Your exact words. "They haven't upgraded the experience in ages."
Directly implying that gears, lightweight frames, comfy saddles etc. haven't impacted the experience.
They have upgraded the experience. Significantly. It's only the same old tired formula of two pedals and handlebars to someone who's never ridden a bike nor has any understanding whatsoever of them.
Again, your conclusion that something being either old or new has no direct relation to it's quality is indeed correct. Your anology to show that point however is simply utter nonsense.
Obviously I'm talking about the user experience - what you actually do on a bike. I mean, I know it's fun to nitpick, but come on.
There's a reason we have the saying "like riding a bike". It's like a constant. Seriously, nonsense? Okay.
Your reasoning would be fine if anti WoW proponents wouldn't cry how outdated the core premise of the game is. But they do.
I'm done. Unlike MMOs, my attention span for forum threads is pretty low.
Your exact words. "They haven't upgraded the experience in ages."
Directly implying that gears, lightweight frames, comfy saddles etc. haven't impacted the experience.
They have upgraded the experience. Significantly. It's only the same old tired formula of two pedals and handlebars to someone who's never ridden a bike nor has any understanding whatsoever of them.
Again, your conclusion that something being either old or new has no direct relation to it's quality is indeed correct. Your anology to show that point however is simply utter nonsense.
Obviously I'm talking about the user experience - what you actually do on a bike. I mean, I know it's fun to nitpick, but come on.
You really don't ride bikes much do you?
I've worked for a time at a wildlife camp where they organised mountain bike rides for children.
Children who knew how to ride bikes.
Yet I've always had to explain how exactly the gears on such a bike worked. When to switch gears up. When to switch gears down. That you should only switch a single gear at a time. That you should keep peddling whilst switching gears. That it takes a few seconds to switch gears. etc. etc. etc.
And every time there would be one or more kids whose chain got disconnected whilst switching gears.
Or we could talk about velodrome bicycles. Which don't have breaks. And a single fixed rear gear. And go very, very fast.
Trust me, riding such a thing isn't quite, as you put it, "like riding a bike."
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
As an old saying here says: "on an old rusted bicycle you start learning." In fact it means that, if you cant ride an old rusted bike, you cant ride a newer better one. The fact that still so many people play WoW means that they are still learning how to ride.
Playing: GW2 & Tera. Played: Lotro, Lineage, Lineage2, GW1, WoW, CoHV, Tabula Rasa, AoC, Aion, Rift, Allods and several other f2p but of minor importance
Whilst the OP's conclusion may be valid, there's indeed absolutely nothing wrong with older games like WoW. His reasoning is simply false, just because something old works does not mean that any attempts at improvement or innovation are futile.
So you feel it makes sense to knock people who ride bicycles, just because they could be riding motorcycles?
Because that's the analogy; not that new things aren't good or even great, but the idea that whoever sticks with the old is misguided somehow.
Whoever sticks with the old merely because it's old, as your analogy indicates, is indeed misguided.
Age is utterly irrelevant and mentioning age as either a pro (as you seem to do) or a con (as those you accuse are doing) just shows a lack of understanding.
Some of the newer MMOs aren't bad because they're new. They're bad because of horrible gameplay, bugs, lack of content etc.
Some of the older MMOs aren't good because they're old. They're good because of great gameplay, stability, plentiful content etc.
If you want to ride a bicycle then go ride a freaking bicycle. Don't start preaching on how old it is and how it's worked for ages and how new things don't match up to it's design.
