It doesn't need socializing. Believe me I've played my share of teamsports (soccer, volleyball, basketball). You don't need to know everyone in order to play with them. The most "social" experience in sport that I've come across was surprisingly in martial arts - not a teamsport.
If you have spent time in the armed forces, you'd know that an ad hoc group of soldiers can pull together and work as a unit very effectively very quickly. They don't even need to know eachother's names (although it helps somewhat).
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
So you agree with me that people who want mechanics designed to make others interact with them to compensate for their inability to initiate interaction are off their rocker. Thank you.
WOW, I so totally disagree with you, I hope they don't listen to you too often over there at CCP.
(and thanks for insulting we socially inadequate individuals, really appreciate that, not)
But isn't it exactly that? Forcing other people to interact with you. Demand more downtime and group dependancy, lack of LFG tools or auction house... just to make people talk to you. It is mad.
They are all major inconveniences too, you know. And anything forced is generally bad.
Its not forced. Before you play the game most players do research on what the game has to offer and then "makes a choice" to play or not to play. If the choose to play a game that is based on group play "it was your choice".
Stop playing the victim, it was your choice to play the gameknowing what the game is about. And if you didn't do your research, again, it was your choice. But most people will choose to blame the game and not accept they made the wrong choice.
I played hockey for 12 years. I never once saw anyone who never spoke to anyone else on the team once. Everyone talked to each other, we all joked with each other, we all learned together and learned how to work as a team. Not sure how anyone can say playing a team sport doesn't involve socializing.
It doesn't need socializing. Believe me I've played my share of teamsports (soccer, volleyball, basketball). You don't need to know everyone in order to play with them. The most "social" experience in sport that I've come across was surprisingly in martial arts - not a teamsport.
If you have spent time in the armed forces, you'd know that an ad hoc group of soldiers can pull together and work as a unit very effectively very quickly. They don't even need to know eachother's names (although it helps somewhat).
Really, an army analogy? Don't people from the army form some of the closest bonds. Calling each oither brothers and such. I would think that being in the army is one of the most extreme forms of socializing to the point where they have their own culture.
Its obvious you do not know what you are speaking of.
Originally posted by Loktofeit There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.
Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.
Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.
Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.
Some people like to play baseball...
Some people like to play golf..
Some people like to play both...
What is the problem with that?
The problem is that playing a team sport is not exactly socializing. This was discussed in another thread too. Incidentally, many people socialize while playing golf. Playing a team sport or not has little to do with socializing.
I'm guessing from that statement that you never actualy played a team sport.
So you agree with me that people who want mechanics designed to make others interact with them to compensate for their inability to initiate interaction are off their rocker. Thank you.
WOW, I so totally disagree with you, I hope they don't listen to you too often over there at CCP.
(and thanks for insulting we socially inadequate individuals, really appreciate that, not)
But isn't it exactly that? Forcing other people to interact with you. Demand more downtime and group dependancy, lack of LFG tools or auction house... just to make people talk to you. It is mad.
They are all major inconveniences too, you know. And anything forced is generally bad.
You call it forcing, I call it providing the opportunity to socialize.
By removing the opportunity, socialization in MMO's has gone downward, regardless how you look at it you can't disagree with it.
Sometimes people don't realize what is for their own good, nor what they lose by getting their way.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Loktofeit There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.
Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.
Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.
Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.
Some people like to play baseball...
Some people like to play golf..
Some people like to play both...
What is the problem with that?
The problem is that playing a team sport is not exactly socializing. This was discussed in another thread too. Incidentally, many people socialize while playing golf. Playing a team sport or not has little to do with socializing.
Ah golf, now there's an activity that really provides for a lot of downtime between gameplay and therefore is full of socialization, in fact, might be the socialization king in that respect, probably why so many businessmen take up the game.
But same holds true for things like bowling, bridge, and several others, lots of opportunity to socialize due to the slower paced gameplay.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In the early days of MMO's, I think it's safe to say that a large portion of MMO players were typically less social in real life. The anonymity of online gaming coupled with a community of mature, like-minded players allowed these types of players to really break out of their social shells in an online virtual world.
Once the flood gates opened with WoW, many players who found comfort in their MMO communities were suddenly overrun with every type of personality and maturity level. I'm sure this forced many of the old school players to seek refuge in close-knit guilds where they could continue to hang with like-minded people without being bothered by the masses.
Fast forward to 2012, many MMO companies continue to market to younger, less intelligent customers who are focused on instant gratification. This demographic does not mix well with target audience of original MMO's which is turning many community contributors from back in the day to look for new, less infiltrated forms of entertainment.
At the end of the day, I enjoy MMO's and I'm glad that the industry is doing well but I definitely miss the days when communities actually worked together to make the MMO experience truly epic.
I honestly do want my MMO's to not only encourage cooperation and communication, I want the player to be sharply disadvantaged if they refuse to do so.
It seems that with every launch that I've bothered to participate in the chat channels at best are a billboard for flame wars and at their worst just an empty box wasting space.
Everyones soloing everything, dungeons and storyline instances are being designed almost entirely for the solo player and the users themselves intentionally isolate themselves from the populace barely associating with their pre-existing niche groups. In fact, most groups I find that would be label elitists are generally the ones more willing to reach out to unknown individuals to offer and to request help.
Ironic, I would think, that a genre founded by stereotyped sociophobes is losing its social elements as a wider range of people partake.
I agree with this. We REALLY do need more cooperative gameplay and less solo play in MMOs. It doesn't have to be forced in the sense that you can't accomplish litterally anything without it but it needs to be there for future MMOs. It is a very realistic expectation to have that MMOs should be social experiences.
I played hockey for 12 years. I never once saw anyone who never spoke to anyone else on the team once. Everyone talked to each other, we all joked with each other, we all learned together and learned how to work as a team. Not sure how anyone can say playing a team sport doesn't involve socializing.
It doesn't need socializing. Believe me I've played my share of teamsports (soccer, volleyball, basketball). You don't need to know everyone in order to play with them. The most "social" experience in sport that I've come across was surprisingly in martial arts - not a teamsport.
If you have spent time in the armed forces, you'd know that an ad hoc group of soldiers can pull together and work as a unit very effectively very quickly. They don't even need to know eachother's names (although it helps somewhat).
People get more social once their activity they do is more long-term and complex.
So if you go out to join some group of strangers playing volleyball at public playplace - then if you just go there play and leave - you won't and you don't need to get known these people. You might not even know their names. Even if you play there repeadetly.
On the other hand if you would make team to train for weeks or months and participate seriously in some kind of tournament - then it is much bigger propability that you will naturaly sociazlize, cooperate, make bonds or even start to know each other. If those bonds will surviwe post tournament and will evolve into something more than just playing volleyball like friendship? Not necessarily. Still it above situation has high chance to create socializing than above more casual playing.
Of course in both situations it is possible to socialize and in both it is possible not to - just odds and natural drive in those situation are very diffrent.
THis isn't just tied to MMO gamers. People in general, out in the world, are anti-social by nature. Not all mind you, but most.
It is the belief of many that others should be willing to interact with them, overlooking the fact that if they would speak up as well, they may get the interaction that they are looking for. It's general laziness. It's far easier to come and complain about people being unfriendly than to be friendly yourself and initiate that interaction in the first place.
It's like having a friend that never invites you places, but gets upset the very second that you forget to invite them. People today feel as though they are entitled to interaction, and that they don't need to do anything to get it. It's too difficult, so they stand up and piss about it.
Not all people are like that, but again, the vast majority of people are. And especially so when you're outside of their little social bubble. Thank about it.
As it applies to the MMO scene, if there is a chat system that allows you to communicate with others, then it is not a games flaw that causes anti-social behavior.
I think it's a mixture of whether someone wants be be social and reasons there are to be social.
If the point of a game is to battle for levels, craft things to put them in a digital market and progress a storyline don't expect people to be more social than they would be otherwise. In GW2 there is more naturally cohesive grouping than anything I've seen. More conversations? Probably not as it's fast paced.
Is this bad? Not really, those things can be fun and been integral to MMOs for a while now. If you want more or think there should be more socialization hope for things like tavern mini games, dancing or music systems like LotRO. Create a reason for socializing more.
I played hockey for 12 years. I never once saw anyone who never spoke to anyone else on the team once. Everyone talked to each other, we all joked with each other, we all learned together and learned how to work as a team. Not sure how anyone can say playing a team sport doesn't involve socializing.
It doesn't need socializing. Believe me I've played my share of teamsports (soccer, volleyball, basketball). You don't need to know everyone in order to play with them. The most "social" experience in sport that I've come across was surprisingly in martial arts - not a teamsport.
If you have spent time in the armed forces, you'd know that an ad hoc group of soldiers can pull together and work as a unit very effectively very quickly. They don't even need to know eachother's names (although it helps somewhat).
Really, an army analogy? Don't people from the army form some of the closest bonds. Calling each oither brothers and such. I would think that being in the army is one of the most extreme forms of socializing to the point where they have their own culture.
Its obvious you do not know what you are speaking of.
Discussion over.
Yes, his analogy fails completely. While it's possible for soldiers who are trained for a particular position to perform with relative effectiveness even when working with other individuals they've never met...the very act of going through those experiences tends to tighten bonds between them. If those individuals are together for more then a single short engagement they most definately will form social bonds with one another.
