Originally posted by Roxtarr Originally posted by strangepowerNews Flash! A company's goal is to make money, more at 11 Jim.
I LOL'd at this. Based on what I frequently read from some gamers, I think they prefer no sub and no cash shop. Just free everthing. What could possibly go wrong?
Yes, the scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.
Originally posted by Valerosus I tend to just lurk on this site but honestly I'm getting a little tired of seeing these threads.
Then go back to lurking and don't read them. No one forces you to click on a link and read a thread you're not interested in.
Simple, right?
The OP makes a valid point, and one that is becoming increasingly clear to more and more people as time goes on.
F2P is intended to "milk" players for all the developer can. They are designed that way, and this is a known fact. The result is that more effort goes into finding ways to monetize players through deliberately imposed limitations, speed-bumps and handicaps which can all be "paid away" via cash shop purchases, than is going into finding new and interesting ways to actually entertain the players enough for them to actually want to stick around and play month after month.
The players are steadily beginning to realize it and are becoming more and more vocal about it. This is a good thing.
Regarding the OP, I personally hope the industry soon hits a point where that "bubble" bursts, big publishers decide MMOs aren't a good place for them, they all run and dig their greedy fingers into the social-gaming scene, and get the hell out of MMOs. They've done more than enough damage at this point already.
Then we can get back to having MMORPGs designed by gamers who understand the genre, where it came from and it was intended to be. I'd prefer that over them being designed by market analysts, bean counters and suits who are couldn't shoot their way out of a wet-paper bag with instructions and a starter hole, because they'd be more concerned about how much doing so would affect their bottom line.
MMORPGs have become a cash grab to the big game developers and publishers, and the players are nothing more than open wallets to them.
OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
A company's goal is to make money, more at 11 Jim.
I LOL'd at this. Based on what I frequently read from some gamers, I think they prefer no sub and no cash shop. Just free everthing. What could possibly go wrong?
Yeah, shame on companies and their employees for actually being human and needing a source of income not only to keep the game going (and updated), but also more importantly themselves.
Obviously they should get an extra job so that they can pay for the costs of keeping everything running and every freeloader can play the game for free.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy?
I've already given examples of how they're milking the players in this thread, and in others. Others have as well. If you're going to ignore all those points, while cherry picking only the ones you feel you can argue against, then there's really no point in repeating myself. I've already given examples of why and how they do it.
Go back and read my post(s) if you want your answer. Read others' as well. Some do a much better job of explaining it than I do.
The point isn't that they're milking players. The point is that they're trying very hard to do so at all.
The OP is doing a lot more than just venting frustration at Aion EU. You seem to be cherry-picking their post as well.
OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy?
I think most people who rage about cash shops want -everything- for free, or in some cases they can live with a monthly sub that everyone pays, as long as their neighbor doesn't show up with his new, fancy cash store bought armor skin - which they actually want but don't want to pay for since it would mean eating one donut less =P
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy?
I think most people who rage about cash shops want -everything- for free, or in some cases they can live with a monthly sub that everyone pays, as long as their neighbor doesn't show up with his new, fancy cash store bought armor skin - which they actually want but don't want to pay for since it would mean eating one donut less =P
Any more strawmen where those came from?
Reasons have been given, time and again, in this thread and elsewhere - clearly explained and detailed - as to why people don't like Cash Shops and specifically what they have against them.
Maybe you should actually read what people are saying, instead of attempting to speak for them? Just a thought.
If NCSoft has proven anything it's that they won't keep a game running that doesn't make money (i.e., City of Heroes).
NCSoft's pretty much gone beyond that, from everything the players have dug up, including one of the developers of the former Paragon Studios who said "But we were doing so well!", the game was actually still profitable - it just wasn't profitable enough for NCSoft, which is why in all their press releases you will find no mention of it no longer being financially viable, instead they call it a "realignment of company focus".
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
The point isn't that they're milking players. The point is that they're trying very hard to do so at all.
No, the point is that people have no restraint whatsoever when it comes to their disposable income.
People will waste their disposable income on all kinds of ridiculous shit, from Vodka with gold-flakes in it, to brand-clothing. If the people who pay in the cash-shop wouldn't enjoy their items/products/services they wouldn't pay for them.
Every company in existence is "miliking" you on your desires.
Capitalism is inherrently exploitative, get with the program.
OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy?
I've already given examples of how they're milking the players in this thread, and in others. Others have as well. If you're going to ignore all those points, while cherry picking only the ones you feel you can argue against, then there's really no point in repeating myself. I've already given examples of why and how they do it.
Go back and read my post(s) if you want your answer. Read others' as well. Some do a much better job of explaining it than I do.
The point isn't that they're milking players. The point is that they're trying very hard to do so at all.
The OP is doing a lot more than just venting frustration at Aion EU. You seem to be cherry-picking their post as well.
Your points are irrelevant as there is always choice in the matter and if there is choice the comapnies cannot milk players. Milking customers can only be done when there is no choice in the matter like with utility companies you cannot live without, gas, electricity, water etc.. so you have no argument.
EDIT:
As Adam points out companies just play on your desires to get you spend money, so learn to control yourself and companies lose that control over you, simple really.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Reasons have been given, time and again, in this thread and elsewhere - clearly explained and detailed - as to why people don't like Cash Shops and specifically what they have against them.
Maybe you should actually read what people are saying, instead of attempting to speak for them? Just a thought.
I read them, and you pretty much fall into the example of the neighbor with the fancy armor category.
You also basically told another poster to shut up when he disagreed with the topic, why can't you apply your own logic to the cash shops you have no interest in - don't buy from them.
Your envy is pretty much based on the assumption that you WOULD get that fancy armor too under a P2P system, while it's quite likely it wouldn't even exist then because the extra resources didn't get put into it. But I'm guessing it would be a better solution eh? Since no one would have it then.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Your points are irrelevant as there is always choice in the matter and if there is choice the comapnies cannot milk players. Milking customers can only be done when there is no choice in the matter like with utility companies you cannot live without, gas, electricity, water etc.. so you have no argument.
EDIT:
As Adam points out companies just play on your desires to get you spend money, so learn to control yourself and companies lose that control over you, simple really.
Pretty much that.
Most of the MMO's that I've played had very manageable restrictions (you couldn't play certain classes or races unless you unlocked them) or were without limitations whatsoever and purely made their money from cosmetics in the shop (US) Aion (not the money grubbing abomination GameForge runs).
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by worldalpha Let's hope F2P isn't dead yet. I gotta release my game first!
And good luck with that, by the way!
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
Originally posted by worldalpha Let's hope F2P isn't dead yet. I gotta release my game first!
And good luck with that, by the way!
I doubt this will happen anytime soon, Alpha.
And goodluck indeed!
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by Manestream Not really, if a game comes out thats classed as an F2P, I and i know at least a dozen or so other people do not even look at it (usually stay well clear). If a P2P game goes into F2P mode you know its time to leave or that the days are numbered. They only go into this mode because its been a failure and that they just want to milk the loyal supporters of as much as they can before finally hammering the nail in the coffin and laying it to rest.
So you avoid certain games just because of a label? you are missing out on lots of great and free gaming but as they say ignorance is bliss.
Lots of great AND free? I guess ignorance is bliss if you think many of the sub-par f2p games are "great". If they were great people wouldn't be complaining as much lol. If they were actually great don't you think it would turn around by now? (again, there may be a very few select exceptions).
While I think F2P is in general a bad thing (for the majority of games, there are only a few exceptions), I am tired of seeing these threads too. Getting really old.
Originally posted by Manestream Not really, if a game comes out thats classed as an F2P, I and i know at least a dozen or so other people do not even look at it (usually stay well clear). If a P2P game goes into F2P mode you know its time to leave or that the days are numbered. They only go into this mode because its been a failure and that they just want to milk the loyal supporters of as much as they can before finally hammering the nail in the coffin and laying it to rest.
So you avoid certain games just because of a label? you are missing out on lots of great and free gaming but as they say ignorance is bliss.
Lots of great AND free? I guess ignorance is bliss if you think many of the sub-par f2p games are "great". If they were great people wouldn't be complaining as much lol. If they were actually great don't you think it would turn around by now? (again, there may be a very few select exceptions).
While I think F2P is in general a bad thing (for the majority of games, there are only a few exceptions), I am tired of seeing these threads too. Getting really old.