If you want to play WoW then go play freaking WoW. Don't start preaching on how old it is and how it's worked for ages and how new things don't match up to it's design.
hmm, so someone like me who uses a straight razor, boar bristle brush, and soap to shave because i enjoy the experience; is misguided. i guess using my fountian pen that i think is a joy to write with also make me misguided.
it's not that i don't like and use new things; it's that sometimes old things are, to me at least, better. if i still had my old schwinn bike with one speed, springer front forks, tube tires, banana seat, sissy bar, and the brakes that no longer work (lol), you're damn right i'd still ride it! but i got a 10 speed when my parents found out about the brakes, the ten speed was fun too. but the gear shifter never really worked right, though i could stop when i needed to. XD
but i don't live in the dark ages, i upgrade my computer every couple of years. i've got a hd tv, high speed internet, a cell phone, a dvr, etc.
i guess my point is: to each their own. if you like something different from me, great. as long as i can still do the things i like.
Because whilst riding a bike you get to use all your human senses, you can also take your bike where you want to go with it. The experience of bike riding has changed a lot. Compare a bike from the 1920's with a bike for a casual ride today. The riding experience of a bike today is a far more pleasant experience, than if I used a bike from the 1920's. Each time I get on my bike each ride is its own experience on the senses. A MMO cannot change from its mould in which it throws you, only open up new areas with new rides that soon become repetitive.
Whilst the OP's conclusion may be valid, there's indeed absolutely nothing wrong with older games like WoW. His reasoning is simply false, just because something old works does not mean that any attempts at improvement or innovation are futile.
So you feel it makes sense to knock people who ride bicycles, just because they could be riding motorcycles?
Because that's the analogy; not that new things aren't good or even great, but the idea that whoever sticks with the old is misguided somehow.
Whoever sticks with the old merely because it's old, as your analogy indicates, is indeed misguided.
Age is utterly irrelevant and mentioning age as either a pro (as you seem to do) or a con (as those you accuse are doing) just shows a lack of understanding.
Some of the newer MMOs aren't bad because they're new. They're bad because of horrible gameplay, bugs, lack of content etc.
Some of the older MMOs aren't good because they're old. They're good because of great gameplay, stability, plentiful content etc.
If you want to ride a bicycle then go ride a freaking bicycle. Don't start preaching on how old it is and how it's worked for ages and how new things don't match up to it's design.
If you want to play WoW then go play freaking WoW. Don't start preaching on how old it is and how it's worked for ages and how new things don't match up to it's design.
hmm, so someone like me who uses a straight razor, boar bristle brush, and soap to shave because i enjoy the experience; is misguided. i guess using my fountian pen that i think is a joy to write with also make me misguided.
it's not that i don't like and use new things; it's that sometimes old things are, to me at least, better. if i still had my old schwinn bike with one speed, springer front forks, tube tires, banana seat, sissy bar, and the brakes that no longer work (lol), you're damn right i'd still ride it! but i got a 10 speed when my parents found out about the brakes, the ten speed was fun too. but the gear shifter never really worked right, though i could stop when i needed to. XD
but i don't live in the dark ages, i upgrade my computer every couple of years. i've got a hd tv, high speed internet, a cell phone, a dvr, etc.
i guess my point is: to each their own. if you like something different from me, great. as long as i can still do the things i like.
You didn't read my post did you?
Using a straight razor, boar bristle brush and soap to shave because it's old is misguided.
Using a straight razor, boar bristle brush and soap to shave because you enjoy the experience is perfectly fine.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Originally posted by Magiknight Going from WoW to a newer video game is nothing like trading in an old bike. It's more like going from a bike that is one color to a different colored bike. Every MMO since WoW has been so influenced by WoW.
Agree, but i see this only as good thing. When you sit into your car with minor changes in every car nearly everthing is at same place. Just immagine if every car maker with every car would like to be "innovative" or "original". Would be total mess.
Wow interface - imo - is one of the best so far. So have no problem if somebody adopt a lot from them.
Ok, there have been one game that was not at all influenced by wow. FF 14. :-))
FFXIV was heavily influnced by WoW. The pace, short ladder to the top, resting = leveling faster, paying money to repair gear when you die, etc.