There is also a reason that the millitary doesn't work off of ad-hoc forces as a rule but organizes thier forces into regular UNITS who regularly train, work and live together....because doing so makes them FAR more effective as a force then adhoc arrangements even when individuals are well trained for thier positions. The British Regimental system took it so far that an enlisted soldier would serve in the regiment he was assigned for his entire career. Individuals in the millitary are extremely closely bonded to those whom they serve with. The Marines have a saying "Country, God, Corps, Unit."
What Quirhid makes the mistake is equating playing Team Sports as "showing up for a single game"...it's NOT. Even within the context of a single game, socialization and bonding will start to occur...but obviously it won't be all that strong compared with teams that play together over the course of an entire season or multiple seasons.
This even holds true in most work environments. When you work with other people and your jobs are interrelated or interdependent you tend to form social bonds with them. When you work independantly of others, you are less likely to form said bonnds, though it's still possible.
Of course there are some people who strongly dislike socialization or forming bonds with others and will try to avoid doing so whenever possible, there is a word for that....misanthrope.
Really, an army analogy? Don't people from the army form some of the closest bonds. Calling each oither brothers and such. I would think that being in the army is one of the most extreme forms of socializing to the point where they have their own culture.
Its obvious you do not know what you are speaking of.
Discussion over.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by Quirhid
I'm guessing from that statement that you never actualy played a team sport.
Ad hominem, ad hominem. I expected more from you guys.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Ah golf, now there's an activity that really provides for a lot of downtime between gameplay and therefore is full of socialization, in fact, might be the socialization king in that respect, probably why so many businessmen take up the game.
But same holds true for things like bowling, bridge, and several others, lots of opportunity to socialize due to the slower paced gameplay.
Thank you for enforcing my point. Indeed, the pace of the gameplay has much more effect on socializing than playing in a team or not.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Its an interesting topic. IMO many ppl like myself aren't as social due to oh.....anti religious bigotry, cursing, political talk, chuck Norris jokes, raping women, sexual comments, some idiot in pvp bitching team cause he/she can't win all the time, drug usage, teenage like talk in chat, alcoholics in guild chats, etc etc etc. There are many more examples. Many people like myself just want to play a game without all the BS. I don't wanna hear about your rectal exam in chat channel or would I prefer to have sex with a female jawa or female Wookiee.
IMO if game makers got a tight grip on the chat channels and not just have profanity filters. This would go a long way to sell a grouping mmorpg better. It's not a end all solution but it would sure help.
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Yes, his analogy fails completely. While it's possible for soldiers who are trained for a particular position to perform with relative effectiveness even when working with other individuals they've never met...the very act of going through those experiences tends to tighten bonds between them. If those individuals are together for more then a single short engagement they most definately will form social bonds with one another.
There is also a reason that the millitary doesn't work off of ad-hoc forces as a rule but organizes thier forces into regular UNITS who regularly train, work and live together....because doing so makes them FAR more effective as a force then adhoc arrangements even when individuals are well trained for thier positions. The British Regimental system took it so far that an enlisted soldier would serve in the regiment he was assigned for his entire career. Individuals in the millitary are extremely closely bonded to those whom they serve with. The Marines have a saying "Country, God, Corps, Unit."
What Quirhid makes the mistake is equating playing Team Sports as "showing up for a single game"...it's NOT. Even within the context of a single game, socialization and bonding will start to occur...but obviously it won't be all that strong compared with teams that play together over the course of an entire season or multiple seasons.
This even holds true in most work environments. When you work with other people and your jobs are interrelated or interdependent you tend to form social bonds with them. When you work independantly of others, you are less likely to form said bonnds, though it's still possible.
Of course there are some people who strongly dislike socialization or forming bonds with others and will try to avoid doing so whenever possible, there is a word for that....misanthrope.
OK, now you show your ignorance. It is an exercise. The point of putting soldiers in an ad hoc group is to develop teamwork, communication, ingenuity, train leadership skills and gauge individuals.
But you go on with your red herring rant how the military works...
I am unlikely to develop social bonds in pick-up games or pick-up teams. Similarly I do not develop them in
pick-up groups for dungeon runs or PvP
on a half-hour long boat ride
or engaging in trade
Like I mentioned in my reply to Kyleran, the pace of gameplay is much more relevant than group vs solo play. I am on VOIP with my friends almost all the time I'm playing a game solo or not. Playing solo doesn't make me anti-social. I just don't want to socialize with completely random people I'm unlikely to see twice in my lifetime.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
THis isn't just tied to MMO gamers. People in general, out in the world, are anti-social by nature. Not all mind you, but most.
Actually, the opposite is true. Humans have evolved as herd animals. They actualy have a strong biological need for social interaction....to the point where if they are deprived of siginificant social interaction for extended periods they will tend to become deeply deepressed, manic, even insane ( think Tom Hanks talikng to his soccer ball in "Cast Away"). This has been well documented.
However, I believe what you are observing is part of another instinct...fear of the "Unkown". We have evolved an ingrained instinct to fear the "Unkown". There is good reason for this, as we evolved, the world was a very dangerous place, what you didn't know could easly kill or harm you. This includes other human beings. Most of us are perfectly happy/comfortable interacting with other individuals in our own "tribe/community"....but when we meet "Strangers" there is a natural sense of anxiety there as they are "Unkown" to us, we have no idea what thier intentions might be. It's why one of the most common greetings in many languages/cultures is "Peace" along with a raised open hand, anouncing specificaly that we don't mean the other any harm and visualy demonstrating it by showing we do not have a weapon at the ready.
This natural anxiety about strangers carries through even to today, even in the digital world. Some people feel it more strongly then others but virtualy everyone feels it to some degree. Once you are familiar with the person, you generaly feel much more at ease interacting with them. So in environments where individuals are constantly surrounded by strangers people are going to tend to come off as "anti-social" when compared to environments where individuals are surrounded by people who are familiar with them. That's part of the reason why big cities often have a reputation as "unfriendly" places when compared to small towns.
Now, when you create a situation where people NEED to interact with each other and work together in some meaningfull fashion then that helps to overcome that initial anxiety of the unkown and they are more likely to engage in social interaction. The same thing occurs when you learn some information about another individual through indirect means. For example if you hear from everyone at the office how X is a really nice, freindly guy who enjoys bowling...when you run into X you are going to have alot less anxiety about it, because he's not really so much of an unkown quantity anymore.
There are 3 primary reasons why mmo's limit social behavior:
1. Mmo's now are played largely by video game players without a background in RPG gaming or even first and second gen mmorpg's (and precursors). They have not learned how to socialize outside their core online friends and have come from games where everyone outside of their own friends is the competition so they are trained to see other players as the opposition.
2. Social communication has not evolved past clumsy chat based interfaces in the past %$@&;ing 20 years! Mmorpg's were once created as the next stage in evolution to traditional RPG’s and muds. Somewhere along the way the developers COMPLETELY forgot this and concentrated on converting mmo's into small group playgrounds. This is the single greatest failure to the mmo concept yet hardly anyone is aware of it. Voice alone is not a solution as few use it to enhance rp. In fact its implementation has been such that it stunts rp and further breaks immersion. Voice is not the answer. The new SOEmote tech is the very first evolution in mmo role-play/immersion mechanics since adding graphics to a game (As text has always been there even in mud days). Perhaps voice triggered voice emotes is the next step as the result maintains character concept and is not distracting to those in game. Players without any rp experience do not understand that any introduction of your real personality breaks immersion completely. Tools must enhance the players interaction with their character yet not usurp it's function.
3. Mmo's have been developed from the ground up as an anti-social game. Cooperation is automatic with auto-grouping tools, dungeon finders etc. Gameplay has become increasingly easier from character creation to cap. No matter what tools are implemented in game social interaction will not be increased and nurtured without the need to actually interact. There is a reason why older mmo's are much more social. Not because they had better tools (in fact they were worse which proves that tools alone are not the answer) but because the game forced you to interact with others to accomplish goals.
Basically ... stop blaming the player. Human nature has not changed in thousands of years. New tech only exploits the core nature of humans. Their response is very predictable. The blame is largely placed upon the developers for being utterly ignorant to this.
I'll keep saying this until people start listening. While there are more anti-social solo players these days, this is *also a problem with modern themepark design*.
These games are not designed to foster player relationships anymore. The best you are going to get is little cliques of people in your Guild playing in voice chat, ignoring everyone else, in most cases.
The auction house, lame crafting and trading, lack of player interdependence, zero social features, zero non-combat professions, etc, are a huge part of the problem. When you put players in a game where talking and working with others is part of the design, more people will do so.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
So you agree with me that people who want mechanics designed to make others interact with them to compensate for their inability to initiate interaction are off their rocker. Thank you.
WOW, I so totally disagree with you, I hope they don't listen to you too often over there at CCP.
(and thanks for insulting we socially inadequate individuals, really appreciate that, not)
But isn't it exactly that? Forcing other people to interact with you. Demand more downtime and group dependancy, lack of LFG tools or auction house... just to make people talk to you. It is mad.
They are all major inconveniences too, you know. And anything forced is generally bad.
You call it forcing, I call it providing the opportunity to socialize.
By removing the opportunity, socialization in MMO's has gone downward, regardless how you look at it you can't disagree with it.
Sometimes people don't realize what is for their own good, nor what they lose by getting their way.
Kyleran, I don't think you're following. Neither Quirhid nor I said anything about not offering opportunity for socializing. I have been an advocate of more community tools and more social tools for over 15 years now. There is a big difference between a) content created as venues or mechanics for socializing and b) the request for some for an absence of content solely to create awkward situations so that otehrs have nothing to do other than talk to them.
In UO, we'd hit a dungeon or hack through a spawn area and when we were done we'd go back to Kazola's or the YMCA or Serpent's Cross Tavern or simply the bank and hang out and chat, screw around, trade etc. When I say "we" I mean that most players did that in one form or another. The opportunity - the resources, the tools and the locations - to meet up with like-minded individuals and socialize was always present and those that want to socialize make use of them. That is what is missing from many modern MMOs.
If you look at the branch of the thread you are responding to,you have taken one sentence about a fraction of the people that want grouping because they believe it will create socializing (Quote: "wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.") and you seem to have either changed that around or misintepreted it to mean that we do not want opportunity for socializing. No one said or suggested that at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, his analogy fails completely. While it's possible for soldiers who are trained for a particular position to perform with relative effectiveness even when working with other individuals they've never met...the very act of going through those experiences tends to tighten bonds between them. If those individuals are together for more then a single short engagement they most definately will form social bonds with one another.
There is also a reason that the millitary doesn't work off of ad-hoc forces as a rule but organizes thier forces into regular UNITS who regularly train, work and live together....because doing so makes them FAR more effective as a force then adhoc arrangements even when individuals are well trained for thier positions. The British Regimental system took it so far that an enlisted soldier would serve in the regiment he was assigned for his entire career. Individuals in the millitary are extremely closely bonded to those whom they serve with. The Marines have a saying "Country, God, Corps, Unit."
What Quirhid makes the mistake is equating playing Team Sports as "showing up for a single game"...it's NOT. Even within the context of a single game, socialization and bonding will start to occur...but obviously it won't be all that strong compared with teams that play together over the course of an entire season or multiple seasons.
This even holds true in most work environments. When you work with other people and your jobs are interrelated or interdependent you tend to form social bonds with them. When you work independantly of others, you are less likely to form said bonnds, though it's still possible.
Of course there are some people who strongly dislike socialization or forming bonds with others and will try to avoid doing so whenever possible, there is a word for that....misanthrope.
OK, now you show your ignorance. It is an exercise. The point of putting soldiers in an ad hoc group is to develop teamwork, communication, ingenuity, train leadership skills and gauge individuals.
But you go on with your red herring rant how the military works...
I am unlikely to develop social bonds in pick-up games or pick-up teams. Similarly I do not develop them in
pick-up groups for dungeon runs or PvP
on a half-hour long boat ride
or engaging in trade
Like I mentioned in my reply to Kyleran, the pace of gameplay is much more relevant than group vs solo play. I am on VOIP with my friends almost all the time I'm playing a game solo or not. Playing solo doesn't make me anti-social. I just don't want to socialize with completely random people I'm unlikely to see twice in my lifetime.
No you kinda MADE my point. Putting soldiers together into ad hoc groups helps them get more familiar with the concept of working in that fashion because that is something which MIGHT happen in actual combat where soldiers can get seperated from thier units, units can get disorganized, mixed up or need to be folded into one another due to casualties.
In actual combat (not excersizes), higher level commanders try REALLY, REALLY hard to avoid such situations because they know combat effectiveness tends to go down significantly when units become disorganized and are working with unfamiliar organizations. The point of the type of excersize you described is to try to mitigate those negative effects to some degree. However my point still stands, the way millitaries work "as a rule" (you conveniently ignored this portion of my post) is to organize thier forces into regular units who live, work and train together because they know that's how forces will operate most effectively.
Furthermore you ignored my directly stated point that playing a "Team Sport" does not equate to showing up for a single game (e.g. PUG dungeon run) once....if you think it does then you REALLY haven't experienced "Team Sports"....you've experienced random pickup games. Even in a single game, unless you are a misanthrope, social interaction will start to happen...but obviously it's alot weaker then playing an entire season together.
The reason why PUG's for random PVE dungeons don't encourage tighter bonds is that they tend to be very short and don't really require a high degree of interaction or coordination for success. The mechanics are dirt simple and how each player needs to perform each time never really changes that much because the situation is entirely scripted. Compare that to something like a football game where the opposition is actively reacting to your play...and your team needs to figure out how to adapt it's play to that and figure out and communicate how each members role works into that adaptation.
In PUG PvP you may not interact much to coordinate efforts but I pretty much assure you that if the games mechanics have any depth at all, 9 times out of 10 you are going to get rolled by a similarly sized opposition which does and which is used to working together as a team.
Comments
The problem is that playing a team sport is not exactly socializing. This was discussed in another thread too. Incidentally, many people socialize while playing golf. Playing a team sport or not has little to do with socializing.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I played hockey for 12 years. I never once saw anyone who never spoke to anyone else on the team once. Everyone talked to each other, we all joked with each other, we all learned together and learned how to work as a team. Not sure how anyone can say playing a team sport doesn't involve socializing.
But isn't it exactly that? Forcing other people to interact with you. Demand more downtime and group dependancy, lack of LFG tools or auction house... just to make people talk to you. It is mad.
They are all major inconveniences too, you know. And anything forced is generally bad.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It doesn't need socializing. Believe me I've played my share of teamsports (soccer, volleyball, basketball). You don't need to know everyone in order to play with them. The most "social" experience in sport that I've come across was surprisingly in martial arts - not a teamsport.
If you have spent time in the armed forces, you'd know that an ad hoc group of soldiers can pull together and work as a unit very effectively very quickly. They don't even need to know eachother's names (although it helps somewhat).
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Its not forced. Before you play the game most players do research on what the game has to offer and then "makes a choice" to play or not to play. If the choose to play a game that is based on group play "it was your choice".
Stop playing the victim, it was your choice to play the gameknowing what the game is about. And if you didn't do your research, again, it was your choice. But most people will choose to blame the game and not accept they made the wrong choice.
Really, an army analogy? Don't people from the army form some of the closest bonds. Calling each oither brothers and such. I would think that being in the army is one of the most extreme forms of socializing to the point where they have their own culture.
Its obvious you do not know what you are speaking of.
Discussion over.
I'm guessing from that statement that you never actualy played a team sport.
You call it forcing, I call it providing the opportunity to socialize.
By removing the opportunity, socialization in MMO's has gone downward, regardless how you look at it you can't disagree with it.
Sometimes people don't realize what is for their own good, nor what they lose by getting their way.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ah golf, now there's an activity that really provides for a lot of downtime between gameplay and therefore is full of socialization, in fact, might be the socialization king in that respect, probably why so many businessmen take up the game.
But same holds true for things like bowling, bridge, and several others, lots of opportunity to socialize due to the slower paced gameplay.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In the early days of MMO's, I think it's safe to say that a large portion of MMO players were typically less social in real life. The anonymity of online gaming coupled with a community of mature, like-minded players allowed these types of players to really break out of their social shells in an online virtual world.
Once the flood gates opened with WoW, many players who found comfort in their MMO communities were suddenly overrun with every type of personality and maturity level. I'm sure this forced many of the old school players to seek refuge in close-knit guilds where they could continue to hang with like-minded people without being bothered by the masses.
Fast forward to 2012, many MMO companies continue to market to younger, less intelligent customers who are focused on instant gratification. This demographic does not mix well with target audience of original MMO's which is turning many community contributors from back in the day to look for new, less infiltrated forms of entertainment.
At the end of the day, I enjoy MMO's and I'm glad that the industry is doing well but I definitely miss the days when communities actually worked together to make the MMO experience truly epic.
I agree with this. We REALLY do need more cooperative gameplay and less solo play in MMOs. It doesn't have to be forced in the sense that you can't accomplish litterally anything without it but it needs to be there for future MMOs. It is a very realistic expectation to have that MMOs should be social experiences.
People get more social once their activity they do is more long-term and complex.
So if you go out to join some group of strangers playing volleyball at public playplace - then if you just go there play and leave - you won't and you don't need to get known these people. You might not even know their names. Even if you play there repeadetly.
On the other hand if you would make team to train for weeks or months and participate seriously in some kind of tournament - then it is much bigger propability that you will naturaly sociazlize, cooperate, make bonds or even start to know each other. If those bonds will surviwe post tournament and will evolve into something more than just playing volleyball like friendship? Not necessarily. Still it above situation has high chance to create socializing than above more casual playing.
Of course in both situations it is possible to socialize and in both it is possible not to - just odds and natural drive in those situation are very diffrent.
THis isn't just tied to MMO gamers. People in general, out in the world, are anti-social by nature. Not all mind you, but most.
It is the belief of many that others should be willing to interact with them, overlooking the fact that if they would speak up as well, they may get the interaction that they are looking for. It's general laziness. It's far easier to come and complain about people being unfriendly than to be friendly yourself and initiate that interaction in the first place.
It's like having a friend that never invites you places, but gets upset the very second that you forget to invite them. People today feel as though they are entitled to interaction, and that they don't need to do anything to get it. It's too difficult, so they stand up and piss about it.
Not all people are like that, but again, the vast majority of people are. And especially so when you're outside of their little social bubble. Thank about it.
As it applies to the MMO scene, if there is a chat system that allows you to communicate with others, then it is not a games flaw that causes anti-social behavior.
If the point of a game is to battle for levels, craft things to put them in a digital market and progress a storyline don't expect people to be more social than they would be otherwise. In GW2 there is more naturally cohesive grouping than anything I've seen. More conversations? Probably not as it's fast paced.
Is this bad? Not really, those things can be fun and been integral to MMOs for a while now. If you want more or think there should be more socialization hope for things like tavern mini games, dancing or music systems like LotRO. Create a reason for socializing more.
Yes, his analogy fails completely. While it's possible for soldiers who are trained for a particular position to perform with relative effectiveness even when working with other individuals they've never met...the very act of going through those experiences tends to tighten bonds between them. If those individuals are together for more then a single short engagement they most definately will form social bonds with one another.
There is also a reason that the millitary doesn't work off of ad-hoc forces as a rule but organizes thier forces into regular UNITS who regularly train, work and live together....because doing so makes them FAR more effective as a force then adhoc arrangements even when individuals are well trained for thier positions. The British Regimental system took it so far that an enlisted soldier would serve in the regiment he was assigned for his entire career. Individuals in the millitary are extremely closely bonded to those whom they serve with. The Marines have a saying "Country, God, Corps, Unit."
What Quirhid makes the mistake is equating playing Team Sports as "showing up for a single game"...it's NOT. Even within the context of a single game, socialization and bonding will start to occur...but obviously it won't be all that strong compared with teams that play together over the course of an entire season or multiple seasons.
This even holds true in most work environments. When you work with other people and your jobs are interrelated or interdependent you tend to form social bonds with them. When you work independantly of others, you are less likely to form said bonnds, though it's still possible.
Of course there are some people who strongly dislike socialization or forming bonds with others and will try to avoid doing so whenever possible, there is a word for that....misanthrope.
Ad hominem, ad hominem. I expected more from you guys.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Thank you for enforcing my point. Indeed, the pace of the gameplay has much more effect on socializing than playing in a team or not.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Its an interesting topic. IMO many ppl like myself aren't as social due to oh.....anti religious bigotry, cursing, political talk, chuck Norris jokes, raping women, sexual comments, some idiot in pvp bitching team cause he/she can't win all the time, drug usage, teenage like talk in chat, alcoholics in guild chats, etc etc etc. There are many more examples. Many people like myself just want to play a game without all the BS. I don't wanna hear about your rectal exam in chat channel or would I prefer to have sex with a female jawa or female Wookiee.
IMO if game makers got a tight grip on the chat channels and not just have profanity filters. This would go a long way to sell a grouping mmorpg better. It's not a end all solution but it would sure help.
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
OK, now you show your ignorance. It is an exercise. The point of putting soldiers in an ad hoc group is to develop teamwork, communication, ingenuity, train leadership skills and gauge individuals.
But you go on with your red herring rant how the military works...
I am unlikely to develop social bonds in pick-up games or pick-up teams. Similarly I do not develop them in
Like I mentioned in my reply to Kyleran, the pace of gameplay is much more relevant than group vs solo play. I am on VOIP with my friends almost all the time I'm playing a game solo or not. Playing solo doesn't make me anti-social. I just don't want to socialize with completely random people I'm unlikely to see twice in my lifetime.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Actually, the opposite is true. Humans have evolved as herd animals. They actualy have a strong biological need for social interaction....to the point where if they are deprived of siginificant social interaction for extended periods they will tend to become deeply deepressed, manic, even insane ( think Tom Hanks talikng to his soccer ball in "Cast Away"). This has been well documented.
However, I believe what you are observing is part of another instinct...fear of the "Unkown". We have evolved an ingrained instinct to fear the "Unkown". There is good reason for this, as we evolved, the world was a very dangerous place, what you didn't know could easly kill or harm you. This includes other human beings. Most of us are perfectly happy/comfortable interacting with other individuals in our own "tribe/community"....but when we meet "Strangers" there is a natural sense of anxiety there as they are "Unkown" to us, we have no idea what thier intentions might be. It's why one of the most common greetings in many languages/cultures is "Peace" along with a raised open hand, anouncing specificaly that we don't mean the other any harm and visualy demonstrating it by showing we do not have a weapon at the ready.
This natural anxiety about strangers carries through even to today, even in the digital world. Some people feel it more strongly then others but virtualy everyone feels it to some degree. Once you are familiar with the person, you generaly feel much more at ease interacting with them. So in environments where individuals are constantly surrounded by strangers people are going to tend to come off as "anti-social" when compared to environments where individuals are surrounded by people who are familiar with them. That's part of the reason why big cities often have a reputation as "unfriendly" places when compared to small towns.
Now, when you create a situation where people NEED to interact with each other and work together in some meaningfull fashion then that helps to overcome that initial anxiety of the unkown and they are more likely to engage in social interaction. The same thing occurs when you learn some information about another individual through indirect means. For example if you hear from everyone at the office how X is a really nice, freindly guy who enjoys bowling...when you run into X you are going to have alot less anxiety about it, because he's not really so much of an unkown quantity anymore.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
*continues to quietly stare at you*
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
First of all stop over generalizing.
There are 3 primary reasons why mmo's limit social behavior:
1. Mmo's now are played largely by video game players without a background in RPG gaming or even first and second gen mmorpg's (and precursors). They have not learned how to socialize outside their core online friends and have come from games where everyone outside of their own friends is the competition so they are trained to see other players as the opposition.
2. Social communication has not evolved past clumsy chat based interfaces in the past %$@&;ing 20 years! Mmorpg's were once created as the next stage in evolution to traditional RPG’s and muds. Somewhere along the way the developers COMPLETELY forgot this and concentrated on converting mmo's into small group playgrounds. This is the single greatest failure to the mmo concept yet hardly anyone is aware of it. Voice alone is not a solution as few use it to enhance rp. In fact its implementation has been such that it stunts rp and further breaks immersion. Voice is not the answer. The new SOEmote tech is the very first evolution in mmo role-play/immersion mechanics since adding graphics to a game (As text has always been there even in mud days). Perhaps voice triggered voice emotes is the next step as the result maintains character concept and is not distracting to those in game. Players without any rp experience do not understand that any introduction of your real personality breaks immersion completely. Tools must enhance the players interaction with their character yet not usurp it's function.
3. Mmo's have been developed from the ground up as an anti-social game. Cooperation is automatic with auto-grouping tools, dungeon finders etc. Gameplay has become increasingly easier from character creation to cap. No matter what tools are implemented in game social interaction will not be increased and nurtured without the need to actually interact. There is a reason why older mmo's are much more social. Not because they had better tools (in fact they were worse which proves that tools alone are not the answer) but because the game forced you to interact with others to accomplish goals.
Basically ... stop blaming the player. Human nature has not changed in thousands of years. New tech only exploits the core nature of humans. Their response is very predictable. The blame is largely placed upon the developers for being utterly ignorant to this.
You stay sassy!
I'll keep saying this until people start listening. While there are more anti-social solo players these days, this is *also a problem with modern themepark design*.
These games are not designed to foster player relationships anymore. The best you are going to get is little cliques of people in your Guild playing in voice chat, ignoring everyone else, in most cases.
The auction house, lame crafting and trading, lack of player interdependence, zero social features, zero non-combat professions, etc, are a huge part of the problem. When you put players in a game where talking and working with others is part of the design, more people will do so.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Kyleran, I don't think you're following. Neither Quirhid nor I said anything about not offering opportunity for socializing. I have been an advocate of more community tools and more social tools for over 15 years now. There is a big difference between a) content created as venues or mechanics for socializing and b) the request for some for an absence of content solely to create awkward situations so that otehrs have nothing to do other than talk to them.
In UO, we'd hit a dungeon or hack through a spawn area and when we were done we'd go back to Kazola's or the YMCA or Serpent's Cross Tavern or simply the bank and hang out and chat, screw around, trade etc. When I say "we" I mean that most players did that in one form or another. The opportunity - the resources, the tools and the locations - to meet up with like-minded individuals and socialize was always present and those that want to socialize make use of them. That is what is missing from many modern MMOs.
If you look at the branch of the thread you are responding to,you have taken one sentence about a fraction of the people that want grouping because they believe it will create socializing (Quote: "wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.") and you seem to have either changed that around or misintepreted it to mean that we do not want opportunity for socializing. No one said or suggested that at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No you kinda MADE my point. Putting soldiers together into ad hoc groups helps them get more familiar with the concept of working in that fashion because that is something which MIGHT happen in actual combat where soldiers can get seperated from thier units, units can get disorganized, mixed up or need to be folded into one another due to casualties.
In actual combat (not excersizes), higher level commanders try REALLY, REALLY hard to avoid such situations because they know combat effectiveness tends to go down significantly when units become disorganized and are working with unfamiliar organizations. The point of the type of excersize you described is to try to mitigate those negative effects to some degree. However my point still stands, the way millitaries work "as a rule" (you conveniently ignored this portion of my post) is to organize thier forces into regular units who live, work and train together because they know that's how forces will operate most effectively.
Furthermore you ignored my directly stated point that playing a "Team Sport" does not equate to showing up for a single game (e.g. PUG dungeon run) once....if you think it does then you REALLY haven't experienced "Team Sports"....you've experienced random pickup games. Even in a single game, unless you are a misanthrope, social interaction will start to happen...but obviously it's alot weaker then playing an entire season together.
The reason why PUG's for random PVE dungeons don't encourage tighter bonds is that they tend to be very short and don't really require a high degree of interaction or coordination for success. The mechanics are dirt simple and how each player needs to perform each time never really changes that much because the situation is entirely scripted. Compare that to something like a football game where the opposition is actively reacting to your play...and your team needs to figure out how to adapt it's play to that and figure out and communicate how each members role works into that adaptation.
In PUG PvP you may not interact much to coordinate efforts but I pretty much assure you that if the games mechanics have any depth at all, 9 times out of 10 you are going to get rolled by a similarly sized opposition which does and which is used to working together as a team.