Well one of the biggest and most popular game of the moment is errr! free2play and thats League Of Legends, DDO is a cracking game, LotRO bloody good game, Allods in its present guise is a very nice game if you like the WoW model and are interesting in massive flying guild Ship PvP , Runes Of Magic is the most played free2play MMO around and again if you like the WoW model, me personally I like Perfect World games and think they all offer a great experience and have very populated servers (though of course this is subjective) and the soon to be released RaiderZ is just incredible for a f2p play title and shows the gap in polish is basically non-existent between AAA titles and f2p, also Age Of Wulin/Wushu is entering closed beta soon and is a classless skill based Wuxia martial arts MMO based in Ancient China, Atlantica a great turn based MMO if you like more strategic slower combat, Twelve Sky 2 is an intense 3 faction PvP MMO. Do you want me to keep going? because I can. Such diversity exists in the P2P world?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Right now there are too many grey areas when talking about "free to play". Not only are there different quality levels of games but many different payment models. By this time next year we should have a better understanding of what an MMO can do financially. Not only should quality games come out that are free, or freemium, but those that converted will see how their model of choice held up.
Regardless I stand in the "take responsibility for your finances" camp. A quality game needs income but you ultimately decide how much your gaming time is worth.
The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.
The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.
It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.
It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.
Point of any game is to provide entertaiment. Difftent people find entertaiment in difftent things and his 'point' is quite common and cash shop indeed hurt it.
The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.
It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.
When you've completed your state of amazement, could you advise us as to the "point of mmos". Thanks in advance.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.
It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.
Point of any game is to provide entertaiment. Difftent people find entertaiment in difftent things and his 'point' is quite common and cash shop indeed hurt it.
You are correct that the point of any game is to provide entertainment and that different things entertain different people, however you are confusing point with playstyle.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And also to attract players to a game that may not have a AAA budget or well known IP to attract Box Sales or paying subs. F2P lowers the barriers and allows for more players to try out the game in an insanely competitive market.
How can it be any lower than a free trial? I think you mean it provides " real NPCs " for the players that purchase from cash shop. Anybody that plays a P2W game and doesn't purchase is simply content for their paying customers.
Even Atari in the 1980's went through a period of crappy games just to make a buck. Not a F2P problem, but I agree it is a problem. Thankfully there are so many choices available, the crappy games don't last anyway.
It is a problem for the P2W business model. Their design limits are one of the reasons why games that implement a cash shop can never be considered AAA quality.
F2P, however, allows for more games to enter the market and brings about more competition and thus will allow for the better games to rise to the top.
This is simply untrue. The beauty of the P2W business model is that it doesn't compete with P2P games. Players can pay if they want to play it like a normal game, or simply not pay and stick with their P2P game.
And also to attract players to a game that may not have a AAA budget or well known IP to attract Box Sales or paying subs. F2P lowers the barriers and allows for more players to try out the game in an insanely competitive market.
How can it be any lower than a free trial? I think you mean it provides " real NPCs " for the players that purchase from cash shop. Anybody that plays a P2W game and doesn't purchase is simply content for their paying customers.
Even Atari in the 1980's went through a period of crappy games just to make a buck. Not a F2P problem, but I agree it is a problem. Thankfully there are so many choices available, the crappy games don't last anyway.
It is a problem for the P2W business model. Their design limits are one of the reasons why games that implement a cash shop can never be considered AAA quality.
F2P, however, allows for more games to enter the market and brings about more competition and thus will allow for the better games to rise to the top.
This is simply untrue. The beauty of the P2W business model is that it doesn't compete with P2P games. Players can pay if they want to play it like a normal game, or simply not pay and stick with their P2P game.
Free trials are often very restricted and the access limited. The barrier for F2P or freemium games is lower.
F2P does not automatically mean P2W.
What was said about F2P bringing more competition is true. They very much compete with P2P games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Yes, the scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.
OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Yeah, shame on companies and their employees for actually being human and needing a source of income not only to keep the game going (and updated), but also more importantly themselves.
Obviously they should get an extra job so that they can pay for the costs of keeping everything running and every freeloader can play the game for free.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I've already given examples of how they're milking the players in this thread, and in others. Others have as well. If you're going to ignore all those points, while cherry picking only the ones you feel you can argue against, then there's really no point in repeating myself. I've already given examples of why and how they do it.
Go back and read my post(s) if you want your answer. Read others' as well. Some do a much better job of explaining it than I do.
