Changed to a raffle? You've got to be kidding me! Pay $1000 and only get chances to "win" what was previously acquired through donating?!
Geez, and I thought I'd seen it all.
The project looks very interesting but you won't catch me throwing away wads of cash on a silly lottery system. Give me a break.
What a sham(e).
Zehiah,
No one paid anything on Kickstarter. Since we did not make our goal, no users paid a cent. This means that the Raffle you are disparaging they get for free as a thank you for attempting to help this project get done faster. Sure, we invited them to come to our site on Nov. 9th and repledge, but it is not required. So, our attempted backers did not, as you put it, "pay $1,000 and only get a chances to "win"", the fact is, they get a chance to win for absolutely nothing.
As for our own crowd funding options, they generally offer MORE than we did on Kickstarter, not less, and we added yet a third raffle on top of the guarenteed rewards, just as a thank you for their trouble.
We have been nothing but up front with this project from day one. This is all documented and still available to read. We humbly suggest that people actually research what we have done and said instead of listening to Trolls.
We wish you the best, hope to see you in CoS some day.
Changed to a raffle? You've got to be kidding me! Pay $1000 and only get chances to "win" what was previously acquired through donating?!
Geez, and I thought I'd seen it all.
The project looks very interesting but you won't catch me throwing away wads of cash on a silly lottery system. Give me a break.
What a sham(e).
Zehiah,
No one paid anything on Kickstarter. Since we did not make our goal, no users paid a cent. This means that the Raffle you are disparaging they get for free as a thank you for attempting to help this project get done faster. Sure, we invited them to come to our site on Nov. 9th and repledge, but it is not required. So, our attempted backers did not, as you put it, "pay $1,000 and only get a chances to "win"", the fact is, they get a chance to win for absolutely nothing.
As for our own crowd funding options, they generally offer MORE than we did on Kickstarter, not less, and we added yet a third raffle on top of the guarenteed rewards, just as a thank you for their trouble.
We have been nothing but up front with this project from day one. This is all documented and still available to read. We humbly suggest that people actually research what we have done and said instead of listening to Trolls.
We wish you the best, hope to see you in CoS some day.
I did research and to be honest your website is confusing and lacking proper information. The layout is poor and you're missing links to the appropriate pages.
If I can find problems like that from a preliminary search, that's a problem and I guarantee you I'm not the only one who sees those issues either. Perhaps you should spend more time fixing issues with your website and information layout instead of coming here and calling people trolls. It's very unprofessional, on both counts.
Just a thought.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
SPG games, like Wasteland 2 for instance, have a good chance of being decent games, considering what they raised and what it costs to do a smaller, likely text based title well. They even got more than they wanted/needed. TO make and release the game.
But MMOs are different.
This is the 2nd or 3rd to try to get an MMO kickstarted and the chance of any MMO going the kickstart route and end up being successful are slim, at best. It all comes down to the work that goes into making a technically good MMO, and that takes time and money to get right. Like 10X more than an SPG title. At least.
Do it wrong, and you get Mortal Online or any of a number of vaporware titles that never made it to release.
So then they get to alpha, and then what? They KS again to get to beta? If they can't get any interest from any investor/publisher, there is probably a reason.
I don't think KS is a bad idea in all cases, but KS and MMOs don't mix.
This seems an awful lot like throwing some money out there and hoping something comes of it, when there is not much of a plan to get the rest of the way.
I did read what I quoted, but you didn't answer my question.. but from your notes you haven't read into the project, what the money is for, or their future plans.
For the record, the 700k is a drop in the bucket, as they've always said. They plan to get to Alpha with or without any funding.. the money is to get them there faster. Time is money, and money donated to kick start (hence the site) the project towards Alpha faster is why they tried the site.
Obviously they didn't make the goal, but that doesn't make it vaporware. Lots of other games failed KS and still released. I don't see an MMO project different from another game. I'm still getting stuff for helping get the game further along.
Their entire premise of KS (as they posted about this LONG before they EVER went to KS) was to get to Alpha, have all the major systems working and THEN go after publishers. They aren't using KS because they can't find publishers. They're using KS to finish their playable game before they look for one.
Other games (even MMOs) wanted money for their "tech demo" to take to publishers. They wanted money to get to ALPHA and then go to publishers. I see no difference in the two.
As someone who's been following the game since they came out of the shadows in 2008, they've been nothing but open and honest about EVERYTHING they've done.
But if you don't want to read the project, their site, their FAQ or anything that answers those questions you had.. well, at least here are a few others.
Back or don't back, that's up to you. Calling people frauds or vaporware because YOU didn't take the time to research it is a bit unfair, isn't it?
Either way they said the game is being made. Maybe further along you'll be interested.
Considering the relatively high price of making anything resembling a decent MMO, I can't believe anyone is naive enough to "invest" in this game (or other MMOs frankly) and expect anything to come of it.
Which is not to say KS can't have its place: I think it is a perfectly good way to resurrect some of the "abandoned" SPG game franchises of the old days and give them another shot (Wasteland 2 being a prime example).
That said, any longtime MMO player knows what an underfunded indie MMO made by "hobbists" looks like: crap.
Maybe it is the "younger gaming generation" that are being targeted with stuff, because as an "older gamer" I am not even tempted to look at this and things like this. It is either going to fail miserably, or it is a straight up scam.
Kickstarting an MMO has virtually no chance of ending well.
Might as well burn that money in your fireplace.
I appreciate your position, and don't disagree with most of it. Generally, an MMO made by hobbists does look like crap. Fortunately , we're not hobbists. Our team has made many games, many of them for over twenty years. These include games like World of Warcraft, yes we have team members who worked on it and MANY other games.
As for your comment about 'younger gaming generation', come talk to those who are supporting CoS and you will find that they are generally long time game players of all ages. To call us a 'scam' without knowing anything about our company is really not very fair of you. As always, we invite you to come and talk to us and learn more about us before telling the world that you know anything about us.
Finally, when it comes to the people who have invested in our game, you are dead wrong. We have multiple millons of dollars already spent on the creation of this game, with more spent every day. We will not fail to release this game simply because we have too much invested already not to see it through.
You don't have to belive us, but we suggest you do more research before telling the world how much you know about our development team or chances or that we are some kind of 'scam'. That would be really amazing, a scam that we have worked to create for eight years of our lives. That would make us the god of all scammers! Let's see, we spent millions so that we could scam a few people out of thousands... hmm, then maybe we are really epic lousy scammers? Jeez, it's easier to believe the truth, that we are a team working on exactly what we have said we are. Our dev blogs go back years, so do posts here about the game. Come read or talk to us, we don't have anything to hide.
I did research and to be honest your website is confusing and lacking proper information. The layout is poor and you're missing links to the appropriate pages.
If I can find problems like that from a preliminary search, that's a problem and I guarantee you I'm not the only one who sees those issues either. Perhaps you should spend more time fixing issues with your website and information layout instead of coming here and calling people trolls. It's very unprofessional, on both counts.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
If you're going to say there are broken links, maybe you should tell where? Or tell someone? [mod edit]
Personally I've never seen a broken link, and nobody on the forums or the KS project has complained about broken links or "confusing and lacking information."
I did research and to be honest your website is confusing and lacking proper information. The layout is poor and you're missing links to the appropriate pages.
If I can find problems like that from a preliminary search, that's a problem and I guarantee you I'm not the only one who sees those issues either. Perhaps you should spend more time fixing issues with your website and information layout instead of coming here and calling people trolls. It's very unprofessional, on both counts.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
If you're going to say there are broken links, maybe you should tell where? Or tell someone? [mod edit]
Personally I've never seen a broken link, and nobody on the forums or the KS project has complained about broken links or "confusing and lacking information."
Maybe you're the one confused?
Do you consider me a jerk because I don't want to waste my time doing someone elses job or because I called him out on his unprofessional behavior here?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I get the point of kickstarters, but I think they are a bad idea for games, as well as many other things. If they cant come up with the money to start the company themselves, what makes everyone think they can make the money to maintain and keep it running? It doesnt seem to me, that a game founded by kickstartes would be able to produce enough income to sustain itself. Will they really reach the amount of players to keep it running?
I'm not trying to put this game, or any other kickstarter down....I'm just ignorant about how these things are supposed to work out long term. Feel free to inform me. I would think if a game was that popular, or hopeful, it would be picked up or partnered with the funds no? Again, excuse my ignorance....just trying to grasp the concept.
Changed to a raffle? You've got to be kidding me! Pay $1000 and only get chances to "win" what was previously acquired through donating?!
Geez, and I thought I'd seen it all.
The project looks very interesting but you won't catch me throwing away wads of cash on a silly lottery system. Give me a break.
What a sham(e).
Zehiah,
No one paid anything on Kickstarter. Since we did not make our goal, no users paid a cent. This means that the Raffle you are disparaging they get for free as a thank you for attempting to help this project get done faster. Sure, we invited them to come to our site on Nov. 9th and repledge, but it is not required. So, our attempted backers did not, as you put it, "pay $1,000 and only get a chances to "win"", the fact is, they get a chance to win for absolutely nothing.
As for our own crowd funding options, they generally offer MORE than we did on Kickstarter, not less, and we added yet a third raffle on top of the guarenteed rewards, just as a thank you for their trouble.
We have been nothing but up front with this project from day one. This is all documented and still available to read. We humbly suggest that people actually research what we have done and said instead of listening to Trolls.
We wish you the best, hope to see you in CoS some day.
I did research and to be honest your website is confusing and lacking proper information. The layout is poor and you're missing links to the appropriate pages.
If I can find problems like that from a preliminary search, that's a problem and I guarantee you I'm not the only one who sees those issues either. Perhaps you should spend more time fixing issues with your website and information layout instead of coming here and calling people trolls. It's very unprofessional, on both counts.
Just a thought.
Your opinions on a web site are... interesting. However, really, read, I didn't call you a Troll, I asked you not to listen to Trolls. If you believe that there are no Trolls on forums, you are reading forums that I have not seen yet. Anyway, not sure what we did to make you angry, but whatever it was it wasn't something we meant to do. We're just trying our best to make a good game.
You don't have to start off with a scam for it to end up being a scam. I totally believe at some point early on these people actaully wanted to create a great MMO. What happens is the same thing that happens to even establihed companies. Things fall behind, money becomes tight, people come and go and before you know it the game is so far behind schedule that you go into recoup-your-losses mode, just like Curt Schillings company...and that actually had legit funding.
Old Time MMO players have already been down the scam road with games like Dawn, or the first incarnation of Horizons under ARtifact Entertainment (I think that was the one). The internet was made for scammers. You have total anonymity, you can fish from lots of coutries, no real means of prosecution across boarders if you are smart about it, and you even have built in systems that you can use (like PayPal or Kickstarter). And the best part is that you do not have to scam large amounts of money from a small base of people. You can scam small amounts of money from a large base of people.
If you donated 40,000$ to this project and found out that the business went belly up (which will happen at some point, I guarantee you) you would be pretty pissed and might even go to a lawyer and see what could be done. But if you are one of the large group of people who donate 30$ or something like that you will shrug it off as something you should have been more aware of.
It's a scam, whether they have good intentions or not, they will take your money and nothing will ever come to fruition.
Changed to a raffle? You've got to be kidding me! Pay $1000 and only get chances to "win" what was previously acquired through donating?!
Geez, and I thought I'd seen it all.
The project looks very interesting but you won't catch me throwing away wads of cash on a silly lottery system. Give me a break.
What a sham(e).
Zehiah,
No one paid anything on Kickstarter. Since we did not make our goal, no users paid a cent. This means that the Raffle you are disparaging they get for free as a thank you for attempting to help this project get done faster. Sure, we invited them to come to our site on Nov. 9th and repledge, but it is not required. So, our attempted backers did not, as you put it, "pay $1,000 and only get a chances to "win"", the fact is, they get a chance to win for absolutely nothing.
As for our own crowd funding options, they generally offer MORE than we did on Kickstarter, not less, and we added yet a third raffle on top of the guarenteed rewards, just as a thank you for their trouble.
We have been nothing but up front with this project from day one. This is all documented and still available to read. We humbly suggest that people actually research what we have done and said instead of listening to Trolls.
We wish you the best, hope to see you in CoS some day.
I did research and to be honest your website is confusing and lacking proper information. The layout is poor and you're missing links to the appropriate pages.
If I can find problems like that from a preliminary search, that's a problem and I guarantee you I'm not the only one who sees those issues either. Perhaps you should spend more time fixing issues with your website and information layout instead of coming here and calling people trolls. It's very unprofessional, on both counts.
Just a thought.
Your opinions on a web site are... interesting. However, really, read, I didn't call you a Troll, I asked you not to listen to Trolls. If you believe that their are no Trolls on forums, you are reading forums that I have not seen yet. Anyway, not sure what we did to make you angry, but whatever it was it wasn't something we meant to do. We're just trying out best to make a good game.
I didn't say you called me a troll, did I? The fact is, for you to come here and call people trolls, regardless of if they are or are not, is unprofessional on your part. Instead of wasting time defending your product with name-calling, you'd be better off spending it elsewhere.
Find someone else who has more patience than you (or I for that matter) to do your community relations.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
You don't have to start off with a scam for it to end up being a scam. I totally believe at some point early on these people actaully wanted to create a great MMO. What happens is the same thing that happens to even establihed companies. Things fall behind, money becomes tight, people come and go and before you know it the game is so far behind schedule that you go into recoup-your-losses mode, just like Curt Schillings company...and that actually had legit funding.
Old Time MMO players have already been down the scam road with games like Dawn, or the first incarnation of Horizons under ARtifact Entertainment (I think that was the one). The internet was made for scammers. You have total anonymity, you can fish from lots of coutries, no real means of prosecution across boarders if you are smart about it, and you even have built in systems that you can use (like PayPal or Kickstarter). And the best part is that you do not have to scam large amounts of money from a small base of people. You can scam small amounts of money from a large base of people.
If you donated 40,000$ to this project and found out that the business went belly up (which will happen at some point, I guarantee you) you would be pretty pissed and might even go to a lawyer and see what could be done. But if you are one of the large group of people who donate 30$ or something like that you will shrug it off as something you should have been more aware of.
It's a scam, whether they have good intentions or not, they will take your money and nothing will ever come to fruition.
Let's see, because we intend to make our game, spend all of our time and money on it for eight years, and during that time we do NOT go belly up, and then we do nothing but keep our word every step of the way, somehow, we're a scam? Tell that to all the people working on this game every day for the past eight years and they will have a good chuckle. People outside our company always seem to think they know so much about our company.
Regardless of people's 'opinions' we will do what we have always done, finish the game we started. Every game I have ever designed and produced has shipped to market, CoS will not be the first to change that record.
Obviously, I'm not going to change your opinion, I just want other people reading your post to understand that your opinion does not come from facts about OUR company. For those reading this, we suggest you come and find out for yourselves. We are always open about our development, and have been for the past eight years.
If you do have an open mind, koboldfodder, we also invite you to come talk to us, and learn that we ARE doing what we claim.
All these rants and attacks on our little game development company are all very entertaining and such, but really, I have to go and get back to work actually building Citadel of Sorcery. Have a nice time storming the castle. I hope to see you in the game for an adventure some day. Until then, have fun!
Originally posted by Jatar All these rants and attacks on our little game development company are all very entertaining and such, but really, I have to go and get back to work actually building Citadel of Sorcery. Have a nice time storming the castle. I hope to see you in the game for an adventure some day. Until then, have fun!
All im saying is:
In game footage of more than just npc's walking around, show us the combat and this epic engine in action.
More details, not vauge "were going to make exploration awesome" crap
Get some people in a beta
THEN get cocky.
Dont take the Derek Smart route of getting cocky and insulting potential customers first...
People are going to doubt your work because as it stands now, its all just a bunch of text and talk. Untill that changes, your going to be either making an ass of yourself telling people they are wrong with noting to validate that position, or your going to have to deal with skeptics. For the skeptics...this isnt their first rodeo...theyve seen and heard all this before...rarely is even a fraction of the hype deliverd.
Hope its different with this game...but untill i can see something, get some in depth details...and possibly even try it or see other people trying it...just a bunch of hype.
Oh and if this is super pre alpha and you dont have all that yet....why start hyping it now?
Originally posted by Jatar All these rants and attacks on our little game development company are all very entertaining and such, but really, I have to go and get back to work actually building Citadel of Sorcery. Have a nice time storming the castle. I hope to see you in the game for an adventure some day. Until then, have fun!
All im saying is:
In game footage of more than just npc's walking around, show us the combat and this epic engine in action.
More details, not vauge "were going to make exploration awesome" crap
Get some people in a beta
THEN get cocky.
Dont take the Derek Smart route of getting cocky and insulting potential customers first...
People are going to doubt your work because as it stands now, its all just a bunch of text and talk. Untill that changes, your going to be either making an ass of yourself telling people they are wrong with noting to validate that position, or your going to have to deal with skeptics. For the skeptics...this isnt their first rodeo...theyve seen and heard all this before...rarely is even a fraction of the hype deliverd.
Hope its different with this game...but untill i can see something, get some in depth details...and possibly even try it or see other people trying it...just a bunch of hype.
Oh and if this is super pre alpha and you dont have all that yet....why start hyping it now?
I think most games out there certainly dont lack promises, hype, and good ideas. What ends up lacking is the execution of these ideas.
While theres been countless games who have started on fantastic ideas with a laundry list of features we all want, ew if any have been able to successfully exectute them in a manner that is both unique and enjoyable.
Most unique indy games hit a wall with delivering a smooth/fluid and entertaining combat, the foundation of a good mmorpg. Others end up promising groundbreaking and revolutionary ideas that when executed is just the same old repackaged, GW2 did this quite successfully, it was obvious too, but many bit the hype and were in too deep to change their minds when it became apparent.
Dont hype this game untill its ready to go, indy developers have burned more mmorpg players than havent, and people are sick of getting behind good ideas on paper that turn out to be unplayable, unfun, and anything but unique when executed.
I applaud when developers stick to their guns, their vision, and ignore the cries from the zombies who want every game they play to be exactly the same, easy, and lacking of any risk tied into their rewards.
My issue with this game is simple. I hear a lot a vauge "good ideas" that i have no idea how it will be executed. I find solid and final information about what the game will be like again vauge. Yeah exploration...how...why...what will be unique about it ect? Exploration is good, but not when its forced, surprises are key to exploration and it stops being exploration when you need an npc to give you a reward for going there.
Aside from that...the basics of this game, the pvp/pve ruleset...the combat...the endgame...all the important factors to longevity...not sure what they are and its hard to get behind a game without knowing all this in detail.
Again...everything is so vauge and adding the usual buzzwords doesnt help convice me, maybe others it will...but im not sure what information others are going off of to convice them to donate money.
I wish this the best of luck, but untill theres specifics, demonstarations with gameplay footage...this is just another game with a lot of buzzwords.
There are pages and pages of information to read on the game on our official forums, with plenty of detail. We humbly suggest that you may read about it there. As for waiting for demonstrations with gameplay footage, we completely understand your desire to see those, who wouldn't want to see all that?
Still, the point of early crowd funding isn't to get money for a finished game, it is to get money to finish the game. Once we have the things you want to see done, we will have no need of crowd funding, or of offering the speical deals and rewards we are giving to those that help us early on. But, regardless of if you wait, or if you help now, we will still be pleased to see you in the game when it comes out. Have a great day!
Originally posted by Jatar All these rants and attacks on our little game development company are all very entertaining and such, but really, I have to go and get back to work actually building Citadel of Sorcery. Have a nice time storming the castle. I hope to see you in the game for an adventure some day. Until then, have fun!
All im saying is:
In game footage of more than just npc's walking around, show us the combat and this epic engine in action.
More details, not vauge "were going to make exploration awesome" crap
Get some people in a beta
THEN get cocky.
Dont take the Derek Smart route of getting cocky and insulting potential customers first...
People are going to doubt your work because as it stands now, its all just a bunch of text and talk. Untill that changes, your going to be either making an ass of yourself telling people they are wrong with noting to validate that position, or your going to have to deal with skeptics. For the skeptics...this isnt their first rodeo...theyve seen and heard all this before...rarely is even a fraction of the hype deliverd.
Hope its different with this game...but untill i can see something, get some in depth details...and possibly even try it or see other people trying it...just a bunch of hype.
Oh and if this is super pre alpha and you dont have all that yet....why start hyping it now?
Rather than trash talk go to the Official site , you look such a fool. But then thats what a lot of jaded gamers here do.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Originally posted by Jatar All these rants and attacks on our little game development company are all very entertaining and such, but really, I have to go and get back to work actually building Citadel of Sorcery. Have a nice time storming the castle. I hope to see you in the game for an adventure some day. Until then, have fun!
All im saying is:
In game footage of more than just npc's walking around, show us the combat and this epic engine in action.
More details, not vauge "were going to make exploration awesome" crap
Get some people in a beta
THEN get cocky.
Dont take the Derek Smart route of getting cocky and insulting potential customers first...
People are going to doubt your work because as it stands now, its all just a bunch of text and talk. Untill that changes, your going to be either making an ass of yourself telling people they are wrong with noting to validate that position, or your going to have to deal with skeptics. For the skeptics...this isnt their first rodeo...theyve seen and heard all this before...rarely is even a fraction of the hype deliverd.
Hope its different with this game...but untill i can see something, get some in depth details...and possibly even try it or see other people trying it...just a bunch of hype.
Oh and if this is super pre alpha and you dont have all that yet....why start hyping it now?
I can't figure why you are so animated about this. They used Kickstarter as a way to try and raise money to further fund the development of their game. They have been up front about what they are willing to show you and what they are willing to talk about. There is a lot of info on their forums.
Now, if you are not satisfied with the amount of info to donate, then don't donate. Simple. I understand. Truly. we have all seen hype over the years and we all get cynical and skeptical. But, calling them cocky, assigning their claims as 'crap' and telling them they aren't going to get what they want because you aren't receiving what you desire as "proof of concept" is not your role.
Try and keep things in perspective and stay happy.
Seems like there's already some decent drama being stirred up around this game.
If I were a dev here I'd just ignore this forum, instead of letting myself be lured into flame wars and pointless arguments. Better to focus on the actual game (which sounds fucking amazing btw) and provide some hard proof of all these groundbreaking features, than to engage in the mmorpg.com pvp - leave that to the players.
You guys have to accept that people are skeptical and that many won't be convinced by words alone. Many, many gamers (myself included) have been waiting on a game like this, but we have also been burned before by devs promising awesome stuff that never became a reality.
I'm not saying cos is a scam or vaporware, just that most sensible people will want to see more before jumping in with both feet.
Originally posted by Biskop Seems like there's already some decent drama being stirred up around this game.
If I were a dev here I'd just ignore this forum, instead of letting myself be lured into flame wars and pointless arguments. Better to focus on the actual game (which sounds fucking amazing btw) and provide some hard proof of all these groundbreaking features, than to engage in the mmorpg.com pvp - leave that to the players.
You guys have to accept that people are skeptical and that many won't be convinced by words alone. Many, many gamers (myself included) have been waiting on a game like this, but we have also been burned before by devs promising awesome stuff that never became a reality.
I'm not saying cos is a scam or vaporware, just that most sensible people will want to see more before jumping in with both feet.
I agree.
And especially when the answer to every question/concern is "go to look at the official website".
That's cool and all, but official sites are the most heavily moderated of any sites talking about a game, and are designed for a game to "put the best foot forward", i.e. marketing.
Which is fine, but don't expect people to take everything on there at face value. Most of us have seen plenty of "good demos" before, and that in itself means nothing.
Which does not mean the game is a scam, or bad, but there needs to be more before: 1. Getting remotely excited, and 2. Forking over any cash for a "pre-alpha", which does not seem like a good idea in the present MMO market.
Originally posted by Biskop Seems like there's already some decent drama being stirred up around this game.
If I were a dev here I'd just ignore this forum, instead of letting myself be lured into flame wars and pointless arguments. Better to focus on the actual game (which sounds fucking amazing btw) and provide some hard proof of all these groundbreaking features, than to engage in the mmorpg.com pvp - leave that to the players.
You guys have to accept that people are skeptical and that many won't be convinced by words alone. Many, many gamers (myself included) have been waiting on a game like this, but we have also been burned before by devs promising awesome stuff that never became a reality.
I'm not saying cos is a scam or vaporware, just that most sensible people will want to see more before jumping in with both feet.
I agree.
And especially when the answer to every question/concern is "go to look at the official website".
That's cool and all, but official sites are the most heavily moderated of any sites talking about a game, and are designed for a game to "put the best foot forward", i.e. marketing.
Which is fine, but don't expect people to take everything on there at face value. Most of us have seen plenty of "good demos" before, and that in itself means nothing.
Which does not mean the game is a scam, or bad, but there needs to be more before: 1. Getting remotely excited, and 2. Forking over any cash for a "pre-alpha", which does not seem like a good idea in the present MMO market.
I just wanted to point out that their forums have the least moderation out of any game forum I've seen. The only person I can remember ever banned was Convo because he was making personal attacks on the CoS Team.
i personally put my money in, even if it has .00001% chance of being made. I want this game and I have no reason not to believe them yet (I'm not jaded enough to believe that everyone is a crook yet).
Many others feel the same way. I also personally would rather spend money helping fund this game than get milked for cash from ArenaNet in their Gem Store, or any other cash shop game that's already out and is complete crap.
I still have some hope in the industry, but it's starting to fade. I do what I can personally... because I believe indies are the future of the industry and not the big money companies.
Everyone has their own opinion though.. and I don't go around flaming people in other game forums for their choices. It's sad that most people can't do the same.
Originally posted by Biskop Seems like there's already some decent drama being stirred up around this game.
If I were a dev here I'd just ignore this forum, instead of letting myself be lured into flame wars and pointless arguments. Better to focus on the actual game (which sounds fucking amazing btw) and provide some hard proof of all these groundbreaking features, than to engage in the mmorpg.com pvp - leave that to the players.
You guys have to accept that people are skeptical and that many won't be convinced by words alone. Many, many gamers (myself included) have been waiting on a game like this, but we have also been burned before by devs promising awesome stuff that never became a reality.
I'm not saying cos is a scam or vaporware, just that most sensible people will want to see more before jumping in with both feet.
I agree.
And especially when the answer to every question/concern is "go to look at the official website".
That's cool and all, but official sites are the most heavily moderated of any sites talking about a game, and are designed for a game to "put the best foot forward", i.e. marketing.
Which is fine, but don't expect people to take everything on there at face value. Most of us have seen plenty of "good demos" before, and that in itself means nothing.
Which does not mean the game is a scam, or bad, but there needs to be more before: 1. Getting remotely excited, and 2. Forking over any cash for a "pre-alpha", which does not seem like a good idea in the present MMO market.
I just wanted to point out that their forums have the least moderation out of any game forum I've seen. The only person I can remember ever banned was Convo because he was making personal attacks on the CoS Team.
i personally put my money in, even if it has .00001% chance of being made. I want this game and I have no reason not to believe them yet (I'm not jaded enough to believe that everyone is a crook yet).
Many others feel the same way. I also personally would rather spend money helping fund this game than get milked for cash from ArenaNet in their Gem Store, or any other cash shop game that's already out and is complete crap.
I still have some hope in the industry, but it's starting to fade. I do what I can personally... because I believe indies are the future of the industry and not the big money companies.
Everyone has their own opinion though.. and I don't go around flaming people in other game forums for their choices. It's sad that most people can't do the same.
There is a big difference between "flaming people" and having some healthy scepticism, especially due to: 1. Just about every MMO release in the last 7 years, and, 2. Every indie/small company MMO released since EvE have not lived up to expectations, even reasonable ones.
So, if you want the "party line" I suggest going back to the official site, people actually discuss MMOs here, both the positive and negative.
Yea..I don't get the blind faith here and it annoys me that the same person who reported me to this site continues to throw out subtle shots towards me.. As my concerns are totally legit at this point..be a fan boy for this game.. That's fine but just because the same person who updates the original forums and post here tells you it's all true because its on their "forum". Doesn't make it true...the bottom line is they have 8 years and not even a playable demo.. I deal with facts and the facts are this company has nothing to show you. They also have no investors... They just have a bunch of words on a website. You can't dispute that. On top of all of that.. If someone is going to ask for your money.. You should demand to see a little something... Or ask some Devs in the industry their opinion on what this company is promising. That would be a very interesting discussion.
This is simply not true. While I get why people are being skeptic - this is afterall something that hasn't been done before - if you take a look at kickstarter you would see that the vast majority of games show little more than concept art and even less details about how things work in-game. I have yet to see any developer offer as much information at this stage of development as CoS does. One of the raffle rewards is logging into the game world THIS MONTH and taking a tour seeing all the current workings of the game.
Now you're right to feel like it's too risky to throw a dinner's worth of money on a potential indie game seeing the past record of some indies, and you don't have to, but calling something a scam without a solid proof other than "others did it" is at best misleading.
It's less of a blind faith and more of a hopeful support for the idea that we are tired of the same old. Hell, I would be getting more than my money's worth just by keeping this hope alive for a few years regardless if the game gets released or not, and from what I've seen I'd say it has pretty good chances of being released and successful.
I don't understand that sense of entitlement. Many are happy to donate to help the team (hence the term donate), and anything the devs choose to offer is just a "thank you token" and they're actually offering a lot! I think you're misunderstanding something: supporting the team with money is actually optional, no one is forcing anyone to do so. You are a supporter, not an investor or a share holder to ask for inner mechanics.
It's simple. Don't like/trust this game? no problem, go have a nice dinner with your partner. Some of us feel like our money here is well-spent and it's silly of you to try and speak for all of us dectating what should be of value to us.
I'm not trying to change anyones mind. I already said in a prior post by all means donate away. Eventually we will find out who is right and wrong with all this. I actually havent looked at this thread for over a week until today.. I gotta tread lightly as I already got a warning for "trolling". I think the naysayers are having a legitmate discussion here. I would be willing to bet in the near future there will be a post on thier site claiming they are close to Alpha but if they could only get people to donate a little bit more...
For the record. MY orignal issue was when I posted my concern that the Raffle was never intended to be honored from Kickstarter. At first I was told that people had to repledge because they didn't have the emails(that was their initial response) but after I pushed a bit they stated to just PM them. Only after I called them on it. That's where I started to have my doubts. I'm entiled to them and I could be totally wrong. I didn't like the way things went down, so here I am.. Doubtful you guys who put your money behind this will ever get a playable product. That's how I feel, and nothing to date they have done has me even close to changing my mind. You say we have no proof, well.. neither do you.. They are going to let someone in game in a month huh? I have an idea.. Why don't they let this site or another gaming site inside the game?
Originally posted by Convo Yea..I don't get the blind faith here and it annoys me that the same person who reported me to this site continues to throw out subtle shots towards me.. As my concerns are totally legit at this point..be a fan boy for this game.. That's fine but just because the same person who updates the original forums and post here tells you it's all true because its on their "forum". Doesn't make it true...the bottom line is they have 8 years and not even a playable demo.. I deal with facts and the facts are this company has nothing to show you. They also have no investors... They just have a bunch of words on a website. You can't dispute that. On top of all of that.. If someone is going to ask for your money.. You should demand to see a little something... Or ask some Devs in the industry their opinion on what this company is promising. That would be a very interesting discussion.
Your misleading and misguided posts are amusing, but sadly just like yourself a lot of us have probably played as many if not more MMO hours than most. Your opinion just appears very very weak. Your concerns are just that but they are not really that legitimate as if you had taken any time whatsoever to engage properley, which yoiu haven't you would realise exactly what these guys have developed and where they are at..
The facts exist and what they say they have developed is exactly what they have done. Seems to me you are sulking because you were made to look like a complete and utter fool.
That said you are allowed an opinion, even if it is i'll informed. I remember why i stopped posting here too many people trying to look clever when really they are too short sighted to understand the future. What CoS are developing is complex and difficult but not impossible , I am a designer myself and can appreciate what they are doing.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Comments
Zehiah,
No one paid anything on Kickstarter. Since we did not make our goal, no users paid a cent. This means that the Raffle you are disparaging they get for free as a thank you for attempting to help this project get done faster. Sure, we invited them to come to our site on Nov. 9th and repledge, but it is not required. So, our attempted backers did not, as you put it, "pay $1,000 and only get a chances to "win"", the fact is, they get a chance to win for absolutely nothing.
As for our own crowd funding options, they generally offer MORE than we did on Kickstarter, not less, and we added yet a third raffle on top of the guarenteed rewards, just as a thank you for their trouble.
We have been nothing but up front with this project from day one. This is all documented and still available to read. We humbly suggest that people actually research what we have done and said instead of listening to Trolls.
We wish you the best, hope to see you in CoS some day.
I did research and to be honest your website is confusing and lacking proper information. The layout is poor and you're missing links to the appropriate pages.
If I can find problems like that from a preliminary search, that's a problem and I guarantee you I'm not the only one who sees those issues either. Perhaps you should spend more time fixing issues with your website and information layout instead of coming here and calling people trolls. It's very unprofessional, on both counts.
Just a thought.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I did read what I quoted, but you didn't answer my question.. but from your notes you haven't read into the project, what the money is for, or their future plans.
For the record, the 700k is a drop in the bucket, as they've always said. They plan to get to Alpha with or without any funding.. the money is to get them there faster. Time is money, and money donated to kick start (hence the site) the project towards Alpha faster is why they tried the site.
Obviously they didn't make the goal, but that doesn't make it vaporware. Lots of other games failed KS and still released. I don't see an MMO project different from another game. I'm still getting stuff for helping get the game further along.
Their entire premise of KS (as they posted about this LONG before they EVER went to KS) was to get to Alpha, have all the major systems working and THEN go after publishers. They aren't using KS because they can't find publishers. They're using KS to finish their playable game before they look for one.
Other games (even MMOs) wanted money for their "tech demo" to take to publishers. They wanted money to get to ALPHA and then go to publishers. I see no difference in the two.
As someone who's been following the game since they came out of the shadows in 2008, they've been nothing but open and honest about EVERYTHING they've done.
But if you don't want to read the project, their site, their FAQ or anything that answers those questions you had.. well, at least here are a few others.
Back or don't back, that's up to you. Calling people frauds or vaporware because YOU didn't take the time to research it is a bit unfair, isn't it?
Either way they said the game is being made. Maybe further along you'll be interested.
I appreciate your position, and don't disagree with most of it. Generally, an MMO made by hobbists does look like crap. Fortunately , we're not hobbists. Our team has made many games, many of them for over twenty years. These include games like World of Warcraft, yes we have team members who worked on it and MANY other games.
As for your comment about 'younger gaming generation', come talk to those who are supporting CoS and you will find that they are generally long time game players of all ages. To call us a 'scam' without knowing anything about our company is really not very fair of you. As always, we invite you to come and talk to us and learn more about us before telling the world that you know anything about us.
Finally, when it comes to the people who have invested in our game, you are dead wrong. We have multiple millons of dollars already spent on the creation of this game, with more spent every day. We will not fail to release this game simply because we have too much invested already not to see it through.
You don't have to belive us, but we suggest you do more research before telling the world how much you know about our development team or chances or that we are some kind of 'scam'. That would be really amazing, a scam that we have worked to create for eight years of our lives. That would make us the god of all scammers! Let's see, we spent millions so that we could scam a few people out of thousands... hmm, then maybe we are really epic lousy scammers? Jeez, it's easier to believe the truth, that we are a team working on exactly what we have said we are. Our dev blogs go back years, so do posts here about the game. Come read or talk to us, we don't have anything to hide.
Just a thought.
If you're going to say there are broken links, maybe you should tell where? Or tell someone? [mod edit]
Personally I've never seen a broken link, and nobody on the forums or the KS project has complained about broken links or "confusing and lacking information."
Maybe you're the one confused?
Do you consider me a jerk because I don't want to waste my time doing someone elses job or because I called him out on his unprofessional behavior here?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I get the point of kickstarters, but I think they are a bad idea for games, as well as many other things. If they cant come up with the money to start the company themselves, what makes everyone think they can make the money to maintain and keep it running? It doesnt seem to me, that a game founded by kickstartes would be able to produce enough income to sustain itself. Will they really reach the amount of players to keep it running?
I'm not trying to put this game, or any other kickstarter down....I'm just ignorant about how these things are supposed to work out long term. Feel free to inform me. I would think if a game was that popular, or hopeful, it would be picked up or partnered with the funds no? Again, excuse my ignorance....just trying to grasp the concept.
Your opinions on a web site are... interesting. However, really, read, I didn't call you a Troll, I asked you not to listen to Trolls. If you believe that there are no Trolls on forums, you are reading forums that I have not seen yet. Anyway, not sure what we did to make you angry, but whatever it was it wasn't something we meant to do. We're just trying our best to make a good game.
You don't have to start off with a scam for it to end up being a scam. I totally believe at some point early on these people actaully wanted to create a great MMO. What happens is the same thing that happens to even establihed companies. Things fall behind, money becomes tight, people come and go and before you know it the game is so far behind schedule that you go into recoup-your-losses mode, just like Curt Schillings company...and that actually had legit funding.
Old Time MMO players have already been down the scam road with games like Dawn, or the first incarnation of Horizons under ARtifact Entertainment (I think that was the one). The internet was made for scammers. You have total anonymity, you can fish from lots of coutries, no real means of prosecution across boarders if you are smart about it, and you even have built in systems that you can use (like PayPal or Kickstarter). And the best part is that you do not have to scam large amounts of money from a small base of people. You can scam small amounts of money from a large base of people.
If you donated 40,000$ to this project and found out that the business went belly up (which will happen at some point, I guarantee you) you would be pretty pissed and might even go to a lawyer and see what could be done. But if you are one of the large group of people who donate 30$ or something like that you will shrug it off as something you should have been more aware of.
It's a scam, whether they have good intentions or not, they will take your money and nothing will ever come to fruition.
I didn't say you called me a troll, did I? The fact is, for you to come here and call people trolls, regardless of if they are or are not, is unprofessional on your part. Instead of wasting time defending your product with name-calling, you'd be better off spending it elsewhere.
Find someone else who has more patience than you (or I for that matter) to do your community relations.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Let's see, because we intend to make our game, spend all of our time and money on it for eight years, and during that time we do NOT go belly up, and then we do nothing but keep our word every step of the way, somehow, we're a scam? Tell that to all the people working on this game every day for the past eight years and they will have a good chuckle. People outside our company always seem to think they know so much about our company.
Regardless of people's 'opinions' we will do what we have always done, finish the game we started. Every game I have ever designed and produced has shipped to market, CoS will not be the first to change that record.
Obviously, I'm not going to change your opinion, I just want other people reading your post to understand that your opinion does not come from facts about OUR company. For those reading this, we suggest you come and find out for yourselves. We are always open about our development, and have been for the past eight years.
If you do have an open mind, koboldfodder, we also invite you to come talk to us, and learn that we ARE doing what we claim.
All im saying is:
In game footage of more than just npc's walking around, show us the combat and this epic engine in action.
More details, not vauge "were going to make exploration awesome" crap
Get some people in a beta
THEN get cocky.
Dont take the Derek Smart route of getting cocky and insulting potential customers first...
People are going to doubt your work because as it stands now, its all just a bunch of text and talk. Untill that changes, your going to be either making an ass of yourself telling people they are wrong with noting to validate that position, or your going to have to deal with skeptics. For the skeptics...this isnt their first rodeo...theyve seen and heard all this before...rarely is even a fraction of the hype deliverd.
Hope its different with this game...but untill i can see something, get some in depth details...and possibly even try it or see other people trying it...just a bunch of hype.
Oh and if this is super pre alpha and you dont have all that yet....why start hyping it now?
QFT +1
There are pages and pages of information to read on the game on our official forums, with plenty of detail. We humbly suggest that you may read about it there. As for waiting for demonstrations with gameplay footage, we completely understand your desire to see those, who wouldn't want to see all that?
Still, the point of early crowd funding isn't to get money for a finished game, it is to get money to finish the game. Once we have the things you want to see done, we will have no need of crowd funding, or of offering the speical deals and rewards we are giving to those that help us early on. But, regardless of if you wait, or if you help now, we will still be pleased to see you in the game when it comes out. Have a great day!
Rather than trash talk go to the Official site , you look such a fool. But then thats what a lot of jaded gamers here do.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I can't figure why you are so animated about this. They used Kickstarter as a way to try and raise money to further fund the development of their game. They have been up front about what they are willing to show you and what they are willing to talk about. There is a lot of info on their forums.
Now, if you are not satisfied with the amount of info to donate, then don't donate. Simple. I understand. Truly. we have all seen hype over the years and we all get cynical and skeptical. But, calling them cocky, assigning their claims as 'crap' and telling them they aren't going to get what they want because you aren't receiving what you desire as "proof of concept" is not your role.
Try and keep things in perspective and stay happy.
If I were a dev here I'd just ignore this forum, instead of letting myself be lured into flame wars and pointless arguments. Better to focus on the actual game (which sounds fucking amazing btw) and provide some hard proof of all these groundbreaking features, than to engage in the mmorpg.com pvp - leave that to the players.
You guys have to accept that people are skeptical and that many won't be convinced by words alone. Many, many gamers (myself included) have been waiting on a game like this, but we have also been burned before by devs promising awesome stuff that never became a reality.
I'm not saying cos is a scam or vaporware, just that most sensible people will want to see more before jumping in with both feet.
I agree.
And especially when the answer to every question/concern is "go to look at the official website".
That's cool and all, but official sites are the most heavily moderated of any sites talking about a game, and are designed for a game to "put the best foot forward", i.e. marketing.
Which is fine, but don't expect people to take everything on there at face value. Most of us have seen plenty of "good demos" before, and that in itself means nothing.
Which does not mean the game is a scam, or bad, but there needs to be more before: 1. Getting remotely excited, and 2. Forking over any cash for a "pre-alpha", which does not seem like a good idea in the present MMO market.
I just wanted to point out that their forums have the least moderation out of any game forum I've seen. The only person I can remember ever banned was Convo because he was making personal attacks on the CoS Team.
i personally put my money in, even if it has .00001% chance of being made. I want this game and I have no reason not to believe them yet (I'm not jaded enough to believe that everyone is a crook yet).
Many others feel the same way. I also personally would rather spend money helping fund this game than get milked for cash from ArenaNet in their Gem Store, or any other cash shop game that's already out and is complete crap.
I still have some hope in the industry, but it's starting to fade. I do what I can personally... because I believe indies are the future of the industry and not the big money companies.
Everyone has their own opinion though.. and I don't go around flaming people in other game forums for their choices. It's sad that most people can't do the same.
There is a big difference between "flaming people" and having some healthy scepticism, especially due to: 1. Just about every MMO release in the last 7 years, and, 2. Every indie/small company MMO released since EvE have not lived up to expectations, even reasonable ones.
So, if you want the "party line" I suggest going back to the official site, people actually discuss MMOs here, both the positive and negative.
I am sure they are more gentile back there.
This is simply not true. While I get why people are being skeptic - this is afterall something that hasn't been done before - if you take a look at kickstarter you would see that the vast majority of games show little more than concept art and even less details about how things work in-game. I have yet to see any developer offer as much information at this stage of development as CoS does. One of the raffle rewards is logging into the game world THIS MONTH and taking a tour seeing all the current workings of the game.
Now you're right to feel like it's too risky to throw a dinner's worth of money on a potential indie game seeing the past record of some indies, and you don't have to, but calling something a scam without a solid proof other than "others did it" is at best misleading.
It's less of a blind faith and more of a hopeful support for the idea that we are tired of the same old. Hell, I would be getting more than my money's worth just by keeping this hope alive for a few years regardless if the game gets released or not, and from what I've seen I'd say it has pretty good chances of being released and successful.
I don't understand that sense of entitlement. Many are happy to donate to help the team (hence the term donate), and anything the devs choose to offer is just a "thank you token" and they're actually offering a lot! I think you're misunderstanding something: supporting the team with money is actually optional, no one is forcing anyone to do so. You are a supporter, not an investor or a share holder to ask for inner mechanics.
It's simple. Don't like/trust this game? no problem, go have a nice dinner with your partner. Some of us feel like our money here is well-spent and it's silly of you to try and speak for all of us dectating what should be of value to us.
I'm not trying to change anyones mind. I already said in a prior post by all means donate away. Eventually we will find out who is right and wrong with all this. I actually havent looked at this thread for over a week until today.. I gotta tread lightly as I already got a warning for "trolling". I think the naysayers are having a legitmate discussion here. I would be willing to bet in the near future there will be a post on thier site claiming they are close to Alpha but if they could only get people to donate a little bit more...
For the record. MY orignal issue was when I posted my concern that the Raffle was never intended to be honored from Kickstarter. At first I was told that people had to repledge because they didn't have the emails(that was their initial response) but after I pushed a bit they stated to just PM them. Only after I called them on it. That's where I started to have my doubts. I'm entiled to them and I could be totally wrong. I didn't like the way things went down, so here I am.. Doubtful you guys who put your money behind this will ever get a playable product. That's how I feel, and nothing to date they have done has me even close to changing my mind. You say we have no proof, well.. neither do you.. They are going to let someone in game in a month huh? I have an idea.. Why don't they let this site or another gaming site inside the game?
Your misleading and misguided posts are amusing, but sadly just like yourself a lot of us have probably played as many if not more MMO hours than most. Your opinion just appears very very weak. Your concerns are just that but they are not really that legitimate as if you had taken any time whatsoever to engage properley, which yoiu haven't you would realise exactly what these guys have developed and where they are at..
The facts exist and what they say they have developed is exactly what they have done. Seems to me you are sulking because you were made to look like a complete and utter fool.
That said you are allowed an opinion, even if it is i'll informed. I remember why i stopped posting here too many people trying to look clever when really they are too short sighted to understand the future. What CoS are developing is complex and difficult but not impossible , I am a designer myself and can appreciate what they are doing.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel