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What Happened To The Vision?
MindTrigger
Member Posts: 2,596
From my perspective, the game's lore, world and even a lot of the gameplay are great in many ways. I've talked about that many times, but that's not what this post is about.
Funcom failed to understand the market for this game. The truly and utterly bizarre thing about TSW for me, was how the early community was shaped by the forums and then the ARG, litteraly YEARS ago. Anyone who was around way, way back during the initial announcement and creation of the forums remembers that even before there was an ARG, there were a bunch of people on the forums every day, talking about what they wanted to see in the game, and even getting into some great role playing posts. The ARG later added to this and a really neat community of interesting people was coming together.
The detail in the discussions had there was incredible, and the vision for the game that was put forth by the forum users is so far and above better than what was actually delivered, it's astonishing. Now I know our imaginations are much deeper than what may be viable for an MMO game at this stage, but the problem was that Funcom created the perfect setting for a deeper, more hybrid and very socially driven game. This is what I stuck around on the forums for, and why I followed the game development constantly.
The community on the boards was a very diverse group that was ready for something more. Many people wanted opt-in faction PVP, they wanted a deep crafting and RPG game, and they wanted a dark, adult setting. What we got was a fantastic clothing and armor (talisman) system that allowed us to make truly personal and unique characters, a very cool customizable (to some extent) skill wheel, a beatiful game world, and a then a COMPLETELY WATERED DOWN THEMEPARK GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE.
And there you have the crux of the problem. The game is NOT designed for those people hanging out on the forums. It is not even close to the game that such a setting and even the ARG seemed to promise. It is not a haven for RP, grouping, crafting or any other type of truly social gameplay. It is not a game for book readers and people with real imaginations and dreams of magic or mystery. It is just a themepark, and along with that, pretty much everything wrong with themepark games in the year 2012. It's not even really an adult game, trading the occasional F-bomb for what could have been a much darker and mature setting. Shit or get off the pot, Funcom.
As themeparks go, TSW is very well done although far too short and too much of a dungeon grinder endgame to uphold a subscription model. Dreams of monthly updates should never have been something they relied upon. The real problem from my perspective is that this game should have never been a pure themepark, trinity, dungeon grind game. Never, ever. It should have relied much more on open, player-driven and emergent gameplay so that the vision the players had for it would have had a much better chance of being a reality. Had the game been designed with this in mind, the players could have taken it to heights not even planned or imagined by the developers. It's hard to look back on the forums and ARG of ages ago and see how they had anything at all to do with this current game.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Comments
I felt like the game was designed for people who weren't likely to ever play an MMORPG. Basically, literary types interested in urban fantasy with a spy thriller flavor. I'm not sure there are a lot of gamers that really fit into this category.
It wouldn't surprise me if people interested in the ARGs or the Facebook game weren't all that interested in the MMORPG, because the released MMORPG isn't really that much like the ARGs or the Facebook game.
Well, whatever the case, they do seem to be finding people to play the game and they've cut enough people to remain profitable with the game, so maybe things will really turn around for the game in the future.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
To be more concrete, I think Tornquist and his team managed to create a killer setting and lore, which imo would do very well when used for movies, tv series, books or singleplayer games too, to me it's that flexible and great as an IP. Atmosphere and vibe are immersive, questing has an intriguing touch, and the no classes, no levels approach and minecraftish way of crafting shows that they strived to do things differently from the norm. Also I like that they upped the difficulty/thinking level of the gameplay, and this not only in Investigation Missions.Of course, there are enough things that can be improved upon or could've been done better: personally I'd have preferred a Tabula Rasa/Fallen Earth or maybe even Planetside approach to the gun combat, but I can see how completely different mechanics for slash weapons and shooting weapons can be extra burdensome. The world is fairly small, being able to rent an appartment in London or NY - housing - would be great, and the RvR feels like a last-minute alternative when their initial idea, the huge underground persistent open-world RvR area where you could harvest mana was discarded.
But considering how difficult a beast an MMORPG can be, they did alright. There's enough room and potential for enhanced gameplay and additional features that can make it all better though.Agree with this. They did good considering nothing like this has been tried before.
I agree with smh_alot as well, the gameplay is pretty impressive, I don't think it's watered down. But ofc I wouldn't poke ARG/facebook even with a stick, so I cannot know for sure
I was waiting for TSW from the start, 'cos I like Ragnar's work (ok, Dreamfall was too short and too easy, but yeah, even Dreamfall), and I expected something like that: exploration, brainwork, good lore and story, just now in an mmo setting. TSW delivered that, so I'm good with it.
Could it be better? Of course, nothing is perfect. Would it be still viable (profitable, enough development time, etc) if they would've try to sqeeze more stuff into it? I'm not sure.
I agree whole-heartedly....this was an issue with AoC as well....too themepark for something that shouldn't be. I am a HUGE Anarchy Online fan and just wish that TSW was much more similar than it was. Like you said, very rich story, lore, skill customization....all watered down by a very themepark progression. This game could have been an amazing game had they realized that it had to be more Sandbox than themepark.
I guess the core audience that were around in the early days was simply way too small to sustain a large and expensive MMO development team.
So Funcom did the economically sound thing and made the game appealing to a much wider audience.
As we have seen, even that was not enough. TSW is a hand-crafted artwork, but it is struggling to pay the bills. If it was launched as the game was envisaged by the early fanclub, it may have been a fantastic game, but the appeal would have been so narrow that it would have been shut down by now.
The core audeince of the game never changed tho, thats the point the OP is making. Everyone of us whole followed on the forums were very consistent, I used to have RP posts all the time where the where me and several other people (one time up to 10 different forum posters) would just roleplay a story in the games awesome legendary setting.
Then you get to what the game really is, a themepark game, where you cant just make up your own stories with your friends, your being told the stories just like every other game.
The most fun I ever had in Secret World was the forums. Sad but true, It could have easily been the new Galaxies if they had done it right.
Thats the one thing no one ever mentions about SWG, THE COMMUNITY! It was all the best people, nerds from all walks of life, MMO fans and Star Wars fans and Fantasy fans. This game had the same element pre-launch, but it couldnt capitalize on the unique experiance because the game was made to be themepark based from day one because unforunately its funcom, and what is funcom? A big coroporation AGAIN looking at marketing trends and optimizing profits and falling flat on their face for it because ya know why? People arent that stupid and people dont put money down on something that isnt a brand name, a concept is only as good as its execution and Secret World's was very poor.
The ARG wasn't the point. The people who were following the game early on were MMORPG players, but they were wanting more than just a simply themepark with end-game grind. It was more of a diverse crowd of people like I remember from Star Wars Galaxies too, not just casual themepark jumpers.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Sounds like you expected it to be sandbox. i knew right from they first announced it that it wouldnt be sandbox. I also never figured it would be that player driven. I mean why would you take one of the best writers in the industry and not use him. Sandbox games only have growing worlds when the players want it to grow. so getting somone like Tornquist to write it would be a waste. Sandbox games need to be given a Idea and then allow that idea to grow on its own. TSW was never going to be that way.
As for RP, im running on Arcadia and i gotta say that this is the most RP ive ever done out of every game ive played. you either dont know where to look or your not on a RP server.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I agree completely, and I talk about the SWG community all the time. The reason so many loved that game had more to do with the game giving people the tools to get together with other people and forge their own ever-changing story through the Star Wars universe than it did the game play. We didn't care if the game was clunky or often broken. We simply kept doing our own thing.
These new themepark-only kids have no idea whatsoever how much fun that kind of gameplay is because they haven't ever experienced it. Now they are complaining that the themeparks are stale, and they don't really know why.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Your making a broad generalization there.
Themeparks can be done right and sandbox can be done right. One isn't better than the other, it's all a matter of taste. FC never promised a sandbox, so if you were waiting for that type of game it was on you.
No, I didn't know what to expect early on, really. It became increasingly clear over time that it was going in a themepark direction, and now look at the state of it. What's sad is most of what they need is there, but they decided to basically end up with a level-based (QL) progression, and a shallow dungeon grind. It's a total waste.
TSW was, at the beginning, what sounded like a story where the player was going to be on their own adventure, not a linear haunted house Disneyland. Maybe Ragnar never intended for it to be anything more, but he should have been listening to what people were asking for, because clearly IT WASN'T THIS.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
SWG had the sub numbers it had for several reasons, and a big one was that the market didn't really open up until WoW released. That changed everything. SWG had what was *AT THE TIME* a very respectable community. There weren't a lot of game choices. On top of that, we never will know what might have happened with the growth of SWG along side WoW, because SOE destroyed the game in search of WoW sub numbers. No, it would never have been as big, but it could have still be a very thriving game just like EVE is. Hell, it stil went what, seven+ years before sunset?
You can say it was too buggy, and by today's standards I agree. What I can tell you from being there daily from launch to NGE is that the players loved the game anyway. They kept on playing and kept on enjoying it. The amount of whining about these new modern games when they have bugs is much more ridiculous.
As for themeparks that can be done right, yeah. GW2 was. However, it's not blowing the larger community out of the water, now is it? It's doing fine, but it's not taking over the world. The reason is because most of us have BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT. You can only change the themepark so much because it is contrived content. Sandboxes have emergent gameplay that is player-driven. There is no end-game. The progression is horizontal.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Ironic, considering in a recent interview with the devs they mentioned they want to work on horizontal progression in TSW over the standard vertical.
I don't prefer one over the other, sorry if I gave that impression. I love myself a good sandbox too. I actually prefer SWG over SWTOR in it's premise, if only it was more polished and didn't have that NGE update.
I'm playing TSW mostly because it's the most "sandboxy" themepark I've tried with Mabinogi/FFXI/XIV coming a close second.
i donno, it was exactly what i was asking for. your generalizing alot there, and speaking for alot of people who probubly dont agree with you.
Funny thing about this whole "your own Storyline" it doesnt work in anything other than a Sandbox game. if you want your story hardwired into the system you need to play a Tabletop, because that wont happen otherwise. As it stands im playing the game with a bunch of Dagon Worshopers who create their own part of the storyline within the game setting. We stage events and have discussions in the local Pub. as of late our storyline has been the fight against the Renegade Draug who have turned away from Dagon to worshop The sword Beaumont uses in Solomon Island (i hate giving spoilers so i wont name said sword).
The ability to have your own story is there. you just need to play it but as i said, "your own Storyline" cant be hardwired into the system and this is not a sandbox game. It doesnt mean you cant still create a setting and play. ya know what, if your started a story you would probubly find others to join you.
Before you accuse me of not knowing what a sandbox is, my 2 favorate games other than TSW was Face of Mankind and Eve.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
And as soon as a respectable dev with a respectable budget does player-driven emergent gameplay that isn't just about dicking, being dicked by, dicking over, and being a dick towards your fellow player - sign me up!
These sandbox wanna-be's will continue to fail if they keep their eyes glued shut to the lesson UO learned over a decade ago and SWG had done right from the get go.
Oh, and they still need to figure out the "PvE in a sandbox MMO" conundrum - which no sandbox has ever truly embraced - EvE tried, but it was/is a huge fizzle because they didn't take it far enough.
Well, to that I will say the same thing I always say when devs come out with their shoulda-woulda posts. Good luck, and I hope they do it. However, people have largely moved on now, and the development crew there is tiny. How are they going to make massive changes to the game to make it more horizontal while satisfying their current subscribers with a tiny dev team.
I hope they pull it off. As I have said I really love the game's potential, and it's a great *quick* themepark. I just feel it could have been more.
Maybe World of Darkness will deliver what TSW should have.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/722104/world-of-darkness-mmo-details-revealed/
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I agree, and one of those is opt-in world PvP like SWG's flagging system. Best of all worlds, IMO.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Ding ding we have a winner! That's the "what devs have blinded themselves to what UO did with Trammel/Felucca and SWG did right at the start."
Now, what's the "PvE in a sandbox" conundrum?
It's not really shoulda-woulda posts. The release of the Rocket Launcher added a new set of skills for characters to unlock, and another AUX weapon is coming the patch in November. They also mentioned implementing Assembling into making further character progression.
I really wouldn't call the crew a skeleton crew either, if it continues to pump out the content it has been on a monthly basis. That's more than earning my subscription fee IMO.
And I'm looking forward to World of Darkness, I watched there short dev panel of it at last years fanfest, heheh.
Well, then I guess you should ask yourself why the game is failing now. I find it hard to believe that Ragnar's original vision for this game was to create a themepark that had, at best, 60 days worth of gameplay in it unless you want to dungeon grind forever. In fact, we know there were major changes along the way, including world faction PvP. The game was dumbed down, and it's clear to see by how robust some systems are, and how lame others are. It's like they mashed two games together to get it released faster.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me. My post was basically an op-ed. However, I still think if the game was more hybrid or sandbox in nature, it would have a much stronger and larger niche market. Again, my opinion.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I don't know how much you played SWG, if at all, but the flagging system rocked man. I loved how I could basically decide if I wanted to go on active duty, or on leave, and that timers were built in to help keep people in check. I also loved when events auto-flagged you such as attacking PvE faction targets, or pulling your saber in public if you were a Jedi. It just worked so well.
How has everyone else failed to use such a simple system? This would have worked great in The Secret World, and even fit into the lore by simply saying "some of thses guys refuse to get along". To me it is more ludicrous to think that these three factions that have been fighting for hundreds of years, just decided to play nice without ever having a beef with one another. That was another huge turn-off about this game.
It just feels like they couldn't decide if it was an adult game, or a kids game sometimes.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Whether or not their tiny semi-monthly updates are good enough for a sub fee is subjective. For me, it's not. Hey, if they start delivering a better gameplay experience, I'll reinstall the game and pay them a sub fee. Right now, the game isn't worth it to me. Like many others, I got out of it most of what is there to get.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.