People generally get new cars because the one they own is getting old, has problems, or is not big enough. People are buying and playing new MMOs every couple of months and only playing the ones that they own for a couple months. If there is no changes between them, like a car, then why are people buying them? This is a terrible anaolgy. People buy video games for entertainment and MMOs for the social aspect (I would think.....). People buy cars for transportation and to show off. How did you come up with a car anology?
Everyone is riding their own personal bicycle, because it provides a comfortable riding experience. I'm sure everyone is looking for their next comfortable ride--that's what she said--, but newer does not always mean better.
You might be able to go faster or ring a nifty bell, but if the seat of the new bicycle pokes your butt--that's what she said--, you might feel that you're better off riding your old bike.
And in the analogy's case, your old, but comfortable, bike upgrades gradually over time. So, really, you're looking for a new bike that provides the same smooth ride as your old bike but better in most every aspect, which includes the availability of bike paths. Your old bike, and its manufacturer, has had time to design and create many bike paths that are exclusive to it. The manufacturer of the new bike that you are test driving is still new to the business, so it can't possibly spend time and money in R&D, in order to design the new bike, as well as develop just as many bike paths as the manufacturer of your old bike.
If ever there is a manufacturer that is able to design a bike that surpasses your own in every which way as well as provides as many bike paths as the manufacturer of your old bike--who has had years to develop paths specifically for its bike--I'm sure people would switch to the new bike.
UNLESS, they also would like the new bike to be as nostalgic as the old bike. Then you're just screwed.
People got bored of the old and slow transportation method known as walking, and most people gave up on bikes for the new thing called automobiles. The hype's now out for space ships and teleportation.
People nowadays only ride bikes to pretend to be Lance Armstrong and get in the way of people who actually have jobs. The cool way to troll the automobile using crowd is to ride in long lines during about the time people have to go out to get to work. Also, people who ride bikes also must wear a skin tight suit because they believe it imbues them with the power to attract women.
I'm amazed how these people continue to do the same thing year after year. Don't they know that if something's old, it's automatically bad? Only the most hardcore fanboys could stick with something for that long and I find that sad.
I know that you're basically pot-stirring here...
But haven't you ever met one of us old fogies who just looooves one or the other first-gen mmo, pines for it, complains about how no one will ever do it that well, ever again..
And why you ask him why he doesn't still play it, the best game evar, why did you quit...and you get some answer like "dated graphics"?
People actually do, at times, leave old games for some fairly trivial reasons.
But then again, after you've visited the same hobby, night after night, for years; how long can you be expected to hold off ennui? A little thing, after six, eight, ten years is more than enough.
Need a more serious reason, a multi-page anticorporate manifesto? Just drop in at your local message boards, someone will be happy to supply one.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
This was introduced in Dublin, Ireland a couple of years ago, there are small bike stations all over the city for members of the scheme to use, and a very high number of people use them now, in the mornings in the city centre it looks like china did before they switched from bikes to cars
Your analogy is flawed. While the basic design of the bicyle can be seen as perfected since half a century ago, the same cannot be said for mmorpgs. If you want to use a bicycle analogy you should compare WoW (and other modern mmos) to the bicycles made in the first 20 years of inventing the bicycle concept. IE:
Saying that WoW, which was made less than 10 years from the creation of the genre, somehow represents the ultimate possible perfection of it is simply ridiculous.
You assume too much about bicycles, that's mistake #1.
The other, you seem to be forgetting WoW isn't the same as it was 8 years ago. The underlying mechanics of it are - it didn't blast off on a tangent towards something else, but it has evolved (same as the bicycle).
You all seem to have undestood the analogy, but chose to nitpick for some reason (which is fine, that's the beauty and part of the purpose of forums).
The OP should have seen that coming.. The forums are always a constant "battle of the minds" as we all try to prove how intelligent we are while proving your inferiority... Anywho.
The analogy was decent.. you could use so many things in place of that..
Take nascar for example.. Those guys go round and round a track (circle, sometimes more oval or rectangular but still overly rounded) for 300 sometimes 500 times a race.. Fans can go to those races and sit and watch it happen over and over and not complain.. Even when a minor shift happens in order, say like a car makes a move to over take another (which isn't that much important until the final laps because of pits, cautions, restarts, wrecks etc), they remain seated and watching..
To mmo's, we know what to expect with the quests, mob killing etc.. And we do it, over and over and over again.. Yet we get soo bored of it.. A minor shift or change comes through and many times we head for the hills on to the next "race"..
I know, not a perfect analogy, but to be blunt why is repetition acceptable in everything else in life but soo frowned upon in MMO land? Even in other genre's, FPS games for instance still have me shooting things in the face with shotguns, smg's and rifles.. The "Modern Warfare" theme has been played out excessively yet those FPS fans still love their genre (they prove it everytime a new Modern Combat game comes out)...
Comments
Obviously I'm talking about the user experience - what you actually do on a bike. I mean, I know it's fun to nitpick, but come on.
There's a reason we have the saying "like riding a bike". It's like a constant. Seriously, nonsense? Okay.
Your reasoning would be fine if anti WoW proponents wouldn't cry how outdated the core premise of the game is. But they do.
I'm done. Unlike MMOs, my attention span for forum threads is pretty low.
You really don't ride bikes much do you?
I've worked for a time at a wildlife camp where they organised mountain bike rides for children.
Children who knew how to ride bikes.
Yet I've always had to explain how exactly the gears on such a bike worked. When to switch gears up. When to switch gears down. That you should only switch a single gear at a time. That you should keep peddling whilst switching gears. That it takes a few seconds to switch gears. etc. etc. etc.
And every time there would be one or more kids whose chain got disconnected whilst switching gears.
Or we could talk about velodrome bicycles. Which don't have breaks. And a single fixed rear gear. And go very, very fast.
Trust me, riding such a thing isn't quite, as you put it, "like riding a bike."
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Playing: GW2 & Tera.
Played: Lotro, Lineage, Lineage2, GW1, WoW, CoHV, Tabula Rasa, AoC, Aion, Rift, Allods and several other f2p but of minor importance
hmm, so someone like me who uses a straight razor, boar bristle brush, and soap to shave because i enjoy the experience; is misguided. i guess using my fountian pen that i think is a joy to write with also make me misguided.
it's not that i don't like and use new things; it's that sometimes old things are, to me at least, better. if i still had my old schwinn bike with one speed, springer front forks, tube tires, banana seat, sissy bar, and the brakes that no longer work (lol), you're damn right i'd still ride it! but i got a 10 speed when my parents found out about the brakes, the ten speed was fun too. but the gear shifter never really worked right, though i could stop when i needed to. XD
but i don't live in the dark ages, i upgrade my computer every couple of years. i've got a hd tv, high speed internet, a cell phone, a dvr, etc.
i guess my point is: to each their own. if you like something different from me, great. as long as i can still do the things i like.
Because whilst riding a bike you get to use all your human senses, you can also take your bike where you want to go with it. The experience of bike riding has changed a lot. Compare a bike from the 1920's with a bike for a casual ride today. The riding experience of a bike today is a far more pleasant experience, than if I used a bike from the 1920's. Each time I get on my bike each ride is its own experience on the senses. A MMO cannot change from its mould in which it throws you, only open up new areas with new rides that soon become repetitive.
You didn't read my post did you?
Using a straight razor, boar bristle brush and soap to shave because it's old is misguided.
Using a straight razor, boar bristle brush and soap to shave because you enjoy the experience is perfectly fine.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
FFXIV was heavily influnced by WoW. The pace, short ladder to the top, resting = leveling faster, paying money to repair gear when you die, etc.
People generally get new cars because the one they own is getting old, has problems, or is not big enough. People are buying and playing new MMOs every couple of months and only playing the ones that they own for a couple months. If there is no changes between them, like a car, then why are people buying them? This is a terrible anaolgy. People buy video games for entertainment and MMOs for the social aspect (I would think.....). People buy cars for transportation and to show off. How did you come up with a car anology?
Everyone is riding their own personal bicycle, because it provides a comfortable riding experience. I'm sure everyone is looking for their next comfortable ride--that's what she said--, but newer does not always mean better.
You might be able to go faster or ring a nifty bell, but if the seat of the new bicycle pokes your butt--that's what she said--, you might feel that you're better off riding your old bike.
And in the analogy's case, your old, but comfortable, bike upgrades gradually over time. So, really, you're looking for a new bike that provides the same smooth ride as your old bike but better in most every aspect, which includes the availability of bike paths. Your old bike, and its manufacturer, has had time to design and create many bike paths that are exclusive to it. The manufacturer of the new bike that you are test driving is still new to the business, so it can't possibly spend time and money in R&D, in order to design the new bike, as well as develop just as many bike paths as the manufacturer of your old bike.
If ever there is a manufacturer that is able to design a bike that surpasses your own in every which way as well as provides as many bike paths as the manufacturer of your old bike--who has had years to develop paths specifically for its bike--I'm sure people would switch to the new bike.
UNLESS, they also would like the new bike to be as nostalgic as the old bike. Then you're just screwed.
People got bored of the old and slow transportation method known as walking, and most people gave up on bikes for the new thing called automobiles. The hype's now out for space ships and teleportation.
People nowadays only ride bikes to pretend to be Lance Armstrong and get in the way of people who actually have jobs. The cool way to troll the automobile using crowd is to ride in long lines during about the time people have to go out to get to work. Also, people who ride bikes also must wear a skin tight suit because they believe it imbues them with the power to attract women.
Lol, brilliant - this is so true.
I know that you're basically pot-stirring here...
But haven't you ever met one of us old fogies who just looooves one or the other first-gen mmo, pines for it, complains about how no one will ever do it that well, ever again..
And why you ask him why he doesn't still play it, the best game evar, why did you quit...and you get some answer like "dated graphics"?
People actually do, at times, leave old games for some fairly trivial reasons.
But then again, after you've visited the same hobby, night after night, for years; how long can you be expected to hold off ennui? A little thing, after six, eight, ten years is more than enough.
Need a more serious reason, a multi-page anticorporate manifesto? Just drop in at your local message boards, someone will be happy to supply one.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
http://www.dublinbikes.ie/
This was introduced in Dublin, Ireland a couple of years ago, there are small bike stations all over the city for members of the scheme to use, and a very high number of people use them now, in the mornings in the city centre it looks like china did before they switched from bikes to cars
The OP should have seen that coming.. The forums are always a constant "battle of the minds" as we all try to prove how intelligent we are while proving your inferiority... Anywho.
The analogy was decent.. you could use so many things in place of that..
Take nascar for example.. Those guys go round and round a track (circle, sometimes more oval or rectangular but still overly rounded) for 300 sometimes 500 times a race.. Fans can go to those races and sit and watch it happen over and over and not complain.. Even when a minor shift happens in order, say like a car makes a move to over take another (which isn't that much important until the final laps because of pits, cautions, restarts, wrecks etc), they remain seated and watching..
To mmo's, we know what to expect with the quests, mob killing etc.. And we do it, over and over and over again.. Yet we get soo bored of it.. A minor shift or change comes through and many times we head for the hills on to the next "race"..
I know, not a perfect analogy, but to be blunt why is repetition acceptable in everything else in life but soo frowned upon in MMO land? Even in other genre's, FPS games for instance still have me shooting things in the face with shotguns, smg's and rifles.. The "Modern Warfare" theme has been played out excessively yet those FPS fans still love their genre (they prove it everytime a new Modern Combat game comes out)...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Games currently playing:
------------------------
Pro Evolution Soccer
World of Warcraft
Light of Nova
League of Legends