The point isn't that they're milking players. The point is that they're trying very hard to do so at all.
The OP is doing a lot more than just venting frustration at Aion EU. You seem to be cherry-picking their post as well.
I think most people who rage about cash shops want -everything- for free, or in some cases they can live with a monthly sub that everyone pays, as long as their neighbor doesn't show up with his new, fancy cash store bought armor skin - which they actually want but don't want to pay for since it would mean eating one donut less =P
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Any more strawmen where those came from?
Reasons have been given, time and again, in this thread and elsewhere - clearly explained and detailed - as to why people don't like Cash Shops and specifically what they have against them.
Maybe you should actually read what people are saying, instead of attempting to speak for them? Just a thought.
NCSoft's pretty much gone beyond that, from everything the players have dug up, including one of the developers of the former Paragon Studios who said "But we were doing so well!", the game was actually still profitable - it just wasn't profitable enough for NCSoft, which is why in all their press releases you will find no mention of it no longer being financially viable, instead they call it a "realignment of company focus".
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
No, the point is that people have no restraint whatsoever when it comes to their disposable income.
People will waste their disposable income on all kinds of ridiculous shit, from Vodka with gold-flakes in it, to brand-clothing. If the people who pay in the cash-shop wouldn't enjoy their items/products/services they wouldn't pay for them.
Every company in existence is "miliking" you on your desires.
Capitalism is inherrently exploitative, get with the program.
Your points are irrelevant as there is always choice in the matter and if there is choice the comapnies cannot milk players. Milking customers can only be done when there is no choice in the matter like with utility companies you cannot live without, gas, electricity, water etc.. so you have no argument.
EDIT:
As Adam points out companies just play on your desires to get you spend money, so learn to control yourself and companies lose that control over you, simple really.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I read them, and you pretty much fall into the example of the neighbor with the fancy armor category.
You also basically told another poster to shut up when he disagreed with the topic, why can't you apply your own logic to the cash shops you have no interest in - don't buy from them.
Your envy is pretty much based on the assumption that you WOULD get that fancy armor too under a P2P system, while it's quite likely it wouldn't even exist then because the extra resources didn't get put into it. But I'm guessing it would be a better solution eh? Since no one would have it then.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Pretty much that.
Most of the MMO's that I've played had very manageable restrictions (you couldn't play certain classes or races unless you unlocked them) or were without limitations whatsoever and purely made their money from cosmetics in the shop (US) Aion (not the money grubbing abomination GameForge runs).
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
And good luck with that, by the way!
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
I doubt this will happen anytime soon, Alpha.
And goodluck indeed!
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Lots of great AND free? I guess ignorance is bliss if you think many of the sub-par f2p games are "great". If they were great people wouldn't be complaining as much lol. If they were actually great don't you think it would turn around by now? (again, there may be a very few select exceptions).
While I think F2P is in general a bad thing (for the majority of games, there are only a few exceptions), I am tired of seeing these threads too. Getting really old.
Well one of the biggest and most popular game of the moment is errr! free2play and thats League Of Legends, DDO is a cracking game, LotRO bloody good game, Allods in its present guise is a very nice game if you like the WoW model and are interesting in massive flying guild Ship PvP , Runes Of Magic is the most played free2play MMO around and again if you like the WoW model, me personally I like Perfect World games and think they all offer a great experience and have very populated servers (though of course this is subjective) and the soon to be released RaiderZ is just incredible for a f2p play title and shows the gap in polish is basically non-existent between AAA titles and f2p, also Age Of Wulin/Wushu is entering closed beta soon and is a classless skill based Wuxia martial arts MMO based in Ancient China, Atlantica a great turn based MMO if you like more strategic slower combat, Twelve Sky 2 is an intense 3 faction PvP MMO. Do you want me to keep going? because I can. Such diversity exists in the P2P world?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Regardless I stand in the "take responsibility for your finances" camp. A quality game needs income but you ultimately decide how much your gaming time is worth.
The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.
It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Point of any game is to provide entertaiment. Difftent people find entertaiment in difftent things and his 'point' is quite common and cash shop indeed hurt it.
When you've completed your state of amazement, could you advise us as to the "point of mmos". Thanks in advance.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You are correct that the point of any game is to provide entertainment and that different things entertain different people, however you are confusing point with playstyle.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your welcome.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky